Jeskai Twin would be fantastic with both SFM, Twin, AV
What example test list do you have to show this? What 8-10 cards are you cutting to make room for the SFM package and AV copies? This is yet another unfounded myth that has been around for a while.
I can say from my personal experience with Grixis Twin, it was hard enough finding room for 1-2 Tasigurs, never mind fitting in a 6 to 7-card SFM package and 2-4 additional card draw cards that do nothing for 4 turns. The full SFM package would have to be in the main (what are you cutting?) and AV would be out of the side (what are you cutting?).
Jamming both packages into the same deck just makes both individual parts weaker because you are removing support cards and protection (and risk simply losing to faster decks and interaction).
AV goes in the SB and you bring in your 3-4 copies for all the grindy matchups, improving them dramatically. Twin vs. BGx was already about 50-50 despite that allegedly being an unfavorable matchup, so I imagine AV just makes it at least a few points better.
SFM goes right into Jeskai Twin, trimming any number of cards from Bianchi's winning list at GP Pittsburgh in late 2015. -1 Wall, -1 Kiki, -1 Angel, -1 Snare already gets you 4 slots, and then you just need 1-2 more depending on your preference.
I have no idea if those decks are too strong, but let's not pretend that Twin couldn't accommodate those cards.
As a Burn player, I beg you not to reprint that card. It would be absolutely glorious to play...for about a week until Burn would be hit with multiple emergency bans, followed by Price a few months later. It would be in the context of the format, way worse than a legitimate Mox.
I don't think it would be too much. I have played burn quite a bit myself. It would probably be too sudden though for the current meta. Most decks are 3 color. However, it's easy to adapt too. Just play 2 color or mono color. However, considering how many people would have to change decks up because of it. I could see quite an unhappy player base. Drastic changes generally are not good, but when I look at the card alone, and have played, and played against it in legacy. I don't see it as too much. Just a sudden meta shift, but a pretty simple shift too mostly two color.
I think the big issue is that Price of Progress was never in the format, and modern evolved without it. Price of Progress would cause the meta to shift to less greedy mana bases, but people have come to expect a 3 color deck being normal. Playing 3 colors is pretty low risk short of Blood Moon. I think that's why Price of Progress was brought up. There just is not much policing what lands people play in modern. I think Price of Progress would do a great job. If we want less greedy mana bases, and I don't see a problem with it. However, some people like playing with greedy mana bases. Greedy has been the norm so a shift to the other direction would upset some players. Also it's difficult to shift gradually in this regard. Although, a wasteland variant is certainly a step in the right direction. However, modern has evolved without Price of Progress. Consequently, peoples have the perception of greedy mana bases being normal, and something that punishes that choice is perceived abnormal.
We have people complain about Blood Moon. Their reason is general it stops me from playing the game or cuts me off a color. The fact is people perceive perfect mana as normal, and don't have to worry about color screw. If they were that worried about blood moon though they would stop playing 3 color decks. However, blood moon only sees play in a handful of decks, and mostly sits in sideboards the other times. It's also generally easy to play around with fetch-lands, and instant speed removal.
I stopped reading this wall of text after a few sentences
The fact you can even argue for a single card destroying half the decks in the format and forcing them to become 2 colors is insane and absurd, no single card should warp an entire format that much, even blood moon and burn at their piques never did that.
Every deck would pack the most burn hate centric sideboard slot that burn would be invalidated as a deck all while destroying everyones sideboard slot. The card would literally devolve modern into Eldrazi Winter proportions of bad
Only three color/tron decks would have to dedicate more seriously to burn then. However, I was going on saying that 3 color/ perfect mana has been the norm in modern. A sudden shift to less greedy mana bases would seem abnormal to what has been the norm. It's not necessarily bad, but depends on what you want out the format.
~Edit~
Also another point in that "wall of text" was the a sudden shift like that would probably lead to a lot unhappy players.
All I meant by that was that in Standard it was easy for them to produce a card like LotV and other cards that naturally hate on its abilities which things like I listed did. Not every 2:1 creature is great against Lilly it depends on the other affect the card is providing.
This is actually basic Set design stuff and actually the most recent standard issues showcase just how not doing that type of thing can be a major format warping error. Yes they print cards with in sets to have natural game against other cards with in the set. It is hate designed against said cards doesn't mean it is RiP v Dredge level hate it just means that they are designing certain cards to regulate others. Its basic good set design, internal hate against things like Graft diggers cage in a set focused on flashback etc..Smitter in the block right after LotV to hate on that affect, They are standard level hate cards not precisely Modern level in all instances but they are designed to provide hate in the smaller standard format. I mean again after the most recent standard issues and people crying for the much needed interior block hate cards I would think this is obvious stuff to anyone who has played the game for a period of time.
I'm not disagreeing that they need hate cards and safety valves and stuff. I've written about how the reason Standard has been so messed up is the lack of such cards, and i think that every banned card would have been okay had there been better answer cards around (MAYBE CopyCat would have eventually gotten a ban because of people being tired of it--it would've been legal for nearly 2 years, after all--but it wouldn't have received a ban as quickly as it did). I just didn't think that most of those cards were specifically anti-Liliana.
I'm guessing their reasoning for eschewing the hate cards was the idea that stuff like Aetherworks Marvel could be contained by the other decks doing their own powerful stuff. Which actually did work... Aetherworks Marvel wasn't the top deck. The top deck was UW Aggro, and it wasn't as dominant as Collected Company or Abzan or Monoblack Devotion had been in preceding Standards. Standard was, strictly speaking, at one of its most diverse in years. The problem was that, even if there technically were a number of different strategies without anything being dominant, players didn't enjoy a format where the only way to deal with your opponent playing Aetherworks Marvel (or whatever else they were doing) was to do your own super powerful strategy.
AV goes in the SB and you bring in your 3-4 copies for all the grindy matchups, improving them dramatically. Twin vs. BGx was already about 50-50 despite that allegedly being an unfavorable matchup, so I imagine AV just makes it at least a few points better.
SFM goes right into Jeskai Twin, trimming any number of cards from Bianchi's winning list at GP Pittsburgh in late 2015. -1 Wall, -1 Kiki, -1 Angel, -1 Snare already gets you 4 slots, and then you just need 1-2 more depending on your preference.
I have no idea if those decks are too strong, but let's not pretend that Twin couldn't accommodate those cards.
Twin/GBx matchup was at least 55/45 in favor of GBx, depending on how you weight each individual game odds. A while ago I ran some basic calculations on the commonly accepted matchup numbers to correlate that (attached). Don't know what it would be today, but Jund is currently irrelevant, Shadow would tear it to pieces, and Eldrazi builds would give plenty of headaches as well.
You could take those out of that list. But you are removing a card draw engine/blocker/blink target, two combo pieces (one serves double duty as flying attacker and flicker), a piece of interaction, plus another two cards (either card draw or interaction), in a version of the deck already down on combo pieces (5 tappers 3 Twin leftover). Wall, Kiki, Resto, and Snare all facilitate the main game plan of the deck (draw cards, protect yourself, chip away damage, combo off). SFM does none of those things and is purely a value play at the cost of 6-7 slots (4 SFM 2-3 BS/Sword/etc). If you want to play the grindy value Twin game, you are so much better served with Tasigur and K Command. SFM itself would likely be much better in builds not cluttered with another 10 card combo. If both were legal, would people try to jam it? Sure. Would it be the ideal build? I don't think it would even be in the top 3 builds.
The largest, most reliable dataset I know of had the matchup at 50-50. Karsten wrote about it in early 2015 and I've seen the spreadsheet that informed his analysis. I have no idea where your numbers come from but I am going to defer to the N=1200 sample of real MTGO games for my stats.
Again, I have no idea how good an SFM Twinblade list is, but a) I guarantee you that you are underselling its effectiveness given SFM's performance across multiple formats, and b) I am very skeptical of your objectivity on all things related to Twin.
The largest, most reliable dataset I know of had the matchup at 50-50. Karsten wrote about it in early 2015 and I've seen the spreadsheet that informed his analysis. I have no idea where your numbers come from but I am going to defer to the N=1200 sample of real MTGO games for my stats.
Again, I have no idea how good an SFM Twinblade list is, but a) I guarantee you that you are underselling its effectiveness given SFM's performance across multiple formats, and b) I am very skeptical of your objectivity on all things related to Twin.
SFM is laughably weak in the current field of Modern; dominated by fast, powerful strategies backed up by massive amounts of discard and creature removal. SFM's place in other formats is entirely irrelevant to Modern. But all in all, none of this really matters. Wizards has shown time and time again they are unwilling to bring either back (or into) Modern, despite multiple prime opportunities. We're just arguing meaningless opinions with people who don't matter and don't actually influence policy. As much as both are totally safe to be in Modern (along with Jace and BBE), every update tells me it's less and less likely to ever actually happen. Wizards will literally find any and all reason to either avoid unbanning anything, or avoid EVEN TALKING ABOUT THE FORMAT in B&R updates. We will continue a race to the bottom unless something actually changes.
What happened to Company? Why did it drop that badly? It still seems to be a good deck, putting up many great results according to mtgtop8.
They're trying to play a creature-based combo in a format defined by discard spells and creature removal, and their backup beatdown plan is dilluted in order to facilitate the combo.
As a side note, its suppression is exactly why I keep saying Twin would be absolutely fine in today's meta.
So on the chance that Death's Shadow does get hit in August, is the rest of the shell still viable?
By that I mean, is powering out a turn 2 Tasigur/ Gurmag Angler with Stubborn Denial backup still a good enough strategy? Do you just replace Death's Shadow with Delver or do you find something else to fit that slot instead (preferably another 4+ powered creature)?
So on the chance that Death's Shadow does get hit in August, is the rest of the shell still viable?
By that I mean, is powering out a turn 2 Tasigur/ Gurmag Angler with Stubborn Denial backup still a good enough strategy? Do you just replace Death's Shadow with Delver or do you find something else to fit that slot instead (preferably another 4+ powered creature)?
I can't think of anything that's both a cheap 4/* creature that wouldn't conflict with Tasigur and Gurmag Angler, so the fatty + Stubborn Denial plan pretty much dies with DS. If DS were banned (and man I hope it doesn't) the likely outcome is that anyone who can't jump ship from a Grixis shell to some other shell would switch back to either Grixis Control or Grixis Delver. I can't say how well the former will do, but the latter is pretty much objectively worse than Grixis DS by a large margin
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Decks
Modern: UWUW Control UBRGrixis Shadow URIzzet Phoenix
Are you running hot, with your Delver's instantly flipping on demand as evasive 3/2's, or do they stumble as 1/1's as a horrific top deck when compared to the 5/5 Deaths Shadow.
Like lets make no mistake, DS is a brutal good card these days, its like T1 to Developing Competitive levels. You may spike an event as Delver Grixis, but you may also not flip your delvers and just lose to yourself.
So on the chance that Death's Shadow does get hit in August, is the rest of the shell still viable?
By that I mean, is powering out a turn 2 Tasigur/ Gurmag Angler with Stubborn Denial backup still a good enough strategy? Do you just replace Death's Shadow with Delver or do you find something else to fit that slot instead (preferably another 4+ powered creature)?
I can't think of anything that's both a cheap 4/* creature that wouldn't conflict with Tasigur and Gurmag Angler, so the fatty + Stubborn Denial plan pretty much dies with DS. If DS were banned (and man I hope it doesn't) the likely outcome is that anyone who can't jump ship from a Grixis shell to some other shell would switch back to either Grixis Control or Grixis Delver. I can't say how well the former will do, but the latter is pretty much objectively worse than Grixis DS by a large margin
Oh god, eldrazi tron would massacre grixis delver and control decks, they'd also have to slog against the big mana and GY decks. They'd be bad decks.
So on the chance that Death's Shadow does get hit in August, is the rest of the shell still viable?
By that I mean, is powering out a turn 2 Tasigur/ Gurmag Angler with Stubborn Denial backup still a good enough strategy? Do you just replace Death's Shadow with Delver or do you find something else to fit that slot instead (preferably another 4+ powered creature)?
I can't think of anything that's both a cheap 4/* creature that wouldn't conflict with Tasigur and Gurmag Angler, so the fatty + Stubborn Denial plan pretty much dies with DS. If DS were banned (and man I hope it doesn't) the likely outcome is that anyone who can't jump ship from a Grixis shell to some other shell would switch back to either Grixis Control or Grixis Delver. I can't say how well the former will do, but the latter is pretty much objectively worse than Grixis DS by a large margin
Oh god, eldrazi tron would massacre grixis delver and control decks, they'd also have to slog against the big mana and GY decks. They'd be bad decks.
If DS is banned, I wouldn't play Delver for those reasons, plus the fact that I'd expect a resurgence of burn to combat the big-mana/eldrazi decks. If the Tron decks weren't so consistent at hitting Tron T3 it would be more manageable. I feel like these decks are a turn too fast. I had my last few eldrazi tron opponents open tron land into map into T3 tron 5 games in a row, followed by Karn's and Newlamog. It's like they get to play the best mid-range creatures and go over the top of everyone. Blegh. I loathe to see the format if DS is banned.
The worst byproduct of the increased frequency in ban/restricted announcements is that instead of people clamoring for SFM's un-ban just 2-3 times per year, it now feels like the topic is brought up every other week. If I had a nickel for every time someone beat that dead horse leading up to B&R announcements, I'd have enough to buy a SFM play set.
The largest, most reliable dataset I know of had the matchup at 50-50. Karsten wrote about it in early 2015 and I've seen the spreadsheet that informed his analysis. I have no idea where your numbers come from but I am going to defer to the N=1200 sample of real MTGO games for my stats.
Again, I have no idea how good an SFM Twinblade list is, but a) I guarantee you that you are underselling its effectiveness given SFM's performance across multiple formats, and b) I am very skeptical of your objectivity on all things related to Twin.
I feel it's worth pointing that a big reason for its success in Legacy is a card that isn't legal in Modern: Umezawa's Jitte. 90% of the time (well, technically 89.97%), Stoneforge Mystic is played with Umezawa's Jitte, which is banned in Modern. Sure, Stoneforge into Batterskull is still a powerful play, but it's not for nothing that 90% of all Legacy decks running the Mystic are running Umezawa's Jitte in addition. (source for the percentage: Searching for decks playing Stoneforge Mystic on MTG top 8 under Legacy decks, searching for decks running Stoneforge Mystic and Umezawa's Jitte, then dividing the second number by the first). Jitte is the better card to search for if your opponent is likely to just kill the Mystic, as you can get usage out of it right away whereas with Batterskull you have to wait. Without Jitte, a deck running Stoneforge Mystic is much more "all in" on trying to get the Batterskull into play and is weaker.
The largest, most reliable dataset I know of had the matchup at 50-50. Karsten wrote about it in early 2015 and I've seen the spreadsheet that informed his analysis. I have no idea where your numbers come from but I am going to defer to the N=1200 sample of real MTGO games for my stats.
Again, I have no idea how good an SFM Twinblade list is, but a) I guarantee you that you are underselling its effectiveness given SFM's performance across multiple formats, and b) I am very skeptical of your objectivity on all things related to Twin.
I feel it's worth pointing that a big reason for its success in Legacy is a card that isn't legal in Modern: Umezawa's Jitte. 90% of the time (well, technically 89.97%), Stoneforge Mystic is played with Umezawa's Jitte, which is banned in Modern. Sure, Stoneforge into Batterskull is still a powerful play, but it's not for nothing that 90% of all Legacy decks running the Mystic are running Umezawa's Jitte in addition. (source for the percentage: Searching for decks playing Stoneforge Mystic on MTG top 8 under Legacy decks, searching for decks running Stoneforge Mystic and Umezawa's Jitte, then dividing the second number by the first). Jitte is the better card to search for if your opponent is likely to just kill the Mystic, as you can get usage out of it right away whereas with Batterskull you have to wait. Without Jitte, a deck running Stoneforge Mystic is much more "all in" on trying to get the Batterskull into play and is weaker.
I don't think SFM would be as good in Modern as in Legacy. But I do think there is more than enough historical evidence to suggest the card would be played by a number of top-tier decks. I was just pushing back against CF who alleges that a Jeskai Twin list wouldn't run the card at all. I don't think many Jeskai list would deliberately eschew SFM if she got unbanned.
EDIT: Thats not even twin, its Grixis Kiki, and that that guy pulled out that record with that deck...well Turns has done it too.
Thats all I will say about that.
EDIT x 2: Its nearly midnight, obviously Surge..it cant have Twin as Twin was BANNED at that time.
If you think Twin would run TWO copies of Twin, in this world, and succeed though? No. Just no.
Hands are ripped down, Creatures are pushed, and the GY is Surgically Removed.
GG.
EDIT THE THIRD: Look at the Copy Cat record, that tells me that the event had zero respect for combo's, and some people got caught with their pants down.
Or are we going to claim Copy Cat is good?
And Goryo's...and MadCap....just get a Shape Anew deck in there and we are covered.
All this talk about tri-color decks and Tron being rampant is due to one big issue which wizards has not addressed: unchallenged nonbasic mana base in the first few turns. Unlike Legacy and Vintage which have Wasteland to provide some form of disruption early on, we in Modern unfortunately only have Ghost Quarter which puts you in such disadvantage or Tectonic edge that is a turn too late. We need something to meddle up the greedy mana bases the top tier decks early on in play, NOT MORE BANNINGS! God I hope they reprint Armageddon to shut everyone up.
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"Battle doesn't need a purpose; the battle is its own purpose. You don't ask why a plague spreads or a field burns. Don't ask why I fight."
The worst byproduct of the increased frequency in ban/restricted announcements is that instead of people clamoring for SFM's un-ban just 2-3 times per year, it now feels like the topic is brought up every other week. If I had a nickel for every time someone beat that dead horse leading up to B&R announcements, I'd have enough to buy a SFM play set.
Maybe you should buy it now before it gets unbanned and the price spikes.
EDIT THE THIRD: Look at the Copy Cat record, that tells me that the event had zero respect for combo's, and some people got caught with their pants down.
Or are we going to claim Copy Cat is good?
As the person who actually got 25th place at the recent SCG Modern Open with Jeskai Saheeli, I can assure you that I faced many decks with interaction and still won. If you want to go to the CopyCat thread and read my actual tournament report before making blind assertions, you are free to do so.
Regardless, a deck is only as good as the metagame it is in. If I can go 11-4 in a large tournament with a deck that is hardly played, it means I made the correct meta call for what to play in the tournament. Picking the right deck to play in a tournament is, arguably, more than half the battle in Modern.
You say the event had zero respect for combos, but you just said right before it that hands are ripped apart in the Modern format. So tell me: is your argument that this tournament was a fluke, or maybe combos are much better positioned than you claim them to be?
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Price of Progress would be a sweet card to have in modern as an answer to the heavy non-basic decks
No, thanks. It would be totally broken in Modern.
For about a week until Modern has a detox of it's super greedy mana.
Why should every deck in the fornat be forced to be a 2 color deck so that a tier 1 deck can play POP? It doesn't help the format, it makes it worse. Just stop. This is worse than people asking for a dig through time unban.
Top 8:
1st: RG Titanshift
2nd: Bant Eldrazi
3rd-4th: GR Tron, Mardu Burn
5th-8th: Grixis Shadow, Dredge, Storm, Affinity
Top 32 Breakdown:
4 RG Titanshift
3 Affinity
3 Grixis Shadow
3 Storm
3 UW Control
3 Gx Tron (1 GR, 1 GB, 1 GW)
2 Dredge
2 Eldra Tron
2 Lantern Control
1 Abzan Aggro
1 Abzan Company
1 Bant Eldrazi
1 GB Traverse
1 Grixis-White Shadow
1 Jund Midrange
1 Mardu Burn
Another diverse event, but not that much interactive, tbh. Top 8 is great, has 8 different decks, but only 1 clearly interactive one(Grixis Shadow) and a semi interactive one(Bant Eldrazi).
Top 32 has 8 or 9 interactive decks, out of all of the 32, which means only ~30% of the decks are interactive ones. That's not too bad, not too good too.
Thus, we reached a point where it's safe to say Modern is crazy diverse. One problem though is that it's not that much strategically diverse and that it is not that much interactive, which is a slight concern.
To that end, I would fully accept a Stoneforge Mystic unban in August and no bans, but I am not that much optimistic.
NO CHANGES IN MODERN is what we are getting.
Yep. I haven't seen anything in any tournament that would induce changes to Modern from WotC. No bans. No unbans.
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WoTC, thank you for finally announcing the Modern format, an eternal format where everyone can participate.
Why does Burn (or whomever) need a way to deal with greedy manabases anyway? Shocklands already do that for them, basically netting them a free burn spell or two each game if their opponent wants to cast their spells on time. If you mean hate towards Tron/Eldrazi-Tron, then they already do pretty well against Tron and Eldrazi-Tron is a problem but you don't need to hate out every deck that plays 3 colors/nonbasics. As others have mentioned, there are far better ways to introduce land hate that would not only be accessible to a wider variety of decks, but also would warp the format much less. Price of Progress would only decrease format diversity.
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Yep. I haven't seen anything in any tournament that would induce changes to Modern from WotC. No bans. No unbans.
I'd be inclined to agree, but it's too soon to tell. We gotta remember that GP Top8s are the most important datapoints and we still have a couple of those coming up.
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Modern:WU WU Control | WBG Abzan Company Frontier:UBR Grixis Control | BRG Jund Delirium
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AV goes in the SB and you bring in your 3-4 copies for all the grindy matchups, improving them dramatically. Twin vs. BGx was already about 50-50 despite that allegedly being an unfavorable matchup, so I imagine AV just makes it at least a few points better.
SFM goes right into Jeskai Twin, trimming any number of cards from Bianchi's winning list at GP Pittsburgh in late 2015. -1 Wall, -1 Kiki, -1 Angel, -1 Snare already gets you 4 slots, and then you just need 1-2 more depending on your preference.
I have no idea if those decks are too strong, but let's not pretend that Twin couldn't accommodate those cards.
Only three color/tron decks would have to dedicate more seriously to burn then. However, I was going on saying that 3 color/ perfect mana has been the norm in modern. A sudden shift to less greedy mana bases would seem abnormal to what has been the norm. It's not necessarily bad, but depends on what you want out the format.
~Edit~
Also another point in that "wall of text" was the a sudden shift like that would probably lead to a lot unhappy players.
I loathe creatures! Praise Prison and Land Destruction!
My Peasant Cube (looking for feedback)
I'm guessing their reasoning for eschewing the hate cards was the idea that stuff like Aetherworks Marvel could be contained by the other decks doing their own powerful stuff. Which actually did work... Aetherworks Marvel wasn't the top deck. The top deck was UW Aggro, and it wasn't as dominant as Collected Company or Abzan or Monoblack Devotion had been in preceding Standards. Standard was, strictly speaking, at one of its most diverse in years. The problem was that, even if there technically were a number of different strategies without anything being dominant, players didn't enjoy a format where the only way to deal with your opponent playing Aetherworks Marvel (or whatever else they were doing) was to do your own super powerful strategy.
Twin/GBx matchup was at least 55/45 in favor of GBx, depending on how you weight each individual game odds. A while ago I ran some basic calculations on the commonly accepted matchup numbers to correlate that (attached). Don't know what it would be today, but Jund is currently irrelevant, Shadow would tear it to pieces, and Eldrazi builds would give plenty of headaches as well.
You could take those out of that list. But you are removing a card draw engine/blocker/blink target, two combo pieces (one serves double duty as flying attacker and flicker), a piece of interaction, plus another two cards (either card draw or interaction), in a version of the deck already down on combo pieces (5 tappers 3 Twin leftover). Wall, Kiki, Resto, and Snare all facilitate the main game plan of the deck (draw cards, protect yourself, chip away damage, combo off). SFM does none of those things and is purely a value play at the cost of 6-7 slots (4 SFM 2-3 BS/Sword/etc). If you want to play the grindy value Twin game, you are so much better served with Tasigur and K Command. SFM itself would likely be much better in builds not cluttered with another 10 card combo. If both were legal, would people try to jam it? Sure. Would it be the ideal build? I don't think it would even be in the top 3 builds.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
Again, I have no idea how good an SFM Twinblade list is, but a) I guarantee you that you are underselling its effectiveness given SFM's performance across multiple formats, and b) I am very skeptical of your objectivity on all things related to Twin.
I'd actually love to see that article or data. I think it must have been published before I played Modern full time.
Edit: was this it? https://www.channelfireball.com/articles/magic-math-the-new-modern-by-the-numbers/ It has similar numbers, but based on "50-200 games" for each.
SFM is laughably weak in the current field of Modern; dominated by fast, powerful strategies backed up by massive amounts of discard and creature removal. SFM's place in other formats is entirely irrelevant to Modern. But all in all, none of this really matters. Wizards has shown time and time again they are unwilling to bring either back (or into) Modern, despite multiple prime opportunities. We're just arguing meaningless opinions with people who don't matter and don't actually influence policy. As much as both are totally safe to be in Modern (along with Jace and BBE), every update tells me it's less and less likely to ever actually happen. Wizards will literally find any and all reason to either avoid unbanning anything, or avoid EVEN TALKING ABOUT THE FORMAT in B&R updates. We will continue a race to the bottom unless something actually changes.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
They're trying to play a creature-based combo in a format defined by discard spells and creature removal, and their backup beatdown plan is dilluted in order to facilitate the combo.
As a side note, its suppression is exactly why I keep saying Twin would be absolutely fine in today's meta.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
By that I mean, is powering out a turn 2 Tasigur/ Gurmag Angler with Stubborn Denial backup still a good enough strategy? Do you just replace Death's Shadow with Delver or do you find something else to fit that slot instead (preferably another 4+ powered creature)?
Modern:
UWUW Control
UBRGrixis Shadow
URIzzet Phoenix
Are you running hot, with your Delver's instantly flipping on demand as evasive 3/2's, or do they stumble as 1/1's as a horrific top deck when compared to the 5/5 Deaths Shadow.
Like lets make no mistake, DS is a brutal good card these days, its like T1 to Developing Competitive levels. You may spike an event as Delver Grixis, but you may also not flip your delvers and just lose to yourself.
Spirits
Oh god, eldrazi tron would massacre grixis delver and control decks, they'd also have to slog against the big mana and GY decks. They'd be bad decks.
If DS is banned, I wouldn't play Delver for those reasons, plus the fact that I'd expect a resurgence of burn to combat the big-mana/eldrazi decks. If the Tron decks weren't so consistent at hitting Tron T3 it would be more manageable. I feel like these decks are a turn too fast. I had my last few eldrazi tron opponents open tron land into map into T3 tron 5 games in a row, followed by Karn's and Newlamog. It's like they get to play the best mid-range creatures and go over the top of everyone. Blegh. I loathe to see the format if DS is banned.
Link to Discord server where anybody from MTGS can keep up with thread topics while everything is being sorted out with the new site.
I don't think SFM would be as good in Modern as in Legacy. But I do think there is more than enough historical evidence to suggest the card would be played by a number of top-tier decks. I was just pushing back against CF who alleges that a Jeskai Twin list wouldn't run the card at all. I don't think many Jeskai list would deliberately eschew SFM if she got unbanned.
EDIT: Thats not even twin, its Grixis Kiki, and that that guy pulled out that record with that deck...well Turns has done it too.
Thats all I will say about that.
EDIT x 2: Its nearly midnight, obviously Surge..it cant have Twin as Twin was BANNED at that time.
If you think Twin would run TWO copies of Twin, in this world, and succeed though? No. Just no.
Hands are ripped down, Creatures are pushed, and the GY is Surgically Removed.
GG.
EDIT THE THIRD: Look at the Copy Cat record, that tells me that the event had zero respect for combo's, and some people got caught with their pants down.
Or are we going to claim Copy Cat is good?
And Goryo's...and MadCap....just get a Shape Anew deck in there and we are covered.
Spirits
Maybe you should buy it now before it gets unbanned and the price spikes.
As the person who actually got 25th place at the recent SCG Modern Open with Jeskai Saheeli, I can assure you that I faced many decks with interaction and still won. If you want to go to the CopyCat thread and read my actual tournament report before making blind assertions, you are free to do so.
Regardless, a deck is only as good as the metagame it is in. If I can go 11-4 in a large tournament with a deck that is hardly played, it means I made the correct meta call for what to play in the tournament. Picking the right deck to play in a tournament is, arguably, more than half the battle in Modern.
You say the event had zero respect for combos, but you just said right before it that hands are ripped apart in the Modern format. So tell me: is your argument that this tournament was a fluke, or maybe combos are much better positioned than you claim them to be?
For about a week until Modern has a detox of it's super greedy mana.
Why should every deck in the fornat be forced to be a 2 color deck so that a tier 1 deck can play POP? It doesn't help the format, it makes it worse. Just stop. This is worse than people asking for a dig through time unban.
Yep. I haven't seen anything in any tournament that would induce changes to Modern from WotC. No bans. No unbans.
WOTC will very likely have a no ban no unban result, but I expect there being a generous chance of a grixis ban of some sort being possible, too.
They definitely won't unban, they will point to diversity, unless they have numbers saying otherwise that we don't have access to.
Frontier: UBR Grixis Control | BRG Jund Delirium