That being said, I argue that Jace is not only safe, he's so weak in the current meta, he will do nothing to help blue and set back another year of "can't give blue more tools." Functionally, he's no different than Nahiri, and she is only an alternate win condition for Moon/Chalice/Bridge prison lock decks that don't want to solely rely on Koth. She's been terrible in blue shells since about a month or two after her breakout weekend because tapping out for a 4 mana walker that still takes multiple turns to win just isn't good enough when opponents have Thoughtseizing 4/4s and 1 mana 10/10s. Jace is not what Modern needs, regardless of whether he is "safe" or not.
This is a great point, actually, and one I agree with fully. Even if Jace is "safe" in the current meta, it's only because blue is otherwise very weak right now.
Unbanning a busted card to help a struggling archetype is not a good move.
The problem is that with Jace in the format, as soon as blue does get the tools everyone has been hoping for (be it counterspell, or some other good answer or whatever), blue decks with Jace become oppressive and Jace has to be re-banned, which would be a complete disaster.
As long as we acknowledge that this arguement applies equally to unbanning Twin, I can see the logic. On the other hand, if this is just an argument to make sure there is still space in the format for Twin, we'll have to disagree that Twin deserves the spot over Jace.
Remember: Jace has never had a chance in the format so the results are untested - but we know that Twin was the "best deck" (albeit by a small margine) for a long time.
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Modern Decks
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG
kinda wanna go from Grixis Control to Grixis Shadow, is it a safe choice right now?
I play Grixis Delver right now and i'm testing Grixis Shadow. I will hold on to Delver for now at least until next B&R anouncement. I think Death's Shadow and/or Street Wraith are not as safe as people make them out to be.
I would wait unless you want to win some tournaments right now. Shadow solve all of Grixis problems, including beating Burn,Tron and Valakut.
Watching Affinity or Elves dump their hand is not fun.
Watching Jund of any type discard your action, drop a Goyf/Lily and sit behind an Abrupt Decay is not fun.
Watching Burn go Guide into Guide Bolt into Eidolon is not fun.
Watching an Eldrazi Temple tap for 2 Mana, is not fun.
Oh wait, I should say 'not fun to me'.
Everyone that plays a deck, likes that deck. Its fun TO THEM. Jace is no less fun to lose to than any other deck in Modern, I mean I would play and watch Twin mirrors, FOREVER, but some people hate that. I mean people need to wake up and realize that there is someone (or MANY someone's) who think the EXACT opposite of them in regards to 'fun'.
I'm back playing a deck that has Bolts, Snaps, and Remands. Not because its great, but because its the fun I want.
Meanwhile, some other person gets off on Lantern. Who am I to judge?
The issue is Wotc has seen when certain types of decks are playable, or some what dominate in a format, what they do to attendance and revenue streams.
kinda wanna go from Grixis Control to Grixis Shadow, is it a safe choice right now?
I play Grixis Delver right now and i'm testing Grixis Shadow. I will hold on to Delver for now at least until next B&R anouncement. I think Death's Shadow and/or Street Wraith are not as safe as people make them out to be.
I would wait unless you want to win some tournaments right now. Shadow solve all of Grixis problems, including beating Burn,Tron and Valakut.
I don't have too much of a problem with titanshift/valakut but I might get the stuff anyways since it's barely any cost for me. although on the other hand, I've been doing fine with Grixis Control so I might wait it out
That being said, I argue that Jace is not only safe, he's so weak in the current meta, he will do nothing to help blue and set back another year of "can't give blue more tools." Functionally, he's no different than Nahiri, and she is only an alternate win condition for Moon/Chalice/Bridge prison lock decks that don't want to solely rely on Koth. She's been terrible in blue shells since about a month or two after her breakout weekend because tapping out for a 4 mana walker that still takes multiple turns to win just isn't good enough when opponents have Thoughtseizing 4/4s and 1 mana 10/10s. Jace is not what Modern needs, regardless of whether he is "safe" or not.
This is a great point, actually, and one I agree with fully. Even if Jace is "safe" in the current meta, it's only because blue is otherwise very weak right now.
Unbanning a busted card to help a struggling archetype is not a good move.
The problem is that with Jace in the format, as soon as blue does get the tools everyone has been hoping for (be it counterspell, or some other good answer or whatever), blue decks with Jace become oppressive and Jace has to be re-banned, which would be a complete disaster.
As long as we acknowledge that this arguement applies equally to unbanning Twin, I can see the logic. On the other hand, if this is just an argument to make sure there is still space in the format for Twin, we'll have to disagree that Twin deserves the spot over Jace.
Remember: Jace has never had a chance in the format so the results are untested - but we know that Twin was the "best deck" (albeit by a small margine) for a long time.
Difference being that Twin was never actually busted, and would probably struggle fairly significantly against the current slew of Tier 1 decks that rely on quick clocks and hand disruption. Plus, Twin could be "rebanned" much cleaner and more easily by banning Exarch if it actually DID end up being busted.
As far as making sure there's "still room," it's painfully apparent Twin was NOT keeping blue cards out of the format. Other than a completely meaningless artifact and mostly meaningless delayed card draw, the floodgates were certainly NOT opened in its absence. Wizards has had a lot of opportunities to demonstrate otherwise and they have not, and that's completely disregarding the complete and utter failure of the ban itself, based on it's OWN stated goals. The upcoming B&R announcement will either tell us if they actually give a s**t, or just want to continue giving us blue players the middle finger.
Twin, Jace, Preordain, SFM. Doesn't even matter at this point. But "no changes" is a constant reminder that they simply don't want Snapcaster decks to be good anymore.
kinda wanna go from Grixis Control to Grixis Shadow, is it a safe choice right now?
I play Grixis Delver right now and i'm testing Grixis Shadow. I will hold on to Delver for now at least until next B&R anouncement. I think Death's Shadow and/or Street Wraith are not as safe as people make them out to be.
I would wait unless you want to win some tournaments right now. Shadow solve all of Grixis problems, including beating Burn,Tron and Valakut.
Not sure where this comes from but valakut/burn are not good matchups for grixis ds.
Not sure where this comes from but valakut/burn are not good matchups for grixis ds.
I would say that burn is about 50/50 and that you are heavily favoured against valakut...they can't handle disruption + a fast clock (that doesn't die to bolt/anger)
50/50 is not good. I play rg breach titan and after g1 feel I'm heavily favored. I even won G3 keeping a 5 lander with 2 search for tomorrow. Perhaps people you've tested/played with haven't changed their builds since ds hit the scene?
In short, some people need to stop crying and use that time building a good deck, tuning it for the meta and generally learning to play this game well.
Tuning for FNM brews and a local meta is not a huge problem. But tuning for the Tier 1 decks you will see at the top tables of any large competitive event is exactly why you haven't seen any reliable success in more than a year from Snapcaster decks.
This is not the fault of lazy players incapable of deck building and everything to do with drastic differences in power level and consistency.
Not sure where this comes from but valakut/burn are not good matchups for grixis ds.
I would say that burn is about 50/50 and that you are heavily favoured against valakut...they can't handle disruption + a fast clock (that doesn't die to bolt/anger)
50/50 is not good. I play rg breach titan and after g1 feel I'm heavily favored. I even won G3 keeping a 5 lander with 2 search for tomorrow. Perhaps people you've tested/played with haven't changed their builds since ds hit the scene?
What do you bring in and what's in your MB?
Played breach titan and folded to discard so many times
In regards to bans, people just want what they can't have. I've been learning to just play with the decks in the metagame at the moment and i'm having a ton of fun.
and oh, i don't know, i'd guess valakakut breach was beating traditional jund somewhere between 66 to 75% of the time. it does sometimes lose to jund; thoughtseize and liliana get you there sometimes. doesnt strike me as odd for a death shadow aggro deck to give valakut or tron problems.
That being said, I argue that Jace is not only safe, he's so weak in the current meta, he will do nothing to help blue and set back another year of "can't give blue more tools." Functionally, he's no different than Nahiri, and she is only an alternate win condition for Moon/Chalice/Bridge prison lock decks that don't want to solely rely on Koth. She's been terrible in blue shells since about a month or two after her breakout weekend because tapping out for a 4 mana walker that still takes multiple turns to win just isn't good enough when opponents have Thoughtseizing 4/4s and 1 mana 10/10s. Jace is not what Modern needs, regardless of whether he is "safe" or not.
This is a great point, actually, and one I agree with fully. Even if Jace is "safe" in the current meta, it's only because blue is otherwise very weak right now.
Unbanning a busted card to help a struggling archetype is not a good move.
The problem is that with Jace in the format, as soon as blue does get the tools everyone has been hoping for (be it counterspell, or some other good answer or whatever), blue decks with Jace become oppressive and Jace has to be re-banned, which would be a complete disaster.
I strongly disagree. I don't think Jace would be a problem even if Blue was good. I mean, Black would be super powerful even without Liliana, but almost no one has ever suggested banning her.
You know, it's funny people are so terrified of Jace when the only formats he's ever been shown to be overpowered in are small ones, namely Standard and 4-year Extended, which had substantially smaller card pools and a lower power level.
That being said, I argue that Jace is not only safe, he's so weak in the current meta, he will do nothing to help blue and set back another year of "can't give blue more tools." Functionally, he's no different than Nahiri, and she is only an alternate win condition for Moon/Chalice/Bridge prison lock decks that don't want to solely rely on Koth. She's been terrible in blue shells since about a month or two after her breakout weekend because tapping out for a 4 mana walker that still takes multiple turns to win just isn't good enough when opponents have Thoughtseizing 4/4s and 1 mana 10/10s. Jace is not what Modern needs, regardless of whether he is "safe" or not.
This is a great point, actually, and one I agree with fully. Even if Jace is "safe" in the current meta, it's only because blue is otherwise very weak right now.
Unbanning a busted card to help a struggling archetype is not a good move.
The problem is that with Jace in the format, as soon as blue does get the tools everyone has been hoping for (be it counterspell, or some other good answer or whatever), blue decks with Jace become oppressive and Jace has to be re-banned, which would be a complete disaster.
I strongly disagree. I don't think Jace would be a problem even if Blue was good. I mean, Black would be super powerful even without Liliana, but almost no one has ever suggested banning her.
You know, it's funny people are so terrified of Jace when the only formats he's ever been shown to be overpowered in are small ones, namely Standard and 4-year Extended, which had substantially smaller card pools and a lower power level.
Doesn't sound to me like people are scared of him. More like they're scared of him not being the answer to the issue, having to wait a long time to get said answer, and then him getting rebanned.
As far as my breach list I can post it in the thread that's meant for that.
That being said, I argue that Jace is not only safe, he's so weak in the current meta, he will do nothing to help blue and set back another year of "can't give blue more tools." Functionally, he's no different than Nahiri, and she is only an alternate win condition for Moon/Chalice/Bridge prison lock decks that don't want to solely rely on Koth. She's been terrible in blue shells since about a month or two after her breakout weekend because tapping out for a 4 mana walker that still takes multiple turns to win just isn't good enough when opponents have Thoughtseizing 4/4s and 1 mana 10/10s. Jace is not what Modern needs, regardless of whether he is "safe" or not.
This is a great point, actually, and one I agree with fully. Even if Jace is "safe" in the current meta, it's only because blue is otherwise very weak right now.
Unbanning a busted card to help a struggling archetype is not a good move.
The problem is that with Jace in the format, as soon as blue does get the tools everyone has been hoping for (be it counterspell, or some other good answer or whatever), blue decks with Jace become oppressive and Jace has to be re-banned, which would be a complete disaster.
I strongly disagree. I don't think Jace would be a problem even if Blue was good. I mean, Black would be super powerful even without Liliana, but almost no one has ever suggested banning her.
You know, it's funny people are so terrified of Jace when the only formats he's ever been shown to be overpowered in are small ones, namely Standard and 4-year Extended, which had substantially smaller card pools and a lower power level.
I didn't play Standard with Jace or 4-year Extended with Jace so that has nothing to do with my opinion. My opinion comes solely from having lots of experience playing decks with Jace in Legacy, which is of course a much higher power level format than Modern and yet Jace is still extremely powerful there.
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Current Modern decks BGW Junk / URB Grixis Shadow / RGB Lantern Control / WUBCBant Eldrazi
Current Legacy decks BUG Shardless BUG / UWR Predict Miracles / RUG Canadian Thresh / WRBG 4c Loam UB Reanimator
How is a 13 min turn worse than other decks taking the first 30+ min of a round to win g1? I didn't watch but I'd imagine after the first 5 min the opponent knew they were beat and could have scooped.
No one should have to be forced to scoop because, "it's pretty much over".
Also, Pascal Maynard having Stony Silence dropped on him against Death Shadow was HILARIOUS. Nessel dropping Kataki the turn after was lulzy.
I had a player do that to me as Affinity once, it hurt my feelings so bad I didn't touch the deck again for weeks.
Who said they should be forced to? I said they could. If you don't want to sit through drawn out things and you want to save time you scoop. If lantern has you locked you scoop. Taking turns can take a long time to beat you, granted they are taking more than 1 turn, what's so different?
But doesn't that make your comment about scooping a little bit moot? I think the issue is the deck take too long to find out whether it fizzles or not and you have to sit there and not scoop to do that
No, not like any deck. Ad Nauseam, Oops! All Spells (Legacy), Twin (basically) do not fizzle. The combo is either successful and wins, or unsuccessful and the turn passes, without the need for one player to play solitaire for the other player to see whether or not there's still a game to play. Other decks, like ANT (Legacy), are a bit of a mixture, but generally fall more into the category above.
Eggs and its ilk are frustrating because they take a long time to execute the combo, and you have to sit there and watch to see whether or not they succeed precisely because they can fail on their own. But it's not a very enjoyable experience, at least in my opinion.
And it's very different from a control/prison lock, where you evaluate the game state, assess your chances of winning, and make a decision to concede to try to win the match. By conceding to Eggs on its combo turn, You're not saying 'I will concede because my assessment is that I would lose in 10-15 turns and I want to move on to the next game.' You're saying 'We'll, you're starting to combo so I'll just assume you have it.' Like scooping to a Nahiri -8 without making the opponent show you Emrakuk, or to Twin tapping 2RR without seeing the card Splinter Twin. And that's not very satisfying, so you have to sit and watch -- which is also pretty unsatisfying.
Guys, remember when I said that fatal push may be as good as lightning bolt and some respected people called me out on that statement?
DAAAAAAMNNNNN!!!!!
No, for real, though, I'm really surprised the format has hit a point where bolt isn't the best removal in the game (Still easily the second best removal currently).
Death Shadow is warping the format, but I'm actually really liking it, the tournaments we've been seeing on stream have seriously been awesome, interactive games, along with a fresh and healthy amount of combo/ramp but not disgustingly so. On top of it, Death Shadow is making decks like Grixis and UW more viable since they have a lot of prey. Aggro is still there but it's not 70% of the field anymore.
I don't know man, as long as Shadow doesn't keep winning all these tournaments I'm pretty psyched about Death Shadow being moderns Delver of Secrets (obviously delver is delver in modern, but we're talking about how delver is to legacy to what shadow is to modern).
It's also making Grixis Delver less crappy
Death Shadow jund is only 8% on mtgo according to MTTGOLDFISH, which aren't unhealthy and problematic numbers.
Death's shadow has a 11% (tied with eldrazi aggro) share according to mtgtop8. i'm sure one of the main reasons why it isn't more prevalent is because its shell is one of, if not the most expensive in modern.
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Remember: Jace has never had a chance in the format so the results are untested - but we know that Twin was the "best deck" (albeit by a small margine) for a long time.
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG
I play Grixis Delver right now and i'm testing Grixis Shadow. I will hold on to Delver for now at least until next B&R anouncement. I think Death's Shadow and/or Street Wraith are not as safe as people make them out to be.
I would wait unless you want to win some tournaments right now. Shadow solve all of Grixis problems, including beating Burn,Tron and Valakut.
The issue is Wotc has seen when certain types of decks are playable, or some what dominate in a format, what they do to attendance and revenue streams.
I don't have too much of a problem with titanshift/valakut but I might get the stuff anyways since it's barely any cost for me. although on the other hand, I've been doing fine with Grixis Control so I might wait it out
Difference being that Twin was never actually busted, and would probably struggle fairly significantly against the current slew of Tier 1 decks that rely on quick clocks and hand disruption. Plus, Twin could be "rebanned" much cleaner and more easily by banning Exarch if it actually DID end up being busted.
As far as making sure there's "still room," it's painfully apparent Twin was NOT keeping blue cards out of the format. Other than a completely meaningless artifact and mostly meaningless delayed card draw, the floodgates were certainly NOT opened in its absence. Wizards has had a lot of opportunities to demonstrate otherwise and they have not, and that's completely disregarding the complete and utter failure of the ban itself, based on it's OWN stated goals. The upcoming B&R announcement will either tell us if they actually give a s**t, or just want to continue giving us blue players the middle finger.
Twin, Jace, Preordain, SFM. Doesn't even matter at this point. But "no changes" is a constant reminder that they simply don't want Snapcaster decks to be good anymore.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
Not sure where this comes from but valakut/burn are not good matchups for grixis ds.
50/50 is not good. I play rg breach titan and after g1 feel I'm heavily favored. I even won G3 keeping a 5 lander with 2 search for tomorrow. Perhaps people you've tested/played with haven't changed their builds since ds hit the scene?
Tuning for FNM brews and a local meta is not a huge problem. But tuning for the Tier 1 decks you will see at the top tables of any large competitive event is exactly why you haven't seen any reliable success in more than a year from Snapcaster decks.
This is not the fault of lazy players incapable of deck building and everything to do with drastic differences in power level and consistency.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
What do you bring in and what's in your MB?
Played breach titan and folded to discard so many times
and oh, i don't know, i'd guess valakakut breach was beating traditional jund somewhere between 66 to 75% of the time. it does sometimes lose to jund; thoughtseize and liliana get you there sometimes. doesnt strike me as odd for a death shadow aggro deck to give valakut or tron problems.
You know, it's funny people are so terrified of Jace when the only formats he's ever been shown to be overpowered in are small ones, namely Standard and 4-year Extended, which had substantially smaller card pools and a lower power level.
Doesn't sound to me like people are scared of him. More like they're scared of him not being the answer to the issue, having to wait a long time to get said answer, and then him getting rebanned.
As far as my breach list I can post it in the thread that's meant for that.
RIP eggs (again)
Maynard's maindeck
4 Sanctum of Ugin
4 Darksteel Citadel
4 Mox Opal
2 Inventors' Fair
1 Academy Ruins
1 Aether Hub
1 Forest
4 Krark-Clan Ironworks
2 Engineered Explosives
4 Everflowing Chalice
4 Chromatic Star
4 Terrarion
4 Chromatic Sphere
4 Ancient Stirrings
4 Ichor Wellspring
2 Hangarback Walker
2 Mind Stone
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
| Ad Nauseam
| Infect
Big Johnny.
I didn't play Standard with Jace or 4-year Extended with Jace so that has nothing to do with my opinion. My opinion comes solely from having lots of experience playing decks with Jace in Legacy, which is of course a much higher power level format than Modern and yet Jace is still extremely powerful there.
BGW Junk / URB Grixis Shadow / RGB Lantern Control / WUBCBant Eldrazi
Current Legacy decks
BUG Shardless BUG / UWR Predict Miracles / RUG Canadian Thresh / WRBG 4c Loam
UB Reanimator
Oh, another Mox Opal and Ancient Stirrings deck? Wait they aren't trying to play fair with those cards? You don't say...
Also, Pascal Maynard having Stony Silence dropped on him against Death Shadow was HILARIOUS. Nessel dropping Kataki the turn after was lulzy.
I had a player do that to me as Affinity once, it hurt my feelings so bad I didn't touch the deck again for weeks.
Who said they should be forced to? I said they could. If you don't want to sit through drawn out things and you want to save time you scoop. If lantern has you locked you scoop. Taking turns can take a long time to beat you, granted they are taking more than 1 turn, what's so different?
* Esper Draw-Go
* Tezzeret Whir
* Blue Tron
U Merfolk
UB Tezzerator
UB Mill
No, not like any deck. Ad Nauseam, Oops! All Spells (Legacy), Twin (basically) do not fizzle. The combo is either successful and wins, or unsuccessful and the turn passes, without the need for one player to play solitaire for the other player to see whether or not there's still a game to play. Other decks, like ANT (Legacy), are a bit of a mixture, but generally fall more into the category above.
Eggs and its ilk are frustrating because they take a long time to execute the combo, and you have to sit there and watch to see whether or not they succeed precisely because they can fail on their own. But it's not a very enjoyable experience, at least in my opinion.
And it's very different from a control/prison lock, where you evaluate the game state, assess your chances of winning, and make a decision to concede to try to win the match. By conceding to Eggs on its combo turn, You're not saying 'I will concede because my assessment is that I would lose in 10-15 turns and I want to move on to the next game.' You're saying 'We'll, you're starting to combo so I'll just assume you have it.' Like scooping to a Nahiri -8 without making the opponent show you Emrakuk, or to Twin tapping 2RR without seeing the card Splinter Twin. And that's not very satisfying, so you have to sit and watch -- which is also pretty unsatisfying.
DAAAAAAMNNNNN!!!!!
No, for real, though, I'm really surprised the format has hit a point where bolt isn't the best removal in the game (Still easily the second best removal currently).
Death Shadow is warping the format, but I'm actually really liking it, the tournaments we've been seeing on stream have seriously been awesome, interactive games, along with a fresh and healthy amount of combo/ramp but not disgustingly so. On top of it, Death Shadow is making decks like Grixis and UW more viable since they have a lot of prey. Aggro is still there but it's not 70% of the field anymore.
I don't know man, as long as Shadow doesn't keep winning all these tournaments I'm pretty psyched about Death Shadow being moderns Delver of Secrets (obviously delver is delver in modern, but we're talking about how delver is to legacy to what shadow is to modern).
It's also making Grixis Delver less crappy
Death Shadow jund is only 8% on mtgo according to MTTGOLDFISH, which aren't unhealthy and problematic numbers.