Preordain is too strong currently with Grixis DS and Storm where they are. SFM is fine. Not sure about the other two.
What you say for preordain is probably right in that Wizards won't do it because of Storm mainly, but I don't think that the power level of the card changes depending on the decks that are actually playing the card.
No matter what combo or other decks we have in the format, Serum Visions is left behind as a one-mana cantrip nowadays. This is not to say it's a bad card, but it's mediocre or just good in a format we do have a lot of great consistency tools(for example Ancient Stirrings).
That said, I think Preordain would not be too strong in the current format, but just as strong as it needs to be.
(Still Wizards won't unban the card probably)
Let's see what happens when August rolls around. I don't have much faith in Wizards unbanning something. They're just so conservative it borders on pathetic.
Gkourou, stop being coy, preordain is way too dangerous to unban because of Grixis, not UR Storm. Storm is just the cherry on top. I get that you don't want the deck banned but I am often, in my view, reading quite a strong bias from you pertaining to the death shadow deck
Unbanning Twin and preordain would be a huge unban risk that I don't think is good nor worth the risk.
Sheridan, how on earth can you feel SFM is a safe unban but BBE isn't? You've said yourself, the card really wasn't deserving of a ban
In Jund, BBE's upmost devastating plays would be
Elf into Goyf
Elf into LOTV
Elf into K-Command
Then we get into the variance were you just casted a 4 mana 3/2 body that did absolutely nothing for all that mana
How is this scarier than 1 mana 9/9s?! Goryos into Emerakuls, Etched Champions putting 7 counters onto etched champion, gift ungiven into a 10 minute solitaire victory...
I honestly don't see Twin being detrimental to this format anymore, I truly mean that.
Cfusion nailed it, jund and twins roles have literally been canobolized into one deck because one was banned and the other couldn't deal with all the big mana and graveyard decks.
I think WOTC needs to incentize players to play fair decks, I don't think fair decks will suddenly become good or viable with grixis shadow out of the picture, I'm actually really worried how linear the meta will become
Outside of fun and loyalty, there is NO reason to play normal old Jund, give it a reason! Give a reason for players to create Temur and see if it has legs
Make Abzan an even larger predator to Shadow, make death and taxes a scary deck. Mardu may actually be a deck if SFM comes to light, the decks been missing a win con. Mardu has so much good removal, terminate, path, push, bolt, anger, crackling doom, K-Command---it could be a real deck
Or we could just ban shadow and predictably wait for Tron/Eldrazi to receive a predictable ban and see if WOTC can focus on nerfing dredge more.
Preordain is too much of a boost in Shadow in its current iteration. Without Street Wraith(which is the number one card to go in August if they decide to keep Shadow as a thing) Preordain is not that scary anymore as it doesn't further the suicide plan, instead it lets you dig for your cards.
Storm is the only strategy that makes Preordain risky if they make the right bannings. I think axing Grapeshot is a net win for the format, much like Twin was seen at the time of its ban as a lock for cards to get printed and unbanned(Av was quoted by Aaron Forsythe).
Twin is not coming off now or never regardless Preordain is banned or not. AV is the nail in the coffin in Wotc eyes.
Let's see what happens when August rolls around. I don't have much faith in Wizards unbanning something. They're just so conservative it borders on pathetic.
I couldn't have said it better myself. Honestly they probably have their own little justification since when they unbanned Golgari Grave-Troll, it ended up needing a reban. There probably is no consideration for printing Insolent Neonate and Cathartic Reunion. They just see it as a failure for GGT to be not broken in Modern (although there are so many other factors).
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
GGT wasn't broken during the unban, a lot of people expressed what a joke the unban was and the decision for it
But WOTC did break it---but hey, at least we know GGT is bad for the format. A year from now, we won't be looking back and wondering if GGT is broken. We can easily go another six years and probably not ever bring the card again
If SFM proved to be broken, at least we'd all be like, "welp, they were right, it deserves its own tomb".
I was watching Jessup getting his ass kicked on camera yesterday in the mirror, and he cantripped into cantrips like 3 times digging for an answer
Modern is growing in power level, I'm not sure it'll hit legacy levels, but it's definitely closing the gap, unbans should definitely be tested.
I'm not even 100% sure BBE would be good, forget about broken
I just want them to start letting supplemental sets in Modern. It's obvious that their initial desire, which was to have Modern be where rotated out Standard decks go for retirement is a pipe dream and will never work. I can't think of any decks that slotted into Modern from Standard without undergoing significant changes - significant enough that the idea that a player's favourite Standard deck with some upgrade being playable in Modern on a competitive level is just untrue.
Then we could get cards of a power level that they inexplicably think is too strong for Standard (why the hell is Mana Leak too strong for Standard but you feel fine printing Aetherworks Marvel!?) and actually start working on fixing the colour balance.
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Well, I can saw a woman in two, but you won't wanna look in the box when I'm through.
GGT wasn't broken during the unban, a lot of people expressed what a joke the unban was and the decision for it
But WOTC did break it---but hey, at least we know GGT is bad for the format. A year from now, we won't be looking back and wondering if GGT is broken. We can easily go another six years and probably not ever bring the card again
If SFM proved to be broken, at least we'd all be like, "welp, they were right, it deserves its own tomb".
I was watching Jessup getting his ass kicked on camera yesterday in the mirror, and he cantripped into cantrips like 3 times digging for an answer
Modern is growing in power level, I'm not sure it'll hit legacy levels, but it's definitely closing the gap, unbans should definitely be tested.
I'm not even 100% sure BBE would be good, forget about broken
My issue with the ggt ban is that the cards they printed in standard that are the issue don't even see play in standard! So did they try to print them for modern or did they just fail that bad in standard yet again. Sure a couple tiny sights of hug/neonate/prized were seen but they were never really a big part of the meta that I remember. I still think had hug never been printed ggt would still be fine as the deck wasn't nearly as explosive. Although I'm fairly alone on this I think they did ban the wrong card.
In the end I just hope the changes wotc is making help. I think the hire of cheon is a bright spot because he has a love for modern and has a fairly level head when it comes to the format.
I heard some people talking the other day about the possibility of Chalice of the Void getting the ban. They also mentioned Blood Moon as a contender.
Personally the idea seemed kind of weird to me, as both are legal in Legacy where they hose way more decks than in Modern... Plus neither is particularly meta-dominating. Admittedly, both lead to some feel-bad games, and sometimes that's what Wizards cares about.
11 different decks out of the 14 total. Between Grixis Shadow being 2 out of 14 here, 2 out of 13 of the 13-2s at GP Vegas, and a total of 2 top 8s between 3 GPs so far, I think the people calling for a ban just don't have the numbers backing them up. I don't see how you look at these numbers and say the deck is oppressing the format, although I'm sure a certain someone on here and reddit will try to spin it that way.
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Modern UBR Grixis Shadow UBR UR Izzet Phoenix UR UW UW Control UW GB GB Rock GB
Commander BG Meren of Clan Nel Toth BG BGUW Atraxa, Praetor's Voice BGUW
@Wraith that invi was semi-Modern, semi-Standard.
In before people try bashing you with that. The results are of 50% importance.
That doesn't change the numbers. These are still the decks people brought and the top 8 is modern where we'll see 3-5 game matches untimed. Looking forward to 4 hrs of lantern today lol.
11 different decks out of the 14 total. Between Grixis Shadow being 2 out of 14 here, 2 out of 13 of the 13-2s at GP Vegas, and a total of 2 top 8s between 3 GPs so far, I think the people calling for a ban just don't have the numbers backing them up. I don't see how you look at these numbers and say the deck is oppressing the format, although I'm sure a certain someone on here and reddit will try to spin it that way.
Yep. All I see is a very diverse and healthy metagame here.
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WoTC, thank you for finally announcing the Modern format, an eternal format where everyone can participate.
The reason I never see twin coming off the ban list is Ancestral Vision. The game plan of twin is literally to stall until they can go to the combo (or just control the game long enough to win with 2-3 power on the board), there is no way that Ancestral Visions doesn't fit into the strategy. I don't think it makes it that much stronger, but together with the design restriction it presents, which they already noted before letting a powerful blue card of the ban list, that certainly doesn't make twin any worse.
11 different decks out of the 14 total. Between Grixis Shadow being 2 out of 14 here, 2 out of 13 of the 13-2s at GP Vegas, and a total of 2 top 8s between 3 GPs so far, I think the people calling for a ban just don't have the numbers backing them up. I don't see how you look at these numbers and say the deck is oppressing the format, although I'm sure a certain someone on here and reddit will try to spin it that way.
Yep. All I see is a very diverse and healthy metagame here.
it is, but we lack U and even more W tho. it is a good meta probably, but it can be a lot better
11 different decks out of the 14 total. Between Grixis Shadow being 2 out of 14 here, 2 out of 13 of the 13-2s at GP Vegas, and a total of 2 top 8s between 3 GPs so far, I think the people calling for a ban just don't have the numbers backing them up. I don't see how you look at these numbers and say the deck is oppressing the format, although I'm sure a certain someone on here and reddit will try to spin it that way.
Yep. All I see is a very diverse and healthy metagame here.
these numbers are quite telling about how important shadow decks are in keeping eldrazi in check.
I heard some people talking the other day about the possibility of Chalice of the Void getting the ban. They also mentioned Blood Moon as a contender.
Personally the idea seemed kind of weird to me, as both are legal in Legacy where they hose way more decks than in Modern... Plus neither is particularly meta-dominating. Admittedly, both lead to some feel-bad games, and sometimes that's what Wizards cares about.
What do you all think?
Legacy impact doesn't affect whether or not cards get banned in Modern, and there are certainly a number of decks in Modern that get hosed by a T1 Chalice or a T2 Blood Moon.
That being said, the only T1 deck maindecking Chalice is Eldrazi Tron, which has a reasonably healthy meta share, and virtually none of the T1 decks even have Blood Moon in the 75. "This card leads to feel-bad games" on its own is not a good enough reason to ban a card, especially in eternal formats like Modern
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Decks
Modern: UWUW Control UBRGrixis Shadow URIzzet Phoenix
Preordain is too strong currently with Grixis DS and Storm where they are. SFM is fine. Not sure about the other two.
What you say for preordain is probably right in that Wizards won't do it because of Storm mainly, but I don't think that the power level of the card changes depending on the decks that are actually playing the card.
No matter what combo or other decks we have in the format, Serum Visions is left behind as a one-mana cantrip nowadays. This is not to say it's a bad card, but it's mediocre or just good in a format we do have a lot of great consistency tools(for example Ancient Stirrings).
That said, I think Preordain would not be too strong in the current format, but just as strong as it needs to be.
(Still Wizards won't unban the card probably)
Having that kind of consistency for no opportunity cost except for playing island is dangerous. Serum Visions cannot be compared to stirrings or any of the other consistency tools in green currently used. The consistency tools in green require you to pigeonhole yourself into certain deck building limitations which is why they are more powerful. No matter how much people say serum visions is mediocre it is still a consistency tool that can be played in a pile of good cards unlike stirrings. It is the same reason why coco can exist in modern while blue draw spells like dig cannot. Coco cheats mana while also giving you card advantage but dig is unbiased towards cards types which makes it much more dangerous. A world where storm has both visions, and preordain and twin has both serum and preordain is a scary one.
I have to say, despite Grixis being the best deck, the meta in this tournament looks good, it's pretty diverse.
I do also think it's telling that Shadow is very much keeping E-Tron in check, because E-Tron has also been doing very well in tournaments, less people are complaining about it on stream, interestingly enough
I have to say, despite Grixis being the best deck, the meta in this tournament looks good, it's pretty diverse.
I do also think it's telling that Shadow is very much keeping E-Tron in check, because E-Tron has also been doing very well in tournaments, less people are complaining about it on stream, interestingly enough
I think the fact that shadow preys on E Tron is why it is best otherwise I think E Tron is at a higher power level overall considering the rest of the metagame. Some people believe E-Tron is the actually best deck in modern including myself. Even with GDS being so popular Eldrazi is still putting up good numbers.
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Let's see what happens when August rolls around. I don't have much faith in Wizards unbanning something. They're just so conservative it borders on pathetic.
Unbanning Twin and preordain would be a huge unban risk that I don't think is good nor worth the risk.
Sheridan, how on earth can you feel SFM is a safe unban but BBE isn't? You've said yourself, the card really wasn't deserving of a ban
In Jund, BBE's upmost devastating plays would be
Elf into Goyf
Elf into LOTV
Elf into K-Command
Then we get into the variance were you just casted a 4 mana 3/2 body that did absolutely nothing for all that mana
How is this scarier than 1 mana 9/9s?! Goryos into Emerakuls, Etched Champions putting 7 counters onto etched champion, gift ungiven into a 10 minute solitaire victory...
I honestly don't see Twin being detrimental to this format anymore, I truly mean that.
Cfusion nailed it, jund and twins roles have literally been canobolized into one deck because one was banned and the other couldn't deal with all the big mana and graveyard decks.
Outside of fun and loyalty, there is NO reason to play normal old Jund, give it a reason! Give a reason for players to create Temur and see if it has legs
Make Abzan an even larger predator to Shadow, make death and taxes a scary deck. Mardu may actually be a deck if SFM comes to light, the decks been missing a win con. Mardu has so much good removal, terminate, path, push, bolt, anger, crackling doom, K-Command---it could be a real deck
Or we could just ban shadow and predictably wait for Tron/Eldrazi to receive a predictable ban and see if WOTC can focus on nerfing dredge more.
Storm is the only strategy that makes Preordain risky if they make the right bannings. I think axing Grapeshot is a net win for the format, much like Twin was seen at the time of its ban as a lock for cards to get printed and unbanned(Av was quoted by Aaron Forsythe).
Twin is not coming off now or never regardless Preordain is banned or not. AV is the nail in the coffin in Wotc eyes.
With a warning in the announcement, that they are willing to retract all 3.
All three at once, pull off the bandaid and see what happens. If it's a disaster, well, put them back on the list!
The only reason they won't, is that's a lot of stored goodwill capital to fire off at one time.
Spirits
Than again, I don't think the average player drops 500 to 2,000 on a deck without some extensive research
Players who are educated on what's going on, and would already have invested hundreds.
Or, players who would look before they leap, or wouldn't care anyway.
Spirits
I couldn't have said it better myself. Honestly they probably have their own little justification since when they unbanned Golgari Grave-Troll, it ended up needing a reban. There probably is no consideration for printing Insolent Neonate and Cathartic Reunion. They just see it as a failure for GGT to be not broken in Modern (although there are so many other factors).
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)But WOTC did break it---but hey, at least we know GGT is bad for the format. A year from now, we won't be looking back and wondering if GGT is broken. We can easily go another six years and probably not ever bring the card again
If SFM proved to be broken, at least we'd all be like, "welp, they were right, it deserves its own tomb".
I was watching Jessup getting his ass kicked on camera yesterday in the mirror, and he cantripped into cantrips like 3 times digging for an answer
Modern is growing in power level, I'm not sure it'll hit legacy levels, but it's definitely closing the gap, unbans should definitely be tested.
I'm not even 100% sure BBE would be good, forget about broken
Then we could get cards of a power level that they inexplicably think is too strong for Standard (why the hell is Mana Leak too strong for Standard but you feel fine printing Aetherworks Marvel!?) and actually start working on fixing the colour balance.
My issue with the ggt ban is that the cards they printed in standard that are the issue don't even see play in standard! So did they try to print them for modern or did they just fail that bad in standard yet again. Sure a couple tiny sights of hug/neonate/prized were seen but they were never really a big part of the meta that I remember. I still think had hug never been printed ggt would still be fine as the deck wasn't nearly as explosive. Although I'm fairly alone on this I think they did ban the wrong card.
In the end I just hope the changes wotc is making help. I think the hire of cheon is a bright spot because he has a love for modern and has a fairly level head when it comes to the format.
Personally the idea seemed kind of weird to me, as both are legal in Legacy where they hose way more decks than in Modern... Plus neither is particularly meta-dominating. Admittedly, both lead to some feel-bad games, and sometimes that's what Wizards cares about.
What do you all think?
Tymna & Ishai, ie Esper Edric
Crosis Turbotrash
Eldrazi Tron - 3
Grixis Shadow - 2
Ponza - 1
Jund - 1
Lantern - 1
Abzan - 1
Esper Shadow - 1
BG Midrange - 1
Affinity - 1
Living End - 1
RG Breach - 1
11 different decks out of the 14 total. Between Grixis Shadow being 2 out of 14 here, 2 out of 13 of the 13-2s at GP Vegas, and a total of 2 top 8s between 3 GPs so far, I think the people calling for a ban just don't have the numbers backing them up. I don't see how you look at these numbers and say the deck is oppressing the format, although I'm sure a certain someone on here and reddit will try to spin it that way.
UBR Grixis Shadow UBR
UR Izzet Phoenix UR
UW UW Control UW
GB GB Rock GB
Commander
BG Meren of Clan Nel Toth BG
BGUW Atraxa, Praetor's Voice BGUW
That doesn't change the numbers. These are still the decks people brought and the top 8 is modern where we'll see 3-5 game matches untimed. Looking forward to 4 hrs of lantern today lol.
Yep. All I see is a very diverse and healthy metagame here.
If by King you mean top tier then I guess..... Otherwise that's a hyperbolic statement.
And this would balance archtype and colour better.
Hmmm wonder why people want that?
I'd settle for SFM instead of twin also..
decks playing:
none
it is, but we lack U and even more W tho. it is a good meta probably, but it can be a lot better
URW PillowFort Stasis (costruction)
modern:
U Taking Turns combo
pauper:
UB Servitor Control
xenob8 : you know you are going to have a bad time when opponent starts with snow covered island
decks playing:
none
Of course wizards will use this recent success to proclaim that "white is in a great place right now, no need to unban Stoneforge"
That being said, the only T1 deck maindecking Chalice is Eldrazi Tron, which has a reasonably healthy meta share, and virtually none of the T1 decks even have Blood Moon in the 75. "This card leads to feel-bad games" on its own is not a good enough reason to ban a card, especially in eternal formats like Modern
Modern:
UWUW Control
UBRGrixis Shadow
URIzzet Phoenix
decks playing:
none
Having that kind of consistency for no opportunity cost except for playing island is dangerous. Serum Visions cannot be compared to stirrings or any of the other consistency tools in green currently used. The consistency tools in green require you to pigeonhole yourself into certain deck building limitations which is why they are more powerful. No matter how much people say serum visions is mediocre it is still a consistency tool that can be played in a pile of good cards unlike stirrings. It is the same reason why coco can exist in modern while blue draw spells like dig cannot. Coco cheats mana while also giving you card advantage but dig is unbiased towards cards types which makes it much more dangerous. A world where storm has both visions, and preordain and twin has both serum and preordain is a scary one.
Edit: Meant preordain not Ponder.
I do also think it's telling that Shadow is very much keeping E-Tron in check, because E-Tron has also been doing very well in tournaments, less people are complaining about it on stream, interestingly enough
I think the fact that shadow preys on E Tron is why it is best otherwise I think E Tron is at a higher power level overall considering the rest of the metagame. Some people believe E-Tron is the actually best deck in modern including myself. Even with GDS being so popular Eldrazi is still putting up good numbers.