I didn't say they were popular because control was good, but they were both popular formats that had top tier control decks, so I don't think the hatred for a format correlates to control being good.
People didn't like when dragons was the best deck, people didn't like when UWx rev decks where the best decks. People liked when Coco decks and Naya decks (aka creature focused decks) where the best thing to be doing. Formats shift a lot and UW rev was only on top for the time between two set releases and this is more the case with both your examples.
nearly anytime that it has been a viable strategy in standard the format has been widely hated
The last two times I remember blue control decks being good in Standard was Esper Dragons in Khans Standard, which was a great format, and UW Control in RTR/THS, which was also a pretty well liked Standard.
Khans and RTR standard where both popular not because control was good but because mana was good and the formats allowed for 3 color good stuff decks which is essentially what Esper dragons was(and thoughtseize defined that format more than a sometimes counterspell did). Innistrad/RTR standard when UWx control was good was only for a very short period also which was by design as the rest of the block was full of anti-control cards.
Control was good for a long time in INN/RTR. Even in Scars/INN there were Ux control decks using Nephalia Drownyard as a wincon. With AVR Restoration Angel/Snap beats came popular. With RTR and Sphinx's Revelation UWx control was always in standard and went between Esper (drownyard) and UWR. With Gatecrash UWR, Grixis, and Bant control decks all became viable and popular. Then into Theros a straight UW deck using Elixir of immortality/Elspeth to win was good. That was pretty much the end of control though. And those were super popular formats too.
nearly anytime that it has been a viable strategy in standard the format has been widely hated
The last two times I remember blue control decks being good in Standard was Esper Dragons in Khans Standard, which was a great format, and UW Control in RTR/THS, which was also a pretty well liked Standard.
Khans and RTR standard where both popular not because control was good but because mana was good and the formats allowed for 3 color good stuff decks which is essentially what Esper dragons was(and thoughtseize defined that format more than a sometimes counterspell did). Innistrad/RTR standard when UWx control was good was only for a very short period also which was by design as the rest of the block was full of anti-control cards.
Control was good for a long time in INN/RTR. Even in Scars/INN there were Ux control decks using Nephalia Drownyard as a wincon. With AVR Restoration Angel/Snap beats came popular. With RTR and Sphinx's Revelation UWx control was always in standard and went between Esper (drownyard) and UWR. With Gatecrash UWR, Grixis, and Bant control decks all became viable and popular. Then into Theros a straight UW deck using Elixir of immortality/Elspeth to win was good. That was pretty much the end of control though. And those were super popular formats too.
Tempo was more popular than control. IMO UWx Rev decks were the last real control decks in standard, with the win con of elixir of immortality and decking your opponent. Resto/Snap decks were UW mid-range that ran things like runechanter's pike, Innistrad/Scars was a real mid-range heavy era that saw the Titans and UW delver as pretty much the best decks but again that was a Standard format with the Titans, Delver, Resto, Mana leak, Ponder, Scour, Git Probe, Geist, Snapcaster...... Control actually kinda sucked during that Standard because tempo was so good at the time.
Pure Control decks took a big drop in RTR after Gatecrash and even more after Dragon's Maze. Sure mid-range deck ran Rev but that is simply because a-Rev is a great card, and b-mana was so good you could splash for it so easily that if you where on a mid-range creature deck it was hard to justify not running it
I didn't say they were popular because control was good, but they were both popular formats that had top tier control decks, so I don't think the hatred for a format correlates to control being good.
People didn't like when dragons was the best deck, people didn't like when UWx rev decks where the best decks. People liked when Coco decks and Naya decks (aka creature focused decks) where the best thing to be doing. Formats shift a lot and UW rev was only on top for the time between two set releases and this is more the case with both your examples.
Even though rtr/theros was a somewhat 3 deck format a lot of people especially pros liked it. Sure Pack Rat was annoying and rev decks were there behind mono black devotion but that did not stop people from praising the skill required in that format. That was the last format I actually liked in standard until I completely switched to modern. Congrol being a top tier deck does not correlate for a bad standard format nor does a deck being ahead of others. We see that with the second point in modern. Death's Shadow is clearly the best thing to be doing in general in modern but people are enjoying modern more now than the matchup lottery it was during the dredge and aggro/combo era before the bans.
Modern definitely felt more luck based when dredge was on top
Remember when we had people in this thread defending dredge and upset how quick and rash WOTC was? The format is a hell of a lot better with GGT and Git Probe banned.
Khans and RTR standard where both popular not because control was good but because mana was good and the formats allowed for 3 color good stuff decks which is essentially what Esper dragons was
That's not even close to describing Esper Dragons. It ran 8-10 counterspells, board wipes, sac spells, card draw, and had to be highly synergistic with many of the card choices. It was a control deck that eventually tapped out to play a finisher, then protected its finisher with counterspells and removal. How in the world is this "3 color good stuff"??? Good Stuff decks are full of individually powerful cards that stand on their own. Abzan was a good stuff deck, Esper Dragons was not.
Additionally, Esper Dragons was an effective control deck because it had fairly good tools to deal with most threats. It had hard counters at 2cmc and the 3cmc counter allowed scry. Many of the lands also scry'd. The main board wipe did not kill the main win condition, which had conditional hexproof. And it had Dig Through Time in order to stabilize itself in the mid to late game. The deck was great until literal "Good Stuff.dec" became the norm, and Abzan splashed 4 colors for Crackling Doom main deck.
Modern could greatly benefit from a deck like this. A deck that plays some answers, drops a proactive, game-threatening win condition, and then protects it while it refuels. A vanilla 4/5 beatstick isn't going to get the job done, our counterspell suite is extremely narrow, our card draw is embarrassingly anemic, and we struggle to win games in a timely manner.
Khans and RTR standard where both popular not because control was good but because mana was good and the formats allowed for 3 color good stuff decks which is essentially what Esper dragons was
That's not even close to describing Esper Dragons. It ran 8-10 counterspells, board wipes, sac spells, card draw, and had to be highly synergistic with many of the card choices. It was a control deck that eventually tapped out to play a finisher, then protected its finisher with counterspells and removal. How in the world is this "3 color good stuff"??? Good Stuff decks are full of individually powerful cards that stand on their own. Abzan was a good stuff deck, Esper Dragons was not.
Additionally, Esper Dragons was an effective control deck because it had fairly good tools to deal with most threats. It had hard counters at 2cmc and the 3cmc counter allowed scry. Many of the lands also scry'd. The main board wipe did not kill the main win condition, which had conditional hexproof. And it had Dig Through Time in order to stabilize itself in the mid to late game. The deck was great until literal "Good Stuff.dec" became the norm, and Abzan splashed 4 colors for Crackling Doom main deck.
Modern could greatly benefit from a deck like this. A deck that plays some answers, drops a proactive, game-threatening win condition, and then protects it while it refuels. A vanilla 4/5 beatstick isn't going to get the job done, our counterspell suite is extremely narrow, our card draw is embarrassingly anemic, and we struggle to win games in a timely manner.
The new dusk//dawn might be able to help. Geist of saint traft is a great finisher and is mostly stopped by the prevalence of goyf with a conditional wipe to get rid of good blocks could work.
Khans and RTR standard where both popular not because control was good but because mana was good and the formats allowed for 3 color good stuff decks which is essentially what Esper dragons was
That's not even close to describing Esper Dragons. It ran 8-10 counterspells, board wipes, sac spells, card draw, and had to be highly synergistic with many of the card choices. It was a control deck that eventually tapped out to play a finisher, then protected its finisher with counterspells and removal. How in the world is this "3 color good stuff"??? Good Stuff decks are full of individually powerful cards that stand on their own. Abzan was a good stuff deck, Esper Dragons was not.
Additionally, Esper Dragons was an effective control deck because it had fairly good tools to deal with most threats. It had hard counters at 2cmc and the 3cmc counter allowed scry. Many of the lands also scry'd. The main board wipe did not kill the main win condition, which had conditional hexproof. And it had Dig Through Time in order to stabilize itself in the mid to late game. The deck was great until literal "Good Stuff.dec" became the norm, and Abzan splashed 4 colors for Crackling Doom main deck.
Modern could greatly benefit from a deck like this. A deck that plays some answers, drops a proactive, game-threatening win condition, and then protects it while it refuels. A vanilla 4/5 beatstick isn't going to get the job done, our counterspell suite is extremely narrow, our card draw is embarrassingly anemic, and we struggle to win games in a timely manner.
This is why I keep thinking that Grixis Madcap/Emperion and Esper Gifts are probably stronger Control decks than results would indicate. Both of them have strong removal suites, can drop a game-threatening win-con that the opponent has to kill by turns 4-5, and have access to Logic Knot, which should still be enough to protect Platinum Emperion, Blazing Archon, Elesh Norn, or a similar card from removal.
Khans and RTR standard where both popular not because control was good but because mana was good and the formats allowed for 3 color good stuff decks which is essentially what Esper dragons was
That's not even close to describing Esper Dragons. It ran 8-10 counterspells, board wipes, sac spells, card draw, and had to be highly synergistic with many of the card choices. It was a control deck that eventually tapped out to play a finisher, then protected its finisher with counterspells and removal. How in the world is this "3 color good stuff"??? Good Stuff decks are full of individually powerful cards that stand on their own. Abzan was a good stuff deck, Esper Dragons was not.
Additionally, Esper Dragons was an effective control deck because it had fairly good tools to deal with most threats. It had hard counters at 2cmc and the 3cmc counter allowed scry. Many of the lands also scry'd. The main board wipe did not kill the main win condition, which had conditional hexproof. And it had Dig Through Time in order to stabilize itself in the mid to late game. The deck was great until literal "Good Stuff.dec" became the norm, and Abzan splashed 4 colors for Crackling Doom main deck.
Modern could greatly benefit from a deck like this. A deck that plays some answers, drops a proactive, game-threatening win condition, and then protects it while it refuels. A vanilla 4/5 beatstick isn't going to get the job done, our counterspell suite is extremely narrow, our card draw is embarrassingly anemic, and we struggle to win games in a timely manner.
The new dusk//dawn might be able to help. Geist of saint traft is a great finisher and is mostly stopped by the prevalence of goyf with a conditional wipe to get rid of good blocks could work.
Maybe, (and it also would definitely help against decks like Bant Eldrazi), but Geist still won't be able to get through against decks like Affinity and Abzan Company. I just wish that there was a 4-mana boardwipe in white or black that destroyed all creatures with CMC 2 or less. That would be perfect for Geist and would let it get through against very deck except for Bant Eldrazi and Tron.
People liked when Coco decks and Naya decks (aka creature focused decks) where the best thing to be doing.
Oh yeah man, people LOVED Bant Coco, so much that Standards stopped firing during that time frame. People love standard so much right now that WotC is having to throw out incentive after incentive to get people to play their 2 deck format. Do you have a single fact to back up anything you just said other than an extremely vague "people"?
People liked when Coco decks and Naya decks (aka creature focused decks) where the best thing to be doing.
Oh yeah man, people LOVED Bant Coco, so much that Standards stopped firing during that time frame. People love standard so much right now that WotC is having to throw out incentive after incentive to get people to play their 2 deck format. Do you have a single fact to back up anything you just said other than an extremely vague "people"?
I've gotta agree. I stopped following standard when Sphinx's Revelation rotated out. For me that was the death of standard.
I hate coco as a card. Let me jam pack my deck full of good stuff so this good stuff card will be more good stuff.
So dumb that RNG card replaced Birthing Pod which had more interaction and required more skill to play. I'm excited to see how Death's Shadow will have an effect on the format, I'm all for grindy and interactive games. Maybe one day stack interaction will be a thing?
People liked when Coco decks and Naya decks (aka creature focused decks) where the best thing to be doing.
Oh yeah man, people LOVED Bant Coco, so much that Standards stopped firing during that time frame. People love standard so much right now that WotC is having to throw out incentive after incentive to get people to play their 2 deck format. Do you have a single fact to back up anything you just said other than an extremely vague "people"?
You also missed the part where those decks were literally averaging over 800 dollars and worth more than some top tier modern decks.
I don't think many of these comments I've been reading over the past few pages are true at all.
When regarding Standard, or any other format, when the best deck, is the best deck by a mile. That's where people encounter most emotional issues with a format. It may or may not be empirically true, but the emotion of distaste is there, and at the rate the game changes, that distaste for months on end can ruin a good customer.
More often than not, this is what has been happening to Standard for far too long. That is why Standard is in shambles, it's not a direct correlation with Reflector Mage, or Collected Company or Sphinx's Revelation, it's the combination and accumulation of those and more.
Meanwhile in Modern, we are beginning to experience this with Dredge, Infect, Suicide Blue, and recently nerfed those. Now we may be on the train to take something away from Death's Shadow.
I don't want Modern to be Standard, Modern needs to be where the grown-ups play, and just deal with it, more like we deal with it in Legacy. We need to join together and stop these actions they take on our format. R&D is complete trash, that's why we are in this situation, and if we don't strike back, they won't change their methods.
I really hope something in Shadow isn't banned, but I fully expect it due to WOTC's thoughts regarding modern. The format is crazy interactive right now.
If Death shadow, Bauble or Wraith is banned, the format will definitely now face the issue of
Tron, Eldrazi Tron, Scapeshift decks and Bant Eldrazi dominating the format, while there's just enough interactive decks to beat down aggro so that big mana decks thrive.
All banning death's shadow is going to do is create an incredibly obvious issue, I fully expect the format to look like the GP Brisbane top 32 if it occurs.
I dunno though, the banning of dredge was an incredibly healthy and appropriate ban, I think the format has benefited greatly from it. How the format would look like with Git probe I'm not sure, but the format didn't get worse because of it.
At my LGS on Modern nights, I can usually hear multiple people each night say something along the lines of "sigh... everyone's playing Death's Shadow.." with a frown.
I don't personally mind it and am in fact building a Death's Shadow deck of my own, but I can totally see where the ill feelings come from. You can take the Death's Shadow black core and put a number of different configurations around it with various color combinations and have success. Jund, Abzan, Sultai, Esper, Grixis. It's actually crazy.
It is likely not ban-worthy yet. It may depend on the win percentages that we don't have perfect data for. I'm hearing that some people are posting just amazing win percentages with it.
Its banworthy for the same reasons twin was, so if it does get banned, wizards can atleast be consistent :/
I do think that the rise of death's shadow (coupled with the probe/troll ban) is the best change to modern we've had in atleast a year and a half, probably longer.
That being said, it is a shame that we so many shadow decks compared to anything else, but I'd rather have that than have tons of non-interactivity.
Shadow won't be banned. I think the potential and most likely target is Street Wraith, the core card that is enabler of Death's Shadow and Delve/Delirium shenanigans. It is the only true card that can be banned without murdering the archetype. Bauble only sees play in Green versions, and Thoughtseize would be a joke of a ban(Working under the premise that DS/TS/Wraith are the must 4-ofs in order to play Death's Shadow efficiently).
All in all, it is shaping to be an interesting period going forward. As of now, the metagame didn't quite adjust to Shadow, since all previous archetypes that can support it are going that way. Also, an interesting fact is that decks that used Lightning Bolt as a piece of interaction primarly(Jund for example) and not as their win-con(Grixis Ctrl for example) are cutting down on Bolts which seems like a pretty big change. Modern's Brainstorm is no longer an auto 4-of. https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/612047#paper This seems Jund warping their deck in order to remain competitive(This isn't strictly a bad thing, but such change is at least something to keep present come banlist announcement time).
Finally, it is very similar to Splinter Twin, but a little worse since more archetypes are homogenized in the metagame transition, with Big mana decks being such players in this meta. Beign said this, this metagame seems fun and there are too many viable strategies to even think of a "stale" metagame. It seems that finally every player can play whatever archetype they like and be competitive. Control could use some tools to be a little more comptetitive at big events such as GPs, and i'm expecting Wizards to act on that matter.
People liked when Coco decks and Naya decks (aka creature focused decks) where the best thing to be doing.
Oh yeah man, people LOVED Bant Coco, so much that Standards stopped firing during that time frame. People love standard so much right now that WotC is having to throw out incentive after incentive to get people to play their 2 deck format. Do you have a single fact to back up anything you just said other than an extremely vague "people"?
Bant Coco was a deck in the Dragons standard that another poster was telling me was so beloved recently.
Khans and RTR standard where both popular not because control was good but because mana was good and the formats allowed for 3 color good stuff decks which is essentially what Esper dragons was
That's not even close to describing Esper Dragons. It ran 8-10 counterspells, board wipes, sac spells, card draw, and had to be highly synergistic with many of the card choices. It was a control deck that eventually tapped out to play a finisher, then protected its finisher with counterspells and removal. How in the world is this "3 color good stuff"??? Good Stuff decks are full of individually powerful cards that stand on their own. Abzan was a good stuff deck, Esper Dragons was not.
Additionally, Esper Dragons was an effective control deck because it had fairly good tools to deal with most threats. It had hard counters at 2cmc and the 3cmc counter allowed scry. Many of the lands also scry'd. The main board wipe did not kill the main win condition, which had conditional hexproof. And it had Dig Through Time in order to stabilize itself in the mid to late game. The deck was great until literal "Good Stuff.dec" became the norm, and Abzan splashed 4 colors for Crackling Doom main deck.
Modern could greatly benefit from a deck like this. A deck that plays some answers, drops a proactive, game-threatening win condition, and then protects it while it refuels. A vanilla 4/5 beatstick isn't going to get the job done, our counterspell suite is extremely narrow, our card draw is embarrassingly anemic, and we struggle to win games in a timely manner.
Khans and RTR standard where both popular not because control was good but because mana was good and the formats allowed for 3 color good stuff decks which is essentially what Esper dragons was
That's not even close to describing Esper Dragons. It ran 8-10 counterspells, board wipes, sac spells, card draw, and had to be highly synergistic with many of the card choices. It was a control deck that eventually tapped out to play a finisher, then protected its finisher with counterspells and removal. How in the world is this "3 color good stuff"??? Good Stuff decks are full of individually powerful cards that stand on their own. Abzan was a good stuff deck, Esper Dragons was not.
Additionally, Esper Dragons was an effective control deck because it had fairly good tools to deal with most threats. It had hard counters at 2cmc and the 3cmc counter allowed scry. Many of the lands also scry'd. The main board wipe did not kill the main win condition, which had conditional hexproof. And it had Dig Through Time in order to stabilize itself in the mid to late game. The deck was great until literal "Good Stuff.dec" became the norm, and Abzan splashed 4 colors for Crackling Doom main deck.
Modern could greatly benefit from a deck like this. A deck that plays some answers, drops a proactive, game-threatening win condition, and then protects it while it refuels. A vanilla 4/5 beatstick isn't going to get the job done, our counterspell suite is extremely narrow, our card draw is embarrassingly anemic, and we struggle to win games in a timely manner.
At my LGS on Modern nights, I can usually hear multiple people each night say something along the lines of "sigh... everyone's playing Death's Shadow.." with a frown.
I don't personally mind it and am in fact building a Death's Shadow deck of my own, but I can totally see where the ill feelings come from. You can take the Death's Shadow black core and put a number of different configurations around it with various color combinations and have success. Jund, Abzan, Sultai, Esper, Grixis. It's actually crazy.
It is likely not ban-worthy yet. It may depend on the win percentages that we don't have perfect data for. I'm hearing that some people are posting just amazing win percentages with it.
Why would you make Esper or Grixis Death's Shadow deck? Isn't the entire point of the deck that Traverse gives you an extra 4 copies of Death's Shadow and that Goyf works as a backup creature that is similar to Death's Shadow?
Why would you make Esper or Grixis Death's Shadow deck? Isn't the entire point of the deck that Traverse gives you an extra 4 copies of Death's Shadow and that Goyf works as a backup creature that is similar to Death's Shadow?
Because Delver is terrible in Modern and Death's Shadow is generally better?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Well, I can saw a woman in two, but you won't wanna look in the box when I'm through.
At my LGS on Modern nights, I can usually hear multiple people each night say something along the lines of "sigh... everyone's playing Death's Shadow.." with a frown.
I don't personally mind it and am in fact building a Death's Shadow deck of my own, but I can totally see where the ill feelings come from. You can take the Death's Shadow black core and put a number of different configurations around it with various color combinations and have success. Jund, Abzan, Sultai, Esper, Grixis. It's actually crazy.
It is likely not ban-worthy yet. It may depend on the win percentages that we don't have perfect data for. I'm hearing that some people are posting just amazing win percentages with it.
Why would you make Esper or Grixis Death's Shadow deck? Isn't the entire point of the deck that Traverse gives you an extra 4 copies of Death's Shadow and that Goyf works as a backup creature that is similar to Death's Shadow?
People liked when Coco decks and Naya decks (aka creature focused decks) where the best thing to be doing.
Oh yeah man, people LOVED Bant Coco, so much that Standards stopped firing during that time frame. People love standard so much right now that WotC is having to throw out incentive after incentive to get people to play their 2 deck format. Do you have a single fact to back up anything you just said other than an extremely vague "people"?
Bant Coco was a deck in the Dragons standard that another poster was telling me was so beloved recently.
Esper Dragons had long stopped being a deck by the time Eldritch Moon came out.
People didn't like when dragons was the best deck, people didn't like when UWx rev decks where the best decks. People liked when Coco decks and Naya decks (aka creature focused decks) where the best thing to be doing. Formats shift a lot and UW rev was only on top for the time between two set releases and this is more the case with both your examples.
Control was good for a long time in INN/RTR. Even in Scars/INN there were Ux control decks using Nephalia Drownyard as a wincon. With AVR Restoration Angel/Snap beats came popular. With RTR and Sphinx's Revelation UWx control was always in standard and went between Esper (drownyard) and UWR. With Gatecrash UWR, Grixis, and Bant control decks all became viable and popular. Then into Theros a straight UW deck using Elixir of immortality/Elspeth to win was good. That was pretty much the end of control though. And those were super popular formats too.
Tempo was more popular than control. IMO UWx Rev decks were the last real control decks in standard, with the win con of elixir of immortality and decking your opponent. Resto/Snap decks were UW mid-range that ran things like runechanter's pike, Innistrad/Scars was a real mid-range heavy era that saw the Titans and UW delver as pretty much the best decks but again that was a Standard format with the Titans, Delver, Resto, Mana leak, Ponder, Scour, Git Probe, Geist, Snapcaster...... Control actually kinda sucked during that Standard because tempo was so good at the time.
Pure Control decks took a big drop in RTR after Gatecrash and even more after Dragon's Maze. Sure mid-range deck ran Rev but that is simply because a-Rev is a great card, and b-mana was so good you could splash for it so easily that if you where on a mid-range creature deck it was hard to justify not running it
Even though rtr/theros was a somewhat 3 deck format a lot of people especially pros liked it. Sure Pack Rat was annoying and rev decks were there behind mono black devotion but that did not stop people from praising the skill required in that format. That was the last format I actually liked in standard until I completely switched to modern. Congrol being a top tier deck does not correlate for a bad standard format nor does a deck being ahead of others. We see that with the second point in modern. Death's Shadow is clearly the best thing to be doing in general in modern but people are enjoying modern more now than the matchup lottery it was during the dredge and aggro/combo era before the bans.
Remember when we had people in this thread defending dredge and upset how quick and rash WOTC was? The format is a hell of a lot better with GGT and Git Probe banned.
That's not even close to describing Esper Dragons. It ran 8-10 counterspells, board wipes, sac spells, card draw, and had to be highly synergistic with many of the card choices. It was a control deck that eventually tapped out to play a finisher, then protected its finisher with counterspells and removal. How in the world is this "3 color good stuff"??? Good Stuff decks are full of individually powerful cards that stand on their own. Abzan was a good stuff deck, Esper Dragons was not.
Additionally, Esper Dragons was an effective control deck because it had fairly good tools to deal with most threats. It had hard counters at 2cmc and the 3cmc counter allowed scry. Many of the lands also scry'd. The main board wipe did not kill the main win condition, which had conditional hexproof. And it had Dig Through Time in order to stabilize itself in the mid to late game. The deck was great until literal "Good Stuff.dec" became the norm, and Abzan splashed 4 colors for Crackling Doom main deck.
Modern could greatly benefit from a deck like this. A deck that plays some answers, drops a proactive, game-threatening win condition, and then protects it while it refuels. A vanilla 4/5 beatstick isn't going to get the job done, our counterspell suite is extremely narrow, our card draw is embarrassingly anemic, and we struggle to win games in a timely manner.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
The new dusk//dawn might be able to help. Geist of saint traft is a great finisher and is mostly stopped by the prevalence of goyf with a conditional wipe to get rid of good blocks could work.
Give me a Preordain unban alongside a BBE unban and I'd be pretty happy.
This is why I keep thinking that Grixis Madcap/Emperion and Esper Gifts are probably stronger Control decks than results would indicate. Both of them have strong removal suites, can drop a game-threatening win-con that the opponent has to kill by turns 4-5, and have access to Logic Knot, which should still be enough to protect Platinum Emperion, Blazing Archon, Elesh Norn, or a similar card from removal.
Maybe, (and it also would definitely help against decks like Bant Eldrazi), but Geist still won't be able to get through against decks like Affinity and Abzan Company. I just wish that there was a 4-mana boardwipe in white or black that destroyed all creatures with CMC 2 or less. That would be perfect for Geist and would let it get through against very deck except for Bant Eldrazi and Tron.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Oh yeah man, people LOVED Bant Coco, so much that Standards stopped firing during that time frame. People love standard so much right now that WotC is having to throw out incentive after incentive to get people to play their 2 deck format. Do you have a single fact to back up anything you just said other than an extremely vague "people"?
I've gotta agree. I stopped following standard when Sphinx's Revelation rotated out. For me that was the death of standard.
I hate coco as a card. Let me jam pack my deck full of good stuff so this good stuff card will be more good stuff.
So dumb that RNG card replaced Birthing Pod which had more interaction and required more skill to play. I'm excited to see how Death's Shadow will have an effect on the format, I'm all for grindy and interactive games. Maybe one day stack interaction will be a thing?
You also missed the part where those decks were literally averaging over 800 dollars and worth more than some top tier modern decks.
When regarding Standard, or any other format, when the best deck, is the best deck by a mile. That's where people encounter most emotional issues with a format. It may or may not be empirically true, but the emotion of distaste is there, and at the rate the game changes, that distaste for months on end can ruin a good customer.
More often than not, this is what has been happening to Standard for far too long. That is why Standard is in shambles, it's not a direct correlation with Reflector Mage, or Collected Company or Sphinx's Revelation, it's the combination and accumulation of those and more.
Meanwhile in Modern, we are beginning to experience this with Dredge, Infect, Suicide Blue, and recently nerfed those. Now we may be on the train to take something away from Death's Shadow.
I don't want Modern to be Standard, Modern needs to be where the grown-ups play, and just deal with it, more like we deal with it in Legacy. We need to join together and stop these actions they take on our format. R&D is complete trash, that's why we are in this situation, and if we don't strike back, they won't change their methods.
If Death shadow, Bauble or Wraith is banned, the format will definitely now face the issue of
Tron, Eldrazi Tron, Scapeshift decks and Bant Eldrazi dominating the format, while there's just enough interactive decks to beat down aggro so that big mana decks thrive.
All banning death's shadow is going to do is create an incredibly obvious issue, I fully expect the format to look like the GP Brisbane top 32 if it occurs.
I dunno though, the banning of dredge was an incredibly healthy and appropriate ban, I think the format has benefited greatly from it. How the format would look like with Git probe I'm not sure, but the format didn't get worse because of it.
I don't personally mind it and am in fact building a Death's Shadow deck of my own, but I can totally see where the ill feelings come from. You can take the Death's Shadow black core and put a number of different configurations around it with various color combinations and have success. Jund, Abzan, Sultai, Esper, Grixis. It's actually crazy.
It is likely not ban-worthy yet. It may depend on the win percentages that we don't have perfect data for. I'm hearing that some people are posting just amazing win percentages with it.
UBRGrixis Kiki Control
BGUSultai Shadow
GWRBushwhacker Zoo
EDH:
BGU Sidisi, Brood Tyrant
UBR Marchesa, the Black Rose
GWU Roon of the Hidden Realm
I do think that the rise of death's shadow (coupled with the probe/troll ban) is the best change to modern we've had in atleast a year and a half, probably longer.
That being said, it is a shame that we so many shadow decks compared to anything else, but I'd rather have that than have tons of non-interactivity.
All in all, it is shaping to be an interesting period going forward. As of now, the metagame didn't quite adjust to Shadow, since all previous archetypes that can support it are going that way. Also, an interesting fact is that decks that used Lightning Bolt as a piece of interaction primarly(Jund for example) and not as their win-con(Grixis Ctrl for example) are cutting down on Bolts which seems like a pretty big change. Modern's Brainstorm is no longer an auto 4-of. https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/612047#paper This seems Jund warping their deck in order to remain competitive(This isn't strictly a bad thing, but such change is at least something to keep present come banlist announcement time).
Finally, it is very similar to Splinter Twin, but a little worse since more archetypes are homogenized in the metagame transition, with Big mana decks being such players in this meta. Beign said this, this metagame seems fun and there are too many viable strategies to even think of a "stale" metagame. It seems that finally every player can play whatever archetype they like and be competitive. Control could use some tools to be a little more comptetitive at big events such as GPs, and i'm expecting Wizards to act on that matter.
Bant Coco was a deck in the Dragons standard that another poster was telling me was so beloved recently.
Siege Rhino nuff said
We have decks like you described Jund, and Bant Eldrazi
Why would you make Esper or Grixis Death's Shadow deck? Isn't the entire point of the deck that Traverse gives you an extra 4 copies of Death's Shadow and that Goyf works as a backup creature that is similar to Death's Shadow?
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Because Delver is terrible in Modern and Death's Shadow is generally better?
Performance wise per dollar you spend, since you are saving on both Tarmogoyf and Misrha's Bauble, it's an amazing budget alternative.
Esper Dragons had long stopped being a deck by the time Eldritch Moon came out.
On a separate note, I believe that a splinter Twin unban would be completely fair. Fatal push is another answer we have to the combo.
JundBGR
RW Blood MoonRW
Pauper
Delver U
Elves G
Control B
Commander
Edgar Markov BRW
Captain Sisay GW
Niv-Mizzet, Parun UR
Tymna and Ravos WB