Best deck in the format is a Thoughtseize deck with quick clock, things that don't die to Bolt, and counterspells? Rest of the format is powerful, mostly linear degeneracy or big mana? Seems like a good time for it to come back, honestly.
I agree, 100%, and if you remember I'm on the 'it was an unjust ban' train from day 1. That doesnt change the fact that I doubt it will come back.
The meta would need a really huge shakeup for Twin
I think we see a BBE or SFM unban first.
Really curious to see how much Grixis Shadow does by early August, I think we'll have a better idea where WOTC will go, it's fairly difficult to predict right now
The meta would need a really huge shakeup for Twin
I think we see a BBE or SFM unban first.
Really curious to see how much Grixis Shadow does by early August, I think we'll have a better idea where WOTC will go, it's fairly difficult to predict right now
It's almost like Wizards does this on purpose.... All the big Modern events are jammed into a single weekend, several months apart, and in-between set releases. It allows them a never-ending fountain of excuses not to unban things. Between the "who can guess the meta and bring hate" GP Top 8s and "let's see what the new set brings," I doubt we will actually see any unbans for quite a while, even if a number of cards would likely be totally safe in today's Modern (SFM, BBE, Jace, Twin).
The meta would need a really huge shakeup for Twin
I think we see a BBE or SFM unban first.
Really curious to see how much Grixis Shadow does by early August, I think we'll have a better idea where WOTC will go, it's fairly difficult to predict right now
It's almost like Wizards does this on purpose.... All the big Modern events are jammed into a single weekend, several months apart, and in-between set releases. It allows them a never-ending fountain of excuses not to unban things. Between the "who can guess the meta and bring hate" GP Top 8s and "let's see what the new set brings," I doubt we will actually see any unbans for quite a while, even if a number of cards would likely be totally safe in today's Modern (SFM, BBE, Jace, Twin).
Well, they definitely structure the calendar on purpose, but there's no way it has anything to do with the banlist. That's just a wild allegation. There are so many other corporate, logistical, marketing, and other factors that influence these decisions before the Modern banlist of all things. I'd be shocked of R&D even talked with the organized play scheduling team.
Come on guys, if banning 5 cards is ok, so it will be ok if its 10. Modern is a non rotation format means = never ban anythink? Strange argument if the reality is a ban policy. so lets ban all the ***** mistakes in the past of this game. Dont care about if 10 bans more in this game. Mistake = ban. Dont be so frightened and kill the biggest mistakes in the history of this game. So easy
There's a reason everyone is arguing with you.
Sometimes bans are necessary, but the nice thing about modern is you can buy a deck and 5 years later still play the same deck. I first got into modern before going off to basic training, and I knew I wouldn't be able to play Magic while I was in basic training and at my first training base. I don't play standard because I don't want to spend a bunch of money on a standard deck, get sent on a deployment, and come back to learn that key cards in my deck rotated out.
The nice thing about modern is you can buy expensive cards and then use them for the rest of your life, and Wizards makes money off of this by selling modern masters boxes which have expensive modern staples.
Why not ban 10 problem cards? Because there aren't 10 problem cards in modern. If Wizards decided to ban death's shadow, Eldrazi temple, Collected Company, Urza's Tower, Tarmogoyf, Bob, Edilon of the great revel, mox opal, snapcaster mage, and grapeshot, then everyone who paid money for those cards and has been using them in decks would be pissed and feel like they got ripped off. Also, if you did that then you might have the issue in standard where they do a bunch of bans and a new deck emerges as a tier 0 deck. Modern is in a good place right now.
What Wizards should do is no bans, and unban Twin and BBE. Twin would stuggle with so much fatal push now. Part of the reason Twin was so good is because DE survived bolt which was the most common removal spell at the time. Also, bolt no longer being the best removal spell would mean Twin wouldn't be as good at stopping the current decks. Eldrazi Tron with cavern of souls, Elves with cavern of souls, Grixis Death's shadow, affinity, Abzan Coco, and dredge would all present challenges to for Twin to control.
BBE being banned now is a joke. Jund midrange isn't even tier 2, BBE took the ban for DRS, the card costs 80 cents, and Collected Company is more powerful.
I disliked Twin as a deck, even though some of my most fun games involved me playing against it. The fact that you always had to be wary of the combo from turn 3 onwards, even if they only have one card in hand or even zero cards in hand and just a piece on the board was annoying and warped the format, since back then it didn't have as many tools as we have now to deal with creatures.
In all honest, I don't care about Twin being on the banned list. I didn't care when it was put on, I don't care that it's on, and I probably won't care when it comes off; I play the cards they give me, more or less.
I think Twin is a low risk unban target - compared to, say, Pod, or Grave Troll, or even Gitaxian Probe.
I do wish we could have meaningful discussions about the format without it immediately going to "unban Twin", though.
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Well, I can saw a woman in two, but you won't wanna look in the box when I'm through.
The meta would need a really huge shakeup for Twin
I think we see a BBE or SFM unban first.
Really curious to see how much Grixis Shadow does by early August, I think we'll have a better idea where WOTC will go, it's fairly difficult to predict right now
It's almost like Wizards does this on purpose.... All the big Modern events are jammed into a single weekend, several months apart, and in-between set releases. It allows them a never-ending fountain of excuses not to unban things. Between the "who can guess the meta and bring hate" GP Top 8s and "let's see what the new set brings," I doubt we will actually see any unbans for quite a while, even if a number of cards would likely be totally safe in today's Modern (SFM, BBE, Jace, Twin).
Well, they definitely structure the calendar on purpose, but there's no way it has anything to do with the banlist. That's just a wild allegation. There are so many other corporate, logistical, marketing, and other factors that influence these decisions before the Modern banlist of all things. I'd be shocked of R&D even talked with the organized play scheduling team.
I'm guessing it's not directly tied to the ban list, but aligns perfectly with their desire to limit deck information as much as possible. Right now, all we get is a random selection of non-Swiss MTGO events and GPs every 3-4 months. Just the right trickle of info to make us think we have a picture of things while also providing no real concrete picture of the format. Do this long enough, and people just say screw it and play "gotcha" decks that people haven't prepared for or "safe bets" like Death's Shadow or linear.dec. Generate the illusion of format health because most of the time people have no idea what's really going on, especially if these infrequent GP Top 8s are used to paint that picture. They get to point to these results and say "See? The format is great!", dust their hands, and then ignore the format another 4 months.
The meta would need a really huge shakeup for Twin
I think we see a BBE or SFM unban first.
Really curious to see how much Grixis Shadow does by early August, I think we'll have a better idea where WOTC will go, it's fairly difficult to predict right now
It's almost like Wizards does this on purpose.... All the big Modern events are jammed into a single weekend, several months apart, and in-between set releases. It allows them a never-ending fountain of excuses not to unban things. Between the "who can guess the meta and bring hate" GP Top 8s and "let's see what the new set brings," I doubt we will actually see any unbans for quite a while, even if a number of cards would likely be totally safe in today's Modern (SFM, BBE, Jace, Twin).
Well, they definitely structure the calendar on purpose, but there's no way it has anything to do with the banlist. That's just a wild allegation. There are so many other corporate, logistical, marketing, and other factors that influence these decisions before the Modern banlist of all things. I'd be shocked of R&D even talked with the organized play scheduling team.
I'm guessing it's not directly tied to the ban list, but aligns perfectly with their desire to limit deck information as much as possible. Right now, all we get is a random selection of non-Swiss MTGO events and GPs every 3-4 months. Just the right trickle of info to make us think we have a picture of things while also providing no real concrete picture of the format. Do this long enough, and people just say screw it and play "gotcha" decks that people haven't prepared for or "safe bets" like Death's Shadow or linear.dec. Generate the illusion of format health because most of the time people have no idea what's really going on, especially if these infrequent GP Top 8s are used to paint that picture. They get to point to these results and say "See? The format is great!", dust their hands, and then ignore the format another 4 months.
What other options are there are than safe bets and gotcha decks? That seems to cover pretty much everything.
I disliked Twin as a deck, even though some of my most fun games involved me playing against it. The fact that you always had to be wary of the combo from turn 3 onwards, even if they only have one card in hand or even zero cards in hand and just a piece on the board was annoying and warped the format, since back then it didn't have as many tools as we have now to deal with creatures.
In all honest, I don't care about Twin being on the banned list. I didn't care when it was put on, I don't care that it's on, and I probably won't care when it comes off; I play the cards they give me, more or less.
I think Twin is a low risk unban target - compared to, say, Pod, or Grave Troll, or even Gitaxian Probe.
I do wish we could have meaningful discussions about the format without it immediately going to "unban Twin", though.
There aren't that many options
Sfm, bbe, sfm, jace and twin
We've talked about all of them, it's just a circle
Preordain was a good target until shadow and storm, it's unsafe now
BBE and Twin are the only safe options (in my opinion), or rather are the only options that WotC can safely take while maintaining due diligence to their shareholders.
Twin and BBE were both in Modern, and they can point at those two and go "These cards were only slightly too good back then, and we have even more tools to deal with them now than we did when they were banned, so we feel that these are safe to unban."
Stoneforge Mystic would probably be fine, but since it's never been in the format, there is the possibility it would be too good or oppressive and as such unbanning it is a risk.
Jace is much the same as SFM, but with the added issue that if he was unbanned the secondary market would cause his price to skyrocket, and WotC wants to avoid any possibility at all that they unban Jace, he jumps to $200 a pop, a bunch of players buy into him, and then they have to ban him again, causing a lot of players who just lost value to be inclined to quit Magic, etc.
Just my opinion on what's safe and what's not.
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Well, I can saw a woman in two, but you won't wanna look in the box when I'm through.
Played a 63 person event today with $1,000 top 8 payout. 2 grixis Ds decks and about 25 drazi tron decks (no joke). Burn beat affinity in the finals. Top 8 was burn, affinity, fish, lantern, 2 dtron, knightfall, and grixis ttb/gorys. I'd say that's a good mix.
BBE and Twin are the only safe options (in my opinion), or rather are the only options that WotC can safely take while maintaining due diligence to their shareholders.
Twin and BBE were both in Modern, and they can point at those two and go "These cards were only slightly too good back then, and we have even more tools to deal with them now than we did when they were banned, so we feel that these are safe to unban."
Stoneforge Mystic would probably be fine, but since it's never been in the format, there is the possibility it would be too good or oppressive and as such unbanning it is a risk.
Jace is much the same as SFM, but with the added issue that if he was unbanned the secondary market would cause his price to skyrocket, and WotC wants to avoid any possibility at all that they unban Jace, he jumps to $200 a pop, a bunch of players buy into him, and then they have to ban him again, causing a lot of players who just lost value to be inclined to quit Magic, etc.
Just my opinion on what's safe and what's not.
I see it the other way around honestly. Some cards like Bloobraid and Twin have been banned on top of actual results in Modern, so they are "known problems", while Stoneforge and Jace are banned with no results so they should be given a fair chance eventually (just like Valakut, Bitterblossom, Grave-Troll, Ancestral and Sword).
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Modern:WU WU Control | WBG Abzan Company Frontier:UBR Grixis Control | BRG Jund Delirium
BBE and Twin are the only safe options (in my opinion), or rather are the only options that WotC can safely take while maintaining due diligence to their shareholders.
Twin and BBE were both in Modern, and they can point at those two and go "These cards were only slightly too good back then, and we have even more tools to deal with them now than we did when they were banned, so we feel that these are safe to unban."
Stoneforge Mystic would probably be fine, but since it's never been in the format, there is the possibility it would be too good or oppressive and as such unbanning it is a risk.
Jace is much the same as SFM, but with the added issue that if he was unbanned the secondary market would cause his price to skyrocket, and WotC wants to avoid any possibility at all that they unban Jace, he jumps to $200 a pop, a bunch of players buy into him, and then they have to ban him again, causing a lot of players who just lost value to be inclined to quit Magic, etc.
Just my opinion on what's safe and what's not.
I see it the other way around honestly. Some cards like Bloobraid and Twin have been banned on top of actual results in Modern, so they are "known problems", while Stoneforge and Jace are banned with no results so they should be given a fair chance eventually (just like Valakut, Bitterblossom, Grave-Troll, Ancestral and Sword).
BBE was never banned as a known problem. It took the fall for DRS and was not a problem before DRS and DRS was a problem after BBE got banned. On top of that, Collected Company is more powerful than BBE, Jund midrange isn't even tier 2, and the card costs 80 cents. To say BBE is a known problem is a joke.
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Modern
JundBGR
RW Blood MoonRW
Pauper
Delver U
Elves G
Control B
Commander
Edgar Markov BRW
Captain Sisay GW
Niv-Mizzet, Parun UR
Tymna and Ravos WB
I see it the other way around honestly. Some cards like Bloobraid and Twin have been banned on top of actual results in Modern, so they are "known problems", while Stoneforge and Jace are banned with no results so they should be given a fair chance eventually (just like Valakut, Bitterblossom, Grave-Troll, Ancestral and Sword).
BBE was never banned as a known problem. It took the fall for DRS and was not a problem before DRS and DRS was a problem after BBE got banned. On top of that, Collected Company is more powerful than BBE, Jund midrange isn't even tier 2, and the card costs 80 cents. To say BBE is a known problem is a joke.
Oh wow, you missed the whole point. Basically, what I'm saying is that it's more likely that they unban cards that have never seen the light of Modern play (like Valakut, Bitterblossom, Stoneforge and Jace) than they unban cards that have broken their rules for the format (like Bloodbraid, Pod, Twin and Eye). This has nothing to do with whether you think the cards were actually a problem. And no, I'm not joking.
While we are at it, I'll kindly ask you to calm down (since it seems Bloodbraid being mentioned hit a nerve on you). While I agree, the card would be totally fine right now, it's hard to deny it is a "known problem" at least in their eyes (and that's what matters). And yes, Deathrite-powered BGx midrange decks of all kinds dominated the format back in 2013 (29% of GP Top8s, no less). But when Bloodbraid Elf itself was banned (2012) it was Jund (and Jund alone) which had 22% of that year's Top8s. Both cards were problems for them, not only DRS and that's why they were both banned.
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Modern:WU WU Control | WBG Abzan Company Frontier:UBR Grixis Control | BRG Jund Delirium
Lets wait another 3 years for blue mages and better answers...or ban cavern to help now. Lets wait another 1 year with the problem of fast mana like temple....or solve the problem. If i made mistake, i try never making again. If wizard make mistakes, all of you say: its ok, lets play the mistake several years and wrote 4689 times in our chat it was a big mistake
Again, just going to echo what others have said. This format really does not seem like it provides what you are looking for; its power level is just going to be too high for what you are interested in.
Magic has different levels of mistakes. There are legitimate mistakes that should be banned and probably shouldn't have been legal in the first place. These are the kinds of mistakes that Wizards, and players, agree with you on: get rid of them ASAP. Examples in Modern included Eye after the Eldrazi and TC/DTT. We know these are the bad kinds of mistakes because the metagame becomes horrendously warped around them. They aren't bad mistakes because of some rhetorical reason (e.g. "ZOMG draw three for one? Broken!"). They are bad mistakes because they ruin the metagame and that plays out in the hard statistics (e.g. Eye Eldrazi being 30%+ of Modern, TC decks being 20%+ of Modern).
Then there are "mistakes" in the sense that the cards are powerful and above the curve for most Standard formats. Delver, Company, and Snapcaster were examples of this, as were Thoughtseize and Bitterblossom. Or they aren't tested in non-Standard formats and end up being really, really good outside of Standard. See Tasigur, Eidolon, infect critters, etc. Or they had some hidden synergy with older cards that Wizards didn't notice: cascade and Living End, Ad Nauseam and Angel's Grace, Elctromancer and rituals, etc. Those are "mistakes" only in the sense that Wizards did not intend them to be Modern players and they made Modern homes on their own power. We know these "mistakes" aren't problematic because they fold right into the metagame without warping the format.
All those "mistake" (Goyf, Lily, TS, Snap, Ravager, Scapeshift, etc.) cards are what eternal/non-rotating formats are about. Cards are more powerful, strategies are less fair (even the fair ones), and all the top-tier cards represent stuff that is probably not okay in Standard. If you think those kinds of "mistakes" are genuine mistakes in the Eye/TC/DTT category, then again, this isn't the format for you. Players come to Modern for those mistakes, and those cards are why the format is so popular.
As I said before, your opinion is shared by an extreme minority. I've heard it from maybe 2-3 people in all my time on MTGS and even less than that in my paper circles. It's a thankful minority that does not influence Wizards policy and would have a horrible impact on the format if more shared it.
I see it the other way around honestly. Some cards like Bloobraid and Twin have been banned on top of actual results in Modern, so they are "known problems", while Stoneforge and Jace are banned with no results so they should be given a fair chance eventually (just like Valakut, Bitterblossom, Grave-Troll, Ancestral and Sword).
BBE was never banned as a known problem. It took the fall for DRS and was not a problem before DRS and DRS was a problem after BBE got banned. On top of that, Collected Company is more powerful than BBE, Jund midrange isn't even tier 2, and the card costs 80 cents. To say BBE is a known problem is a joke.
Oh wow, you missed the whole point. Basically, what I'm saying is that it's more likely that they unban cards that have never seen the light of Modern play (like Valakut, Bitterblossom, Stoneforge and Jace) than they unban cards that have broken their rules for the format (like Bloodbraid, Pod, Twin and Eye). This has nothing to do with whether you think the cards were actually a problem. And no, I'm not joking.
While we are at it, I'll kindly ask you to calm down (since it seems Bloodbraid being mentioned hit a nerve on you). While I agree, the card would be totally fine right now, it's hard to deny it is a "known problem" at least in their eyes (and that's what matters). And yes, Deathrite-powered BGx midrange decks of all kinds dominated the format back in 2013 (29% of GP Top8s, no less). But when Bloodbraid Elf itself was banned (2012) it was Jund (and Jund alone) which had 22% of that year's Top8s. Both cards were problems for them, not only DRS and that's why they were both banned.
I'm calm man. I was just making points for a BBE unban because IMHO that would be the safest unban.
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Modern
JundBGR
RW Blood MoonRW
Pauper
Delver U
Elves G
Control B
Commander
Edgar Markov BRW
Captain Sisay GW
Niv-Mizzet, Parun UR
Tymna and Ravos WB
It certainly would be one of the safest unbans IMO as well, but is it the most likely to happen? Again, the way I see it is that they default to unban cards that have never been Modern legal (like Valakut, Bitterblossom, Grave-Troll, Ancestral and Sword) rather than unban cards that have been legal and proved to be a problem (like Nacatl), regardless of whether we actually agree with their criteria. It's more like "this could go wrong" or "this already went wrong" kind of situation. Of course, this doesn't mean stuff like Dread Return or Hypergenesis is safer than Bloodbraid or Preordain, that'd be silly.
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Modern:WU WU Control | WBG Abzan Company Frontier:UBR Grixis Control | BRG Jund Delirium
Lets wait another 3 years for blue mages and better answers...or ban cavern to help now. Lets wait another 1 year with the problem of fast mana like temple....or solve the problem. If i made mistake, i try never making again. If wizard make mistakes, all of you say: its ok, lets play the mistake several years and wrote 4689 times in our chat it was a big mistake
Again, just going to echo what others have said. This format really does not seem like it provides what you are looking for; its power level is just going to be too high for what you are interested in.
Magic has different levels of mistakes. There are legitimate mistakes that should be banned and probably shouldn't have been legal in the first place. These are the kinds of mistakes that Wizards, and players, agree with you on: get rid of them ASAP. Examples in Modern included Eye after the Eldrazi and TC/DTT. We know these are the bad kinds of mistakes because the metagame becomes horrendously warped around them. They aren't bad mistakes because of some rhetorical reason (e.g. "ZOMG draw three for one? Broken!"). They are bad mistakes because they ruin the metagame and that plays out in the hard statistics (e.g. Eye Eldrazi being 30%+ of Modern, TC decks being 20%+ of Modern).
Then there are "mistakes" in the sense that the cards are powerful and above the curve for most Standard formats. Delver, Company, and Snapcaster were examples of this, as were Thoughtseize and Bitterblossom. Or they aren't tested in non-Standard formats and end up being really, really good outside of Standard. See Tasigur, Eidolon, infect critters, etc. Or they had some hidden synergy with older cards that Wizards didn't notice: cascade and Living End, Ad Nauseam and Angel's Grace, Elctromancer and rituals, etc. Those are "mistakes" only in the sense that Wizards did not intend them to be Modern players and they made Modern homes on their own power. We know these "mistakes" aren't problematic because they fold right into the metagame without warping the format.
All those "mistake" (Goyf, Lily, TS, Snap, Ravager, Scapeshift, etc.) cards are what eternal/non-rotating formats are about. Cards are more powerful, strategies are less fair (even the fair ones), and all the top-tier cards represent stuff that is probably not okay in Standard. If you think those kinds of "mistakes" are genuine mistakes in the Eye/TC/DTT category, then again, this isn't the format for you. Players come to Modern for those mistakes, and those cards are why the format is so popular.
As I said before, your opinion is shared by an extreme minority. I've heard it from maybe 2-3 people in all my time on MTGS and even less than that in my paper circles. It's a thankful minority that does not influence Wizards policy and would have a horrible impact on the format if more shared it.
For the most part I agree with this your statement, but I don't think TC fits into the category that you are placing it. I think if fits into the second in which you place Tas, TS, Delver etc.... If 20% is what you would call format warping in regards to TC then how is TS sitting at 40% not? I think that the issues that TC caused are like most things different for different formats, in Vintage and Legacy the card was busted because U is already so OP'ed in those formats that essentially giving it any new high powered tools is to much stress for the formats to handle. In Modern I think the Issue was vastly different, TC decks in Modern did not get to simply play fantastic U spells like Brainstorm and Ponder and get a Recall every other turn, In Modern I think the issue was much more that TC decks invalidated the established status quo of "fair" decks in the format by making TS/IoK/LotV decks lose a level of their strict dominance over the format, and part of banning out strategies is tied to players level of content with the available strategies such that Banning TC was fine to do in Modern because the format had so developed around TS/IoK/LotV decks that a sudden invalidation of the strategy was not acceptable to the player base and was justifiably banned, in contrast we have TS/IoK decks running at numbers which are similar in terms of presence but benefits from being again the accepted status quo and hence isn't seen as a issue; it is just a newer permutation of the same attrition strategies we have always had in the format. (this is in no way me saying that banning TC was wrong simply that it wasn't fundamentally broken in the way that Eye/Temple Eldrazi was)
Lets wait another 3 years for blue mages and better answers...or ban cavern to help now. Lets wait another 1 year with the problem of fast mana like temple....or solve the problem. If i made mistake, i try never making again. If wizard make mistakes, all of you say: its ok, lets play the mistake several years and wrote 4689 times in our chat it was a big mistake
Again, just going to echo what others have said. This format really does not seem like it provides what you are looking for; its power level is just going to be too high for what you are interested in.
Magic has different levels of mistakes. There are legitimate mistakes that should be banned and probably shouldn't have been legal in the first place. These are the kinds of mistakes that Wizards, and players, agree with you on: get rid of them ASAP. Examples in Modern included Eye after the Eldrazi and TC/DTT. We know these are the bad kinds of mistakes because the metagame becomes horrendously warped around them. They aren't bad mistakes because of some rhetorical reason (e.g. "ZOMG draw three for one? Broken!"). They are bad mistakes because they ruin the metagame and that plays out in the hard statistics (e.g. Eye Eldrazi being 30%+ of Modern, TC decks being 20%+ of Modern).
Then there are "mistakes" in the sense that the cards are powerful and above the curve for most Standard formats. Delver, Company, and Snapcaster were examples of this, as were Thoughtseize and Bitterblossom. Or they aren't tested in non-Standard formats and end up being really, really good outside of Standard. See Tasigur, Eidolon, infect critters, etc. Or they had some hidden synergy with older cards that Wizards didn't notice: cascade and Living End, Ad Nauseam and Angel's Grace, Elctromancer and rituals, etc. Those are "mistakes" only in the sense that Wizards did not intend them to be Modern players and they made Modern homes on their own power. We know these "mistakes" aren't problematic because they fold right into the metagame without warping the format.
All those "mistake" (Goyf, Lily, TS, Snap, Ravager, Scapeshift, etc.) cards are what eternal/non-rotating formats are about. Cards are more powerful, strategies are less fair (even the fair ones), and all the top-tier cards represent stuff that is probably not okay in Standard. If you think those kinds of "mistakes" are genuine mistakes in the Eye/TC/DTT category, then again, this isn't the format for you. Players come to Modern for those mistakes, and those cards are why the format is so popular.
As I said before, your opinion is shared by an extreme minority. I've heard it from maybe 2-3 people in all my time on MTGS and even less than that in my paper circles. It's a thankful minority that does not influence Wizards policy and would have a horrible impact on the format if more shared it.
For the most part I agree with this your statement, but I don't think TC fits into the category that you are placing it. I think if fits into the second in which you place Tas, TS, Delver etc.... If 20% is what you would call format warping in regards to TC then how is TS sitting at 40% not? I think that the issues that TC caused are like most things different for different formats, in Vintage and Legacy the card was busted because U is already so OP'ed in those formats that essentially giving it any new high powered tools is to much stress for the formats to handle. In Modern I think the Issue was vastly different, TC decks in Modern did not get to simply play fantastic U spells like Brainstorm and Ponder and get a Recall every other turn, In Modern I think the issue was much more that TC decks invalidated the established status quo of "fair" decks in the format by making TS/IoK/LotV decks lose a level of their strict dominance over the format, and part of banning out strategies is tied to players level of content with the available strategies such that Banning TC was fine to do in Modern because the format had so developed around TS/IoK/LotV decks that a sudden invalidation of the strategy was not acceptable to the player base and was justifiably banned, in contrast we have TS/IoK decks running at numbers which are similar in terms of presence but benefits from being again the accepted status quo and hence isn't seen as a issue; it is just a newer permutation of the same attrition strategies we have always had in the format. (this is in no way me saying that banning TC was wrong simply that it wasn't fundamentally broken in the way that Eye/Temple Eldrazi was)
Gotta agree with bizzy here. TC banning was based on upsetting the status quo for Jund type decks. Basically it was a public perception (feeling ban) right or wrong.
For me the DTT ban going along with it was jumping the shark.
Thoughtseize, inquisition and fatal push are amongst the most played cards and by definition are format warping. But a card being played at x% shouldn't be banned because of this. Bans should be based on negative impact on the format not how much it's played.
Edit - I will admit that I am for a higher power level modern though.
Lets wait another 3 years for blue mages and better answers...or ban cavern to help now. Lets wait another 1 year with the problem of fast mana like temple....or solve the problem. If i made mistake, i try never making again. If wizard make mistakes, all of you say: its ok, lets play the mistake several years and wrote 4689 times in our chat it was a big mistake
Again, just going to echo what others have said. This format really does not seem like it provides what you are looking for; its power level is just going to be too high for what you are interested in.
Magic has different levels of mistakes. There are legitimate mistakes that should be banned and probably shouldn't have been legal in the first place. These are the kinds of mistakes that Wizards, and players, agree with you on: get rid of them ASAP. Examples in Modern included Eye after the Eldrazi and TC/DTT. We know these are the bad kinds of mistakes because the metagame becomes horrendously warped around them. They aren't bad mistakes because of some rhetorical reason (e.g. "ZOMG draw three for one? Broken!"). They are bad mistakes because they ruin the metagame and that plays out in the hard statistics (e.g. Eye Eldrazi being 30%+ of Modern, TC decks being 20%+ of Modern).
Then there are "mistakes" in the sense that the cards are powerful and above the curve for most Standard formats. Delver, Company, and Snapcaster were examples of this, as were Thoughtseize and Bitterblossom. Or they aren't tested in non-Standard formats and end up being really, really good outside of Standard. See Tasigur, Eidolon, infect critters, etc. Or they had some hidden synergy with older cards that Wizards didn't notice: cascade and Living End, Ad Nauseam and Angel's Grace, Elctromancer and rituals, etc. Those are "mistakes" only in the sense that Wizards did not intend them to be Modern players and they made Modern homes on their own power. We know these "mistakes" aren't problematic because they fold right into the metagame without warping the format.
All those "mistake" (Goyf, Lily, TS, Snap, Ravager, Scapeshift, etc.) cards are what eternal/non-rotating formats are about. Cards are more powerful, strategies are less fair (even the fair ones), and all the top-tier cards represent stuff that is probably not okay in Standard. If you think those kinds of "mistakes" are genuine mistakes in the Eye/TC/DTT category, then again, this isn't the format for you. Players come to Modern for those mistakes, and those cards are why the format is so popular.
As I said before, your opinion is shared by an extreme minority. I've heard it from maybe 2-3 people in all my time on MTGS and even less than that in my paper circles. It's a thankful minority that does not influence Wizards policy and would have a horrible impact on the format if more shared it.
For the most part I agree with this your statement, but I don't think TC fits into the category that you are placing it. I think if fits into the second in which you place Tas, TS, Delver etc.... If 20% is what you would call format warping in regards to TC then how is TS sitting at 40% not? I think that the issues that TC caused are like most things different for different formats, in Vintage and Legacy the card was busted because U is already so OP'ed in those formats that essentially giving it any new high powered tools is to much stress for the formats to handle. In Modern I think the Issue was vastly different, TC decks in Modern did not get to simply play fantastic U spells like Brainstorm and Ponder and get a Recall every other turn, In Modern I think the issue was much more that TC decks invalidated the established status quo of "fair" decks in the format by making TS/IoK/LotV decks lose a level of their strict dominance over the format, and part of banning out strategies is tied to players level of content with the available strategies such that Banning TC was fine to do in Modern because the format had so developed around TS/IoK/LotV decks that a sudden invalidation of the strategy was not acceptable to the player base and was justifiably banned, in contrast we have TS/IoK decks running at numbers which are similar in terms of presence but benefits from being again the accepted status quo and hence isn't seen as a issue; it is just a newer permutation of the same attrition strategies we have always had in the format. (this is in no way me saying that banning TC was wrong simply that it wasn't fundamentally broken in the way that Eye/Temple Eldrazi was)
Because thoughtseize is played in a bunch of different decks while treasure cruise was played in basically only one deck (two if you consider the blue splashed burn), also ur delver cruise was really meta-warping, on top of making BGx decks unplayable it pushed out twin of competition and caused a massive rise in pod decks (also caused by the print of siege rhino). During that time people started packing a lot of fringe cards in their side (choke, darkblast, zealous persecution...) only to deal with the delver deck.
Actually TC was played in UR Delver, Burn and The Jeskai Combo, the point of play "fringe" cards is not really worth pointing out since if a deck radically alters the state of playable decks it is rather reasonable that formerly "fringe" cards would become more playable as the strategy they are designed to hinder wouldn't be "fringe" anymore.
Essentially TS/IoK are similarly played in a bunch of decks that share the same core, with some "fringe" play outside of the core decks. It really boiled down to the radical and sharp alteration of the meta-game, we continue to get very powerful B and BG attrition strategy cards but those again fit in with the status quo and hence are not so noxious to the collective psyche of the player base.
A actual great comparison to make for the point I am trying to make is to look at DS. It has obviously warped the format around its existence and it has generated a lot of "x needs to be banned" type statements similar to TC. The similarity that is most significant IMO is that both UR Delver and DS had once been well understood "bad decks" UR delver was a T2 at best deck for all of modern up until then and DS decks have existed since the birth of the format they had simply always been bad prior to the current situation of Modern. This has generated a very similar reaction of "something is wrong" because of the radical shifts in the meta-game that the decks existence have caused. The other significant point is the difference, UR delver had a obvious easy to ID quantity that was causing the shift TC, remove TC and revert back to the status quo, DS decks on the other hand do not break the mold so radically it is essentially a deck mostly consisting of the establishment cards, the excepted norm TS/IoK/and to a lesser extent the Lillys of the format. This has cause a split in the player base opinion because unlike UR Delver and TC the guilty party is far less obvious to either party, but you will see players comment that "why can't x be unbanned; it isn't near as broken as DS" or "DS is broken and it is killing Mid-range Jund" all the way to "DS is fine, not broken at all" all of these statements cannot be true but I think that the slight majority probably goes in favor of "its very good but not broken" and I think this is because fundamentally DS decks operate within the establishment, with in the status quo and because it operates in a very familiar way to the established paradigm it isn't rejected by the mass subjective opinion of the player base. UR TC Delver invalidated a large portion of the player bases 1k+ deck investments and DS has not.
I can only contribute anecdotal evidence to bizzycola's point, but I certainly recall at least one player in my local community ragequitting an entire event because his foiled out Abzan list lost to a $150 budget UR Delver deck with Treasure Cruise.
I don't think the Treasure Cruise format was honestly that bad, and I think that the argument "well, this card is banned in Legacy so it should be banned in Modern too" ignores the important differences between the formats. I'd be reasonably happy to see Treasure Cruise back, although I'd be somewhat worried about what it'd do in the Grixis Shadow deck.
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Well, I can saw a woman in two, but you won't wanna look in the box when I'm through.
If I recall correctly at least the users here on MTGS were largely divided in how deal with Treasure Cruise. Here and here you can find the Bans and Unbans Polls.
Only 10% for banning DTT, 61% wanting to unban BBE and 43% for banning TC while 40% wanted no bans. It was kind of a either Modern powers up from here with some unbans or come back to more traditional modern forces by a ban situation.
The metagame was definitely not healthy 20% UR Delver, 20% Pod and decks like Merfolk and RG Valakut packing mainboard Chalices Relics to fight Delver.
In hindsight I definitely agree with the TC ban, I wish they would have let us have DTT a little longer (like in legacy). Yes it would have just fitted into Delver but it was arguably stronger on Scapeshift and Twin decks which would have created an interesting dynamic between the 3.
But that ship has sailed as I preeeeeetty sure DTT is gone for good. What I wanted to make clear with this post is just that the playerbase was polarized a lot more during TC era, with lots of players thinking the card was fine (which we tend to blend out nowadays because the card was banned out of every competitive eternal format) while Eldrazi Winter was a completely different beast where the only question of discussion ended up being what to ban and not if.
IMO it's not really worth it to get deep into this rabbithole of what was more broken and why. All those decks reached bannable levels and all those cards got banned, end of story. I can see where bizzycola is coming from, as much as I can't help to sense some resentment towards BGx. Still, it's one thing to have Lightning Bolt in 40% of decks from Naya Burn to Jeskai Control, which is fine. Thoughtseize has also been fine in Abzan, Jund and other lowered-tiered decks, as well as sideboards of Affinity and Reanimator, to name a few. Other thing would be if Thoughtseize was in 30% of decks while all those are Grixis Shadow, that'd be a problem (with the deck itself, not necessarily with Thoughtseize).
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Modern:WU WU Control | WBG Abzan Company Frontier:UBR Grixis Control | BRG Jund Delirium
IMO it's not really worth it to get deep into this rabbithole of what was more broken and why. All those decks reached bannable levels and all those cards got banned, end of story. I can see where bizzycola is coming from, as much as I can't help to sense some resentment towards BGx. Still, it's one thing to have Lightning Bolt in 40% of decks from Naya Burn to Jeskai Control, which is fine. Thoughtseize has also been fine in Abzan, Jund and other lowered-tiered decks, as well as sideboards of Affinity and Reanimator, to name a few. Other thing would be if Thoughtseize was in 30% of decks while all those are Grixis Shadow, that'd be a problem (with the deck itself, not necessarily with Thoughtseize).
Acc hits the nail on the head. It's fine if a card is in a big percent of different decks. That's actually great because it means the card is enabling many strategies. It's not fine if the card is exclusively played in one deck and that deck occupies a huge share.
Also, cards like Push and TS aren't warping the format. They are defining the format. The big difference is that warping elements force you to make suboptimal choices just to beat a card, or dramatically reduce diversity to decks vs. anti-decks. Defining elements are just known factors you must be aware of and they don't reduce overall diversity. It's not like Push seeing print meant the end of decks playing Pushable creatures. Those decks either adapted to Push and stayed around with some different creatures, or flat out ignored Push and did their thing anyway.
If some salty GBx player with his 1,000 dollar deck was angry about losing to a 150 dollar deck, he or she could have easily gone out and purchased the deck
This opinion of, "people have grown used to discard>LOTV but were upset about TC, therefore we ban TC and not another issue" is ridiculous. Discard is ONE card, TC is draw 3, and with the way delver operates, it'll easily see another TC on average. That's absolutely devastating to any fair deck not playing blue. You can't keep up with it. Little aggro decks can't keep up with that either, you'll have the answer for everything and more.
It can be difficult for Junk/Jund to come back from ONE resolved AV
The only reason POD could even compete was because Rhino broke the deck to give beyond amazing value.
They banned TC and Dig because the format definitely would have destabilized to, "play blue or lose", and I very much believe that. If Treasure cruise were still around, this would be a heavily blue format and non blue decks would be a joke.
I don't care what you guys will say about my next comment, because it's predictable and I already know what you're going to type
but TC was banned in modern, banned in legacy, and restricted in vintage. It's a huge mistake of a card design.
Dig would have ravaged this format, too. I really don't want to imagine what combo decks today would look like with it around. I believe that grinders and pro's would have managed to fit and build their decks around this card, it would have been awful for the format, too.
Dig absolutely destroyed legacy, and I don't want to hear from people, "but thats legacy, doesn't apply to modern". No. It does. The card is THAT high on a power level. Years ago I played a modern deck against a friend playing his standard deck with DIG. The card advantage and ability to dig 7 cards was devastating, I could barely snag wins against a standard deck with my modern deck.
POD, Treasure Cruise, Dig, DRS, GGT and Eye of Ugin have been healthy and fantastic bans for the sake of the formats health. I don't like bans, but sometimes they're very necessary, it's easy to overlook cards considering how many years the game's been around.
I can't believe people are even comparing thoughtseize and TC, those two cards are not even on the same power level. Thoughtseize is a safety valve, treasure cruise is an enabler of every broken things imaginable.
Treasure cruise wasn't powering up modern, it was breaking every format.
I agree, 100%, and if you remember I'm on the 'it was an unjust ban' train from day 1. That doesnt change the fact that I doubt it will come back.
Spirits
I think we see a BBE or SFM unban first.
Really curious to see how much Grixis Shadow does by early August, I think we'll have a better idea where WOTC will go, it's fairly difficult to predict right now
It's almost like Wizards does this on purpose.... All the big Modern events are jammed into a single weekend, several months apart, and in-between set releases. It allows them a never-ending fountain of excuses not to unban things. Between the "who can guess the meta and bring hate" GP Top 8s and "let's see what the new set brings," I doubt we will actually see any unbans for quite a while, even if a number of cards would likely be totally safe in today's Modern (SFM, BBE, Jace, Twin).
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
Well, they definitely structure the calendar on purpose, but there's no way it has anything to do with the banlist. That's just a wild allegation. There are so many other corporate, logistical, marketing, and other factors that influence these decisions before the Modern banlist of all things. I'd be shocked of R&D even talked with the organized play scheduling team.
There's a reason everyone is arguing with you.
Sometimes bans are necessary, but the nice thing about modern is you can buy a deck and 5 years later still play the same deck. I first got into modern before going off to basic training, and I knew I wouldn't be able to play Magic while I was in basic training and at my first training base. I don't play standard because I don't want to spend a bunch of money on a standard deck, get sent on a deployment, and come back to learn that key cards in my deck rotated out.
The nice thing about modern is you can buy expensive cards and then use them for the rest of your life, and Wizards makes money off of this by selling modern masters boxes which have expensive modern staples.
Why not ban 10 problem cards? Because there aren't 10 problem cards in modern. If Wizards decided to ban death's shadow, Eldrazi temple, Collected Company, Urza's Tower, Tarmogoyf, Bob, Edilon of the great revel, mox opal, snapcaster mage, and grapeshot, then everyone who paid money for those cards and has been using them in decks would be pissed and feel like they got ripped off. Also, if you did that then you might have the issue in standard where they do a bunch of bans and a new deck emerges as a tier 0 deck. Modern is in a good place right now.
What Wizards should do is no bans, and unban Twin and BBE. Twin would stuggle with so much fatal push now. Part of the reason Twin was so good is because DE survived bolt which was the most common removal spell at the time. Also, bolt no longer being the best removal spell would mean Twin wouldn't be as good at stopping the current decks. Eldrazi Tron with cavern of souls, Elves with cavern of souls, Grixis Death's shadow, affinity, Abzan Coco, and dredge would all present challenges to for Twin to control.
BBE being banned now is a joke. Jund midrange isn't even tier 2, BBE took the ban for DRS, the card costs 80 cents, and Collected Company is more powerful.
JundBGR
RW Blood MoonRW
Pauper
Delver U
Elves G
Control B
Commander
Edgar Markov BRW
Captain Sisay GW
Niv-Mizzet, Parun UR
Tymna and Ravos WB
In all honest, I don't care about Twin being on the banned list. I didn't care when it was put on, I don't care that it's on, and I probably won't care when it comes off; I play the cards they give me, more or less.
I think Twin is a low risk unban target - compared to, say, Pod, or Grave Troll, or even Gitaxian Probe.
I do wish we could have meaningful discussions about the format without it immediately going to "unban Twin", though.
I'm guessing it's not directly tied to the ban list, but aligns perfectly with their desire to limit deck information as much as possible. Right now, all we get is a random selection of non-Swiss MTGO events and GPs every 3-4 months. Just the right trickle of info to make us think we have a picture of things while also providing no real concrete picture of the format. Do this long enough, and people just say screw it and play "gotcha" decks that people haven't prepared for or "safe bets" like Death's Shadow or linear.dec. Generate the illusion of format health because most of the time people have no idea what's really going on, especially if these infrequent GP Top 8s are used to paint that picture. They get to point to these results and say "See? The format is great!", dust their hands, and then ignore the format another 4 months.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
What other options are there are than safe bets and gotcha decks? That seems to cover pretty much everything.
There aren't that many options
Sfm, bbe, sfm, jace and twin
We've talked about all of them, it's just a circle
Preordain was a good target until shadow and storm, it's unsafe now
Twin and BBE were both in Modern, and they can point at those two and go "These cards were only slightly too good back then, and we have even more tools to deal with them now than we did when they were banned, so we feel that these are safe to unban."
Stoneforge Mystic would probably be fine, but since it's never been in the format, there is the possibility it would be too good or oppressive and as such unbanning it is a risk.
Jace is much the same as SFM, but with the added issue that if he was unbanned the secondary market would cause his price to skyrocket, and WotC wants to avoid any possibility at all that they unban Jace, he jumps to $200 a pop, a bunch of players buy into him, and then they have to ban him again, causing a lot of players who just lost value to be inclined to quit Magic, etc.
Just my opinion on what's safe and what's not.
Frontier: UBR Grixis Control | BRG Jund Delirium
BBE was never banned as a known problem. It took the fall for DRS and was not a problem before DRS and DRS was a problem after BBE got banned. On top of that, Collected Company is more powerful than BBE, Jund midrange isn't even tier 2, and the card costs 80 cents. To say BBE is a known problem is a joke.
JundBGR
RW Blood MoonRW
Pauper
Delver U
Elves G
Control B
Commander
Edgar Markov BRW
Captain Sisay GW
Niv-Mizzet, Parun UR
Tymna and Ravos WB
While we are at it, I'll kindly ask you to calm down (since it seems Bloodbraid being mentioned hit a nerve on you). While I agree, the card would be totally fine right now, it's hard to deny it is a "known problem" at least in their eyes (and that's what matters). And yes, Deathrite-powered BGx midrange decks of all kinds dominated the format back in 2013 (29% of GP Top8s, no less). But when Bloodbraid Elf itself was banned (2012) it was Jund (and Jund alone) which had 22% of that year's Top8s. Both cards were problems for them, not only DRS and that's why they were both banned.
Frontier: UBR Grixis Control | BRG Jund Delirium
Again, just going to echo what others have said. This format really does not seem like it provides what you are looking for; its power level is just going to be too high for what you are interested in.
Magic has different levels of mistakes. There are legitimate mistakes that should be banned and probably shouldn't have been legal in the first place. These are the kinds of mistakes that Wizards, and players, agree with you on: get rid of them ASAP. Examples in Modern included Eye after the Eldrazi and TC/DTT. We know these are the bad kinds of mistakes because the metagame becomes horrendously warped around them. They aren't bad mistakes because of some rhetorical reason (e.g. "ZOMG draw three for one? Broken!"). They are bad mistakes because they ruin the metagame and that plays out in the hard statistics (e.g. Eye Eldrazi being 30%+ of Modern, TC decks being 20%+ of Modern).
Then there are "mistakes" in the sense that the cards are powerful and above the curve for most Standard formats. Delver, Company, and Snapcaster were examples of this, as were Thoughtseize and Bitterblossom. Or they aren't tested in non-Standard formats and end up being really, really good outside of Standard. See Tasigur, Eidolon, infect critters, etc. Or they had some hidden synergy with older cards that Wizards didn't notice: cascade and Living End, Ad Nauseam and Angel's Grace, Elctromancer and rituals, etc. Those are "mistakes" only in the sense that Wizards did not intend them to be Modern players and they made Modern homes on their own power. We know these "mistakes" aren't problematic because they fold right into the metagame without warping the format.
All those "mistake" (Goyf, Lily, TS, Snap, Ravager, Scapeshift, etc.) cards are what eternal/non-rotating formats are about. Cards are more powerful, strategies are less fair (even the fair ones), and all the top-tier cards represent stuff that is probably not okay in Standard. If you think those kinds of "mistakes" are genuine mistakes in the Eye/TC/DTT category, then again, this isn't the format for you. Players come to Modern for those mistakes, and those cards are why the format is so popular.
As I said before, your opinion is shared by an extreme minority. I've heard it from maybe 2-3 people in all my time on MTGS and even less than that in my paper circles. It's a thankful minority that does not influence Wizards policy and would have a horrible impact on the format if more shared it.
I'm calm man. I was just making points for a BBE unban because IMHO that would be the safest unban.
JundBGR
RW Blood MoonRW
Pauper
Delver U
Elves G
Control B
Commander
Edgar Markov BRW
Captain Sisay GW
Niv-Mizzet, Parun UR
Tymna and Ravos WB
Frontier: UBR Grixis Control | BRG Jund Delirium
For the most part I agree with this your statement, but I don't think TC fits into the category that you are placing it. I think if fits into the second in which you place Tas, TS, Delver etc.... If 20% is what you would call format warping in regards to TC then how is TS sitting at 40% not? I think that the issues that TC caused are like most things different for different formats, in Vintage and Legacy the card was busted because U is already so OP'ed in those formats that essentially giving it any new high powered tools is to much stress for the formats to handle. In Modern I think the Issue was vastly different, TC decks in Modern did not get to simply play fantastic U spells like Brainstorm and Ponder and get a Recall every other turn, In Modern I think the issue was much more that TC decks invalidated the established status quo of "fair" decks in the format by making TS/IoK/LotV decks lose a level of their strict dominance over the format, and part of banning out strategies is tied to players level of content with the available strategies such that Banning TC was fine to do in Modern because the format had so developed around TS/IoK/LotV decks that a sudden invalidation of the strategy was not acceptable to the player base and was justifiably banned, in contrast we have TS/IoK decks running at numbers which are similar in terms of presence but benefits from being again the accepted status quo and hence isn't seen as a issue; it is just a newer permutation of the same attrition strategies we have always had in the format. (this is in no way me saying that banning TC was wrong simply that it wasn't fundamentally broken in the way that Eye/Temple Eldrazi was)
Gotta agree with bizzy here. TC banning was based on upsetting the status quo for Jund type decks. Basically it was a public perception (feeling ban) right or wrong.
For me the DTT ban going along with it was jumping the shark.
Thoughtseize, inquisition and fatal push are amongst the most played cards and by definition are format warping. But a card being played at x% shouldn't be banned because of this. Bans should be based on negative impact on the format not how much it's played.
Edit - I will admit that I am for a higher power level modern though.
Actually TC was played in UR Delver, Burn and The Jeskai Combo, the point of play "fringe" cards is not really worth pointing out since if a deck radically alters the state of playable decks it is rather reasonable that formerly "fringe" cards would become more playable as the strategy they are designed to hinder wouldn't be "fringe" anymore.
Essentially TS/IoK are similarly played in a bunch of decks that share the same core, with some "fringe" play outside of the core decks. It really boiled down to the radical and sharp alteration of the meta-game, we continue to get very powerful B and BG attrition strategy cards but those again fit in with the status quo and hence are not so noxious to the collective psyche of the player base.
A actual great comparison to make for the point I am trying to make is to look at DS. It has obviously warped the format around its existence and it has generated a lot of "x needs to be banned" type statements similar to TC. The similarity that is most significant IMO is that both UR Delver and DS had once been well understood "bad decks" UR delver was a T2 at best deck for all of modern up until then and DS decks have existed since the birth of the format they had simply always been bad prior to the current situation of Modern. This has generated a very similar reaction of "something is wrong" because of the radical shifts in the meta-game that the decks existence have caused. The other significant point is the difference, UR delver had a obvious easy to ID quantity that was causing the shift TC, remove TC and revert back to the status quo, DS decks on the other hand do not break the mold so radically it is essentially a deck mostly consisting of the establishment cards, the excepted norm TS/IoK/and to a lesser extent the Lillys of the format. This has cause a split in the player base opinion because unlike UR Delver and TC the guilty party is far less obvious to either party, but you will see players comment that "why can't x be unbanned; it isn't near as broken as DS" or "DS is broken and it is killing Mid-range Jund" all the way to "DS is fine, not broken at all" all of these statements cannot be true but I think that the slight majority probably goes in favor of "its very good but not broken" and I think this is because fundamentally DS decks operate within the establishment, with in the status quo and because it operates in a very familiar way to the established paradigm it isn't rejected by the mass subjective opinion of the player base. UR TC Delver invalidated a large portion of the player bases 1k+ deck investments and DS has not.
I don't think the Treasure Cruise format was honestly that bad, and I think that the argument "well, this card is banned in Legacy so it should be banned in Modern too" ignores the important differences between the formats. I'd be reasonably happy to see Treasure Cruise back, although I'd be somewhat worried about what it'd do in the Grixis Shadow deck.
Here and here you can find the Bans and Unbans Polls.
Only 10% for banning DTT, 61% wanting to unban BBE and 43% for banning TC while 40% wanted no bans. It was kind of a either Modern powers up from here with some unbans or come back to more traditional modern forces by a ban situation.
The metagame was definitely not healthy 20% UR Delver, 20% Pod and decks like Merfolk and RG Valakut packing mainboard Chalices Relics to fight Delver.
In hindsight I definitely agree with the TC ban, I wish they would have let us have DTT a little longer (like in legacy). Yes it would have just fitted into Delver but it was arguably stronger on Scapeshift and Twin decks which would have created an interesting dynamic between the 3.
But that ship has sailed as I preeeeeetty sure DTT is gone for good. What I wanted to make clear with this post is just that the playerbase was polarized a lot more during TC era, with lots of players thinking the card was fine (which we tend to blend out nowadays because the card was banned out of every competitive eternal format) while Eldrazi Winter was a completely different beast where the only question of discussion ended up being what to ban and not if.
Frontier: UBR Grixis Control | BRG Jund Delirium
Acc hits the nail on the head. It's fine if a card is in a big percent of different decks. That's actually great because it means the card is enabling many strategies. It's not fine if the card is exclusively played in one deck and that deck occupies a huge share.
Also, cards like Push and TS aren't warping the format. They are defining the format. The big difference is that warping elements force you to make suboptimal choices just to beat a card, or dramatically reduce diversity to decks vs. anti-decks. Defining elements are just known factors you must be aware of and they don't reduce overall diversity. It's not like Push seeing print meant the end of decks playing Pushable creatures. Those decks either adapted to Push and stayed around with some different creatures, or flat out ignored Push and did their thing anyway.
If some salty GBx player with his 1,000 dollar deck was angry about losing to a 150 dollar deck, he or she could have easily gone out and purchased the deck
This opinion of, "people have grown used to discard>LOTV but were upset about TC, therefore we ban TC and not another issue" is ridiculous. Discard is ONE card, TC is draw 3, and with the way delver operates, it'll easily see another TC on average. That's absolutely devastating to any fair deck not playing blue. You can't keep up with it. Little aggro decks can't keep up with that either, you'll have the answer for everything and more.
It can be difficult for Junk/Jund to come back from ONE resolved AV
The only reason POD could even compete was because Rhino broke the deck to give beyond amazing value.
They banned TC and Dig because the format definitely would have destabilized to, "play blue or lose", and I very much believe that. If Treasure cruise were still around, this would be a heavily blue format and non blue decks would be a joke.
I don't care what you guys will say about my next comment, because it's predictable and I already know what you're going to type
but TC was banned in modern, banned in legacy, and restricted in vintage. It's a huge mistake of a card design.
Dig would have ravaged this format, too. I really don't want to imagine what combo decks today would look like with it around. I believe that grinders and pro's would have managed to fit and build their decks around this card, it would have been awful for the format, too.
Dig absolutely destroyed legacy, and I don't want to hear from people, "but thats legacy, doesn't apply to modern". No. It does. The card is THAT high on a power level. Years ago I played a modern deck against a friend playing his standard deck with DIG. The card advantage and ability to dig 7 cards was devastating, I could barely snag wins against a standard deck with my modern deck.
POD, Treasure Cruise, Dig, DRS, GGT and Eye of Ugin have been healthy and fantastic bans for the sake of the formats health. I don't like bans, but sometimes they're very necessary, it's easy to overlook cards considering how many years the game's been around.
I can't believe people are even comparing thoughtseize and TC, those two cards are not even on the same power level. Thoughtseize is a safety valve, treasure cruise is an enabler of every broken things imaginable.
Treasure cruise wasn't powering up modern, it was breaking every format.