Idk..generally big mana decks stomp all over control decks because they win the inevitability war. I think the ds meta we have now is much better for control than any meta dominated by big mana decks..
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My Decks:
UG Merfolk RG 8-Whack BWG Abzan midrange GRB Living End UWB Spirit Control
GU Kruphix's "Hug Assassin" RW Kalemne's "Play Fatties and Hope for the Best!" BUGW Atraxa's "All counters, all the time"
Exactly what I thought. There is more to bans than just stats. If a deck causes too much bad feels, and is unfun game play, than it will eventually be banned. This explains amulet bloom and storm in modern alot. And I agree with this approach.
A criteria for bans is now officially: tier 1 and unfun
I'm pretty sure that cards from both of those decks were banned for violating the Turn 4 Rule, not due to some completely subjective definition of fun.
there is no denying the fact that it is unfun to lose to a deck that wins that fast and and that consistently though.
Not to mention they just came out and said that if enough people hate something in the top tiers. That is is weighed In Thier ban decision....
big mana meta opens a lot of possibilities for control to shine i guess, i'd rather have this than the ds one we have since the last months
Try piloting a control deck against tron a few times and tell me how that works for you.
The only way control can beat tron consistently is by heavily gearing the deck towards it but you give up massive percentage points against the fast decks. Even if tron was 30% of the meta you'd still be giving up on basically 70% of your matches. It's pretty well known that tron destroys jund and control decks are very similar to jund with a slower clock. In no way does giving tron more time to set up improve the matchup, regardless of what (currently available) answers you try to use.
Tron doesn't do much against Control decks. It did when Emrakul was a thing, because Control couldn't beat Eye -> Emrakul. Right now, with the current configuration, it's a fair match-up (50-50) for any playable Control-like (not Grixis, cause it isn't viable in this form). If we consider straight UW, then, thanks to 4 Spreading Seas and 4 Ghost Quarter/T-Edge it has a favorable match-up against Tron, and those cards have nothing to do with "gearing the deck towards it, but you give up massive percentage point against the fast decks", cause it's the deck's engine, and mana denial is a thing against Shadow of the sort.
those cards are exactly gearing towards it...
Try and beat Tron with traditional uwr and grixis Control.. Do you even play control? Doesn't sound like it.
I was talking about in a meta where ds was banned, but those cards are clearly geared toward tron and do absolutely nothing against something like burn or infect (which would be back if ds was banned)
i don't know, i play turns and every tron variant is a good matchup, except maybe mono u tron because it seems i only make misplays against it
also seas against burn and infect are pretty good
Turns is a combo deck.....so yeah it might be a good match up against Tron
Against a fair control deck that is looking to hit land drops and play a reactive spells and tap out for a 6-7 drop on turn 6 or 7 to win; a deck that can get to 7 mana on Turn 3 will and plays 6-8 cost spells every turn from turn 3 forward is always be a tuff match up.
Tron doesn't do much against Control decks. It did when Emrakul was a thing, because Control couldn't beat Eye -> Emrakul. Right now, with the current configuration, it's a fair match-up (50-50) for any playable Control-like (not Grixis, cause it isn't viable in this form). If we consider straight UW, then, thanks to 4 Spreading Seas and 4 Ghost Quarter/T-Edge it has a favorable match-up against Tron, and those cards have nothing to do with "gearing the deck towards it, but you give up massive percentage point against the fast decks", cause it's the deck's engine, and mana denial is a thing against Shadow of the sort.
Those are cards specifically geared towards beating Tron decks, it just happens that sometimes Sea's is okay against Shadow decks.
i don't know, i play turns and every tron variant is a good matchup, except maybe mono u tron because it seems i only make misplays against it
also seas against burn and infect are pretty good
Turns is a combo deck.....so yeah it might be a good match up against Tron
Against a fair control deck that is looking to hit land drops and play a reactive spells and tap out for a 6-7 drop on turn 6 or 7 to win; a deck that can get to 7 mana on Turn 3 will and plays 6-8 cost spells every turn from turn 3 forward is always be a tuff match up.
turns plays as a control deck until turn 6-7 anyway
Those are cards specifically geared towards beating Tron decks, it just happens that sometimes Sea's is okay against Shadow decks.
I think this isn't really an accurate depiction of the UW control deck's evolution. While UW control has always ran a set of GQ/Tec (or mix) for big mana decks like Tron, the spreading seas appearing in many maindecks can be traced to Bant Eldrazi. Bant Eldrazi was a really hard matchup prior to including Spreading Seas because of Cavern of Souls+ TKS takes your verdict. If you study the successful UW control decks and compare them to the meta, I think it should be fairly evident that Spreading Seas came about as an answer to Bant Eldrazi, and has been adopted (widely, but not universally) for it's wide application and minor deckbuilding cost. There are many decks that can be delayed much more effectively with Spreading Seas than a card like Remand. Even burn can be vulnerable to spreading seas.
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Modern Decks
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG
Jesus, Holy Diva, the way you're presenting your arguments, I'm practically reading them in caps-lock.
I'm very tired of banning the best deck int tier 1. There will always be a number 1 deck, at least the number 1 deck is an interactive one that isn't unbeatable.
It's not directly relevant to this thread or format, but it's worth noting that UB Death's Shadow is 7-0 at GP Las Vegas in Legacy. Admittedly, Utter-Leyton had 3 byes, but it's still interesting that Death's Shadow is doing stuff in Legacy too now.
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Well, I can saw a woman in two, but you won't wanna look in the box when I'm through.
Talking about Legacy..
Reid Duke wrote an article on Channel Fireball about control decks in Legacy. I thought he had some interesting points about how hard it is to succeed with a reactive deck:
The first piece of advice I give to anyone struggling with deck selection is to choose something proactive. [...]
When building a control deck, there's a tendency to focus more on answering the opponents' threats. For many, the goal becomes not losing instead of actually winning. I believe that being excessively reactive in this way is an inferior strategy. The problem is that when you allow the game to go on indefinitely, you leave a tremendous amount of room for things to go wrong. [...]Nowhere is this more true than in Legacy, because of the diversity of the metagame and the depth of the card pool. No matter how hard you work, your answer suite won't always be tailored to beating what your opponents throw at you.
It will be interesting to see how topless miracles does this GP, and if it can prove that reactive control can be viable in a non-rotating format without doing something unfair.
Tron doesn't do much against Control decks. It did when Emrakul was a thing, because Control couldn't beat Eye -> Emrakul. Right now, with the current configuration, it's a fair match-up (50-50) for any playable Control-like (not Grixis, cause it isn't viable in this form). If we consider straight UW, then, thanks to 4 Spreading Seas and 4 Ghost Quarter/T-Edge it has a favorable match-up against Tron, and those cards have nothing to do with "gearing the deck towards it, but you give up massive percentage point against the fast decks", cause it's the deck's engine, and mana denial is a thing against Shadow of the sort.
those cards are exactly gearing towards it...
Try and beat Tron with traditional uwr and grixis Control.. Do you even play control? Doesn't sound like it.
I play Esper control and I'd be fine playing Tron every round. Ceremonious Rejection just cemented that MU quite a bit. (Instant speed mind rot is quite good against a deck that doesn't have many cards in hand generally)
Mind sculptor unban incoming?
Or are they seriously worried about how good the next round of planeswalker are? Or just sweet flavour and the gatewatch getting the beating they deserve?
Mind sculptor unban incoming?
Or are they seriously worried about how good the next round of planeswalker are? Or just sweet flavour and the gatewatch getting the beating they deserve?
Well, Jace must be in HoD. Maybe you have to tap a planeswalker to cast a spell or something. Remove a loyalty counter, perhaps?
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WoTC, thank you for finally announcing the Modern format, an eternal format where everyone can participate.
Since Modern's birth, so... yeah, I know something about Control.
those cards are exactly gearing towards it...
No, they are not. I already explained why, so you should have just read what I previously said. Spreading Seas + G.Quarter is a mana-denial plan, but it's not in the deck because of Tron. Mana denial beats every Shadow variant, keep 3-4 color archetypes out of at least a single colour, fight every single manland and utility land in the game (Academy Ruins, Inkmoth/Blinkmoth Nexus, Colonnade, Tar-Pit, Valakut, Gavony, Cavern of Souls, Eldrazi Temple, and more). It's a crucial part of UW's strategy, which has incidentially some value against Tron.
Try and beat Tron with traditional uwr and grixis Control..
Grixis lose to everything in the metagame, right now. Jeskai and Esper draw-go variants have a 50-50 mu against Tron.
saying tron doesn't do much against control decks is false.
yes mana denial is a part of the plan, but there is no doubt that the reason uw was doing well when alot of eldrazi/tron/valakut was around, was because that's what the deck is built for.
"right now. Jeskai and Esper draw-go variants have a 50-50 mu against Tron."
maybe after sideboard if you run enough hate, but not overall. its called a bad match up for a reason.
and you have GQuarters or SSeas (if you play them) to shut them off.
We wouldn't play those cards if big mana decks weren't a big chunk of the meta.
this doesn't count since you adapt and use X card against X meta decks anyway
Attacking their lands isn't "gearing towards", because G.Quarter/T.Edge are a given in every single Control deck.
They are a given BECAUSE of big mana decks. When bigmana weren't a large share of the meta, control usually played just 1of Ghost Q (usually to deal with manlands) and Seas/Crumble just in the SB.
mana denial is a thing that is used by control strategies because the meta is mana dependant, be it big mana decks or tri color ones so that arg also doesn't count as well
other points you made are correct tho, i just wanted to say something about these two
It might be easy to miss just now much easier the Tron matchup has gotten for UW control over the last year. One change that has not been mentioned is that since linear aggro decks are not as concentrated in the meta, UW control has been allowed to run less cards like Wall of Omens, Kitchen Finks and restoration angel - cards that are bad in the Tron matchup yet were necessary to run MD. Since there is less linear aggro, different answers were able to see maindeck play such as Spreading Seas.
Spreading Seas might be good against Tron, but if you try to characterize them as primarily there for tron, I think you're oversimplifying. There are a ton of lands to target, and it is no small thing that it is cantripping removal against creature lands (which are immune to Supreme Verdict, obv).
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Modern Decks
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG
And Snap-Cryptic is a reality, because most Tron lists don't even play Relic anymore (which was another key card against Control of the sort).
Actually, the trend is to now play 2 Relic main and 2 more in the sideboard. Right now I'm playing 0 main and 3 sideboard, but that's a meta call for me.
Those are cards specifically geared towards beating Tron decks, it just happens that sometimes Sea's is okay against Shadow decks.
I think this isn't really an accurate depiction of the UW control deck's evolution. While UW control has always ran a set of GQ/Tec (or mix) for big mana decks like Tron, the spreading seas appearing in many maindecks can be traced to Bant Eldrazi. Bant Eldrazi was a really hard matchup prior to including Spreading Seas because of Cavern of Souls+ TKS takes your verdict. If you study the successful UW control decks and compare them to the meta, I think it should be fairly evident that Spreading Seas came about as an answer to Bant Eldrazi, and has been adopted (widely, but not universally) for it's wide application and minor deckbuilding cost. There are many decks that can be delayed much more effectively with Spreading Seas than a card like Remand. Even burn can be vulnerable to spreading seas.
So what your saying is that I was absolutely correct and things like GQ/Tec and Sea's are a response to big mana decks. The reality that Bant Eldrazi was the reason to run it then and EldraziTron is the reason now in no way diminishes my statement that they are anti-big mana.
I even said that it can be good against Grixis Shadow etc.. sure spreading sea's can be okay against some random decks but it is in the deck to hit big mana decks.
Keep up with your retoric, man. It's always painful to admit defeat, I know. But it was extremely simple to understand what I meant.
My two cents.
Let's see you put up results with your so called theory then. Since you seem to be talking down on everyone who disagrees with your opinion. Talk is cheap.
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URW PillowFort Stasis (costruction)
modern:
U
pauper:
UB Servitor Control
xenob8 : you know you are going to have a bad time when opponent starts with snow covered island
RG 8-Whack
BWG Abzan midrange
GRB Living End
UWB Spirit Control
GU Kruphix's "Hug Assassin"
RW Kalemne's "Play Fatties and Hope for the Best!"
BUGW Atraxa's "All counters, all the time"
Not to mention they just came out and said that if enough people hate something in the top tiers. That is is weighed In Thier ban decision....
decks playing:
none
Try piloting a control deck against tron a few times and tell me how that works for you.
The only way control can beat tron consistently is by heavily gearing the deck towards it but you give up massive percentage points against the fast decks. Even if tron was 30% of the meta you'd still be giving up on basically 70% of your matches. It's pretty well known that tron destroys jund and control decks are very similar to jund with a slower clock. In no way does giving tron more time to set up improve the matchup, regardless of what (currently available) answers you try to use.
Try and beat Tron with traditional uwr and grixis Control.. Do you even play control? Doesn't sound like it.
decks playing:
none
also seas against burn and infect are pretty good
URW PillowFort Stasis (costruction)
modern:
U
pauper:
UB Servitor Control
xenob8 : you know you are going to have a bad time when opponent starts with snow covered island
Turns is a combo deck.....so yeah it might be a good match up against Tron
Against a fair control deck that is looking to hit land drops and play a reactive spells and tap out for a 6-7 drop on turn 6 or 7 to win; a deck that can get to 7 mana on Turn 3 will and plays 6-8 cost spells every turn from turn 3 forward is always be a tuff match up.
Those are cards specifically geared towards beating Tron decks, it just happens that sometimes Sea's is okay against Shadow decks.
turns plays as a control deck until turn 6-7 anyway
URW PillowFort Stasis (costruction)
modern:
U
pauper:
UB Servitor Control
xenob8 : you know you are going to have a bad time when opponent starts with snow covered island
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG
I'm very tired of banning the best deck int tier 1. There will always be a number 1 deck, at least the number 1 deck is an interactive one that isn't unbeatable.
Reid Duke wrote an article on Channel Fireball about control decks in Legacy. I thought he had some interesting points about how hard it is to succeed with a reactive deck:
It will be interesting to see how topless miracles does this GP, and if it can prove that reactive control can be viable in a non-rotating format without doing something unfair.
Cubetutor Peasant'ish-Funbox
Project: Khans of Tarkir Cube (cubetutor)
I play Esper control and I'd be fine playing Tron every round. Ceremonious Rejection just cemented that MU quite a bit. (Instant speed mind rot is quite good against a deck that doesn't have many cards in hand generally)
http://mythicspoiler.com/hou/cards/jacesdefeat.html
Mind sculptor unban incoming?
Or are they seriously worried about how good the next round of planeswalker are? Or just sweet flavour and the gatewatch getting the beating they deserve?
Well, Jace must be in HoD. Maybe you have to tap a planeswalker to cast a spell or something. Remove a loyalty counter, perhaps?
saying tron doesn't do much against control decks is false.
yes mana denial is a part of the plan, but there is no doubt that the reason uw was doing well when alot of eldrazi/tron/valakut was around, was because that's what the deck is built for.
"right now. Jeskai and Esper draw-go variants have a 50-50 mu against Tron."
maybe after sideboard if you run enough hate, but not overall. its called a bad match up for a reason.
decks playing:
none
We wouldn't play those cards if big mana decks weren't a big chunk of the meta.
this doesn't count since you adapt and use X card against X meta decks anyway
Attacking their lands isn't "gearing towards", because G.Quarter/T.Edge are a given in every single Control deck.
They are a given BECAUSE of big mana decks. When bigmana weren't a large share of the meta, control usually played just 1of Ghost Q (usually to deal with manlands) and Seas/Crumble just in the SB.
mana denial is a thing that is used by control strategies because the meta is mana dependant, be it big mana decks or tri color ones so that arg also doesn't count as well
other points you made are correct tho, i just wanted to say something about these two
URW PillowFort Stasis (costruction)
modern:
U
pauper:
UB Servitor Control
xenob8 : you know you are going to have a bad time when opponent starts with snow covered island
Spreading Seas might be good against Tron, but if you try to characterize them as primarily there for tron, I think you're oversimplifying. There are a ton of lands to target, and it is no small thing that it is cantripping removal against creature lands (which are immune to Supreme Verdict, obv).
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG
Actually, the trend is to now play 2 Relic main and 2 more in the sideboard. Right now I'm playing 0 main and 3 sideboard, but that's a meta call for me.
So what your saying is that I was absolutely correct and things like GQ/Tec and Sea's are a response to big mana decks. The reality that Bant Eldrazi was the reason to run it then and EldraziTron is the reason now in no way diminishes my statement that they are anti-big mana.
I even said that it can be good against Grixis Shadow etc.. sure spreading sea's can be okay against some random decks but it is in the deck to hit big mana decks.
Let's see you put up results with your so called theory then. Since you seem to be talking down on everyone who disagrees with your opinion. Talk is cheap.