Either way, I think you are looking to pick a fight with me bizzy, not FCG. I couldnt be bothered though. You think Wizards is doing good things. I think them doing next to nothing is about the best we can expect. You think they must now be happy with the format, I think they just want to higher view numbers Modern brings.
In the end you have no data (until they say 'oh yes we just love modern now!') and neither do I. :]
Either way, I think you are looking to pick a fight with me bizzy, not FCG. I couldnt be bothered though. You think Wizards is doing good things. I think them doing next to nothing is about the best we can expect. You think they must now be happy with the format, I think they just want to higher view numbers Modern brings.
In the end you have no data (until they say 'oh yes we just love modern now!') and neither do I. :]
No that isn't my opinion I have a opinion more in line with the Rule of the Golden Middle not the Rule of Excluded Middle, some stuff they do I agree with some stuff I disagree with, things are often good and bad. I generally think we have to defer to things they do based on their information about things like prevalence of x or y etc.. because they have perfect knowledge and we have never had that so IMO we have to assume that the perfect data sets they have reveal things that might not be shown with the far narrower information we have ever had access to.
I would say that your claim is far more speculative than mine no the PT issue, simply because we know that WotC had pretty consistently in the past disliked Modern as a PT format and have given reasons for why they feel this way, to me a seemingly unsolicited return to the format should show that something has changed in the format that caused them to reevaluate their previous opinion and change it. So we actually do have some "data" ( I would prefer Proclamations regarding it as I don't think "data" suits what are essentially rhetorical justifications) that "data" would be previous statements made regarding why they don't like Modern as a PT format.
They like modern because people watch it. You think they don't notice huge drops when events go from modern to standard? Wotc misses a lot but some things kinda smack you in the face.
Free free then, to bask in your sense of superior reasoning.
Claiming the Modern PT was unsolicited is comical however, I guess we can agree to disagree on that one too. :]
You think they have perfect knowledge, I think they have bias and corporate goals. /shrug
I don't feel as though I have a superior sense of reasoning, I simply take offense to you telling me what my line of reasoning is. To me that is very presumptuous on your part and I make every effort to never assume what line of reasoning another person takes to draw their conclusions unless they explicitly state what line they took.
To my knowledge it hasn't had a large vocal group of players asking for it to return which is why I prefaced my statement with "seemingly", for the most part I was under the impression that most players had been happier with the No PT = lighter ban hammerings as WotC did explicitly stated that with Modern as a PT format it will be more prone to needing bannings. Again I used the word seemingly which means that this is the impression that I had given the facts regarding it, though I could be very wrong might be a whole reddit devoted to pestering them about it and I am simply not aware of it.
I wouldn't disagree that they have corporate goals as they are a capitalist enterprise and have to turn a profit to justify their existence, so sure that "bias" has to exist by their very nature. I think they have perfect knowledge because every single sanctioned event has to have its results reported to them, plus they have access to every single Online events results so as far as information regarding the state of any given meta-game they do have perfect knowledge. That doesn't mean I think they always make perfect decisions based on this knowledge as they are human and are by default prone to error but it seems pretty "bias" on your part to deny that they have the information I was referring too.
Well now that the PT is back for the format, what do people predict the top 8/16 will look like given the current state of the format? Would be interesting to get some predictions we can look back on.
But you can't deny land destruction in modern is incredibly bad
We aren't seeing all these big mana decks in the meta for no reason, you have to go underneath them very quickly with fast aggro (which is nearly dead outside of burn and affinity) or fast combo
Fair decks honestly have no real answer to big mana, rejection is one of the primary reasons blue isn't utterly crushed now.
fair decks like jund would have an easier time in this format if we had less big mana. It's not like it's affinity burn merfolk and storm that are keeping them down...
Currently valakut and etron are top tier with tron almost tier 1 and bant eldrazi tier 2.
So I'm not suprised with why jund is tier 3 and the most successful shadowless urx deck has 8 maindeck big mana hate cards.
It's easy to pick apart things when you add qualifiers like "shadowless." Actually though the most successful "shadowless" URx deck runs no maindeck big mana hate cards and wins via grapeshot.
It's not like we saw that many less bans anyway without a pt.
Idk haven't the ban's since then mostly been to stop degenerate things? like Eye, GGT, Probe? Seems like when the PT is around we get more but I don't know. Number cruncher's should hop on that and see how more frequently they do or do not occur with as compared to without. I'm not personally afforded the time to crunch the numbers on something like that but I know plenty of guys in this forum have their Excel's waiting to do some work.
It's not like we saw that many less bans anyway without a pt.
Exactly this. People forget that Bloodbraid Elf, Golgari GraveTroll and Gitaxian Probe were banned without a Modern PT on the horizon. To me, the ban schedule is the same and they will ban what they deem bannable regardless of the Modern PT. It will just give the "shake-up" status to whatever they ban next.
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Modern:WU WU Control | WBG Abzan Company Frontier:UBR Grixis Control | BRG Jund Delirium
Heh both? Unlike Wizards I'm of the opinion more data gives better discussion.
Sorry but that isn't what they claimed the data restriction was about, has nothing to do with "better discussions" this is some kinda crazy attitude that people have towards WotC every thing they do sucks, except you know producing the game we all play.
For the most part, I love what Wizards has done. They created a long standing game that has millions of followers. They have allowed us to play ---- for so long in Modern. They have allowed Affinity, Pod, Bloom, and many other decks for some periods of time and I thank them for that. It also doesn't mean that I'm not going to call them out on something that I don't agree with.
Admittedly a lot of the bannings that have been done are justified and ended up being very good. But there's still some I don't agree with and I think that many people can agree that their handling of Modern has been less than stellar, even if it is a format that we all have enjoyed for 1-6 years.
The bottom line - Wizards of the Coast has done a very good job overall.
Thats all fine and dandy, I was being critical of your statement in the first Post that portrayed WotC as geared towards something that it had nothing to do with which fallows the trend of "WotC are stupid, don't understand the game, etc..." just add essentially whatever pejorative claim you want. In the case of your post it is that WotC is in opposition to "better discussion" which had nothing to do with their changes regarding them no longer sharing their information with us in the way they had previously.
I personally have been amused reading all of the fear around the return of the Modern PT, just a few days ago people complaining that they don't pay enough attention to the format and suddenly now that it will certainly receive a much higher profile level of attention people are what? still complaining.
I've enjoyed Modern since they created the format with a small window of the Eldrazi Winter in which every meta-game offered something interesting.
I personally think that the return of the Modern PT shows that WotC is happier with the Format than it was when it decided to remove it from the PT all together.
I felt the same way. I just wanted to clarify that there are people that give Wizards their due. Not every single person is a complainer and believes that everything they've done is a mistake. Some people believe that many players are overly critical of Wizards, but players actually getting out and playing Modern proves that they agree with at least something that Wizards has offered in Modern, even if they don't agree with every decision as well.
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
I compared a turn 3 Coco and Karn to a turn 4 BBE because Coco decks are designed to play Coco on turn 3 and Tron decks are designed to play Karn on turn 3 whereas Jund would play BBE on turn 4.
Come on now, lets stop pretending that Jund wasn't able to cast BBE on turn 3 within a consistent matter. Even before return to ravnica, Jund was using Birds of paradise in order to cast BBE on turn 3. I think youre underestimating just how good Jund was back when BBE was banned.
And BBE isn't just good in any list. Wizards specifically banned it because they wanted to ban a card that saw a lot of play in Jund and not other decks. That, along with DRS being in standard is the reason DRS didn't get the ban, even though DRS was clearly stronger and clearly the card that made Jund too powerful, which is why they still had to ban t later.
You really think decks like dredge, Scapeshift, DS Jund, and living end would play BBE?
I think that if BBE was never unbanned, the format would look completely different. I just think that cascade is that powerful of an ability.
I would like to see every ban card get unban just to see what the format would really look like. A lot of the cards were ban so early in the creation of the format, so who knows. Did the unban of Bitterblossom hurt the format? has Ancestral visions broke the format? No!
No, but the unbanning of Hypergenesis and Cloudpost would obliterate the format. If this is what you really want, it sounds like you would prefer legacy as a format.
I've been playing Jund since the start of Modern and I've never come across a list running Birds. It never happened, at least not competitively.
On a more on topic note. Those saying that BBE wouldn't see play are kidding themselves. BBE is strong against Big mana heavy metas which was the main reason why Jund has been having issues lately. Alternatively, those suggesting that BBE is broken are also kidding themselves. If ever there were a time to unban a card to help a deck out it's now and it's BBE. Jund Midrange is at the bottom of Tier 3, it needs help.
Birds of Paradise was never played in Jund globally. That may have been a local thing. How do I know? I've been battling Jund since the beginning (actually ever since Standard). It was fun interacting with Bloodbraid Elf, a super powerful card, but certainly not a game ender.
So, talking about unbanning everything and seeing how it works... No Banned-List Modern is a thing.
So, if we start with a scale where Modern Affinity as it is now is a 1, Affinity without a banned list might be a 1.3.
Cloudpost is a 5. Hypergenesis is 9. Belcher, which would also become playable is probably also a 5.
The aggro decks would definitely be better than they are now, and in No Banned List Modern they aren't bad. But they're bringing a gun to a nuclear intercontinental ballistic missile fight against Hypergenesis, Cloudpost, Belcher, and Blazing Shoal Infect.
I've seen the results of some of these tournaments and Affinity had been one of the top decks. Some of the fair GBx decks and Pyro Clamp decks also really get it done. Now I know these formats haven't really been tested much, so there's not much to the results. But I still feel like Affinity would be one of the most powerful decks. I do feel like Eldrazi with Eye is just THE best deck hands down. It's tough to envision any deck beating that.
Huhh, it either must have been a local thing or I may be getting mixed up. I even looked at a couple top lists around 2012 and I didnt see birds. I swore I remember seeing it 4-5 years ago before Deathrite got printed. My bad, Ill take that particular statement back then.
Overall though, I agree with your statement Foodchains, its a superpowerful card that provides tremendous value, but is not a game ender. Im just sick of people treating the card like its a subpar card.
One way or another, Big mana/Eldrazi would immediately take over the format, and that is a format that I would rather not expirience.
Would people think the best thing WotC have done for modern in the last few years is increasing the rate at which modern cards are reprinted or new cards are of a level to enter the format?
There have also been a pretty good number of creature cards printed that have impacted modern lately (even from sets some people don't like) eg Eidolon of the Great Revel, eldrazi, cycling creatures, Thraben Inspector.
The increasing number/introduction of certain lands - shocks, fetches and fastlands.
There is even potentially good answers in the pipeline (if leaked cards can be believed) and Fatal Push is obviously a slam dunk.
Most of those Tweets get buried and are never seen again. This one got big front page coverage. Until Wizards acts otherwise, I'll believe them and stay worry-free.
No shake up bans but that doesn't mean they won't come up with a "legit" reason to ban something. I'll believe it when we make it to the pt without a ban. Obviously they don't plan on it because they don't plan that far in advance imo.
Huhh, it either must have been a local thing or I may be getting mixed up. I even looked at a couple top lists around 2012 and I didnt see birds. I swore I remember seeing it 4-5 years ago before Deathrite got printed. My bad, Ill take that particular statement back then.
Overall though, I agree with your statement Foodchains, its a superpowerful card that provides tremendous value, but is not a game ender. Im just sick of people treating the card like its a subpar card.
I think the card is very comparable to Collected Company. The mana cost is the same, the variance is similar, and the deck construction built has to be somewhat built around the card. This is the type of card that Wizards loves for Modern - a card that has variance and can hit anything from 1 Birds of Paradise to 2 Knight of the Reliquary.
I know we've all heard it before, but it's certainly true - Bloodbraid Elf died for Deathrite Shaman's sins. I certainly don't mind seeing Jund taken down a notch, but Bloodbraid Elf is not a problem in today's Modern, even less so now that Eldrazi Tron is also a deck.
*Don't get me wrong. Bloodbraid Elf can enable some pretty sick plays like a turn 4 BBE into Liliana of the Veil. But there are also plays like Bloodbraid Elf on an empty board into creature removal or Bloodbraid Elf into Thoughtseize/IoK with your opponent hellbent. Bloodbraid Elf doesn't get you out of most situations that E Tron or Grixis Shadow would have you in by that turn. If you do decide to play mana dorks, that's fine. Come to terms that you will cascade into mana dorks some number of the time.
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
Huhh, it either must have been a local thing or I may be getting mixed up. I even looked at a couple top lists around 2012 and I didnt see birds. I swore I remember seeing it 4-5 years ago before Deathrite got printed. My bad, Ill take that particular statement back then.
Overall though, I agree with your statement Foodchains, its a superpowerful card that provides tremendous value, but is not a game ender. Im just sick of people treating the card like its a subpar card.
I think the card is very comparable to Collected Company. The mana cost is the same, the variance is similar, and the deck construction built has to be somewhat built around the card. This is the type of card that Wizards loves for Modern - a card that has variance and can hit anything from 1 Birds of Paradise to 2 Knight of the Reliquary.
I know we've all heard it before, but it's certainly true - Bloodbraid Elf died for Deathrite Shaman's sins. I certainly don't mind seeing Jund taken down a notch, but Bloodbraid Elf is not a problem in today's Modern, even less so now that Eldrazi Tron is also a deck.
*Don't get me wrong. Bloodbraid Elf can enable some pretty sick plays like a turn 4 BBE into Liliana of the Veil. But there are also plays like Bloodbraid Elf on an empty board into creature removal or Bloodbraid Elf into Thoughtseize/IoK with your opponent hellbent. Bloodbraid Elf doesn't get you out of most situations that E Tron or Grixis Shadow would have you in by that turn. If you do decide to play mana dorks, that's fine. Come to terms that you will cascade into mana dorks some number of the time.
I agree with most of what you said. I wasn't trying to avicate BBE to stay on the banlist. I'm just sick of people on here and in my LGS pretending the BBE's power level is low.
I don't like Bloodbraid Elf simply because I don't like cascade as a mechanic, but I don't think it'd be a problem at all in the current Modern environment.
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Well, I can saw a woman in two, but you won't wanna look in the box when I'm through.
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Either way, I think you are looking to pick a fight with me bizzy, not FCG. I couldnt be bothered though. You think Wizards is doing good things. I think them doing next to nothing is about the best we can expect. You think they must now be happy with the format, I think they just want to higher view numbers Modern brings.
In the end you have no data (until they say 'oh yes we just love modern now!') and neither do I. :]
Spirits
No that isn't my opinion I have a opinion more in line with the Rule of the Golden Middle not the Rule of Excluded Middle, some stuff they do I agree with some stuff I disagree with, things are often good and bad. I generally think we have to defer to things they do based on their information about things like prevalence of x or y etc.. because they have perfect knowledge and we have never had that so IMO we have to assume that the perfect data sets they have reveal things that might not be shown with the far narrower information we have ever had access to.
I would say that your claim is far more speculative than mine no the PT issue, simply because we know that WotC had pretty consistently in the past disliked Modern as a PT format and have given reasons for why they feel this way, to me a seemingly unsolicited return to the format should show that something has changed in the format that caused them to reevaluate their previous opinion and change it. So we actually do have some "data" ( I would prefer Proclamations regarding it as I don't think "data" suits what are essentially rhetorical justifications) that "data" would be previous statements made regarding why they don't like Modern as a PT format.
Claiming the Modern PT was unsolicited is comical however, I guess we can agree to disagree on that one too. :]
You think they have perfect knowledge, I think they have bias and corporate goals. /shrug
Spirits
Spirits
This is the best we've had so far.
https://twitter.com/maro254/status/887723609199792128
Legacy - LED Dredge, ANT & WDnT
I don't feel as though I have a superior sense of reasoning, I simply take offense to you telling me what my line of reasoning is. To me that is very presumptuous on your part and I make every effort to never assume what line of reasoning another person takes to draw their conclusions unless they explicitly state what line they took.
To my knowledge it hasn't had a large vocal group of players asking for it to return which is why I prefaced my statement with "seemingly", for the most part I was under the impression that most players had been happier with the No PT = lighter ban hammerings as WotC did explicitly stated that with Modern as a PT format it will be more prone to needing bannings. Again I used the word seemingly which means that this is the impression that I had given the facts regarding it, though I could be very wrong might be a whole reddit devoted to pestering them about it and I am simply not aware of it.
I wouldn't disagree that they have corporate goals as they are a capitalist enterprise and have to turn a profit to justify their existence, so sure that "bias" has to exist by their very nature. I think they have perfect knowledge because every single sanctioned event has to have its results reported to them, plus they have access to every single Online events results so as far as information regarding the state of any given meta-game they do have perfect knowledge. That doesn't mean I think they always make perfect decisions based on this knowledge as they are human and are by default prone to error but it seems pretty "bias" on your part to deny that they have the information I was referring too.
I'm not going to continue this, you are arguing to argue.
Spirits
right sure you didn't interject into it at all... it was me telling you what you think sure....
decks playing:
none
Idk haven't the ban's since then mostly been to stop degenerate things? like Eye, GGT, Probe? Seems like when the PT is around we get more but I don't know. Number cruncher's should hop on that and see how more frequently they do or do not occur with as compared to without. I'm not personally afforded the time to crunch the numbers on something like that but I know plenty of guys in this forum have their Excel's waiting to do some work.
Frontier: UBR Grixis Control | BRG Jund Delirium
I felt the same way. I just wanted to clarify that there are people that give Wizards their due. Not every single person is a complainer and believes that everything they've done is a mistake. Some people believe that many players are overly critical of Wizards, but players actually getting out and playing Modern proves that they agree with at least something that Wizards has offered in Modern, even if they don't agree with every decision as well.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)Huhh, it either must have been a local thing or I may be getting mixed up. I even looked at a couple top lists around 2012 and I didnt see birds. I swore I remember seeing it 4-5 years ago before Deathrite got printed. My bad, Ill take that particular statement back then.
Overall though, I agree with your statement Foodchains, its a superpowerful card that provides tremendous value, but is not a game ender. Im just sick of people treating the card like its a subpar card.
One way or another, Big mana/Eldrazi would immediately take over the format, and that is a format that I would rather not expirience.
There have also been a pretty good number of creature cards printed that have impacted modern lately (even from sets some people don't like) eg Eidolon of the Great Revel, eldrazi, cycling creatures, Thraben Inspector.
The increasing number/introduction of certain lands - shocks, fetches and fastlands.
There is even potentially good answers in the pipeline (if leaked cards can be believed) and Fatal Push is obviously a slam dunk.
Legacy - LED Dredge, ANT & WDnT
http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/daily-magic-update/update-2017-07-20
Most of those Tweets get buried and are never seen again. This one got big front page coverage. Until Wizards acts otherwise, I'll believe them and stay worry-free.
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/780304-mtg-modern-competitive-paper-meta-analysis-and
I think the card is very comparable to Collected Company. The mana cost is the same, the variance is similar, and the deck construction built has to be somewhat built around the card. This is the type of card that Wizards loves for Modern - a card that has variance and can hit anything from 1 Birds of Paradise to 2 Knight of the Reliquary.
I know we've all heard it before, but it's certainly true - Bloodbraid Elf died for Deathrite Shaman's sins. I certainly don't mind seeing Jund taken down a notch, but Bloodbraid Elf is not a problem in today's Modern, even less so now that Eldrazi Tron is also a deck.
*Don't get me wrong. Bloodbraid Elf can enable some pretty sick plays like a turn 4 BBE into Liliana of the Veil. But there are also plays like Bloodbraid Elf on an empty board into creature removal or Bloodbraid Elf into Thoughtseize/IoK with your opponent hellbent. Bloodbraid Elf doesn't get you out of most situations that E Tron or Grixis Shadow would have you in by that turn. If you do decide to play mana dorks, that's fine. Come to terms that you will cascade into mana dorks some number of the time.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)I agree with most of what you said. I wasn't trying to avicate BBE to stay on the banlist. I'm just sick of people on here and in my LGS pretending the BBE's power level is low.