What's bull is 'No we cant have Preordain because X, we cant have Ponder because X, we cant have SFM because X, we cant have Twin because X, and we cant have Jace because X'.
Its garbage. :]
I dont care if its the best PW printed, who's second? Lily? Which of her 2 3cmc versions?
We can (and I dont mean you and I, the royal 'we') argue if GDS is blue or not all day, but if/when DS eats a bullet, you think Grixis is sticking around at the top tier?
No, it would become Grixis Delver again, down in Deck Creation.
EDIT: And I dont mean to offend here, and I hope I'm not coming across as attacking you personally, but its tiresome that only Black and Green are allowed to be strong. White has little to nothing as it is, Red has Burn, and Blue has enablers for Black...
Nah, you're not coming off as offensive or harsh.
I mean, I'm all for the SFM unban
I was for a preordain unban until UR Storm and Grixis emerged.
I'm not really sure what viable blue unbans there are outside of SFM and Splinter Twin though, which aren't even blue cards in themselves.
Imo unbans are the only reasonable thing to do. I'm tired of seeing people lose decks to bans. Open up the format even more and the format will ebb and flow just fine. Let people play the decks/cards they like and stop worrying about what others think is fun/fair.
They can't ban anything from death's shadow, it's done modern a huge service. Hasn't anyone noticed how many of the most unfair decks have been pushed out of contention and what we're seeing doing well currently is a mish-mash of fair and Aggro decks? The format has slowed down by a whole turn allowing various fringe decks to rise up and see some success, while at the same time the interactive nature of the top-tier is forcing out degenerate lists. Sure there's a splash of combo and that's healthy. But surely this is one of the most healthy metagames we've seen in the format!
Shadow has done the job that Twin used to do, but better! It's set the bar for unfair combo & acted as a gateway for new fringe lists to find success, because as top-dog it's beatable. It isn't an all powerful totem, it can be beaten the good old fashioned way and doesn't require specific hate cards (I.e. Stony silence or Kataki for affinity as an example).
Isn't anyone else seeing this? I watch the occasional twitch stream or read YouTube comments, or comments on articles and it's all "ban death's shadow" over and over... It doesn't make any sense! I really think 99% of people saying these things don't have a clue why they are saying it, they just want something to hate :S.
It's frustrating.
As for Jace, jace would be fine. Forget that it's blue for a moment (people are getting too caught up on what that means, if anything) and just consider it as a "card", and you'll see it bears resemblance to a few other things already existing in modern. What's great is that jace would see play, he'd be an option among many options. Just something else for people to run. I'm sure he'd turn up as a 1 or 2-of in lots of lists to begin with (including grixis shadow) but he'd eventually find a couple of homes where he really shone. Scapeshift, UW control and taking turns seem like good candidates. Neither are particularly scary (both decent, but also both beatable).
Everyone needs to seriously chill and take a good hard analytical look at the big picture of modern. And if you're one of those people who parrots "ban shadow" on streams or in comments sections, take a good hard look at why you're saying those things because ultimately that kind of rhetoric is damaging for the game.
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Modern: G Tron, Vannifar, Jund, Druid/Vizier combo, Humans, Eldrazi Stompy (Serum Powder), Amulet, Grishoalbrand, Breach Titan, Turns, Eternal Command, As Foretold Living End, Elves, Cheerios, RUG Scapeshift
There are no cards to answer a Jace now? Or is BGx just so damn spoiled by Abrupt Decay that anything at 4cmc that isn't in Jund or Azban, is 'unanswerable'.
It's offensive honestly, as a blue player, to have to hear over and over and over 'no this too good!'
Bull.
I am a blue player and I do not find it offensive at all. I would not like jace in the format. Outside of unfair matchups he would be far and away the best thing to do when play normal magic. Blue does not need to be better against other fair decks because it is already advantaged against those decks. Blue just needs a way to close games against combo/big mana.
There are no cards to answer a Jace now? Or is BGx just so damn spoiled by Abrupt Decay that anything at 4cmc that isn't in Jund or Azban, is 'unanswerable'.
It's offensive honestly, as a blue player, to have to hear over and over and over 'no this too good!'
Bull.
I am a blue player and I do not find it offensive at all. I would not like jace in the format. Outside of unfair matchups he would be far and away the best thing to do when play normal magic. Blue does not need to be better against other fair decks because it is already advantaged against those decks. Blue just needs a way to close games against combo/big mana.
Geez, I completely forgot that that was my main argument against Jace, too
They can't ban anything from death's shadow, it's done modern a huge service. Hasn't anyone noticed how many of the most unfair decks have been pushed out of contention and what we're seeing doing well currently is a mish-mash of fair and Aggro decks? The format has slowed down by a whole turn allowing various fringe decks to rise up and see some success, while at the same time the interactive nature of the top-tier is forcing out degenerate lists. Sure there's a splash of combo and that's healthy. But surely this is one of the most healthy metagames we've seen in the format!
See, this is the problem. If they end up banning Shadow, don't be surprised if they mention this very thing. Remember this?
The high percentage of the field playing Pod suppresses decks, especially other creature decks, that have an unfavorable matchup.
The Twin ban announcement lays it out even better:
Decks that are this strong can hurt diversity by pushing the decks that it defeats out of competition.
To be clear guys: Shadow isn't bannable, yet.It needs a whole bunch of Top8s in the upcoming GPs. But... if it gets there (say, Twin's 19%) and they consider strong enough... They didn't care about Twin's effect in metagame/gameplay, what should we expect them to handle Shadow any other way? People keep forgeting there are no sacred cows in Moddern. Jund, Pod, Twin... The "fair", "interactive", "skill-testing", "real magic", "healthy" decks do not get a free pass.
I don't want bans, but come on people. They can and probably will ban Shadow if it meets their ban criteria, regardless of how we feel about the deck's influence in metagame, gameplay or whatever. A ban would suck, but don't delude yourselves like the Twin players did.
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Modern:WU WU Control | WBG Abzan Company Frontier:UBR Grixis Control | BRG Jund Delirium
I guess the hope would be they are educated now on the impact of not having these kinds of decks have on the meta...a long shot I know...
Ha! Hahaha! Haha! Oh that's a good one! These are the same people who thought Kiki Jiki was a viable Twin replacement or that Temur Tempo and Jeskai Control would miraculously rise up or that Sword of the Meek would break Lantern or that Condemn would handle Shadow. These guys are so divorced from reality it's not even funny anymore.
People keep forgeting there are no sacred cows in Moddern. Jund, Pod, Twin... The "fair", "interactive", "skill-testing", "real magic", "healthy" decks do not get a free pass
Yep. Long live the high variance degenerate garbage that defines our format.
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I guess the hope would be they are educated now on the impact of not having these kinds of decks have on the meta...a long shot I know...
Ha! Hahaha! Haha! Oh that's a good one! These are the same people who thought Kiki Jiki was a viable Twin replacement or that Temur Tempo and Jeskai Control would miraculously rise up
True...
or that Sword of the Meek would break Lantern or that Condemn would handle Shadow.
Now this one isn't the case. All Aaron Forsythe said regarding Sword of the Meek was the speculation that it could make Lantern "more obnoxious" (nothing about breaking it) and he apparently didn't think it for long considering it was unbanned in the next announcement. As for Condemn, this was what was actually said:
"In Modern, Death's Shadow continues to be the best deck, but technology like Condemn is starting to emerge, and the format appears to be in a safe spot at the moment."
They never said it would handle it. They just noted that people were playing Condemn.
Did WotC actually think Kiki Jiki was a viable Twin replacement? They noted the combo was similar, and that people who wanted an equivalent win condition could try it out. My impression was that the banning was along the lines of Twin decks got to play both a powerful tempo strategy, and run a powerful "I win" combo that required few deck building constraints compared to many other combo decks. The combo was fast, and as Deceiver Exarch was unboltable, also immune to one of the premier removal cards of the era. Turns out a turn slower, and a bit more fragile, and its noncompetitive.
4x Jaces to 1x Pulse? Probably 2x Pulses if Jace were playable.
I'm certain 1 Jace deck would canobolize both midrange and control. Honestly, I think Sultai is just one 2 cmc removal away from being the best color combination in modern, there just needs to be a catch all to play with Goyfs and Snappies.
Sultai is a UG spell from being a powerful color combination. The truth is that Sultai is weak compared to Jund and Abzan because UG has nothing - everything GB is better in the Jund and Abzan shells than the Sultai shells. If they every print a powerful UG spell, like Shardless Agent, then you have a real reason to be Sultai in Modern.
Did WotC actually think Kiki Jiki was a viable Twin replacement? They noted the combo was similar, and that people who wanted an equivalent win condition could try it out. My impression was that the banning was along the lines of Twin decks got to play both a powerful tempo strategy, and run a powerful "I win" combo that required few deck building constraints compared to many other combo decks. The combo was fast, and as Deceiver Exarch was unboltable, also immune to one of the premier removal cards of the era. Turns out a turn slower, and a bit more fragile, and its noncompetitive.
Their exact words were: "We considered what one would do with the cards from a Splinter Twin deck with Splinter Twin banned. In the case of some Jeskai or Temur, there are very similar decks to build. In other cases, there is Kiki-Jiki as a replacement."
Instead, none of that happened, and URx decks have remained mostly irrelevant ever since. (Technically, we have Death's Shadow, but it's a black-core discard deck that plays more like the now-also-irrelevant Jund and nothing like the "reactive and control decks" they were hoping would flourish).
The problem with Kiki Jiki isn't that it's a creature, it's that it's 2RRR (triple red and 5 mana, a turn slower and incredibly color-intensive in an otherwise nearly mono blue deck). Make a functional reprint of Kiki Jiki as a 0/1 for 2RR and I will sing the praises for days. With Fatal Push and Path to Exile being the most played cards in the format, being Lightning Bolt-proof isn't even relevant anymore (see: Tarmogoyf's dropping value and reduction of relevance).
I hope we get some reeeeeeally interesting cards in Ixalan, seems like a good plane for UG cards - dinosaur/pirate/adventure theme. Now that I think about it, I can't believe that Simic Charm is probably the best UG card in Modern. That's so sad!
Yeah, nothing about that statement claims that Kiki-Jiki is a tier 1 replacement, though I do think at the time Kiki-Jiki combo decks were considered Tier 3 or so? I think WotC considered a problem with Twin as it was easy to splash, how relatively fast it was, and that it required few deck building concessions for a very fast combo that had a piece immune to one of the best removal of its era. Compared to most other combo decks in the format you didn't have to build around Twin as much. The closest comparison I can think of off the top of my head in modern at the time was RUG scapeshift, which still required 8 lands if I remember correctly to go off, leading it to requiring about the same amount of combo pieces between ramp and scapeshift as twin and exarch/pestermite, but ultimately still slower, or, Kiki-Jiki, which required a heavier investment in red, a tad more fragile, and at least a turn slower.
A variety of jeskai hard control and tempo decks have floated between tier 1 and 2 over the past year or so. URx has been really bad since Twin's banning Eldrazi, Dredge, and now Death's Shadow decks have started throwing around fatties that bolt snap bolt isn't particularly effective against and having easier access to white or black's removal pays off better than more counterspells. UW control is doing very well as a straight up draw-go build. For the most part I'm surprised reactive control exists at all, since its seems decks need more prison elements to answer all the threats the format has or have some pro-active strategy built in.
I never underastood why Blue mages show minimal to no flexibility in the decks they want to play.
For me, any Snapcaster Mage deck would cut it. I used to play Grixis Control among others, and Grixis Shadow will do it just fine, even if it's primary colour is black. Blue colour is not only a small splash, it's the second most basic colour.
They want their deck to have Cryptic, Snaps, they want it to be Tier 1(maybe Tier 0), and they want it not to lose from big mana decks(actually what would their dream deck lose from?)
As a GBx player, I'm thrilled to be playing a black deck that has snapcaster, its a card worth being jelly over.
I do think some blue players are being inflexible, it doesn't play out like a heavy blue deck and they still complain. I was primarily a jund player, I'm not upset and in a tizzy because I can't win topdeck wars via Raging Ravine and LOTV feel bad beats.
There's no remands and cryptic commands, but there are a TON of decision trees in Grixis, I absolutely love it. I love my good old GBx decks, but it's very satisfying having all these options that could lead to a win or loss. Are some blue players only happy countering everything, playing Supreme Verdicts and winning with Colonnades with 2 minutes left to go? Seriously, get over it, the format is not going to allow draw and go decks for years to come. The deck is a swiss army knife deck that has tons of interactions, different routes to victory, and tons of interaction, with a little on the stack reactions.
It's frustrating hearing people say, "its not Twin, meh". Ok, then go play Jeskai or UWx Control, those decks are posting some results in paper.
Cermonious Rejection is the first card in a very long time that can actually slow down Eldrazi/Tron, like seriously, Fulminator Mages are the hugest joke of a card; I sure as hell wish Jund/Junk could play it.
Also, I really don't think Death Shadow Jund is a good deck, it's a tier 2 deck, the deck cannot win through interaction, it just took the format by storm, people adapted quickly. It feels like an infect deck without apostle blessings in a fatal push format, it's not a good deck.
As one of the people probably percieved to be an inflexible blue player, I just have to say, I disagree with that label.
I have, or have had either online or in paper and played.
1. Dredge (Dont play anymore, after it broke with Mom Hug)
2. Twin (Banned)
3. Burn (RWg, for when I want to kick in some Tron teeth)
4. Jeskai Nahiri/Control (Foiling it out, enjoyable, but not what I want to play)
5. UR Gifts Storm (Foiling it out, enjoyable for less games than Burn)
6. Grishoalbrand (Not for me, but funny to spike a few games with it)
7. BW Tokens, and BW Aristocrats (Casual play)
8. Green Devo Tooth and Nail (Casual Play)
9. Jund (A really short period, I dont like it)
10. 8rack (Nope, too much salt)
11. Grixis Temp (Delver, DS, whatever)
12. Bloo (Nope)
13. RG Heroic (A very stupid deck that can still win games, and its like...pauper cards)
14. Knightfall
15. UW Titan Value
16. Esper Control/Blink
17. Affinity
18. Tron
19. Our Lord and Saviour, Turns.
I'm sure there are more that I played for a short time, like, Bant Eldrazi, BR Vamps, and Mono R Prison, but I never put a ton of time into any of those and they where mostly just a way to pass some time.
In the end though, I've tried. I have more money than sense apparently, and kept looking for a 'fix' after Twin was taken, because it was the only deck that won, as it did. It really really is. Turns is the next closest thing, and there is a spicy UR Turns deck getting some discussion that is even closer to Twin because it can Bolt Snap Bolt.
In the end though, I (and I assume others like me) am not inflexible, there is just a certain play style we find enjoyable, and thats what we want.
I dont like 'Magic'. I like Modern. I liked Twin, and I like Turns. It is what it is.
I saw some DnT and 1x small pox deck at my local meta
I'm excited about the grixis deck as well, it feels like a fun inbetween splinter twin and jund, I'm thrilled with it, if you're a modern player who likes to interact instead of playing aggro or linear combo, it's a fantastic deck.
Shadow is the first real finisher grixis has had in the format, the deck is really similar to delver legacy, loving it. I wish blue players would stop clamoring for the, "unban splinter twin or its not good enough" attitude. Blue players complain for over a year lamenting the twin ban and no good blue decks in tier 1, and while the core is black, there's a blue deck thats the undisputed best deck now, and they still complain. I can't imagine being one of the regulars in here and seeing the behavior of some of the players in here still unhappy, I haven't been seeing Company players, Affinity, GBx or combo players screaming about their decks for the most part the past few months, just a handful of die hard blue players.
Grixis Shadow is a tier 1 blue deck, and the best tier 1 deck on top of it, seriously, just because it doesn't play Cryptic or remand doesn't make it less worth playing
The options are clear
Play Grixis Shadow
Play UWx or Jeskai
Stop complaining, Twin isn't coming off the list any time soon
I'd be thrilled for the Twin unban, but I feel like Grixis Shadow is doing fine policing the meta from devolving into big mana and linear decks. I'd be excited if Twin were unbanned, and I do think it wouldn't damage the meta, but WOTC is also monitoring Grixis and seeing if it can actually stay in the format while being healthy for the meta, a hasty unban could be radically different with huge bans.
The meta would look fantastic with SFM and BBE without damaging the formats health, tons of fair decks would emerge as a result, I'm almost certain Mardu would become a real deck with an actual closer
I hope we get some reeeeeeally interesting cards in Ixalan, seems like a good plane for UG cards - dinosaur/pirate/adventure theme. Now that I think about it, I can't believe that Simic Charm is probably the best UG card in Modern. That's so sad!
I saw some DnT and 1x small pox deck at my local meta
I'm excited about the grixis deck as well, it feels like a fun inbetween splinter twin and jund, I'm thrilled with it, if you're a modern player who likes to interact instead of playing aggro or linear combo, it's a fantastic deck.
Shadow is the first real finisher grixis has had in the format, the deck is really similar to delver legacy, loving it. I wish blue players would stop clamoring for the, "unban splinter twin or its not good enough" attitude. Blue players complain for over a year lamenting the twin ban and no good blue decks in tier 1, and while the core is black, there's a blue deck thats the undisputed best deck now, and they still complain. I can't imagine being one of the regulars in here and seeing the behavior of some of the players in here still unhappy, I haven't been seeing Company players, Affinity, GBx or combo players screaming about their decks for the most part, just a handful of die hard blue players.
Grixis Shadow is a tier 1 blue deck, and the best tier 1 deck on top of it, seriously, just because it doesn't play Cryptic or remand doesn't make it less worth playing
The options are clear
Play Grixis Shadow
Play UWx or Jeskai
Stop complaining, Twin isn't coming off the list any time soon
I'd be thrilled for the Twin unban, but I feel like Grixis Shadow is doing fine policing the meta from devolving into big mana and linear decks. I'd be excited if Twin were unbanned, and I do think it wouldn't damage the meta, but WOTC is also monitoring Grixis and seeing if it can actually stay in the format while being healthy for the meta, a hasty unban could be radically different with huge bans.
I feel much of this is directed at me, and I would like to clarify something: Grixis Death;s Shadow is a great deck that is fun to play. It is not ideally what I am personally looking for, but it's damn good, powerful, and capable of winning while at least keeping the illusion of a blue tempo deck.
What it also seems to have been doing though, is promoting complacency; promoting the idea that Modern is "fine" and that better things don't need to happen because we have this deck. There are a number of things on the banned list that are completely safe to come off, but never will if people keep parading these decks around as a display of format health and diversity (which, if you look comparatively speaking, is still pretty bad and heavily slanted to linear/aggro/combo, though with at least a lot of variety of linear/aggro/combo).
GDS is an amazing deck that does a lot of good for the format, but it alone can't fill the role that Twin and Jund did together. If it does, it would grow to the number of those decks combined and see a ban; tossing us into more linear chaos like we had all of 2016. I would love to see more unbans to bring other competing reactive/interactive decks to a similar level of power (SFM, BBE, Twin, Jace, etc) rather than continue the trend of banning out the most powerful deck and watching everyone scramble around chaotically like ants who just got their anthill pushed in. The race to the bottom is not good for anyone.
The problem here isn't Twin or Jace or SFM or BBE, it's complacency about a format still filled with plenty of problems, and holding Wizards accountable for the empty promises and statements they seem to make over and over.
I enjoy playing GDS, but that doesn't mean there can't be other good options as well.
I agree with you about complacency, and I believe the format should't just stop. It's not just a, "ok, blue players, you got your deck, jund players, you have your new replacement, everything is ok!"
I still am pushing for the SFM/BBE unban, and want more interactive decks to be in the meta. The meta definitely still has a lot of linear decks in modern, but that won't just go away, those decks are powerful and a lot of people purposely play modern/legacy/EDH to do busted things.
I think grixis shadow and Twin may be too much of a death knell for combo decks though, who would be crazy enough to play a combo deck if you were guaranteed to see 20% of your opponents have a 60-70% matchup advantage against you?
The greedy part of me would say, "screw combo decks, I don't like them anyway", but...I don't know, I don't know if having grixis and Twin at the same time is fair to the archetype.
If Grixis Shadow eats a ban and can't police linear decks anymore, I will absolutely be on the unban twin train. I'm really not against a twin unban right now, personally, but I do feel yelling at WOTC for it to be unbanned now isn't really what I want either
I'm still against a Jace unban, it doesn't combat linear/combo decks, throws GBx out of the meta even more (Abzans barely holding on to tier 2 now). I just don't see the Jace benefit, it could end up throwing out all GBx decks and UWx decks and just becoming a sultai deck to eat all the shares instead. I think the scenarios of Jace back-firing are way higher than him being acceptable and safe
I can't really think of safe unbans right now except SFM and BBE
All I meant by that was that in Standard it was easy for them to produce a card like LotV and other cards that naturally hate on its abilities which things like I listed did. Not every 2:1 creature is great against Lilly it depends on the other affect the card is providing.
This is actually basic Set design stuff and actually the most recent standard issues showcase just how not doing that type of thing can be a major format warping error. Yes they print cards with in sets to have natural game against other cards with in the set. It is hate designed against said cards doesn't mean it is RiP v Dredge level hate it just means that they are designing certain cards to regulate others. Its basic good set design, internal hate against things like Graft diggers cage in a set focused on flashback etc..Smitter in the block right after LotV to hate on that affect, They are standard level hate cards not precisely Modern level in all instances but they are designed to provide hate in the smaller standard format. I mean again after the most recent standard issues and people crying for the much needed interior block hate cards I would think this is obvious stuff to anyone who has played the game for a period of time.
I'm not disagreeing that they need hate cards and safety valves and stuff. I've written about how the reason Standard has been so messed up is the lack of such cards, and i think that every banned card would have been okay had there been better answer cards around (MAYBE CopyCat would have eventually gotten a ban because of people being tired of it--it would've been legal for nearly 2 years, after all--but it wouldn't have received a ban as quickly as it did). I just didn't think that most of those cards were specifically anti-Liliana.
I'm guessing their reasoning for eschewing the hate cards was the idea that stuff like Aetherworks Marvel could be contained by the other decks doing their own powerful stuff. Which actually did work... Aetherworks Marvel wasn't the top deck. The top deck was UW Aggro, and it wasn't as dominant as Collected Company or Abzan or Monoblack Devotion had been in preceding Standards. Standard was, strictly speaking, at one of its most diverse in years. The problem was that, even if there technically were a number of different strategies without anything being dominant, players didn't enjoy a format where the only way to deal with your opponent playing Aetherworks Marvel (or whatever else they were doing) was to do your own super powerful strategy.
Things like Lilly's power are relative, WotC understands things like a format with multiple token producing creatures diminish a cards like LotV power because the more restricted card pool has a abundance of creatures that interact favorably against her, you don't have to have "destroy target x" etc.. to produce a format with a abundance of "hate" against the card.
I am pretty sure that WotC abandoned their internal hate cards in standard because in previous years a major complaint from players had been, "mechanic x is cool but you printed card y which just kills the deck" and other formulations of such complaints. They attempted to abandon hate in a attempt to let set mechanic driven cards shine, turns out that they run the risk of just running over "fair" mid-range value decks when those decks don't have access to direct hate against them.
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Nah, you're not coming off as offensive or harsh.
I mean, I'm all for the SFM unban
I was for a preordain unban until UR Storm and Grixis emerged.
I'm not really sure what viable blue unbans there are outside of SFM and Splinter Twin though, which aren't even blue cards in themselves.
Shadow has done the job that Twin used to do, but better! It's set the bar for unfair combo & acted as a gateway for new fringe lists to find success, because as top-dog it's beatable. It isn't an all powerful totem, it can be beaten the good old fashioned way and doesn't require specific hate cards (I.e. Stony silence or Kataki for affinity as an example).
Isn't anyone else seeing this? I watch the occasional twitch stream or read YouTube comments, or comments on articles and it's all "ban death's shadow" over and over... It doesn't make any sense! I really think 99% of people saying these things don't have a clue why they are saying it, they just want something to hate :S.
It's frustrating.
As for Jace, jace would be fine. Forget that it's blue for a moment (people are getting too caught up on what that means, if anything) and just consider it as a "card", and you'll see it bears resemblance to a few other things already existing in modern. What's great is that jace would see play, he'd be an option among many options. Just something else for people to run. I'm sure he'd turn up as a 1 or 2-of in lots of lists to begin with (including grixis shadow) but he'd eventually find a couple of homes where he really shone. Scapeshift, UW control and taking turns seem like good candidates. Neither are particularly scary (both decent, but also both beatable).
Everyone needs to seriously chill and take a good hard analytical look at the big picture of modern. And if you're one of those people who parrots "ban shadow" on streams or in comments sections, take a good hard look at why you're saying those things because ultimately that kind of rhetoric is damaging for the game.
I am a blue player and I do not find it offensive at all. I would not like jace in the format. Outside of unfair matchups he would be far and away the best thing to do when play normal magic. Blue does not need to be better against other fair decks because it is already advantaged against those decks. Blue just needs a way to close games against combo/big mana.
Geez, I completely forgot that that was my main argument against Jace, too
To be clear guys: Shadow isn't bannable, yet.It needs a whole bunch of Top8s in the upcoming GPs. But... if it gets there (say, Twin's 19%) and they consider strong enough... They didn't care about Twin's effect in metagame/gameplay, what should we expect them to handle Shadow any other way? People keep forgeting there are no sacred cows in Moddern. Jund, Pod, Twin... The "fair", "interactive", "skill-testing", "real magic", "healthy" decks do not get a free pass.
I don't want bans, but come on people. They can and probably will ban Shadow if it meets their ban criteria, regardless of how we feel about the deck's influence in metagame, gameplay or whatever. A ban would suck, but don't delude yourselves like the Twin players did.
Frontier: UBR Grixis Control | BRG Jund Delirium
Spirits
Ha! Hahaha! Haha! Oh that's a good one! These are the same people who thought Kiki Jiki was a viable Twin replacement or that Temur Tempo and Jeskai Control would miraculously rise up or that Sword of the Meek would break Lantern or that Condemn would handle Shadow. These guys are so divorced from reality it's not even funny anymore.
Yep. Long live the high variance degenerate garbage that defines our format.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
JundBGR
RW Blood MoonRW
Pauper
Delver U
Elves G
Control B
Commander
Edgar Markov BRW
Captain Sisay GW
Niv-Mizzet, Parun UR
Tymna and Ravos WB
4 cmc cards are bad in modern unless they win on the spot or you have ramp to cheat them out. so yea those cards would be fine.
and my testing tells the same story.
its sfm that is our savior, but wizards is scared about unbans after the golgari grave troll fiasco.
funny how fair decks have to hurt for the sins of broken decks eh?
even thought its fair deck diversity that needs help.......
decks playing:
none
Now this one isn't the case. All Aaron Forsythe said regarding Sword of the Meek was the speculation that it could make Lantern "more obnoxious" (nothing about breaking it) and he apparently didn't think it for long considering it was unbanned in the next announcement. As for Condemn, this was what was actually said:
"In Modern, Death's Shadow continues to be the best deck, but technology like Condemn is starting to emerge, and the format appears to be in a safe spot at the moment."
They never said it would handle it. They just noted that people were playing Condemn.
Sultai is a UG spell from being a powerful color combination. The truth is that Sultai is weak compared to Jund and Abzan because UG has nothing - everything GB is better in the Jund and Abzan shells than the Sultai shells. If they every print a powerful UG spell, like Shardless Agent, then you have a real reason to be Sultai in Modern.
Their exact words were: "We considered what one would do with the cards from a Splinter Twin deck with Splinter Twin banned. In the case of some Jeskai or Temur, there are very similar decks to build. In other cases, there is Kiki-Jiki as a replacement."
Instead, none of that happened, and URx decks have remained mostly irrelevant ever since. (Technically, we have Death's Shadow, but it's a black-core discard deck that plays more like the now-also-irrelevant Jund and nothing like the "reactive and control decks" they were hoping would flourish).
The problem with Kiki Jiki isn't that it's a creature, it's that it's 2RRR (triple red and 5 mana, a turn slower and incredibly color-intensive in an otherwise nearly mono blue deck). Make a functional reprint of Kiki Jiki as a 0/1 for 2RR and I will sing the praises for days. With Fatal Push and Path to Exile being the most played cards in the format, being Lightning Bolt-proof isn't even relevant anymore (see: Tarmogoyf's dropping value and reduction of relevance).
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
Its not control, its not combo, its not burst cantrip/storm, its a grinding deck, Mid-range, as far as Modern goes :/
Spirits
A variety of jeskai hard control and tempo decks have floated between tier 1 and 2 over the past year or so. URx has been really bad since Twin's banning Eldrazi, Dredge, and now Death's Shadow decks have started throwing around fatties that bolt snap bolt isn't particularly effective against and having easier access to white or black's removal pays off better than more counterspells. UW control is doing very well as a straight up draw-go build. For the most part I'm surprised reactive control exists at all, since its seems decks need more prison elements to answer all the threats the format has or have some pro-active strategy built in.
As a GBx player, I'm thrilled to be playing a black deck that has snapcaster, its a card worth being jelly over.
I do think some blue players are being inflexible, it doesn't play out like a heavy blue deck and they still complain. I was primarily a jund player, I'm not upset and in a tizzy because I can't win topdeck wars via Raging Ravine and LOTV feel bad beats.
There's no remands and cryptic commands, but there are a TON of decision trees in Grixis, I absolutely love it. I love my good old GBx decks, but it's very satisfying having all these options that could lead to a win or loss. Are some blue players only happy countering everything, playing Supreme Verdicts and winning with Colonnades with 2 minutes left to go? Seriously, get over it, the format is not going to allow draw and go decks for years to come. The deck is a swiss army knife deck that has tons of interactions, different routes to victory, and tons of interaction, with a little on the stack reactions.
It's frustrating hearing people say, "its not Twin, meh". Ok, then go play Jeskai or UWx Control, those decks are posting some results in paper.
Cermonious Rejection is the first card in a very long time that can actually slow down Eldrazi/Tron, like seriously, Fulminator Mages are the hugest joke of a card; I sure as hell wish Jund/Junk could play it.
Also, I really don't think Death Shadow Jund is a good deck, it's a tier 2 deck, the deck cannot win through interaction, it just took the format by storm, people adapted quickly. It feels like an infect deck without apostle blessings in a fatal push format, it's not a good deck.
I have, or have had either online or in paper and played.
1. Dredge (Dont play anymore, after it broke with Mom Hug)
2. Twin (Banned)
3. Burn (RWg, for when I want to kick in some Tron teeth)
4. Jeskai Nahiri/Control (Foiling it out, enjoyable, but not what I want to play)
5. UR Gifts Storm (Foiling it out, enjoyable for less games than Burn)
6. Grishoalbrand (Not for me, but funny to spike a few games with it)
7. BW Tokens, and BW Aristocrats (Casual play)
8. Green Devo Tooth and Nail (Casual Play)
9. Jund (A really short period, I dont like it)
10. 8rack (Nope, too much salt)
11. Grixis Temp (Delver, DS, whatever)
12. Bloo (Nope)
13. RG Heroic (A very stupid deck that can still win games, and its like...pauper cards)
14. Knightfall
15. UW Titan Value
16. Esper Control/Blink
17. Affinity
18. Tron
19. Our Lord and Saviour, Turns.
I'm sure there are more that I played for a short time, like, Bant Eldrazi, BR Vamps, and Mono R Prison, but I never put a ton of time into any of those and they where mostly just a way to pass some time.
In the end though, I've tried. I have more money than sense apparently, and kept looking for a 'fix' after Twin was taken, because it was the only deck that won, as it did. It really really is. Turns is the next closest thing, and there is a spicy UR Turns deck getting some discussion that is even closer to Twin because it can Bolt Snap Bolt.
In the end though, I (and I assume others like me) am not inflexible, there is just a certain play style we find enjoyable, and thats what we want.
I dont like 'Magic'. I like Modern. I liked Twin, and I like Turns. It is what it is.
Spirits
I'm excited about the grixis deck as well, it feels like a fun inbetween splinter twin and jund, I'm thrilled with it, if you're a modern player who likes to interact instead of playing aggro or linear combo, it's a fantastic deck.
Shadow is the first real finisher grixis has had in the format, the deck is really similar to delver legacy, loving it. I wish blue players would stop clamoring for the, "unban splinter twin or its not good enough" attitude. Blue players complain for over a year lamenting the twin ban and no good blue decks in tier 1, and while the core is black, there's a blue deck thats the undisputed best deck now, and they still complain. I can't imagine being one of the regulars in here and seeing the behavior of some of the players in here still unhappy, I haven't been seeing Company players, Affinity, GBx or combo players screaming about their decks for the most part the past few months, just a handful of die hard blue players.
Grixis Shadow is a tier 1 blue deck, and the best tier 1 deck on top of it, seriously, just because it doesn't play Cryptic or remand doesn't make it less worth playing
The options are clear
Play Grixis Shadow
Play UWx or Jeskai
Stop complaining, Twin isn't coming off the list any time soon
I'd be thrilled for the Twin unban, but I feel like Grixis Shadow is doing fine policing the meta from devolving into big mana and linear decks. I'd be excited if Twin were unbanned, and I do think it wouldn't damage the meta, but WOTC is also monitoring Grixis and seeing if it can actually stay in the format while being healthy for the meta, a hasty unban could be radically different with huge bans.
The meta would look fantastic with SFM and BBE without damaging the formats health, tons of fair decks would emerge as a result, I'm almost certain Mardu would become a real deck with an actual closer
'
Does Sultai Charm count?
JundBGR
RW Blood MoonRW
Pauper
Delver U
Elves G
Control B
Commander
Edgar Markov BRW
Captain Sisay GW
Niv-Mizzet, Parun UR
Tymna and Ravos WB
I feel much of this is directed at me, and I would like to clarify something: Grixis Death;s Shadow is a great deck that is fun to play. It is not ideally what I am personally looking for, but it's damn good, powerful, and capable of winning while at least keeping the illusion of a blue tempo deck.
What it also seems to have been doing though, is promoting complacency; promoting the idea that Modern is "fine" and that better things don't need to happen because we have this deck. There are a number of things on the banned list that are completely safe to come off, but never will if people keep parading these decks around as a display of format health and diversity (which, if you look comparatively speaking, is still pretty bad and heavily slanted to linear/aggro/combo, though with at least a lot of variety of linear/aggro/combo).
GDS is an amazing deck that does a lot of good for the format, but it alone can't fill the role that Twin and Jund did together. If it does, it would grow to the number of those decks combined and see a ban; tossing us into more linear chaos like we had all of 2016. I would love to see more unbans to bring other competing reactive/interactive decks to a similar level of power (SFM, BBE, Twin, Jace, etc) rather than continue the trend of banning out the most powerful deck and watching everyone scramble around chaotically like ants who just got their anthill pushed in. The race to the bottom is not good for anyone.
The problem here isn't Twin or Jace or SFM or BBE, it's complacency about a format still filled with plenty of problems, and holding Wizards accountable for the empty promises and statements they seem to make over and over.
I enjoy playing GDS, but that doesn't mean there can't be other good options as well.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
I still am pushing for the SFM/BBE unban, and want more interactive decks to be in the meta. The meta definitely still has a lot of linear decks in modern, but that won't just go away, those decks are powerful and a lot of people purposely play modern/legacy/EDH to do busted things.
I think grixis shadow and Twin may be too much of a death knell for combo decks though, who would be crazy enough to play a combo deck if you were guaranteed to see 20% of your opponents have a 60-70% matchup advantage against you?
The greedy part of me would say, "screw combo decks, I don't like them anyway", but...I don't know, I don't know if having grixis and Twin at the same time is fair to the archetype.
If Grixis Shadow eats a ban and can't police linear decks anymore, I will absolutely be on the unban twin train. I'm really not against a twin unban right now, personally, but I do feel yelling at WOTC for it to be unbanned now isn't really what I want either
I'm still against a Jace unban, it doesn't combat linear/combo decks, throws GBx out of the meta even more (Abzans barely holding on to tier 2 now). I just don't see the Jace benefit, it could end up throwing out all GBx decks and UWx decks and just becoming a sultai deck to eat all the shares instead. I think the scenarios of Jace back-firing are way higher than him being acceptable and safe
I can't really think of safe unbans right now except SFM and BBE
Twin is still a slightly lean yes for me
Preordain is way off the table now.
Things like Lilly's power are relative, WotC understands things like a format with multiple token producing creatures diminish a cards like LotV power because the more restricted card pool has a abundance of creatures that interact favorably against her, you don't have to have "destroy target x" etc.. to produce a format with a abundance of "hate" against the card.
I am pretty sure that WotC abandoned their internal hate cards in standard because in previous years a major complaint from players had been, "mechanic x is cool but you printed card y which just kills the deck" and other formulations of such complaints. They attempted to abandon hate in a attempt to let set mechanic driven cards shine, turns out that they run the risk of just running over "fair" mid-range value decks when those decks don't have access to direct hate against them.