The problem now is that it looks like Wizards is taking a puff based on their design the past 8 years? Look how much Green is pushed. One has to eventually stop and wonder "Why?"
In the world of bad guys, I can confidently say after playing this game for 13 years; I would rather have blue as the bad guy, instead of green.
I agree with you that green is pushed, green today is what blue used to be. I don't think Wizards even realized they did it. But, people are over reacting to this card. Yes it's strong against counterspells, but counterspells aren't exactly strong in Modern to begin with. It also dies to every playable removal spell and is a 3 mana card that has little board impact when it comes down.
I guess, my thought before I buy into the idea that this card ruins everything is what even wants to play it?
The problem now is that it looks like Wizards is taking a puff based on their design the past 8 years? Look how much Green is pushed. One has to eventually stop and wonder "Why?"
In the world of bad guys, I can confidently say after playing this game for 13 years; I would rather have blue as the bad guy, instead of green.
I agree with you that green is pushed, green today is what blue used to be. I don't think Wizards even realized they did it. But, people are over reacting to this card. Yes it's strong against counterspells, but counterspells aren't exactly strong in Modern to begin with. It also dies to every playable removal spell and is a 3 mana card that has little board impact when it comes down.
I guess, my thought before I buy into the idea that this card ruins everything is what even wants to play it?
For me (and I think for many others), it's not really a matter of "Oh noes now we can't counterspell!" It's more the idea that WotC looked at the state of Magic and said, "Do you know what this game needs? Something that makes Revolutionary Rebuff even worse." It's kind of like Apocalypse Chime, a.k.a. the original Spellbomb: "Hose that which never needed hosing."
That said I don't think it's fair to judge the intent until we've seen at least the full spoilers for Amonkhet (especially a possible Miscalculation reprint), and possibly also Hour of Devastation. As much as I know waiting is hard.
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Playing UX Mana Denial until Modern gets the answers it needs.
WUBRG Humans BRW Mardu Pyromancer UW UW "Control" UR Blue Moon
The power creep has been impacting the different slices of the color pie so distinctively that it has become depressing. A friend of mine said that since Legacy is Blue all over the place it's only fair that Blue isn't playable on Modern... I wonder if secretly this was their plan all along =(.
It wasn't so long ago that Blue got Spell Queller, which even works against this card. Spell Queller was a pretty good addition to UW. I agree that green gets more but they haven't completely forgotten blue. They've just forgotten about blue instants and sorceries. Which is why the last good blue card was Torrential Gearhulk, and Jace Vryn's Prodigy before that.
The power creep has been impacting the different slices of the color pie so distinctively that it has become depressing. A friend of mine said that since Legacy is Blue all over the place it's only fair that Blue isn't playable on Modern... I wonder if secretly this was their plan all along =(.
It wasn't so long ago that Blue got Spell Queller, which even works against this card. Spell Queller was a pretty good addition to UW. I agree that green gets more but they haven't completely forgotten blue. They've just forgotten about blue instants and sorceries. Which is why the last good blue card was Torrential Gearhulk, and Jace Vryn's Prodigy before that.
And Dig and Cruise before that, and we know how that went.
Seems less like they've forgotten, and more like they're marinating in a stew of fear based on their own mistakes.
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Playing UX Mana Denial until Modern gets the answers it needs.
WUBRG Humans BRW Mardu Pyromancer UW UW "Control" UR Blue Moon
maybe they could reprint the onslaught cycle lands, that would be a better adition to modern than these dual lands
Are those ruled out by the crunch yet?
I was really hoping for them for GWx loam Could pretty easily be a KOTR deck in tier 1 which I think would be a great thing for the format overall. Sadly another grave hateable deck, but at least in colors that're pretty able to deal with most forms of hate.
First two Fact or Fictions of GP SA w/LSV and Marshall:
1)Should DS be banned in Modern? Fact. DS just takes diversity away since 3-color control type of decks like Jund,Abzan,Grixis,etc are taking up DS and just improving their decks.
2)Should Jace be unbanned? Sort of Fiction since we all want to play him but if your job depended on that(Imagine you worked at R&D basically), it would be a little too risky.
First two Fact or Fictions of GP SA w/LSV and Marshall:
1)Should DS be banned in Modern? Fact. DS just takes diversity away since 3-color control type of decks like Jund,Abzan,Grixis,etc are taking up DS and just improving their decks.
2)Should Jace be unbanned? Sort of Fiction since we all want to play him but if your job depended on that(Imagine you worked at R&D basically), it would be a little too risky.
You should probably make it clear that those are your opinions, not Chapin's lol.
For the record, a summary of Chapin's responses:
1) Fiction, no way DS should be banned. If the deck becomes oppressive, look at Bauble or Street Wraith as ban targets.
2) Absolute fiction, Jace is way too overpowered. Yes a lot of decks win on turn 3, but decks with Jace will be able to pack enough cheap interaction to handle those decks. Jace would push out midrange decks from the format.
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Current Modern decks BGW Junk / URB Grixis Shadow / RGB Lantern Control / WUBCBant Eldrazi
Current Legacy decks BUG Shardless BUG / UWR Predict Miracles / RUG Canadian Thresh / WRBG 4c Loam UB Reanimator
First two Fact or Fictions of GP SA w/LSV and Marshall:
1)Should DS be banned in Modern? Fact. DS just takes diversity away since 3-color control type of decks like Jund,Abzan,Grixis,etc are taking up DS and just improving their decks.
2)Should Jace be unbanned? Sort of Fiction since we all want to play him but if your job depended on that(Imagine you worked at R&D basically), it would be a little too risky.
You should probably make it clear that those are your opinions, not Chapin's lol.
For the record, a summary of Chapin's responses:
1) Fiction, no way DS should be banned. If the deck becomes oppressive, look at Bauble or Street Wraith as ban targets.
2) Absolute fiction, Jace is way too overpowered. Yes a lot of decks win on turn 3, but decks with Jace will be able to pack enough cheap interaction to handle those decks. Jace would push out midrange decks from the format.
I don't think that was exactly the consensus on JTMS. Pretty much all 4 of them wanted to see the card, none of them would be willing to take the decision. Some variation on the degree of positivness/negativness over it but still, I don't think there were any absolute fictions.
Yeah, everyone who answered about Jace seemed to be saying that they wanted it unbanned, but had little or no commitment to the idea if they had to put their skin on the line (say in a hypothetical where it was their job to make the decision). The impression I got was that the commenters mostly wanted it unbanned, but felt it was higher risk than wotc would find acceptable.
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Modern Decks
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG
The problem with Jace is going to be that even if he doesn't take over the format (which is a big if), the way that he wins generates a very strong negative reaction. Getting fate locked out of the game feels far worse than just getting attacked for lethal.
Yeah, you wouldn't want to get fatesealed out of a game. Or have a game locked up when its already over.
Pro tip: If you don't like losing slowly to lock pieces, there is nothing stopping you from scooping! If you scoop, it's the same as losing to an infinite combo! If you don't scoop, well whose fault is that?
Saying a card should stay banned because it does stuff that is permitted in the format already is pretty silly.
Your jace fears are built on a house of standard cards. Maybe we should ban reflector mage as well?
That being said, I argue that Jace is not only safe, he's so weak in the current meta, he will do nothing to help blue and set back another year of "can't give blue more tools." Functionally, he's no different than Nahiri, and she is only an alternate win condition for Moon/Chalice/Bridge prison lock decks that don't want to solely rely on Koth. She's been terrible in blue shells since about a month or two after her breakout weekend because tapping out for a 4 mana walker that still takes multiple turns to win just isn't good enough when opponents have Thoughtseizing 4/4s and 1 mana 10/10s. Jace is not what Modern needs, regardless of whether he is "safe" or not.
Cfusionpm your complaint seems to be more about how conservative WoTC is with the banlist ('can't unban other cards if you unban jace'), not with a jace unban in particular. I agree that they would benefit the format by being a more liberal with unbans.
edit: I don't even find those cards to be painful to play against - they are just another strategy from a unique angle - good stuff to me!
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Modern Decks
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG
Cfusionpm your complaint seems to be more about how conservative WoTC is with the banlist ('can't unban other cards if you unban jace'), not with a jace unban in particular. I agree that they would benefit the format by being a more liberal with unbans.
I'd love them to be more liberal with the unbans. Jace is not a liberal unban though. If released alone, it signals: "This should fix blue in modern, here you go!" Which he will not. The only argument I have for keeping him banned is he will do nothing to help the format, so there's no point in wasting an unban for blue (which Wizards is clearly extremely reluctant to do) on a card that does nothing to help the color. If they want to be liberal with unbans, they should unban Jace, along with Stoneforge Mystic, Preordain, Bloodbraid Elf, and Splinter Twin together.
edit: I don't even find those cards to be painful to play against - they are just another strategy from a unique angle - good stuff to me!
That's kind of the point. Depending on what deck you are playing, any of those cards/decks can be absolutely miserable to play against. But it adds to the flavor of the format. We shouldn't ban a deck because it is miserable to play against, and that shouldn't be a reason to keep Jace banned.
Watching Affinity or Elves dump their hand is not fun.
Watching Jund of any type discard your action, drop a Goyf/Lily and sit behind an Abrupt Decay is not fun.
Watching Burn go Guide into Guide Bolt into Eidolon is not fun.
Watching an Eldrazi Temple tap for 2 Mana, is not fun.
Oh wait, I should say 'not fun to me'.
Everyone that plays a deck, likes that deck. Its fun TO THEM. Jace is no less fun to lose to than any other deck in Modern, I mean I would play and watch Twin mirrors, FOREVER, but some people hate that. I mean people need to wake up and realize that there is someone (or MANY someone's) who think the EXACT opposite of them in regards to 'fun'.
I'm back playing a deck that has Bolts, Snaps, and Remands. Not because its great, but because its the fun I want.
Meanwhile, some other person gets off on Lantern. Who am I to judge?
That being said, I argue that Jace is not only safe, he's so weak in the current meta, he will do nothing to help blue and set back another year of "can't give blue more tools." Functionally, he's no different than Nahiri, and she is only an alternate win condition for Moon/Chalice/Bridge prison lock decks that don't want to solely rely on Koth. She's been terrible in blue shells since about a month or two after her breakout weekend because tapping out for a 4 mana walker that still takes multiple turns to win just isn't good enough when opponents have Thoughtseizing 4/4s and 1 mana 10/10s. Jace is not what Modern needs, regardless of whether he is "safe" or not.
This is a great point, actually, and one I agree with fully. Even if Jace is "safe" in the current meta, it's only because blue is otherwise very weak right now.
Unbanning a busted card to help a struggling archetype is not a good move.
The problem is that with Jace in the format, as soon as blue does get the tools everyone has been hoping for (be it counterspell, or some other good answer or whatever), blue decks with Jace become oppressive and Jace has to be re-banned, which would be a complete disaster.
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Current Modern decks BGW Junk / URB Grixis Shadow / RGB Lantern Control / WUBCBant Eldrazi
Current Legacy decks BUG Shardless BUG / UWR Predict Miracles / RUG Canadian Thresh / WRBG 4c Loam UB Reanimator
Sure it's strictly better than Revolutionary Rebuff but that card sucks
I agree with you that green is pushed, green today is what blue used to be. I don't think Wizards even realized they did it. But, people are over reacting to this card. Yes it's strong against counterspells, but counterspells aren't exactly strong in Modern to begin with. It also dies to every playable removal spell and is a 3 mana card that has little board impact when it comes down.
I guess, my thought before I buy into the idea that this card ruins everything is what even wants to play it?
For me (and I think for many others), it's not really a matter of "Oh noes now we can't counterspell!" It's more the idea that WotC looked at the state of Magic and said, "Do you know what this game needs? Something that makes Revolutionary Rebuff even worse." It's kind of like Apocalypse Chime, a.k.a. the original Spellbomb: "Hose that which never needed hosing."
That said I don't think it's fair to judge the intent until we've seen at least the full spoilers for Amonkhet (especially a possible Miscalculation reprint), and possibly also Hour of Devastation. As much as I know waiting is hard.
WUBRG Humans
BRW Mardu Pyromancer
UW UW "Control"
UR Blue Moon
It wasn't so long ago that Blue got Spell Queller, which even works against this card. Spell Queller was a pretty good addition to UW. I agree that green gets more but they haven't completely forgotten blue. They've just forgotten about blue instants and sorceries. Which is why the last good blue card was Torrential Gearhulk, and Jace Vryn's Prodigy before that.
And Dig and Cruise before that, and we know how that went.
Seems less like they've forgotten, and more like they're marinating in a stew of fear based on their own mistakes.
WUBRG Humans
BRW Mardu Pyromancer
UW UW "Control"
UR Blue Moon
CIP tapped, both basic types, cycle for 2. Thoughts?
WUBRG Humans
BRW Mardu Pyromancer
UW UW "Control"
UR Blue Moon
Modern is too fast for CIPT lands.
Agreed, some deck will use one or two but that's it. Kinda like rg breach uses cinder and that's the only place you see them.
the R/G one is amazing for TitanShift. It makes them a bit more consistent, for little cost. The Blue ones have niche value with Deprive.
Are those ruled out by the crunch yet?
I was really hoping for them for GWx loam Could pretty easily be a KOTR deck in tier 1 which I think would be a great thing for the format overall. Sadly another grave hateable deck, but at least in colors that're pretty able to deal with most forms of hate.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
1)Should DS be banned in Modern? Fact. DS just takes diversity away since 3-color control type of decks like Jund,Abzan,Grixis,etc are taking up DS and just improving their decks.
2)Should Jace be unbanned? Sort of Fiction since we all want to play him but if your job depended on that(Imagine you worked at R&D basically), it would be a little too risky.
You should probably make it clear that those are your opinions, not Chapin's lol.
For the record, a summary of Chapin's responses:
1) Fiction, no way DS should be banned. If the deck becomes oppressive, look at Bauble or Street Wraith as ban targets.
2) Absolute fiction, Jace is way too overpowered. Yes a lot of decks win on turn 3, but decks with Jace will be able to pack enough cheap interaction to handle those decks. Jace would push out midrange decks from the format.
BGW Junk / URB Grixis Shadow / RGB Lantern Control / WUBCBant Eldrazi
Current Legacy decks
BUG Shardless BUG / UWR Predict Miracles / RUG Canadian Thresh / WRBG 4c Loam
UB Reanimator
UB Faeries (15-6-0)
UWR Control (10-5-1)/Kiki Control/Midrange/Harbinger
UBR Cruel Control (6-4-0)/Grixis Control/Delver/Blue Jund
UWB Control/Mentor
UW Miracles/Control (currently active, 14-2-0)
BW Eldrazi & Taxes
RW Burn (9-1-0)
I do (academic) research on video games and archaeology! You can check out my open access book here: https://www.sidestone.com/books/the-interactive-past
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG
Between my post and yours we got the whole picture i guess.
Pro tip: If you don't like losing slowly to lock pieces, there is nothing stopping you from scooping! If you scoop, it's the same as losing to an infinite combo! If you don't scoop, well whose fault is that?
Saying a card should stay banned because it does stuff that is permitted in the format already is pretty silly.
Your jace fears are built on a house of standard cards. Maybe we should ban reflector mage as well?
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG
That being said, I argue that Jace is not only safe, he's so weak in the current meta, he will do nothing to help blue and set back another year of "can't give blue more tools." Functionally, he's no different than Nahiri, and she is only an alternate win condition for Moon/Chalice/Bridge prison lock decks that don't want to solely rely on Koth. She's been terrible in blue shells since about a month or two after her breakout weekend because tapping out for a 4 mana walker that still takes multiple turns to win just isn't good enough when opponents have Thoughtseizing 4/4s and 1 mana 10/10s. Jace is not what Modern needs, regardless of whether he is "safe" or not.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
edit: I don't even find those cards to be painful to play against - they are just another strategy from a unique angle - good stuff to me!
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG
I'd love them to be more liberal with the unbans. Jace is not a liberal unban though. If released alone, it signals: "This should fix blue in modern, here you go!" Which he will not. The only argument I have for keeping him banned is he will do nothing to help the format, so there's no point in wasting an unban for blue (which Wizards is clearly extremely reluctant to do) on a card that does nothing to help the color. If they want to be liberal with unbans, they should unban Jace, along with Stoneforge Mystic, Preordain, Bloodbraid Elf, and Splinter Twin together.
That's kind of the point. Depending on what deck you are playing, any of those cards/decks can be absolutely miserable to play against. But it adds to the flavor of the format. We shouldn't ban a deck because it is miserable to play against, and that shouldn't be a reason to keep Jace banned.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
Watching Affinity or Elves dump their hand is not fun.
Watching Jund of any type discard your action, drop a Goyf/Lily and sit behind an Abrupt Decay is not fun.
Watching Burn go Guide into Guide Bolt into Eidolon is not fun.
Watching an Eldrazi Temple tap for 2 Mana, is not fun.
Oh wait, I should say 'not fun to me'.
Everyone that plays a deck, likes that deck. Its fun TO THEM. Jace is no less fun to lose to than any other deck in Modern, I mean I would play and watch Twin mirrors, FOREVER, but some people hate that. I mean people need to wake up and realize that there is someone (or MANY someone's) who think the EXACT opposite of them in regards to 'fun'.
I'm back playing a deck that has Bolts, Snaps, and Remands. Not because its great, but because its the fun I want.
Meanwhile, some other person gets off on Lantern. Who am I to judge?
Spirits
This is a great point, actually, and one I agree with fully. Even if Jace is "safe" in the current meta, it's only because blue is otherwise very weak right now.
Unbanning a busted card to help a struggling archetype is not a good move.
The problem is that with Jace in the format, as soon as blue does get the tools everyone has been hoping for (be it counterspell, or some other good answer or whatever), blue decks with Jace become oppressive and Jace has to be re-banned, which would be a complete disaster.
BGW Junk / URB Grixis Shadow / RGB Lantern Control / WUBCBant Eldrazi
Current Legacy decks
BUG Shardless BUG / UWR Predict Miracles / RUG Canadian Thresh / WRBG 4c Loam
UB Reanimator