If Urza lands were legendary, all forms of Tron would die on the spot, you're literally saying it's ok for a deck to have 9 dead cards after they draw the initial one.
That's not counting the times when relics/chalice is bad, or watching as a endbringer, Karn or All is dust stranded in hand
You guys absolutely no not understand the decks on a fundamental, and they are by no means complicated nuances to understand, it's coming off as ignorant or dishonest.
E-Tron would not be played if it were a legendary land. Period.
You sure do like to say that people just don't understand decks when they disagree with you. Lots of decks can have dead cards after certain in game criteria has been met
He's right. There are a few people who post of a lot of strong opinions in the thread who clearly don't really understand what's going on with Modern decks or the Modern meta. Disagreeing with these people isn't the same as disagreeing with someone who knows what they are talking about but has a difference of opinion. There are a few people who really should just step back and think a bit more deeply before posting a lot of nonsense, cluttering up the thread, and starting useless arguments... in other words, trolling.
Not trying to stifle discussion, but rather increase the quality of discussion.
God does this sound condescending.
Your own data shows a significant uptick for E-Tron in the past few months and when I say ET should be considered for banning you're telling me I'm trolling?
It's good of you to post that data but deciding who gets to take what away from said data is way out of line.
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In my dream, the world had suffered a terrible disaster. A black haze shut out the sun, and the darkness was alive with the moans and screams of wounded people. Suddenly, a small light glowed. A candle flickered into life, symbol of hope for millions. A single tiny candle, shining in the ugly dark. I laughed and blew it out.
Many thanks to HotP Studios. Special thanks to DNC for this great sig.
Eye of Ugin is so incredibly busted though that it is well worth the risk to run 3-4 of them. It made 8 mana in a turn sometimes. Sometimes more. The card was broken.
And sure, Valakut is a flavor fail. But flavor shouldn't affect gameplay. As for tron lands, I haven't read those old novels but the multiple different arts and them being commons suggest there may be multiples.
Fair enough. The Urza lands not being legendary I can understand
If Urza lands were legendary, all forms of Tron would die on the spot, you're literally saying it's ok for a deck to have 9 dead cards after they draw the initial one.
That's not counting the times when relics/chalice is bad, or watching as a endbringer, Karn or All is dust stranded in hand
You guys absolutely no not understand the decks on a fundamental, and they are by no means complicated nuances to understand, it's coming off as ignorant or dishonest.
E-Tron would not be played if it were a legendary land. Period.
You sure do like to say that people just don't understand decks when they disagree with you. Lots of decks can have dead cards after certain in game criteria has been met
He's right. There are a few people who post of a lot of strong opinions in the thread who clearly don't really understand what's going on with Modern decks or the Modern meta. Disagreeing with these people isn't the same as disagreeing with someone who knows what they are talking about but has a difference of opinion. There are a few people who really should just step back and think a bit more deeply before posting a lot of nonsense, cluttering up the thread, and starting useless arguments... in other words, trolling.
Not trying to stifle discussion, but rather increase the quality of discussion.
God does this sound condescending.
Your own data shows a significant uptick for E-Tron in the past few months and when I say ET should be considered for banning you're telling me I'm trolling?
It's good of you to post that data but deciding who gets to take what away from said data is way out of line.
According to his data... it's grown to a whopping 7% of the field! 7% is pretty tame, considering Grixis Shadow occupied over 10% meta share for a while. The deck certainly isn't breaking any of the loose terms that WotC stated ages ago for the format. It hasn't taken down enough events to be a concern, its metashare is at a healthy % and it certainly isn't winning games before turn 4 consistently.
Now, if it starts monopolizing spots in top 8's over the next few big events or starts commanding a large metashare, then there might be cause for realistic ban talk on EldraziTron decks. Until those things start happening, serious talk of banning EldraziTron pieces comes off as merely "I don't like this deck, so it shouldn't exist," which may not be your intention, but that's a bit how it's perceived.
I'm not even talking about people having the opinion that Temple should be banned. If that's your opinion and you can articulate why it should be banned, whatever.
I'm talking about stuff like people saying Eldrazi Tron would still be a thing if Temple and/or Tron were banned.
Or Drekavac's little doozy stating that decks would use SFM would still get rolled by Eldrazi Tron, when in fact the most obvious home for SFM is D&T, a deck that's a strong favorite vs ET.
Or people who still complain about the unfairness of Tron, a deck that hovers around 2% meta share and is about the 16th best deck in Modern.
I could go on, but everyone knows what I'm talking about. Drekavac also mentioned my data, which clearly shows that Eldrazi Tron is the 3rd best deck in Modern. There are two decks clearly better, and every other deck is clearly worse. It's the 3rd best deck, period. Might that change in the future? Yeah, it might. But we live in the now.
Your own data shows a significant uptick for E-Tron in the past few months and when I say ET should be considered for banning you're telling me I'm trolling?
I wouldn't say you are trolling, but this is exactly why you and many others are wrong: the total ignorance or disregard for the format's known rules and guidelines while discussing the banlist. Eldrazi Tron going up in the overall metagame doesn't mean anything as long as it doesn't translate to GPs. Eldrazi Tron has what? 1 GP Top8? Not even close to getting banned. I'd suggest going back to the bans of BBE, DRS, Pod, Twin and Eye.
Like Ulamog here said, people should step back and really consider their posts and arguments. All of us. Else the thread devolves into bans to kill decks we dislike, improve our own decks, bring back our decks to the format and "mud-slinging"... I guess it always ends up happening, wonder why. The quality of the posts would increase if we just stop disregarding what we know, which isn't a lot to begin with.
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Modern:WU WU Control | WBG Abzan Company Frontier:UBR Grixis Control | BRG Jund Delirium
Is betting on future metas, banning and unbanning allowed?
Certainly not.
…but we’ve seen trends like this before. Jund DS saw a pretty meteoric rise after it did well. People clamored for a ban, to see the meta push it down and it evolved into Grixis DS. That deck saw a huge uptick as well, because it seemed like “the best deck in the format”. Now look. Grixis DS shares are quickly dropping and EldraziTron is rising.
Just looking at that sort of history, it’s difficult to agree with the preemptive banmania exhibited by people when it comes to anything from those decks until we see that the meta cannot adapt to the deck.
Grixis is just going from the best deck, to just another really great deck.
Eldrazi Tron is hugely weak to an entire archetype (creature aggro), while being weak to spell based, non graveyard combo, the deck can be exploited and can't oppress the format, not without new colorless cards to combat those issues.
Drevac, you're not being reasonable, and not throwing out anything factual. The deck is 7% of the meta at most. A significant uptick conversion can't even begin until it hits 12%, and even 12% isn't alarming.
Good thing this thread is a minority in the game, it'd be ran into the ground everytime decks did well in tournaments.
DNT beating up on Grixis Shadow and E-Tron is fine with me, especially with SFM.
I really think DNT and BBE would be great to unban this month
I think Jund continues to be a garbage deck without BBE, and I'm not sure BBE can really catapult the deck back to the top.
I think BBE really needs to come off now, the card is severely not dangerous anymore.
I'd like to see DNT wreck those decks, too. Really curious if we see a BBE unban, if it doesn't happen between now and the pro-tour, I'm absolutely certain it stay permeantely be banned.
Well that's a shame that we can't just have some betting system in place to diffuse these arguments. I'm hoping for a bbe and sfm unban. It seems silly to have those cards banned when we have a mox and a sol land be active in tier 1 decks
DnT would not be the home for Stoneforge, by the by. Not in its current form, at least.
The deck is literally built around using Leonin Arbiter to turn Ghost Quarter into Strip Mine, and as it turns out, Leonin Arbiter is a symmetrical effect. A 2 drop that searches up Batterskull and puts it into play next turn is a lot better than a 4 drop that searches up Batterskull and can put it into play next turn.
That's not to say that the deck couldn't adjust - it could run Aven Mindcensor instead of Leonin Arbiter, for example. But assuming that Stoneforge Mystic would be a slam-dunk in Death and Taxes does kind of ignore the fact that the deck is almost entirely built around making it hard for both players to search their libraries.
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Well, I can saw a woman in two, but you won't wanna look in the box when I'm through.
I also find it strange that the tension between Stoneforge Mystic and DnT's build-around Leonin Arbiter is being ignored. There is a non-trivial chance SFM isn't good enough to see play in DnT because of the Leonin arbiter issue, and modern nexus revealed that the only thing it did for abzan was improve the burn matchup at a slight cost to almost every other matchup. UW control then is the most likely place for the card, which sounds like a positive thing to me. I'm biased for sure, but does UW control featuring SFM sound like it's going to need to be banned?
As I said in the announcement poll and have said now since I tested it about 6 months ago: there is a non-trivial chance that Stoneforge Mystic isn't good enough to see wide play. By that, I mean that SFM is most likely to find a home in a tier 2-3 deck at best. It just doesn't do enough without Umezawa's Jitte to be a real house.
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Modern Decks
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG
I also find it strange that the tension between Stoneforge Mystic and DnT's build-around Leonin Arbiter is being ignored. There is a non-trivial chance SFM isn't good enough to see play in DnT because of the Leonin arbiter issue, and modern nexus revealed that the only thing it did for abzan was improve the burn matchup at a slight cost to almost every other matchup. UW control then is the most likely place for the card, which sounds like a positive thing to me. I'm biased for sure, but does UW control featuring SFM sound like it's going to need to be banned?
As I said in the announcement poll and have said now since I tested it about 6 months ago: there is a non-trivial chance that Stoneforge Mystic isn't good enough to see wide play. By that, I mean that SFM is most likely to find a home in a tier 2-3 deck at best. It just doesn't do enough without Umezawa's Jitte to be a real house.
My feeling is that it's a really strong card that would see play in Modern, but you never really know about unbans though until the community at large has their way with it. The wisdom of the crowd will prove it out one way or another. I don't think any individual can solve such a complex puzzle in their head or even through testing.
SFM vs Arbiter in the main deck of D&T would be a meta call IMHO. Arbiter can be nice, but it's a Grizzly Bears in a lot of situations. Arbiter could still be available in the side, swap for SFM in its best value matchups, or vice versa. I have a lot of the pieces for D&T but haven't finished it. I'd definitely finish a SFM version if it was unbanned, already have my playset ready to go...
DnT would not be the home for Stoneforge, by the by. Not in its current form, at least.
The deck is literally built around using Leonin Arbiter to turn Ghost Quarter into Strip Mine, and as it turns out, Leonin Arbiter is a symmetrical effect. A 2 drop that searches up Batterskull and puts it into play next turn is a lot better than a 4 drop that searches up Batterskull and can put it into play next turn.
That's not to say that the deck couldn't adjust - it could run Aven Mindcensor instead of Leonin Arbiter, for example. But assuming that Stoneforge Mystic would be a slam-dunk in Death and Taxes does kind of ignore the fact that the deck is almost entirely built around making it hard for both players to search their libraries.
Right, it would be a bit of a different deck, not the exact D&T out there right now. My theoretical tappedout decklist does actually have some Mindcensor in it. Some optimization would obviously have to be done.
All the talk of unbanning BBE and SFM has me wanting to brew a new Naya deck using both, see where that leads, could be fun ...
My guess is that Stoneforge would flat out replace Arbiter. The power level on the mystic is just so much higher and non-symmetrical at that.
Something would have to go to make the 6-7 slots for the SFM package. Arbiter could go in the side for players that still want to run it, or as mentioned above, Mindcensors could go in the main/side, etc.
Speaking of the 6-7 slots, would U/W control really be able to make that much room for it? Decklist seems really tight to me. I'm not a control player though. Maybe gkourou has an opinion on this.
Speaking of the 6-7 slots, would U/W control really be able to make that much room for it? Decklist seems really tight to me. I'm not a control player though. Maybe gkourou has an opinion on this.
I don't think they would, but there would be instead some kind of StoneBlade style deck running Geist in UW (or Jeskai for burn or Esper for Push/Tasigur/Souls). At least that's what I would be doing.
DnT would not be the home for Stoneforge, by the by. Not in its current form, at least.
The deck is literally built around using Leonin Arbiter to turn Ghost Quarter into Strip Mine, and as it turns out, Leonin Arbiter is a symmetrical effect. A 2 drop that searches up Batterskull and puts it into play next turn is a lot better than a 4 drop that searches up Batterskull and can put it into play next turn.
That's not to say that the deck couldn't adjust - it could run Aven Mindcensor instead of Leonin Arbiter, for example. But assuming that Stoneforge Mystic would be a slam-dunk in Death and Taxes does kind of ignore the fact that the deck is almost entirely built around making it hard for both players to search their libraries.
Right, it would be a bit of a different deck, not the exact D&T out there right now. My theoretical tappedout decklist does actually have some Mindcensor in it. Some optimization would obviously have to be done.
All the talk of unbanning BBE and SFM has me wanting to brew a new Naya deck using both, see where that leads, could be fun ...
I think a good starting point for that naya deck would be the old big zoo decks from 2011
The old big zoo decks evolved into Knightfall since they were using Knight of the Reliquary and Kessig wolf run already. BBE might make for a reasonable Coco replacement since it hits both halves of the combo. Sounds neat.
I'd do it. I mean, who could possibly resist playing that pile? That being said, it's actually unclear to me that this is better than what is seeing play right now. Coco has a strong chance of being just better than BBE in the decks that have the choice (both at 4 cmc is awkward and unlikely in the same list).
I don't think they would, but there would be instead some kind of StoneBlade style deck running Geist in UW (or Jeskai for burn or Esper for Push/Tasigur/Souls). At least that's what I would be doing.
That was my first thought when I went to test SFM too. SFM solves all of Geist's problems, makes it a WAY better card.
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Modern UBR Grixis Shadow UBR UR Izzet Phoenix UR UW UW Control UW GB GB Rock GB
Commander BG Meren of Clan Nel Toth BG BGUW Atraxa, Praetor's Voice BGUW
Hate to burst everyone's bubble here but getting both SFM and BBE in the same announcement is all but impossible.
On the other hand there is a worse scenario, one in which you get exactly what you want and it doesn't matter anyway (Thopter Foundry comes to mind).
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In my dream, the world had suffered a terrible disaster. A black haze shut out the sun, and the darkness was alive with the moans and screams of wounded people. Suddenly, a small light glowed. A candle flickered into life, symbol of hope for millions. A single tiny candle, shining in the ugly dark. I laughed and blew it out.
Many thanks to HotP Studios. Special thanks to DNC for this great sig.
God does this sound condescending.
Your own data shows a significant uptick for E-Tron in the past few months and when I say ET should be considered for banning you're telling me I'm trolling?
It's good of you to post that data but deciding who gets to take what away from said data is way out of line.
Many thanks to HotP Studios. Special thanks to DNC for this great sig.
Fair enough. The Urza lands not being legendary I can understand
Valakut, on the other hand, has no excuses.
According to his data... it's grown to a whopping 7% of the field! 7% is pretty tame, considering Grixis Shadow occupied over 10% meta share for a while. The deck certainly isn't breaking any of the loose terms that WotC stated ages ago for the format. It hasn't taken down enough events to be a concern, its metashare is at a healthy % and it certainly isn't winning games before turn 4 consistently.
Now, if it starts monopolizing spots in top 8's over the next few big events or starts commanding a large metashare, then there might be cause for realistic ban talk on EldraziTron decks. Until those things start happening, serious talk of banning EldraziTron pieces comes off as merely "I don't like this deck, so it shouldn't exist," which may not be your intention, but that's a bit how it's perceived.
I'm talking about stuff like people saying Eldrazi Tron would still be a thing if Temple and/or Tron were banned.
Or Drekavac's little doozy stating that decks would use SFM would still get rolled by Eldrazi Tron, when in fact the most obvious home for SFM is D&T, a deck that's a strong favorite vs ET.
Or people who still complain about the unfairness of Tron, a deck that hovers around 2% meta share and is about the 16th best deck in Modern.
I could go on, but everyone knows what I'm talking about. Drekavac also mentioned my data, which clearly shows that Eldrazi Tron is the 3rd best deck in Modern. There are two decks clearly better, and every other deck is clearly worse. It's the 3rd best deck, period. Might that change in the future? Yeah, it might. But we live in the now.
Like Ulamog here said, people should step back and really consider their posts and arguments. All of us. Else the thread devolves into bans to kill decks we dislike, improve our own decks, bring back our decks to the format and "mud-slinging"... I guess it always ends up happening, wonder why. The quality of the posts would increase if we just stop disregarding what we know, which isn't a lot to begin with.
Frontier: UBR Grixis Control | BRG Jund Delirium
Spirits
Certainly not.
…but we’ve seen trends like this before. Jund DS saw a pretty meteoric rise after it did well. People clamored for a ban, to see the meta push it down and it evolved into Grixis DS. That deck saw a huge uptick as well, because it seemed like “the best deck in the format”. Now look. Grixis DS shares are quickly dropping and EldraziTron is rising.
Just looking at that sort of history, it’s difficult to agree with the preemptive banmania exhibited by people when it comes to anything from those decks until we see that the meta cannot adapt to the deck.
Eldrazi Tron is hugely weak to an entire archetype (creature aggro), while being weak to spell based, non graveyard combo, the deck can be exploited and can't oppress the format, not without new colorless cards to combat those issues.
Drevac, you're not being reasonable, and not throwing out anything factual. The deck is 7% of the meta at most. A significant uptick conversion can't even begin until it hits 12%, and even 12% isn't alarming.
Good thing this thread is a minority in the game, it'd be ran into the ground everytime decks did well in tournaments.
DNT beating up on Grixis Shadow and E-Tron is fine with me, especially with SFM.
I really think DNT and BBE would be great to unban this month
I think Jund continues to be a garbage deck without BBE, and I'm not sure BBE can really catapult the deck back to the top.
I think BBE really needs to come off now, the card is severely not dangerous anymore.
I'd like to see DNT wreck those decks, too. Really curious if we see a BBE unban, if it doesn't happen between now and the pro-tour, I'm absolutely certain it stay permeantely be banned.
What are you talking about? Who would do that? ;P
After getting burned for a $200 AV playset, I placed my bets already...
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
The deck is literally built around using Leonin Arbiter to turn Ghost Quarter into Strip Mine, and as it turns out, Leonin Arbiter is a symmetrical effect. A 2 drop that searches up Batterskull and puts it into play next turn is a lot better than a 4 drop that searches up Batterskull and can put it into play next turn.
That's not to say that the deck couldn't adjust - it could run Aven Mindcensor instead of Leonin Arbiter, for example. But assuming that Stoneforge Mystic would be a slam-dunk in Death and Taxes does kind of ignore the fact that the deck is almost entirely built around making it hard for both players to search their libraries.
As I said in the announcement poll and have said now since I tested it about 6 months ago: there is a non-trivial chance that Stoneforge Mystic isn't good enough to see wide play. By that, I mean that SFM is most likely to find a home in a tier 2-3 deck at best. It just doesn't do enough without Umezawa's Jitte to be a real house.
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG
My feeling is that it's a really strong card that would see play in Modern, but you never really know about unbans though until the community at large has their way with it. The wisdom of the crowd will prove it out one way or another. I don't think any individual can solve such a complex puzzle in their head or even through testing.
SFM vs Arbiter in the main deck of D&T would be a meta call IMHO. Arbiter can be nice, but it's a Grizzly Bears in a lot of situations. Arbiter could still be available in the side, swap for SFM in its best value matchups, or vice versa. I have a lot of the pieces for D&T but haven't finished it. I'd definitely finish a SFM version if it was unbanned, already have my playset ready to go...
Right, it would be a bit of a different deck, not the exact D&T out there right now. My theoretical tappedout decklist does actually have some Mindcensor in it. Some optimization would obviously have to be done.
All the talk of unbanning BBE and SFM has me wanting to brew a new Naya deck using both, see where that leads, could be fun ...
Something would have to go to make the 6-7 slots for the SFM package. Arbiter could go in the side for players that still want to run it, or as mentioned above, Mindcensors could go in the main/side, etc.
Speaking of the 6-7 slots, would U/W control really be able to make that much room for it? Decklist seems really tight to me. I'm not a control player though. Maybe gkourou has an opinion on this.
I don't think they would, but there would be instead some kind of StoneBlade style deck running Geist in UW (or Jeskai for burn or Esper for Push/Tasigur/Souls). At least that's what I would be doing.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
I think a good starting point for that naya deck would be the old big zoo decks from 2011
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Spell Queller
4 Bloodbraid Elf
4 Path to Exile
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Temple Garden
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Stomping Ground
1 Breeding Pool
1 Hallowed Fountain
2 Forest
1 Plains
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Kessig Wolf Run
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG
UBR Grixis Shadow UBR
UR Izzet Phoenix UR
UW UW Control UW
GB GB Rock GB
Commander
BG Meren of Clan Nel Toth BG
BGUW Atraxa, Praetor's Voice BGUW
4 wild nacatl
4 noble hierarch
4 stoneforge mystic
2 qasali pridemage
2 scavenging ooze
3 voice of resurgence
4 knight of the reliquary
2 mirran crusader
4 blood braid elf
4 path to exile
3 lightning bolt
1 batterskull
1 sword of fire and ice
4 wooded foothills
4 windswept heath
2 arid mesa
2 forest
1 plains
1 mountain
2 temple garden
2 stomping grounds
1 sacred foundry
1 kessig wolf run
1 horizon canopy
1 ghost quarter
On the other hand there is a worse scenario, one in which you get exactly what you want and it doesn't matter anyway (Thopter Foundry comes to mind).
Many thanks to HotP Studios. Special thanks to DNC for this great sig.
I wouldn't call that a worse case scenario. I am perfectly fine with cards coming off the banned list and it not breaking Modern in half.
Modern Decks:
UBG Lantern Control GBU
BRG Bridge-Vine GRB
Commander Decks
UBG Muldrotha, Value Elemental GBU
BRG Windgrace Real-Estate Ltd. GRB
#PayThePros
With these 12 cards, I think an archetype name like Naya Unbanned would be very fitting!