Thought I'd point out since my warning a few pages back Ive suspended 2 users and handed out 5 infractions/warnings.
Read the rules guys. No flaming people because you disagree with them. No trolling just because you don't like their point of view, and no spamming because you think you can be above our rules.
This also SHOULD go without saying, but maybe don't bash the mods here either. We have a pretty tough job here. I didn't infract said post when someone did it. But hopefully the lack of two users for a week will slim that posting down too.
I think no bans/unbans is fine. I wouldve liked to see some unbans (i feel a lot of cards on the banlist are safe at this point) but modern is in a good place rn so im cool w/ it. Hopefully next b&r announcement will release sfm and jace so i can continue brewing control but till then im happy to grind away w/ abzan.
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UG Merfolk RG 8-Whack BWG Abzan midrange GRB Living End UWB Spirit Control
GU Kruphix's "Hug Assassin" RW Kalemne's "Play Fatties and Hope for the Best!" BUGW Atraxa's "All counters, all the time"
I don't have a twitter at the moment but I plan on making one later today so I can ask AF
"Are preemptive bans something you have considered for modern? It seems the GGT unban/ban, eldrazi winter, and Cruise/pod eras could've been prevented."
I'm trying to get a little info on how much they actually think about the format and I think this is a decent way to get that info without being too deliberate. Anyone want to steal my question so I don't have to make a twitter? Or help me touch it up a bit?
They don't test for Modern. Not that your question is bad, but they knew about the potential of Eldrazi in Modern, and wanted to roll the dice.
Did they test Reunion with Dredge? Almost certainly not.
There isn't much more to it, they don't test the format, and they dedicate as little resources as possible to it, outside Modern Masters.
I know, it's what I've been saying probably once per page on this whole thread. I'm trying to indirectly ask them if they have had any discussion or any intention of thinking more and earlier about the format. This was the best way I could think to phrase it where they may actually slip and give us some insight into that.
If you ban Traverse, DS gets a downgrade. All the versions of DS Ive seen that dont run Green, are more fair at power level. Traverse makes it hard to win when they can keep getting the next DS.
Its too bad, because I love the concept of Traverse as a card. Its just being abused, which is the problem. Green tutoring tends to get abused all the time (CoCo, Pod, Zenith, Chord, Stirrings).
If you ban Traverse, DS gets a downgrade. All the versions of DS Ive seen that dont run Green, are more fair at power level. Traverse makes it hard to win when they can keep getting the next DS.
Its too bad, because I love the concept of Traverse as a card. Its just being abused, which is the problem. Green tutoring tends to get abused all the time (CoCo, Pod, Zenith, Chord, Stirrings).
That's basically my thought on the issue. Banning Traverse removes a major reason to run GBx DS versions while allowing Grixis and other UBx builds to still compete which could be a good thing for Ux decks in modern. Tutors have always been problematic throughout MTGs history and I'd be pretty confident in saying that that's the likely ban if WotC decides to act.
I absolutely DO NOT want a Thoughtseize ban. I think it would be horrible for the format for many reasons. However...after Af's tweet yesterday about Street Wraith and Bauble coupled with the explanations for banning Probe in Modern and Vintage I think if something were to be banned from DS it would be Thoughtseize. Its the only card that matches the reason he gave for banning probe (its gives you information) and like probe it basically gives card advantage (opp discard instead of draw). Additionally Pros, many other high profile players, and the community in general have voiced dislike about too many discard spells because they're either unfun or warping the meta too much. Probe was basically free and was easily splashable and since Thoughtseize isn't it may be safe. Wizards also made comments about disliking its affect on standard (diff format I know but it's hard to know with Wizards. Look at Probe). Really hope they leave DS alone and I doubly hope they never ban Thoughtseize but I have little faith left in wizards.
Not that I want to bring that up again, but since someone else did! I think TS is not oppressive like other cards in the format, but it is exactly the kind of card that most players underestimate its power level. TS is stronger than any permission in Modern. 2 Life is NOTHING compared to derailing an opponents first few turns. That, coupled with absolute knowledge of what your opponent has in hand, makes for one of the most powerful turn 1 plays you can make in the format.
That being said, I dont see TS getting banned any time soon because it does not throttle any deck into Tier 1 on its own. If anything, Id prefer using TS as a reason for allowing stronger blue permission into modern.
I think discussing traverse the ulvenwald as a ban is a little premature. We don't even know for sure that jund is the best version of DS or if the meta can adapt to any/all of the flavors. We are pretty sure jund is the best version but the deck just hasn't existed long enough to know if Traverse is the real culprit or not. Plus the fact that there may not even BE a culprit.
Others here seem convinced it is broken and the numbers aren't reflecting that because people are bored of playing the deck or pros are trying to keep it on the hush until they actually have a tournament worth spiking. All may be true, but I just can't get behind that thinking. There really isn't a way to empirically look at these kind of claims. I've personally always just preferred to go by the numbers, except in the rare case when we all knew Bloom titan was getting banned so no one wanted to buy into the deck.
Basically:
I'm not sure banning traverse doesn't just make mardu or esper DS the new best deck.
and
If meta numbers combined with the "modern" rules like "tier 1 pre turn 4" deck aren't enough to call a deck broken, what metrics are we supposed to use?
The idea of a traverse ban is just so ridiculous. It's an underpowered mediocre card that only works with a specific setup.
I spent a lot of time laying this out but I don't think anything except Death's Shadow or Thoughtseize makes sense. Nothing else would nip the deck badly enough. Thoughtseize is the key card that makes it all work by being a pump spell that disrupts. Shadow is the enabled card. Nothing else is fair or sufficient.
Wraith is distantly possible but I don't believe it would do enough; they'd just find some other gitaxian spell that'd be hideously annoying (e.g. surgical) or play another cycler.
I know this thread is full of hyperbole (I've been a big part of that) but if they are dumb enough to ban thoughtseize but can't see preordain and SFM are fine then I am out for real.
Anyway, we at least had some discussion on AF twitter comments. I don't have twitter but is that something he does often, or usually just around announcements?
Not that I want to bring that up again, but since someone else did! I think TS is not oppressive like other cards in the format, but it is exactly the kind of card that most players underestimate its power level. TS is stronger than any permission in Modern. 2 Life is NOTHING compared to derailing an opponents first few turns. That, coupled with absolute knowledge of what your opponent has in hand, makes for one of the most powerful turn 1 plays you can make in the format.
That being said, I dont see TS getting banned any time soon because it does not throttle any deck into Tier 1 on its own. If anything, Id prefer using TS as a reason for allowing stronger blue permission into modern.
Stronger blue permission is even less likely now, especially when they skinned the Miracles deck alive with this announcement. If they won't even tolerate the only control deck in the game with a banning, the chances are even lower now for strong counterspell reprints. And even if they do, expect it to be mythic rarity because WOTC is a business that cares about profits first. I wouldn't be surprised if Modern Masters 3 had fetchlands in them just because they needed to hit their quarterly numbers to appease their shareholders.
The idea of a traverse ban is just so ridiculous. It's an underpowered mediocre card that only works with a specific setup.
I spent a lot of time laying this out but I don't think anything except Death's Shadow or Thoughtseize makes sense. Nothing else would nip the deck badly enough. Thoughtseize is the key card that makes it all work by being a pump spell that disrupts. Shadow is the enabled card. Nothing else is fair or sufficient.
Wraith is distantly possible but I don't believe it would do enough; they'd just find some other gitaxian spell that'd be hideously annoying (e.g. surgical) or play another cycler.
I don't think TS is a bannable card, it's presence, and ability to disrupt the degenerate stuff keeps several more cards off the ban list, and leaves decks viable. I think that if any discard spell were up for discussion (and I'm not convinced of that), Inquisition of Kozilek should be the one to go. But Duress and Despise will just slot in over it and nothing will really change.
The idea of a traverse ban is just so ridiculous. It's an underpowered mediocre card that only works with a specific setup.
I spent a lot of time laying this out but I don't think anything except Death's Shadow or Thoughtseize makes sense. Nothing else would nip the deck badly enough. Thoughtseize is the key card that makes it all work by being a pump spell that disrupts. Shadow is the enabled card. Nothing else is fair or sufficient.
Wraith is distantly possible but I don't believe it would do enough; they'd just find some other gitaxian spell that'd be hideously annoying (e.g. surgical) or play another cycler.
I don't think TS is a bannable card, it's presence, and ability to disrupt the degenerate stuff keeps several more cards off the ban list, and leaves decks viable. I think that if any discard spell were up for discussion (and I'm not convinced of that), Inquisition of Kozilek should be the one to go. But Duress and Despise will just slot in over it and nothing will really change.
Despise and Duress do not self-damage. That's what makes thoughtseize so dominant in the Shadow deck. Inquisition could easily be replaced by Blackmail but Thoughtseize has no replacement.
I believe Death's Shadow is the only likely ban that could properly weaken the deck -- anything else will just be played around except thoughtseize which is a very unlikely ban.
In a vacuum I think thoughtseize would be the best ban since it would severely weaken the deck without removing the archetype, but the splash damage to other decks and the format at large is probably too much.
If the goal is literally to only leave DS playable but to ban something, then in a vacuum, yes, Thoughtseize probably is the best card to ban. But as mentioned by pokken, this doesn't take into account other decks using it or how the meta would respond. The points being made against it are mostly valid but it doesn't change the fact it absolutely cannot be removed from the format.
I think development once admitted that TS was a mistake in retrospect. Again, I dont think they should ban it. Just make an as powerful permission card in blue, to match it. As I already stated, TS turn 1 is one of the most powerful turn 1 plays you can make in Modern. Im not sure of many others that are as powerful.
I think development once admitted that TS was a mistake in retrospect. Again, I dont think they should ban it. Just make an as powerful permission card in blue, to match it. As I already stated, TS turn 1 is one of the most powerful turn 1 plays you can make in Modern. Im not sure of many others that are as powerful.
I thought that they said the mistake was reprinting thoughtseize in standard again? Could be wrong, though.
Regardless, the reason it is played more than duress or the like isn't the lifeloss, as that only helps one type of deck - it's the ability to take any (nonland) card. Fair decks that have no way to answer huge tron planeswalkers or hexproof creatures or sideboard hate or the like now have a viable answer that gets significantly worse in the late game. It's sort of like aether vial or ancestral in a sense that turn 1 - amazing play; topdeck - not so much.
If we start banning things like TS based on shadow or the fact blue permission is weak, that is an insanely slippery slope we begin to head down and would probably lead to people demanding more good "answer" cards to be banned.
I understand the inherent crappiness of not being able to attack through bridge, but is it big enough of a problem to ban? I feel like if wizards were to go the way of banning prison hosers like that, they'd have to do blood moon simultaneously; if only for the fact they can explain it as "unfun cards hurting player enjoyment" or something to that effect.
SSG is a bit of a different case. Like with opal, it's "breaking" the fast mana "rule", only quoted because those are both pretty subjective as far as WOTC goes. But like opal, i don't think they are being abused to the point of actually being a concern - at least not yet. Being fast mana, there is an exceedingly likely chance that as more sets come out, wizards will accidentally print some crazy enabler. But as of right now, SSG is being used in decks that are either unsuccessful/ unrepresented on a large scale (sun & moon, grishoalbrand, living end) or basically ad nauseam, which is slaughtered by some of the most prevalent decks in the meta (jund/junk/DS variants).
As of now IMO, ensnaring bridge, SSG, and by proxy opal, are all pretty safe right now.
Yea, thats fair. SSG in particular, though, is a problem. I know Ad Nauseum needs it to win, but chalice on 1 turn 1 is essentially a pre-turn 4 kill more 99% of the decks in the format.
And yet there are exactly zero Tier 1 Guide-Chalice decks. Yep, sounds like a problem to me!
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
Not that I want to bring that up again, but since someone else did! I think TS is not oppressive like other cards in the format, but it is exactly the kind of card that most players underestimate its power level. TS is stronger than any permission in Modern. 2 Life is NOTHING compared to derailing an opponents first few turns. That, coupled with absolute knowledge of what your opponent has in hand, makes for one of the most powerful turn 1 plays you can make in the format.
That being said, I dont see TS getting banned any time soon because it does not throttle any deck into Tier 1 on its own. If anything, Id prefer using TS as a reason for allowing stronger blue permission into modern.
Stronger blue permission is even less likely now, especially when they skinned the Miracles deck alive with this announcement. If they won't even tolerate the only control deck in the game with a banning, the chances are even lower now for strong counterspell reprints. And even if they do, expect it to be mythic rarity because WOTC is a business that cares about profits first. I wouldn't be surprised if Modern Masters 3 had fetchlands in them just because they needed to hit their quarterly numbers to appease their shareholders.
Miracles was overtly (1/3rds - 2/3rs at times) the best deck in that format. They killed it off due to top time constraints and power. They didnt kill off permission... they killed off top.
that announcement says top wont come off our banlist... not they hate control.
Which is why I want a strong permission card, and leave TS alone
But we should agree at least that TS is incredibly powerful. Being on the receiving end of Turn 1 TS/IoK, Turn 2 a follow-up TS/IoK, I can tell you that the game is nearly over at that point, in many situations. Imagine mulling to 6 or 5 and then getting seized. Luckily we only have one card like TS. Everything else has varying limitations. Though I find IoK more powerful in many situations as well considering the average card cost in the format.
I tend to have a problem with discard in general, not because I think it shouldnt exist, but because too many players underestimate its potency, and yet turn around and complain about permission being too strong.
Not that I want to bring that up again, but since someone else did! I think TS is not oppressive like other cards in the format, but it is exactly the kind of card that most players underestimate its power level. TS is stronger than any permission in Modern. 2 Life is NOTHING compared to derailing an opponents first few turns. That, coupled with absolute knowledge of what your opponent has in hand, makes for one of the most powerful turn 1 plays you can make in the format.
That being said, I dont see TS getting banned any time soon because it does not throttle any deck into Tier 1 on its own. If anything, Id prefer using TS as a reason for allowing stronger blue permission into modern.
Stronger blue permission is even less likely now, especially when they skinned the Miracles deck alive with this announcement. If they won't even tolerate the only control deck in the game with a banning, the chances are even lower now for strong counterspell reprints. And even if they do, expect it to be mythic rarity because WOTC is a business that cares about profits first. I wouldn't be surprised if Modern Masters 3 had fetchlands in them just because they needed to hit their quarterly numbers to appease their shareholders.
Miracles was overtly (1/3rds - 2/3rs at times) the best deck in that format. They killed it off due to top time constraints and power. They didnt kill off permission... they killed off top.
that announcement says top wont come off our banlist... not they hate control.
This. I was letting it go, but the hyperbole of WOTC killing permission in legacy because of the SDT ban, is....well, hyperbolic.
Not that I want to bring that up again, but since someone else did! I think TS is not oppressive like other cards in the format, but it is exactly the kind of card that most players underestimate its power level. TS is stronger than any permission in Modern. 2 Life is NOTHING compared to derailing an opponents first few turns. That, coupled with absolute knowledge of what your opponent has in hand, makes for one of the most powerful turn 1 plays you can make in the format.
That being said, I dont see TS getting banned any time soon because it does not throttle any deck into Tier 1 on its own. If anything, Id prefer using TS as a reason for allowing stronger blue permission into modern.
Stronger blue permission is even less likely now, especially when they skinned the Miracles deck alive with this announcement. If they won't even tolerate the only control deck in the game with a banning, the chances are even lower now for strong counterspell reprints. And even if they do, expect it to be mythic rarity because WOTC is a business that cares about profits first. I wouldn't be surprised if Modern Masters 3 had fetchlands in them just because they needed to hit their quarterly numbers to appease their shareholders.
Miracles was overtly (1/3rds - 2/3rs at times) the best deck in that format. They killed it off due to top time constraints and power. They didnt kill off permission... they killed off top.
that announcement says top wont come off our banlist... not they hate control.
I don't have reason to believe that they like control, especially when they printed inferior permission named Censor in Amonkhet. Sure they didn't directly say that they hate control, but they didn't convince me that control is going to have a brighter future in Magic as a tier 1 contender.
I understand the inherent crappiness of not being able to attack through bridge, but is it big enough of a problem to ban? I feel like if wizards were to go the way of banning prison hosers like that, they'd have to do blood moon simultaneously; if only for the fact they can explain it as "unfun cards hurting player enjoyment" or something to that effect.
SSG is a bit of a different case. Like with opal, it's "breaking" the fast mana "rule", only quoted because those are both pretty subjective as far as WOTC goes. But like opal, i don't think they are being abused to the point of actually being a concern - at least not yet. Being fast mana, there is an exceedingly likely chance that as more sets come out, wizards will accidentally print some crazy enabler. But as of right now, SSG is being used in decks that are either unsuccessful/ unrepresented on a large scale (sun & moon, grishoalbrand, living end) or basically ad nauseam, which is slaughtered by some of the most prevalent decks in the meta (jund/junk/DS variants).
As of now IMO, ensnaring bridge, SSG, and by proxy opal, are all pretty safe right now.
Yea, thats fair. SSG in particular, though, is a problem. I know Ad Nauseum needs it to win, but chalice on 1 turn 1 is essentially a pre-turn 4 kill more 99% of the decks in the format.
And yet there are exactly zero Tier 1 Guide-Chalice decks. Yep, sounds like a problem to me!
Good point. Next time, I'll be sure to put "rule" in quotes and explain why I'm doing so...
Fast mana has always been either dangerous or outright broken in magic's history. There aren't any tier 1 decks abusing SSG. There is 1 deck using it to win pre-turn 4 (grishoalbrand), but that dies to itself far too regularly to be a threat. The basis of the argument was the broken thing SSG does more often- which is cheat out early blood moons and chalice. But again, as you can see over the course of the discussion and a fact both Kovo and I have brought up multiple times already to people who either didn't bother or care to read it, was that SSG is not a problem, but due to it's ability that can't be reasonably interacted with, should be watched. Not have a target on it's back, not be on the cusp of banning, just watched. Because if some white planeswalker or finisher were to somehow put r/w prison or something into tier 1 for any period of time, there's no way people wouldn't start complaining about that interaction.
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Read the rules guys. No flaming people because you disagree with them. No trolling just because you don't like their point of view, and no spamming because you think you can be above our rules.
This also SHOULD go without saying, but maybe don't bash the mods here either. We have a pretty tough job here. I didn't infract said post when someone did it. But hopefully the lack of two users for a week will slim that posting down too.
Back to the conversation. Keep it civil.
RG 8-Whack
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GRB Living End
UWB Spirit Control
GU Kruphix's "Hug Assassin"
RW Kalemne's "Play Fatties and Hope for the Best!"
BUGW Atraxa's "All counters, all the time"
"Are preemptive bans something you have considered for modern? It seems the GGT unban/ban, eldrazi winter, and Cruise/pod eras could've been prevented."
I'm trying to get a little info on how much they actually think about the format and I think this is a decent way to get that info without being too deliberate. Anyone want to steal my question so I don't have to make a twitter? Or help me touch it up a bit?
Did they test Reunion with Dredge? Almost certainly not.
There isn't much more to it, they don't test the format, and they dedicate as little resources as possible to it, outside Modern Masters.
Spirits
I know, it's what I've been saying probably once per page on this whole thread. I'm trying to indirectly ask them if they have had any discussion or any intention of thinking more and earlier about the format. This was the best way I could think to phrase it where they may actually slip and give us some insight into that.
Its too bad, because I love the concept of Traverse as a card. Its just being abused, which is the problem. Green tutoring tends to get abused all the time (CoCo, Pod, Zenith, Chord, Stirrings).
RUG Temur Deprive Delver
BUG Sultai Deprive Delver
That's basically my thought on the issue. Banning Traverse removes a major reason to run GBx DS versions while allowing Grixis and other UBx builds to still compete which could be a good thing for Ux decks in modern. Tutors have always been problematic throughout MTGs history and I'd be pretty confident in saying that that's the likely ban if WotC decides to act.
That being said, I dont see TS getting banned any time soon because it does not throttle any deck into Tier 1 on its own. If anything, Id prefer using TS as a reason for allowing stronger blue permission into modern.
RUG Temur Deprive Delver
BUG Sultai Deprive Delver
Others here seem convinced it is broken and the numbers aren't reflecting that because people are bored of playing the deck or pros are trying to keep it on the hush until they actually have a tournament worth spiking. All may be true, but I just can't get behind that thinking. There really isn't a way to empirically look at these kind of claims. I've personally always just preferred to go by the numbers, except in the rare case when we all knew Bloom titan was getting banned so no one wanted to buy into the deck.
Basically:
I'm not sure banning traverse doesn't just make mardu or esper DS the new best deck.
and
If meta numbers combined with the "modern" rules like "tier 1 pre turn 4" deck aren't enough to call a deck broken, what metrics are we supposed to use?
I spent a lot of time laying this out but I don't think anything except Death's Shadow or Thoughtseize makes sense. Nothing else would nip the deck badly enough. Thoughtseize is the key card that makes it all work by being a pump spell that disrupts. Shadow is the enabled card. Nothing else is fair or sufficient.
Wraith is distantly possible but I don't believe it would do enough; they'd just find some other gitaxian spell that'd be hideously annoying (e.g. surgical) or play another cycler.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
Anyway, we at least had some discussion on AF twitter comments. I don't have twitter but is that something he does often, or usually just around announcements?
Stronger blue permission is even less likely now, especially when they skinned the Miracles deck alive with this announcement. If they won't even tolerate the only control deck in the game with a banning, the chances are even lower now for strong counterspell reprints. And even if they do, expect it to be mythic rarity because WOTC is a business that cares about profits first. I wouldn't be surprised if Modern Masters 3 had fetchlands in them just because they needed to hit their quarterly numbers to appease their shareholders.
RUG Temur Deprive Delver
BUG Sultai Deprive Delver
I don't think TS is a bannable card, it's presence, and ability to disrupt the degenerate stuff keeps several more cards off the ban list, and leaves decks viable. I think that if any discard spell were up for discussion (and I'm not convinced of that), Inquisition of Kozilek should be the one to go. But Duress and Despise will just slot in over it and nothing will really change.
Despise and Duress do not self-damage. That's what makes thoughtseize so dominant in the Shadow deck. Inquisition could easily be replaced by Blackmail but Thoughtseize has no replacement.
I believe Death's Shadow is the only likely ban that could properly weaken the deck -- anything else will just be played around except thoughtseize which is a very unlikely ban.
In a vacuum I think thoughtseize would be the best ban since it would severely weaken the deck without removing the archetype, but the splash damage to other decks and the format at large is probably too much.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
RUG Temur Deprive Delver
BUG Sultai Deprive Delver
I thought that they said the mistake was reprinting thoughtseize in standard again? Could be wrong, though.
Regardless, the reason it is played more than duress or the like isn't the lifeloss, as that only helps one type of deck - it's the ability to take any (nonland) card. Fair decks that have no way to answer huge tron planeswalkers or hexproof creatures or sideboard hate or the like now have a viable answer that gets significantly worse in the late game. It's sort of like aether vial or ancestral in a sense that turn 1 - amazing play; topdeck - not so much.
If we start banning things like TS based on shadow or the fact blue permission is weak, that is an insanely slippery slope we begin to head down and would probably lead to people demanding more good "answer" cards to be banned.
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Miracles was overtly (1/3rds - 2/3rs at times) the best deck in that format. They killed it off due to top time constraints and power. They didnt kill off permission... they killed off top.
that announcement says top wont come off our banlist... not they hate control.
But we should agree at least that TS is incredibly powerful. Being on the receiving end of Turn 1 TS/IoK, Turn 2 a follow-up TS/IoK, I can tell you that the game is nearly over at that point, in many situations. Imagine mulling to 6 or 5 and then getting seized. Luckily we only have one card like TS. Everything else has varying limitations. Though I find IoK more powerful in many situations as well considering the average card cost in the format.
I tend to have a problem with discard in general, not because I think it shouldnt exist, but because too many players underestimate its potency, and yet turn around and complain about permission being too strong.
RUG Temur Deprive Delver
BUG Sultai Deprive Delver
This. I was letting it go, but the hyperbole of WOTC killing permission in legacy because of the SDT ban, is....well, hyperbolic.
RUG Temur Deprive Delver
BUG Sultai Deprive Delver
I don't have reason to believe that they like control, especially when they printed inferior permission named Censor in Amonkhet. Sure they didn't directly say that they hate control, but they didn't convince me that control is going to have a brighter future in Magic as a tier 1 contender.
Good point. Next time, I'll be sure to put "rule" in quotes and explain why I'm doing so...
Fast mana has always been either dangerous or outright broken in magic's history. There aren't any tier 1 decks abusing SSG. There is 1 deck using it to win pre-turn 4 (grishoalbrand), but that dies to itself far too regularly to be a threat. The basis of the argument was the broken thing SSG does more often- which is cheat out early blood moons and chalice. But again, as you can see over the course of the discussion and a fact both Kovo and I have brought up multiple times already to people who either didn't bother or care to read it, was that SSG is not a problem, but due to it's ability that can't be reasonably interacted with, should be watched. Not have a target on it's back, not be on the cusp of banning, just watched. Because if some white planeswalker or finisher were to somehow put r/w prison or something into tier 1 for any period of time, there's no way people wouldn't start complaining about that interaction.
Affinity
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Mardu Nahiri
Forcing people to merge with twitch is stupid