How does one attack ETron? Other than "hope they stumble" or "damage race," what can decks actually do? Mind you that, as I mentioned last page, answers like Ceremonious Rejection are handled by their 4x, main deck Chalice of the Void. Hitting their lands doesn't really hurt them, all their creatures are hugely-advantageous 2-for-1s, they pack one-sided board wipes that get rid of all your non-land permanents, they have access to tons of graveyard hate, countermagic for sorceries, additional board wipes, and a top end that nobody can compete with, all with a pain-free manabase that gets to run multiple sol lands and utility lands at no detriment to color fixing.
Maybe I'm missing something, but it seems like when this deck loses, it's only because it loses to itself or to an explosive hand out of a hyper aggro deck.
Dismissing ceremonious rejection due to chalice would be like dismissing kor firewalker against burn due to skullcrack. Yeah, they have a 4-of that can answer the problem, but that problem still needs to be answered. In the rejection/e-tron case, we're talking about a a chalice that can't be cheated out turn 1 can can be stopped by the very card that answers the rest of the deck.
Between Chalice and Cavern of Souls, you can't reliably count on Rejection to save you. It's definitely good, but it's not even back-breaking. It's more of a speed bump.
Remember, Chalice is a 4x main, meaning they'll have one to play on turn 2 nearly 50% of the time. Chalice also shuts off lots of cards from lots of decks, not just Rejection. The card wrecks hard and is played in the main deck with virtually no downside.
How does one attack ETron? Other than "hope they stumble" or "damage race," what can decks actually do? Mind you that, as I mentioned last page, answers like Ceremonious Rejection are handled by their 4x, main deck Chalice of the Void. Hitting their lands doesn't really hurt them, all their creatures are hugely-advantageous 2-for-1s, they pack one-sided board wipes that get rid of all your non-land permanents, they have access to tons of graveyard hate, countermagic for sorceries, additional board wipes, and a top end that nobody can compete with, all with a pain-free manabase that gets to run multiple sol lands and utility lands at no detriment to color fixing.
Maybe I'm missing something, but it seems like when this deck loses, it's only because it loses to itself or to an explosive hand out of a hyper aggro deck.
Dismissing ceremonious rejection due to chalice would be like dismissing kor firewalker against burn due to skullcrack. Yeah, they have a 4-of that can answer the problem, but that problem still needs to be answered. In the rejection/e-tron case, we're talking about a a chalice that can't be cheated out turn 1 can can be stopped by the very card that answers the rest of the deck.
Between Chalice and Cavern of Souls, you can't reliably count on Rejection to save you. It's definitely good, but it's not even back-breaking. It's more of a speed bump.
Remember, Chalice is a 4x main, meaning they'll have one to play on turn 2 nearly 50% of the time. Chalice also shuts off lots of cards from lots of decks, not just Rejection. The card wrecks hard and is played in the main deck with virtually no downside.
Yet Eldrazi Tron is not putting up nearly the same numbers as its eye of ugin predecessor. Its just good against some decks.
How does one attack ETron? Other than "hope they stumble" or "damage race," what can decks actually do? Mind you that, as I mentioned last page, answers like Ceremonious Rejection are handled by their 4x, main deck Chalice of the Void. Hitting their lands doesn't really hurt them, all their creatures are hugely-advantageous 2-for-1s, they pack one-sided board wipes that get rid of all your non-land permanents, they have access to tons of graveyard hate, countermagic for sorceries, additional board wipes, and a top end that nobody can compete with, all with a pain-free manabase that gets to run multiple sol lands and utility lands at no detriment to color fixing.
Maybe I'm missing something, but it seems like when this deck loses, it's only because it loses to itself or to an explosive hand out of a hyper aggro deck.
Dismissing ceremonious rejection due to chalice would be like dismissing kor firewalker against burn due to skullcrack. Yeah, they have a 4-of that can answer the problem, but that problem still needs to be answered. In the rejection/e-tron case, we're talking about a a chalice that can't be cheated out turn 1 can can be stopped by the very card that answers the rest of the deck.
Between Chalice and Cavern of Souls, you can't reliably count on Rejection to save you. It's definitely good, but it's not even back-breaking. It's more of a speed bump.
Remember, Chalice is a 4x main, meaning they'll have one to play on turn 2 nearly 50% of the time. Chalice also shuts off lots of cards from lots of decks, not just Rejection. The card wrecks hard and is played in the main deck with virtually no downside.
So is your issue with eldrazi temple, chalice of the void, cavern of souls, or every card that gives control a hard time? I'm sorry if that comes off as aggressive, it just seems like the issue is one of the more common ones in the thread - people wanting their decks to have less bad matchups.
[quote from="cfusionpm »" url="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/780164-temporary-state-of-the-meta-thread-rules-update-7?comment=1159"]Yet Eldrazi Tron is not putting up nearly the same numbers as its eye of ugin predecessor. Its just good against some decks.
So is your issue with eldrazi temple, chalice of the void, cavern of souls, or every card that gives control a hard time? I'm sorry if that comes off as aggressive, it just seems like the issue is one of the more common ones in the thread - people wanting their decks to have less bad matchups.
I'm genuinely curious about how to attack the deck. Is ETron losing to itself enough? How else do you attack this deck other than a narrow sideboard card that is not super powerful and easily defeated or playing a fast aggro deck while dodging Chalice?
Any of a number of other good cards against them. Think Blood Moon, Spreading Seas, Fulminator Mage, hand attack, artifact removal, Damnation.
Sideboard cards aside, it seems silly to say the deck only loses to itself and fast aggro. They fold to Titanshift and Ad Nauseum as well. If the decks only weaknesses were variance and Affinity, it would be the undisputed best deck. But, that's obviously not the case. So instead of clamoring for a ban, look at the results and think a little wider than the narrow point of view you are backing into. The deck is beatable by a number of decks. Just watch the meta even out.
[quote from="cfusionpm »" url="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/780164-temporary-state-of-the-meta-thread-rules-update-7?comment=1159"]Yet Eldrazi Tron is not putting up nearly the same numbers as its eye of ugin predecessor. Its just good against some decks.
So is your issue with eldrazi temple, chalice of the void, cavern of souls, or every card that gives control a hard time? I'm sorry if that comes off as aggressive, it just seems like the issue is one of the more common ones in the thread - people wanting their decks to have less bad matchups.
I'm genuinely curious about how to attack the deck. Is ETron losing to itself enough? How else do you attack this deck other than a narrow sideboard card that is not super powerful and easily defeated or playing a fast aggro deck while dodging Chalice?
E-tron has a difficult time with fast aggro, go wide, and graveyard-based strategies. Affinity has a big advantage, dredge is good, and merfolk (from my limited experience) also has a good matchup. Then there are combo decks like storm (favored) and ad naus. (favored but less so). There isn't a singular hoser card a la stony silence or rest in peace for the matchup, but there are several cards that help which decks already run incidentally. Things like blood moon/spreading seas/rejection.
Sideboard cards aside, it seems silly to say the deck only loses to itself and fast aggro. They fold to Titanshift and Ad Nauseum as well. If the decks only weaknesses were variance and Affinity, it would be the undisputed best deck. But, that's obviously not the case. So instead of clamoring for a ban, look at the results and think a little wider than the narrow point of view you are backing into. The deck is beatable by a number of decks. Just watch the meta even out.
Agreed, let's see what happens over the next few tournaments. It's silly to overreact to one tournament. I haven't seen enough to make think it's not still just the 3rd best deck in the format.
And people complaining about interactivity are not really paying attention. Between Grixis, U/W and Jeskai there are multiple Tier 1 or borderline Tier 1 decks that are having a lot of success right now. There are great decks for everyone - Spike, Johnny, and Timmy.
[quote from="cfusionpm »" url="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/780164-temporary-state-of-the-meta-thread-rules-update-7?comment=1159"]Yet Eldrazi Tron is not putting up nearly the same numbers as its eye of ugin predecessor. Its just good against some decks.
So is your issue with eldrazi temple, chalice of the void, cavern of souls, or every card that gives control a hard time? I'm sorry if that comes off as aggressive, it just seems like the issue is one of the more common ones in the thread - people wanting their decks to have less bad matchups.
I'm genuinely curious about how to attack the deck. Is ETron losing to itself enough? How else do you attack this deck other than a narrow sideboard card that is not super powerful and easily defeated or playing a fast aggro deck while dodging Chalice?
E-tron has a difficult time with fast aggro, go wide, and graveyard-based strategies. Affinity has a big advantage, dredge is good, and merfolk (from my limited experience) also has a good matchup. Then there are combo decks like storm (favored) and ad naus. (favored but less so). There isn't a singular hoser card a la stony silence or rest in peace for the matchup, but there are several cards that help which decks already run incidentally. Things like blood moon/spreading seas/rejection.
Yeah. Lingering Souls is looking better and better all the time.
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WoTC, thank you for finally announcing the Modern format, an eternal format where everyone can participate.
How does one attack ETron? Other than "hope they stumble" or "damage race," what can decks actually do? Mind you that, as I mentioned last page, answers like Ceremonious Rejection are handled by their 4x, main deck Chalice of the Void. Hitting their lands doesn't really hurt them, all their creatures are hugely-advantageous 2-for-1s, they pack one-sided board wipes that get rid of all your non-land permanents, they have access to tons of graveyard hate, countermagic for sorceries, additional board wipes, and a top end that nobody can compete with, all with a pain-free manabase that gets to run multiple sol lands and utility lands at no detriment to color fixing.
Maybe I'm missing something, but it seems like when this deck loses, it's only because it loses to itself or to an explosive hand out of a hyper aggro deck.
Dismissing ceremonious rejection due to chalice would be like dismissing kor firewalker against burn due to skullcrack. Yeah, they have a 4-of that can answer the problem, but that problem still needs to be answered. In the rejection/e-tron case, we're talking about a a chalice that can't be cheated out turn 1 can can be stopped by the very card that answers the rest of the deck.
Between Chalice and Cavern of Souls, you can't reliably count on Rejection to save you. It's definitely good, but it's not even back-breaking. It's more of a speed bump.
Remember, Chalice is a 4x main, meaning they'll have one to play on turn 2 nearly 50% of the time. Chalice also shuts off lots of cards from lots of decks, not just Rejection. The card wrecks hard and is played in the main deck with virtually no downside.
Yet Eldrazi Tron is not putting up nearly the same numbers as its eye of ugin predecessor. Its just good against some decks.
So you would advise waiting for it's metagame share to be greater then the combined share of all the other tier one decks before considering bans? Pretty slick.
The problem with rejection Vs chalice is what happens when they draw and cast chalice before you find your counter. SSG is still a card which those decks can play if they prioritize chalice enough, like they did at the pt.
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In my dream, the world had suffered a terrible disaster. A black haze shut out the sun, and the darkness was alive with the moans and screams of wounded people. Suddenly, a small light glowed. A candle flickered into life, symbol of hope for millions. A single tiny candle, shining in the ugly dark. I laughed and blew it out.
Many thanks to HotP Studios. Special thanks to DNC for this great sig.
How does one attack ETron? Other than "hope they stumble" or "damage race," what can decks actually do? Mind you that, as I mentioned last page, answers like Ceremonious Rejection are handled by their 4x, main deck Chalice of the Void. Hitting their lands doesn't really hurt them, all their creatures are hugely-advantageous 2-for-1s, they pack one-sided board wipes that get rid of all your non-land permanents, they have access to tons of graveyard hate, countermagic for sorceries, additional board wipes, and a top end that nobody can compete with, all with a pain-free manabase that gets to run multiple sol lands and utility lands at no detriment to color fixing.
Maybe I'm missing something, but it seems like when this deck loses, it's only because it loses to itself or to an explosive hand out of a hyper aggro deck.
Dismissing ceremonious rejection due to chalice would be like dismissing kor firewalker against burn due to skullcrack. Yeah, they have a 4-of that can answer the problem, but that problem still needs to be answered. In the rejection/e-tron case, we're talking about a a chalice that can't be cheated out turn 1 can can be stopped by the very card that answers the rest of the deck.
Between Chalice and Cavern of Souls, you can't reliably count on Rejection to save you. It's definitely good, but it's not even back-breaking. It's more of a speed bump.
Remember, Chalice is a 4x main, meaning they'll have one to play on turn 2 nearly 50% of the time. Chalice also shuts off lots of cards from lots of decks, not just Rejection. The card wrecks hard and is played in the main deck with virtually no downside.
Yet Eldrazi Tron is not putting up nearly the same numbers as its eye of ugin predecessor. Its just good against some decks.
So you would advise waiting for it's metagame share to be greater then the combined share of all the other tier one decks before considering bans? Pretty slick.
The problem with rejection Vs chalice is what happens when they draw and cast chalice before you find your counter. SSG is still a card which those decks can play if they prioritize chalice enough, like they did at the pt.
Yes. I want a deck that doesn't violate the turn four rule to be tier zero before banning.
Lingering souls is criminally underplayed. I firmly believe that an optimized tokens list could wreck havoc on the meta, but I'm also wildly biased.
B/W Token isn't really doing anything competitively. Who knows whether any given deck would put up results if it was played more? It would be great if we had lists of every entry in the tournaments, then we could get a true meta share, then be able to compare that to the share of top finishers to see what decks are being under/over-played relative to their meta share.
I have a scoring function that tries to get at this value-vs-share relationship, and it doesn't indicate that B/W Tokens is undervalued... but then again it's a relatively small sample size of data we have to work with due to infrequency of tournaments and limited results posted. Sometimes it shows a deck standing out as undervalued, for example U/W Control, but we see the meta is starting to reflect that value with increasing meta share in the last month. I'm seeing similar things happen with B/W Eldrazi. I kinda feel like if a deck is really good, the meta share will start to grow with it over time.
How does one attack ETron? Other than "hope they stumble" or "damage race," what can decks actually do? Mind you that, as I mentioned last page, answers like Ceremonious Rejection are handled by their 4x, main deck Chalice of the Void. Hitting their lands doesn't really hurt them, all their creatures are hugely-advantageous 2-for-1s, they pack one-sided board wipes that get rid of all your non-land permanents, they have access to tons of graveyard hate, countermagic for sorceries, additional board wipes, and a top end that nobody can compete with, all with a pain-free manabase that gets to run multiple sol lands and utility lands at no detriment to color fixing.
Maybe I'm missing something, but it seems like when this deck loses, it's only because it loses to itself or to an explosive hand out of a hyper aggro deck.
Dismissing ceremonious rejection due to chalice would be like dismissing kor firewalker against burn due to skullcrack. Yeah, they have a 4-of that can answer the problem, but that problem still needs to be answered. In the rejection/e-tron case, we're talking about a a chalice that can't be cheated out turn 1 can can be stopped by the very card that answers the rest of the deck.
Between Chalice and Cavern of Souls, you can't reliably count on Rejection to save you. It's definitely good, but it's not even back-breaking. It's more of a speed bump.
Remember, Chalice is a 4x main, meaning they'll have one to play on turn 2 nearly 50% of the time. Chalice also shuts off lots of cards from lots of decks, not just Rejection. The card wrecks hard and is played in the main deck with virtually no downside.
Yet Eldrazi Tron is not putting up nearly the same numbers as its eye of ugin predecessor. Its just good against some decks.
So you would advise waiting for it's metagame share to be greater then the combined share of all the other tier one decks before considering bans? Pretty slick.
The problem with rejection Vs chalice is what happens when they draw and cast chalice before you find your counter. SSG is still a card which those decks can play if they prioritize chalice enough, like they did at the pt.
Running SSG in e-tron to cheat out chalice is purposefully running a less-optimized version of the deck to help in corner cases. This discussion took a weird turn from "e-tron is too strong" to "temple is too strong" to "chalice makes rejection pointless".
Yes, if you draw and cast a chalice on 1 before your opponent draws ceremonious rejection, you will be at an advantage. Also important to note: Storm will be beat if you cast rule of law before the storm player has remand, lantern will be beat if you cast stony silence before lantern can discard it, and 3-color decks will be beat if you draw and cast blood moon before they fetch for basics. You can't just turn an argument into "well if they have an answer for my answer first, that is unfair." Well, you can, it just isn't a good argument.
Yes, if you draw and cast a chalice on 1 before your opponent draws ceremonious rejection, you will be at an advantage. Also important to note: Storm will be beat if you cast rule of law before the storm player has remand, lantern will be beat if their opponent casts stony silence before lantern can discard it, and 3-color decks will be beat if their opponent draws and casts blood moon before they fetch for basics. You can't just turn an argument into "well if they have an answer for my answer first, that is unfair." Well, you can, it just isn't a good argument.
Stubbs, your logic is way too on point for an internet forum. Take it down a notch man.
Dismissing ceremonious rejection due to chalice would be like dismissing kor firewalker against burn due to skullcrack. Yeah, they have a 4-of that can answer the problem, but that problem still needs to be answered. In the rejection/e-tron case, we're talking about a a chalice that can't be cheated out turn 1 can can be stopped by the very card that answers the rest of the deck.
Between Chalice and Cavern of Souls, you can't reliably count on Rejection to save you. It's definitely good, but it's not even back-breaking. It's more of a speed bump.
Remember, Chalice is a 4x main, meaning they'll have one to play on turn 2 nearly 50% of the time. Chalice also shuts off lots of cards from lots of decks, not just Rejection. The card wrecks hard and is played in the main deck with virtually no downside.
Yet Eldrazi Tron is not putting up nearly the same numbers as its eye of ugin predecessor. Its just good against some decks.
So you would advise waiting for it's metagame share to be greater then the combined share of all the other tier one decks before considering bans? Pretty slick.
The problem with rejection Vs chalice is what happens when they draw and cast chalice before you find your counter. SSG is still a card which those decks can play if they prioritize chalice enough, like they did at the pt.
Yes. I want a deck that doesn't violate the turn four rule to be tier zero before banning.
Wouldn't be the first time. Probably wouldn't be the last.
Eldrazi Tron is a fair deck. Fair decks don't usually have a huge weak point to target with sideboard hate that's a huge point behind them. There is no card that really super hoses Jund. There's no one card that super hoses Jeskai Control. There are cards that super hose affinity and any combo deck. That's how the decks work.
Eldrazi Tron is a fair deck. Fair decks don't usually have a huge weak point to target with sideboard hate that's a huge point behind them. There is no card that really super hoses Jund. There's no one card that super hoses Jeskai Control. There are cards that super hose affinity and any combo deck. That's how the decks work.
Fair decks get lands that tap for 2 and 3 mana? Sign me up!
What do you all think of the more recent Knightfall lists that people are running since Todd Stevens team constructed list? Is Ramunap Excavator tech enough to raise this deck up out of tier 3? Deck does seem to be a little better now.
Between Chalice and Cavern of Souls, you can't reliably count on Rejection to save you. It's definitely good, but it's not even back-breaking. It's more of a speed bump.
Remember, Chalice is a 4x main, meaning they'll have one to play on turn 2 nearly 50% of the time. Chalice also shuts off lots of cards from lots of decks, not just Rejection. The card wrecks hard and is played in the main deck with virtually no downside.
Yet Eldrazi Tron is not putting up nearly the same numbers as its eye of ugin predecessor. Its just good against some decks.
So you would advise waiting for it's metagame share to be greater then the combined share of all the other tier one decks before considering bans? Pretty slick.
The problem with rejection Vs chalice is what happens when they draw and cast chalice before you find your counter. SSG is still a card which those decks can play if they prioritize chalice enough, like they did at the pt.
Yes. I want a deck that doesn't violate the turn four rule to be tier zero before banning.
Wouldn't be the first time. Probably wouldn't be the last.
Jund wasn't tier 0 when DRS and BBE were banned.
Voldemort wasn't tier 0 when it was banned and neither was Birthing Pod or any other deck except eldrazi come to think of it.
Most of those decks were fair-ish and didn't break the turn 4 rule and they still got chopped. Why should E-Tron be exempted?
In no uncertain terms ET was responsible for The Worst period in this format's history. There is no good reason to go soft on it...
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In my dream, the world had suffered a terrible disaster. A black haze shut out the sun, and the darkness was alive with the moans and screams of wounded people. Suddenly, a small light glowed. A candle flickered into life, symbol of hope for millions. A single tiny candle, shining in the ugly dark. I laughed and blew it out.
Many thanks to HotP Studios. Special thanks to DNC for this great sig.
Temple didn't cause Eldrazi winter. That was Eye of Ugin. And I fully support the banning of Eye while leaving Temple. It allowed decks like Bant Eldrazi and ETron to happen and be powerful but not broken. Now, if the meta shakes out after the pro tour such that ETron is too good and too high of a percentage, a ban may be warranted. But right now it is fine.
Temple didn't cause Eldrazi winter. That was Eye of Ugin. And I fully support the banning of Eye while leaving Temple. It allowed decks like Bant Eldrazi and ETron to happen and be powerful but not broken. Now, if the meta shakes out after the pro tour such that ETron is too good and too high of a percentage, a ban may be warranted. But right now it is fine.
Actually, neither of those lands caused any problems at all when Eldrazi were limited to 8+ mana titans.
What broke the format was Wizards, in their infinite wisdom, printing stupidbrokenpushed [card=Thought-Knot Seer]overpowered Eldrazi at undercosted value.
These creatures are already good at their face-value cost. When you combine it with multiple 2+ mana lands, they're fairly ridiculous.
What do you all think of the more recent Knightfall lists that people are running since Todd Stevens team constructed list? Is Ramunap Excavator tech enough to raise this deck up out of tier 3? Deck does seem to be a little better now.
The meta is just very hostile to decks like knightfall. You are a underdog to e tron, and titan shift. Affinity is sideboard dependant and your grixis death shadow matchup is 50/50 depending on your build. Basically you have some 50/50 matchups and some bad ones. Ramunap Excavator makes the deck better but ultimately can only be played as a 1 or 2 of and doesn't help the decks biggest issues. Its gonna take a significant meta shift or some cards being unbanned to make the more fair and not so combo oriented company decks good
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Between Chalice and Cavern of Souls, you can't reliably count on Rejection to save you. It's definitely good, but it's not even back-breaking. It's more of a speed bump.
Remember, Chalice is a 4x main, meaning they'll have one to play on turn 2 nearly 50% of the time. Chalice also shuts off lots of cards from lots of decks, not just Rejection. The card wrecks hard and is played in the main deck with virtually no downside.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
Yet Eldrazi Tron is not putting up nearly the same numbers as its eye of ugin predecessor. Its just good against some decks.
So is your issue with eldrazi temple, chalice of the void, cavern of souls, or every card that gives control a hard time? I'm sorry if that comes off as aggressive, it just seems like the issue is one of the more common ones in the thread - people wanting their decks to have less bad matchups.
Affinity
Death & Taxes
Mardu Nahiri
Forcing people to merge with twitch is stupid
I'm genuinely curious about how to attack the deck. Is ETron losing to itself enough? How else do you attack this deck other than a narrow sideboard card that is not super powerful and easily defeated or playing a fast aggro deck while dodging Chalice?
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
Sideboard cards aside, it seems silly to say the deck only loses to itself and fast aggro. They fold to Titanshift and Ad Nauseum as well. If the decks only weaknesses were variance and Affinity, it would be the undisputed best deck. But, that's obviously not the case. So instead of clamoring for a ban, look at the results and think a little wider than the narrow point of view you are backing into. The deck is beatable by a number of decks. Just watch the meta even out.
Marath, Will of the Wild Tokens!! / Karrthus, Tyrant of Jund Dragons! / Muzzio, Visionary Architect / Brago, King Eternal / Daretti, Scrap Savant / Narset, Enlightened Master / Alesha, Who Smiles at Death / Bruna, Light of Alabaster / Marchesa, the Black Rose / Iroas, God of Victory / Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury / Omnath, Locus of rage / Titania, Protector of Argoth / Kozilek, the Great Distortion
Modern
Elves / Titanshift / Merfolk
E-tron has a difficult time with fast aggro, go wide, and graveyard-based strategies. Affinity has a big advantage, dredge is good, and merfolk (from my limited experience) also has a good matchup. Then there are combo decks like storm (favored) and ad naus. (favored but less so). There isn't a singular hoser card a la stony silence or rest in peace for the matchup, but there are several cards that help which decks already run incidentally. Things like blood moon/spreading seas/rejection.
Affinity
Death & Taxes
Mardu Nahiri
Forcing people to merge with twitch is stupid
Many others too like Supreme Verdict, Wrath of God, Path to Exile, Ghost Quarter, counterspells, etc.
Agreed, let's see what happens over the next few tournaments. It's silly to overreact to one tournament. I haven't seen enough to make think it's not still just the 3rd best deck in the format.
And people complaining about interactivity are not really paying attention. Between Grixis, U/W and Jeskai there are multiple Tier 1 or borderline Tier 1 decks that are having a lot of success right now. There are great decks for everyone - Spike, Johnny, and Timmy.
Yeah. Lingering Souls is looking better and better all the time.
So you would advise waiting for it's metagame share to be greater then the combined share of all the other tier one decks before considering bans? Pretty slick.
The problem with rejection Vs chalice is what happens when they draw and cast chalice before you find your counter. SSG is still a card which those decks can play if they prioritize chalice enough, like they did at the pt.
Many thanks to HotP Studios. Special thanks to DNC for this great sig.
Edit: bolded the part people must have missed in replies.
Affinity
Death & Taxes
Mardu Nahiri
Forcing people to merge with twitch is stupid
Yes. I want a deck that doesn't violate the turn four rule to be tier zero before banning.
Ratchet bomb, tks, relic, and 1/1's (slow clock) blocking 5/5 tramplers seems meh. However if it lines up well for you sure.
B/W Token isn't really doing anything competitively. Who knows whether any given deck would put up results if it was played more? It would be great if we had lists of every entry in the tournaments, then we could get a true meta share, then be able to compare that to the share of top finishers to see what decks are being under/over-played relative to their meta share.
I have a scoring function that tries to get at this value-vs-share relationship, and it doesn't indicate that B/W Tokens is undervalued... but then again it's a relatively small sample size of data we have to work with due to infrequency of tournaments and limited results posted. Sometimes it shows a deck standing out as undervalued, for example U/W Control, but we see the meta is starting to reflect that value with increasing meta share in the last month. I'm seeing similar things happen with B/W Eldrazi. I kinda feel like if a deck is really good, the meta share will start to grow with it over time.
Running SSG in e-tron to cheat out chalice is purposefully running a less-optimized version of the deck to help in corner cases. This discussion took a weird turn from "e-tron is too strong" to "temple is too strong" to "chalice makes rejection pointless".
Yes, if you draw and cast a chalice on 1 before your opponent draws ceremonious rejection, you will be at an advantage. Also important to note: Storm will be beat if you cast rule of law before the storm player has remand, lantern will be beat if you cast stony silence before lantern can discard it, and 3-color decks will be beat if you draw and cast blood moon before they fetch for basics. You can't just turn an argument into "well if they have an answer for my answer first, that is unfair." Well, you can, it just isn't a good argument.
Affinity
Death & Taxes
Mardu Nahiri
Forcing people to merge with twitch is stupid
Stubbs, your logic is way too on point for an internet forum. Take it down a notch man.
Wouldn't be the first time. Probably wouldn't be the last.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
meanwhile I typically don't have too much trouble with Etron, but i play a rogue deck I designed.
4 Birds of Paradise
// 10 Enchantment
3 Oath of Nissa
3 Intangible Virtue
2 Trace of Abundance
2 Oath of Gideon
// 3 Instant
1 Blessed Alliance
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Fatal Push
// 24 Land
2 Forest
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Overgrown Tomb
2 Temple Garden
1 Stomping Ground
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Swamp
2 Plains
1 Sunpetal Grove
2 Gavony Township
1 Breeding Pool
1 Khalni Garden
1 Vault of the Archangel
3 Nissa, Voice of Zendikar
3 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
2 Sarkhan Unbroken
1 Garruk, Apex Predator
2 Arlinn Kord
1 Nicol Bolas, God-Pharaoh
2 Elspeth Tirel
1 Garruk, Primal Hunter
// 4 Sorcery
4 Wrath of God
// 8 Enchantment
4 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Rest in Peace
2 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Blessed Alliance
2 Destructive Revelry
4 Sorcery
2 Creeping Corrosion
2 Day of Judgment
Fair decks get lands that tap for 2 and 3 mana? Sign me up!
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
Jund wasn't tier 0 when DRS and BBE were banned.
Voldemort wasn't tier 0 when it was banned and neither was Birthing Pod or any other deck except eldrazi come to think of it.
Most of those decks were fair-ish and didn't break the turn 4 rule and they still got chopped. Why should E-Tron be exempted?
In no uncertain terms ET was responsible for The Worst period in this format's history. There is no good reason to go soft on it...
Many thanks to HotP Studios. Special thanks to DNC for this great sig.
Marath, Will of the Wild Tokens!! / Karrthus, Tyrant of Jund Dragons! / Muzzio, Visionary Architect / Brago, King Eternal / Daretti, Scrap Savant / Narset, Enlightened Master / Alesha, Who Smiles at Death / Bruna, Light of Alabaster / Marchesa, the Black Rose / Iroas, God of Victory / Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury / Omnath, Locus of rage / Titania, Protector of Argoth / Kozilek, the Great Distortion
Modern
Elves / Titanshift / Merfolk
Actually, neither of those lands caused any problems at all when Eldrazi were limited to 8+ mana titans.
What broke the format was Wizards, in their infinite wisdom, printing stupid broken pushed [card=Thought-Knot Seer]overpowered Eldrazi at undercosted value.
These creatures are already good at their face-value cost. When you combine it with multiple 2+ mana lands, they're fairly ridiculous.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
The meta is just very hostile to decks like knightfall. You are a underdog to e tron, and titan shift. Affinity is sideboard dependant and your grixis death shadow matchup is 50/50 depending on your build. Basically you have some 50/50 matchups and some bad ones. Ramunap Excavator makes the deck better but ultimately can only be played as a 1 or 2 of and doesn't help the decks biggest issues. Its gonna take a significant meta shift or some cards being unbanned to make the more fair and not so combo oriented company decks good