We had a good couple of weeks without Twin talk. I'd assumed cfusionpm had gone on holiday or something.
But we're back to beating the old dead horse, trying to get blood from the same old stone.
My only point was that his argument meant nothing in the current metagame. If you like, it's Tabak's law in action.
I don't think anyone's saying that the new iteration of GWx CoCo is safe from bannings because it's an interactive creature-based combo deck. They're saying to the people calling for something to be banned from the one month old deck that it can be interacted with to a large enough degree that we should at least wait until it sees the same success Twin did or if it's a frequent T4 Rule violator before calling for the banhammer. I mentioned this before, but Twin shouldn't even be a factor in this conversation
That's it. Lets at least see how good it is before calling out bans. people are getting really ban happy lately. There are plenty of answers for the deck and Druid has been around a long time. Vizier of Remedies is the problem if there is one.
I think if Wizards did decide to ban something, they would ban Devoted Druid because Vizier is a new card. Remember, Bloodbraid Elf got banned over the "new at the time" Deathrite Shaman even though everyone knew Shaman was the problem.
I know there can be comparisons about creature based combo with Collected Counters and Infect/Twin, but they are seriously different situations. The creatures from Twin had Flash and basically if they resolved, which Wizards has made sure in the past 6 years for creatures to resolve, they tap a permanent. That's too good, especially moreso on the play. Twin could have been a deck that defined Modern, but instead Wizards wanted to open things up for other decks that could not exist in a Twin meta. While I definitely considered quitting Modern at the time of the banning, I can now see the big picture.
The nerfing of Infect in my opinion was worse simply because we couldn't even see what Fatal Push could do. But I have a feeling that Wizards has a personal BEEF with Gitaxian Probe, as it was mentioned recently that Legacy was the only format where it was not banned or limited to 1. Despite the fact that I think Probe was severely underrated by most Magic players, it did not need a ban at the time that it was done in Modern. If Fatal Push didn't keep Infect from being the best deck, then they could have gone for it.
Devoted Druid does nothing the turn it's cast. It sits there as an 0/2 looming and gives your opponent an opportunity to interact before the possibility of Vizier AND Walking Ballista, Rhonas, or Duskwatch Recruiter winning it all. A THREE card combo. If Devoted Druid had Flash and tapped a permanent, then yes, it 100% should be banned. But since it doesn't it shouldn't, even if it enables 2 extra mana the following turn. Sure, it's damn strong if it lives. So are a lot of other things, namely Baral, Chief of Compliance. How many times has a player wanted to kill that immediately?
For what it's worth, these are my personal honest to myself feelings despite these situations.
1. Before Pod got banned, it wasn't ever a deck that caused me much problems. I played Combo and it usually was too quick and tough to disrupt by Pod.
2. Twin being banned took out the number 1 predator for my deck, based on metashare, not win/loss ratio, which was 35/65 for some of my decks.
3. Bloom being banned took out the number 1 predator for my deck, based on win/loss ratio, which was nearly 20/80.
4. Git Probe being banned took out the new number 1 predator for my deck, based on metagame share AND win/loss ratio, outside of somewhat fringe decks.
5. Golgari Grave-Troll was 100% the right ban, even though I had joined the Dredge (Tier 0.5) train.
I was upset by all of these bans except the Troll ban. I would say that Bloom hurt the most because I had only gotten to play it for 2 months total and wanted more.
Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
I'll follow up with my previous post, which was more of a personal sleight against a person, rather than a specific explanation of my viewpoint. So here goes.
I am completely neutral to the point of not caring about the Splinter Twin question. I had no opinion when it was legal, had no opinion when it was banned, have no opinion now, and if they unbanned it tomorrow I would continue to have no opinion. I just play the cards they give me.
I understand that people loved the Twin deck and that they're still upset that it was banned, think it wasn't rightfully banned, whatever. That's cool. But I'm tired of almost every topic in this thread eventually circling back to the Twin banning, comparing new combos to Twin, asking for Twin to be unbanned, or whatever. That ground has been tread. We've walked across it so many times that it's not interesting any more. Talking about Twin here isn't productive any more, it isn't novel, it's just... the same voices saying the same things.
I'm tired of it.
Can we discuss new things instead, examine how the meta is looking now without having to loop back to the Twin argument? Abzan CoCo looks legit at the moment, but it's not yet existed for enough time for anyone to make any claims about whether it's too powerful and needs a ban, and I'm also kind of tired that whenever a new powerful deck pops up the immediate response of Modern players is to suggest it should get banned. No, we need a period of time to evaluate a deck and "one month after the new card was printed" is generally speaking not long enough to make that evaluation.
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Well, I can saw a woman in two, but you won't wanna look in the box when I'm through.
I got a better idea, we unban Jace, Bloodbraid and Stoneforge. so we can police the bull***** decks.
After some test driven by some players of other sites, it seems that Mystic and Jace would help against fair decks and almost do nothing against unfair. No tests of BBE have been done but the card behaves pretty much the same way.
Abzan CoCo looks legit at the moment, but it's not yet existed for enough time for anyone to make any claims about whether it's too powerful and needs a ban, and I'm also kind of tired that whenever a new powerful deck pops up the immediate response of Modern players is to suggest it should get banned. No, we need a period of time to evaluate a deck and "one month after the new card was printed" is generally speaking not long enough to make that evaluation.
When a new deck rises there will always be someone complaining that his beloved pet deck can't win against it and hence pleading for a ban. I'm tired too of this insane ban mania. It prevents decks brewing and innovation.
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Decks played: Modern:
0 Affinity;
URG Delver
URGW Countercats
(Here you can find some video contents about Countercats and Temur Delver decks)
I'll follow up with my previous post, which was more of a personal sleight against a person, rather than a specific explanation of my viewpoint. So here goes.
I am completely neutral to the point of not caring about the Splinter Twin question. I had no opinion when it was legal, had no opinion when it was banned, have no opinion now, and if they unbanned it tomorrow I would continue to have no opinion. I just play the cards they give me.
I understand that people loved the Twin deck and that they're still upset that it was banned, think it wasn't rightfully banned, whatever. That's cool. But I'm tired of almost every topic in this thread eventually circling back to the Twin banning, comparing new combos to Twin, asking for Twin to be unbanned, or whatever. That ground has been tread. We've walked across it so many times that it's not interesting any more. Talking about Twin here isn't productive any more, it isn't novel, it's just... the same voices saying the same things.
I'm tired of it.
Can we discuss new things instead, examine how the meta is looking now without having to loop back to the Twin argument? Abzan CoCo looks legit at the moment, but it's not yet existed for enough time for anyone to make any claims about whether it's too powerful and needs a ban, and I'm also kind of tired that whenever a new powerful deck pops up the immediate response of Modern players is to suggest it should get banned. No, we need a period of time to evaluate a deck and "one month after the new card was printed" is generally speaking not long enough to make that evaluation.
storm is the best deck in modern right now, as long as affinity, eldrazi, and your wondering why blue players are still commenting about twin? maybe its because we need counter spell, a better wincon and preordain/ponder. and we know we are not ever going to get it, so instead we move onto something more possible(but still pretty impossible) a twin unban. Makes perfect sense why things keep going back to this if you ask me. and its never going to stop until wizards does something amazing for blue control/or the meta becomes less hostile towards it.
with that topic aside....
I feel storm and to a lesser extent dredge are way too powerful in this format right now. they may be fine as tier 2-3 options but not tier 1 imo.
both of these decks have been nerfed before in this format for being tier 1 and it clearly has failed.
as for the coco counters deck we should wait a month. But I feel it will probably be fine.
I feel storm and to a lesser extent dredge are way too powerful in this format right now. they may be fine as tier 2-3 options but not tier 1 imo.
both of these decks have been nerfed before in this format for being tier 1 and it clearly has failed.
as for the coco counters deck we should wait a month. But I feel it will probably be fine.
No way. Storm isn't a patch on the DS decks and there are so many ways to stop it it doesn't need a ban. Same for dredge.
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Modern: UR Storm G Stompy URSuicide Bloo
Commander: (Don't play as much as I'd like) UBPhenax, God of Deception
storm is the best deck in modern right now, as long as affinity, eldrazi, and your wondering why blue players are still commenting about twin? maybe its because we need counter spell, a better wincon and preordain/ponder. and we know we are not ever going to get it, so instead we move onto something more possible(but still pretty impossible) a twin unban. Makes perfect sense why things keep going back to this if you ask me. and its never going to stop until wizards does something amazing for blue control/or the meta becomes less hostile towards it.
with that topic aside....
I feel storm and to a lesser extent dredge are way too powerful in this format right now. they may be fine as tier 2-3 options but not tier 1 imo.
both of these decks have been nerfed before in this format for being tier 1 and it clearly has failed.
as for the coco counters deck we should wait a month. But I feel it will probably be fine.
Please don't pretend that you or anyone who is on the "bring back Twin" train represent all blue players. I'm a blue player. I play blue decks. I want more support for blue, but I'm fine with the Twin banning, but even if I wasn't, that's not my point.
Y'all have said everything there is to be said about the topic. Rehashing the arguments does nothing. Literally nothing. You are achieving nothing by coming into this thread and talking about Twin; we have no ability to make WotC change their minds at all. If you want to talk about Splinter Twin, talk to the people at WotC on twitter, because you are doing nothing at all by talking about it here.
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Well, I can saw a woman in two, but you won't wanna look in the box when I'm through.
storm is the best deck in modern right now, as long as affinity, eldrazi, and your wondering why blue players are still commenting about twin? maybe its because we need counter spell, a better wincon and preordain/ponder. and we know we are not ever going to get it, so instead we move onto something more possible(but still pretty impossible) a twin unban. Makes perfect sense why things keep going back to this if you ask me. and its never going to stop until wizards does something amazing for blue control/or the meta becomes less hostile towards it.
with that topic aside....
I feel storm and to a lesser extent dredge are way too powerful in this format right now. they may be fine as tier 2-3 options but not tier 1 imo.
both of these decks have been nerfed before in this format for being tier 1 and it clearly has failed.
as for the coco counters deck we should wait a month. But I feel it will probably be fine.
Please don't pretend that you or anyone who is on the "bring back Twin" train represent all blue players. I'm a blue player. I play blue decks. I want more support for blue, but I'm fine with the Twin banning, but even if I wasn't, that's not my point.
Y'all have said everything there is to be said about the topic. Rehashing the arguments does nothing. Literally nothing. You are achieving nothing by coming into this thread and talking about Twin; we have no ability to make WotC change their minds at all. If you want to talk about Splinter Twin, talk to the people at WotC on twitter, because you are doing nothing at all by talking about it here.
I mean, everything talked about on here at all does nothing really. And I am certainly not one to talk much about twin anymore anyways. I am also not saying all blue players want twin back, but more or less some sort of help coming its way to make it as strong as bg/x. talking about helping blue is gonna happen as long as it needs help is my point.
Storm is fine. It' more interactable than before, and at least you can Bolt/Push/Path their guys, which makes it difficult for them to combo out without.
true, it is easier to interact. but it is still a goldfish deck at top tier. it still poses a flight risk flying so close to the sun as it is now.
also what is your take on dredge being tier 1 even after its nerf?
The last one and a half years people where *****ing around because there was not a single Tier1 or high Tier2 "blue" deck in modern. Now with both, UW Control and Grixis/Esper Shadow hanging around in T1 or at the top of T2 people are still complaining. I just dont get it. What do you want guys? Miracles in modern?
And if that wasn't already enough, each time a new deck (or an old one that got some new cards) puts up some results there's that one guy that wants it getting banned immediately. The banmania that is going on in this thread is just ridicioulus. Ban Company, ban Death's Shadow, ban Bauble, ban Traverse, ban Street Wraith, ban Blood Moon, ban Spirit Guide, ban Vizier/Druid and of course UNBAN Twin, Jace, Mental Misstep and so on...
Really guys give it a rest and let the meta adjust and regulate itself. Nothing is overpowered, nothing is oppressive and nothing needs to be banned or unbanned atm. The format is just great right now.
This is a banlist thread maybe your in the wrong place.
Storm is fine. It' more interactable than before, and at least you can Bolt/Push/Path their guys, which makes it difficult for them to combo out without.
true, it is easier to interact. but it is still a goldfish deck at top tier. it still poses a flight risk flying so close to the sun as it is now.
also what is your take on dredge being tier 1 even after its nerf?
I mean, yes, it's a goldfish deck, but if you do play an interactive deck with hand disruption, counterspells, or other attrition spells you can win vs the Storm deck. Modern is and should be a format with many viable strategies. If one wants to play goldfish one, he should have one at the top tiers to enjoy. So, again having Storm is fine.
About Dredge and about Bant Eldrazi, I never wanted a deck to be annihilated and I am happy that those decks are still tier 1(even if it's EldraTron now). Broken decks should always be nerfed and never be wiped out from the face of the earth, especially if they are decks that can be disrupted by any sort of removal, IMO.
So, I am happy for Dredge and Eldrazi being still Tier 1 decks after their nerf, even if I do not have the best matchups against them as a control player.
they banned twin and pod from the face of the earth? yet they went easy on storm, dredge?
storm is possibly fine as of now because like you said interaction beats it(sometimes) although im sure an eye is being kept on it.
But im not sure dredge should be allowed in the top tiers imo. as it is not possible to interact with and promotes sideboard modern.
So, you want another card from Dredge banned? Dredge is not that fast now and not that consistent. Is it still a Tier 1 deck? Yes, fortunately. This means that people like Lantern(sorry for using your name mate, you are my signature Dredge player!) still get to play a Tier 1 strategy with the deck they like/love. Why take it away from them? Yes, i heavily wanted GGT banned, because the deck was ultra broken. Now it is fine.
About Pod, the past Pod player get to play Abzan Company with the new combo as well now. Is it the same thing? No. But it's a Tier 1 (or soon to be, believe me it's ULTRA STRONG) creature based strategy, just like Pod.
Regarding Twin, it's sad. The only deck they wiped from the face of earth was Splinter Twin. They should ban Exarch, but I think that would limit their design. They may want to print another Deceiver Exarch in the next Standard sets, I suppose in blue colour. And if they do, they should ban it pre-emptively. Anyways, I think that Splinter Twin would be OK to be unbanned now. The meta could handle it just fine. I was a past Twin lover, but whatever. I want to play a Tier 1 Snapcaster Mage deck and I can play Grixis Shadow. I am pretty much satisfied and as Johny_Tempel said, what more do you want? If you want to play a more control deck than this, you can play UW Control.
Nothing is busted, nothing is overpowered. Modern is diverse, great, everything is great.
dredge and storm is busted imo. but at least storm can be interacted with creature hate. but to say nothing is busted in a format with plenty of tier 1 combo, seems wrong to me. after all isnt combo the definition of a broken way of playing the game?
also, uw control is about my only option as of now and its declining currently as the metagame shifts. Death shadow grixis is not for me as I am a control player.
The last one and a half years people where *****ing around because there was not a single Tier1 or high Tier2 "blue" deck in modern. Now with both, UW Control and Grixis/Esper Shadow hanging around in T1 or at the top of T2 people are still complaining. I just dont get it. What do you want guys? Miracles in modern?
And if that wasn't already enough, each time a new deck (or an old one that got some new cards) puts up some results there's that one guy that wants it getting banned immediately. The banmania that is going on in this thread is just ridicioulus. Ban Company, ban Death's Shadow, ban Bauble, ban Traverse, ban Street Wraith, ban Blood Moon, ban Spirit Guide, ban Vizier/Druid and of course UNBAN Twin, Jace, Mental Misstep and so on...
Really guys give it a rest and let the meta adjust and regulate itself. Nothing is overpowered, nothing is oppressive and nothing needs to be banned or unbanned atm. The format is just great right now.
This is a banlist thread maybe your in the wrong place.
I know what this thread is for, thanks.
There are many interesting and well written comments in this thread which i enjoy reading but all those "omg a 4c human list has been winning an IQ or made 2 5-0 leagues online we should ban card xy" talk makes it frustrating to do so. Sometimes you have to skimp through 2 or more pages full of nonsense, people suggesting the same stupid card to get unbanned again and again or talking about which card/deck should get banned this week because they are tired of loosing against it with their pet deck.
Banlist discussion is the reason this thread exists yes, but nevertheless comments should be objective, valid and written as a matter of fact.
"Banlist discussion is the reason this thread exists yes, but nevertheless comments should be objective, valid and written as a matter of fact."
But this will never happen, everyone in here has a bias on what they think the format should be. some think it is fine, and others think it is not and can be improved. and both sides have the right to their opinion. thats why the same arguments never end because each side truly belives that they are 100% right when they are not. thats why being open minded is the best way to be when arguing about opinions/ partial facts.
storm is the best deck in modern right now, as long as affinity, eldrazi, and your wondering why blue players are still commenting about twin? maybe its because we need counter spell, a better wincon and preordain/ponder. and we know we are not ever going to get it, so instead we move onto something more possible(but still pretty impossible) a twin unban. Makes perfect sense why things keep going back to this if you ask me. and its never going to stop until wizards does something amazing for blue control/or the meta becomes less hostile towards it.
with that topic aside....
I feel storm and to a lesser extent dredge are way too powerful in this format right now. they may be fine as tier 2-3 options but not tier 1 imo.
both of these decks have been nerfed before in this format for being tier 1 and it clearly has failed.
as for the coco counters deck we should wait a month. But I feel it will probably be fine.
Please don't pretend that you or anyone who is on the "bring back Twin" train represent all blue players. I'm a blue player. I play blue decks. I want more support for blue, but I'm fine with the Twin banning, but even if I wasn't, that's not my point.
Y'all have said everything there is to be said about the topic. Rehashing the arguments does nothing. Literally nothing. You are achieving nothing by coming into this thread and talking about Twin; we have no ability to make WotC change their minds at all. If you want to talk about Splinter Twin, talk to the people at WotC on twitter, because you are doing nothing at all by talking about it here.
The most ironic thing is that I was actually quite enjoying playing Delver until that was destroyed as well, with the ban of Probe. Now that I'm stuck playing Shadow, which feels even more one-dimensional and boring to play, the semblance of "blue reactive decks" being competitive is basically gone.
I keep on saying this, but it appears to be gaining more traction, so I'll say it again; We really need to have a thread dedicated to twin discussion where people can just copy and paste the same arguments they keep making here, but without hijacking the entire thread. Everything does not in fact relate to twin.
"Oh, a combo deck is doing well? You know what OTHER combo deck did well"
"*x* deck is too strong? You know what would have kept it in check?!?"
"I agree blue should have better cards, now let me explain why unbanning this red card will fix that for the next 30 pages."
"Why should *x* be banned/unbanned when twin was banned/could be unbanned?"
"Why is the meta share for *x* ok when twin's was *cherry-picked stats*"
So the same can be said for having a mainstay tier1 prison deck.
idk about that one. it seems lantern causes more bad feels than uw control from what ive observed over the past year. at least uw control lets you play the game a bit,instead of locking you out of the game entirely.
also their is another variable, and that is blue control being powerful longterm to make up for the loss of twin. which I think wizards owes blue mages at least that, imo
the semblance of "blue reactive decks" being competitive is basically gone.
While blue control is doing alright at the moment, the question is: will this sustain? It is very reasonable to be skeptical of this after what we have seen over the past year and a half after the twin ban.
So the same can be said for having a mainstay tier1 prison deck.
idk about that one. it seems lantern causes more bad feels than uw control from what ive observed over the past year. at least uw control lets you play the game a bit,instead of locking you out of the game entirely.
also their is another variable, and that is blue control being powerful longterm.
but to be fair yes, every archetype being tier 1 in the longterm is the ideal world from a stat based perspective.
In regard to what is fun and what is not that's a matter of personal taste, for example i don't like goodstuff decks even if a lot of players consider it fun.
For every archetype being represented in tier1 that is a completely hypotetical situation, as i can't think of a single format that had all archetype represented in tier1.
I Doubt prison is regarded to as fun by the majority of the player base, as once again , it doesnt let you play the game. still it has a right to exist in the game.
control however has historically been in most formats and has served an important role in policing degenerate things, namely in the form of blue.
Hopefully uw can hold its ground in the months to come.
the semblance of "blue reactive decks" being competitive is basically gone.
While blue control is doing alright at the moment, the question is: will this sustain? It is very reasonable to be skeptical of this after what we have seen over the past year and a half after the twin ban.
Weather it sustains or not isn't the only problem. Control should really be more of the top tier metagame share. Roughly 20%-25% of it in fact, and that shouldn't be in the form of a single control deck (a single deck with more than 10% metagame share over a sustained period is dangerous). The metagame in the top tier should be roughly 20% aggro, 20% 'aggro-control' (midrange and/or tempo), 20% combo, 20% control, and 20% other/flex if you want a healthy metagame, particularly one that can reign in on combo effectively if a combo deck starts getting problematic. The current environment is still pretty far from that.
the semblance of "blue reactive decks" being competitive is basically gone.
While blue control is doing alright at the moment, the question is: will this sustain? It is very reasonable to be skeptical of this after what we have seen over the past year and a half after the twin ban.
Weather it sustains or not isn't the only problem. Control should really be more of the top tier metagame share. Roughly 20%-25% of it in fact, and that shouldn't be in the form of a single control deck (a single deck with more than 10% metagame share over a sustained period is dangerous). The metagame in the top tier should be roughly 20% aggro, 20% 'aggro-control' (midrange and/or tempo), 20% combo, 20% control, and 20% other/flex if you want a healthy metagame, particularly one that can reign in on combo effectively if a combo deck starts getting problematic. The current environment is still pretty far from that.
very true well said. What cards do you think would accomplish this?
Weather it sustains or not isn't the only problem. Control should really be more of the top tier metagame share. Roughly 20%-25% of it in fact, and that shouldn't be in the form of a single control deck (a single deck with more than 10% metagame share over a sustained period is dangerous). The metagame in the top tier should be roughly 20% aggro, 20% 'aggro-control' (midrange and/or tempo), 20% combo, 20% control, and 20% other/flex if you want a healthy metagame, particularly one that can reign in on combo effectively if a combo deck starts getting problematic. The current environment is still pretty far from that.
What??? Why? Where did Wizards say this was a goal of theirs?
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
I think many people here overestimate the importance and accuracy of MTGO data with tournaments being only 5 rounds, not to mention that WotC only publishes a fraction of all data. After this weekend's GPs and Modern Open we will have a much better idea of the meta.
In my opinion especially Storm and UW Control seem to vastly overrepresented on MTGO in comparison to their power level, I can almost guarantee that both of them will not live up to their popularity on MTGO this weekend.
Storm recieved a new card, the playstyle changed to Gifts Ungiven instead of Pyromancer Ascension which made it easier to play, it's also one of the cheapest decks online and people just like its unique playstyle.
UW control is just another FOTM blue control deck that all blue control players tend to flock to when they think that it's their best option. We saw the same thing happening with Grixis control and Jeskai Nahiri, but both of those quickly disappeared once people realized that they weren't actually good just popular. The hype around UW control is especially surpising to me as the deck in this form has existed for years and has recieved almost no new tools.
I almost wrote a full page rant but I'll try to temper it.
Graveyard hate should be a fixture in ALL modern sideboards. The graveyard is a resource to be utilised and is used by storm, dredge, grixis (all forms), death shadow, snapcaster decks, knightfall and an ever increasing number of green creature decks all in the top 2 tiers.
Players need to stop clamouring for bans simply because they don't like a deck or don't want to dedicate sideboard slots against these decks.
As a community we also need to stop whining the instant something is good. Adapt, try new things and enjoy the format. Change is good (and maybe if we're lucky, toys come off the ban list rather than get added ruining people's investments and enjoyment of the game)
I'm very skeptical about the longevity of U/W control.
Its currently been outstripped by U Tron in the current MTGO metagame share 0.93% vs 0.69%. This is patently ridiculous as U-Trons entire percentage is based in 4 good runs by Shoktroopa. So basically one guy is putting up more results with one deck than the sum of players playing UW Control. And there are definitely more of them then there are U Tron players.
Although, I admit my perception may be skewered because I watch every UW Control vs U Tron match that I can and more often than not UW Control does very poorly in it.
Well to be fair I also think that U Tron is underrated, it just has a bad reputation as budget/newbie deck, when in reality it's actually one of the more challenging and hard to master decks.
I'm very skeptical about the longevity of U/W control.
Its currently been outstripped by U Tron in the current MTGO metagame share 0.93% vs 0.69%. This is patently ridiculous as U-Trons entire percentage is based in 4 good runs by Shoktroopa. So basically one guy is putting up more results with one deck than the sum of players playing UW Control. And there are definitely more of them then there are U Tron players.
Although, I admit my perception may be skewered because I watch every UW Control vs U Tron match that I can and more often than not UW Control does very poorly in it.
Well to be fair I also think that U Tron is underrated, it just has a bad reputation as budget/newbie deck, when in reality it's actually one of the more challenging and hard to master decks.
And Shoktroopa is probably the most well known "that deck" name on MTGO. I don't even play online that much, I don't follow any players or watch online streams and even I know shoktroopa is the U-tron guy because he has been doing well consistently forever. Dude is proof that it is way more important to know your deck and the matchups than anything. Or he just plays so much he manages to get some 5-0's even if most of his leagues aren't.
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I think if Wizards did decide to ban something, they would ban Devoted Druid because Vizier is a new card. Remember, Bloodbraid Elf got banned over the "new at the time" Deathrite Shaman even though everyone knew Shaman was the problem.
I know there can be comparisons about creature based combo with Collected Counters and Infect/Twin, but they are seriously different situations. The creatures from Twin had Flash and basically if they resolved, which Wizards has made sure in the past 6 years for creatures to resolve, they tap a permanent. That's too good, especially moreso on the play. Twin could have been a deck that defined Modern, but instead Wizards wanted to open things up for other decks that could not exist in a Twin meta. While I definitely considered quitting Modern at the time of the banning, I can now see the big picture.
The nerfing of Infect in my opinion was worse simply because we couldn't even see what Fatal Push could do. But I have a feeling that Wizards has a personal BEEF with Gitaxian Probe, as it was mentioned recently that Legacy was the only format where it was not banned or limited to 1. Despite the fact that I think Probe was severely underrated by most Magic players, it did not need a ban at the time that it was done in Modern. If Fatal Push didn't keep Infect from being the best deck, then they could have gone for it.
Devoted Druid does nothing the turn it's cast. It sits there as an 0/2 looming and gives your opponent an opportunity to interact before the possibility of Vizier AND Walking Ballista, Rhonas, or Duskwatch Recruiter winning it all. A THREE card combo. If Devoted Druid had Flash and tapped a permanent, then yes, it 100% should be banned. But since it doesn't it shouldn't, even if it enables 2 extra mana the following turn. Sure, it's damn strong if it lives. So are a lot of other things, namely Baral, Chief of Compliance. How many times has a player wanted to kill that immediately?
For what it's worth, these are my personal honest to myself feelings despite these situations.
1. Before Pod got banned, it wasn't ever a deck that caused me much problems. I played Combo and it usually was too quick and tough to disrupt by Pod.
2. Twin being banned took out the number 1 predator for my deck, based on metashare, not win/loss ratio, which was 35/65 for some of my decks.
3. Bloom being banned took out the number 1 predator for my deck, based on win/loss ratio, which was nearly 20/80.
4. Git Probe being banned took out the new number 1 predator for my deck, based on metagame share AND win/loss ratio, outside of somewhat fringe decks.
5. Golgari Grave-Troll was 100% the right ban, even though I had joined the Dredge (Tier 0.5) train.
I was upset by all of these bans except the Troll ban. I would say that Bloom hurt the most because I had only gotten to play it for 2 months total and wanted more.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)I am completely neutral to the point of not caring about the Splinter Twin question. I had no opinion when it was legal, had no opinion when it was banned, have no opinion now, and if they unbanned it tomorrow I would continue to have no opinion. I just play the cards they give me.
I understand that people loved the Twin deck and that they're still upset that it was banned, think it wasn't rightfully banned, whatever. That's cool. But I'm tired of almost every topic in this thread eventually circling back to the Twin banning, comparing new combos to Twin, asking for Twin to be unbanned, or whatever. That ground has been tread. We've walked across it so many times that it's not interesting any more. Talking about Twin here isn't productive any more, it isn't novel, it's just... the same voices saying the same things.
I'm tired of it.
Can we discuss new things instead, examine how the meta is looking now without having to loop back to the Twin argument? Abzan CoCo looks legit at the moment, but it's not yet existed for enough time for anyone to make any claims about whether it's too powerful and needs a ban, and I'm also kind of tired that whenever a new powerful deck pops up the immediate response of Modern players is to suggest it should get banned. No, we need a period of time to evaluate a deck and "one month after the new card was printed" is generally speaking not long enough to make that evaluation.
After some test driven by some players of other sites, it seems that Mystic and Jace would help against fair decks and almost do nothing against unfair. No tests of BBE have been done but the card behaves pretty much the same way.
When a new deck rises there will always be someone complaining that his beloved pet deck can't win against it and hence pleading for a ban. I'm tired too of this insane ban mania. It prevents decks brewing and innovation.
Modern:
storm is the best deck in modern right now, as long as affinity, eldrazi, and your wondering why blue players are still commenting about twin? maybe its because we need counter spell, a better wincon and preordain/ponder. and we know we are not ever going to get it, so instead we move onto something more possible(but still pretty impossible) a twin unban. Makes perfect sense why things keep going back to this if you ask me. and its never going to stop until wizards does something amazing for blue control/or the meta becomes less hostile towards it.
with that topic aside....
I feel storm and to a lesser extent dredge are way too powerful in this format right now. they may be fine as tier 2-3 options but not tier 1 imo.
both of these decks have been nerfed before in this format for being tier 1 and it clearly has failed.
as for the coco counters deck we should wait a month. But I feel it will probably be fine.
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No way. Storm isn't a patch on the DS decks and there are so many ways to stop it it doesn't need a ban. Same for dredge.
UR Storm
G Stompy
URSuicide Bloo
Commander: (Don't play as much as I'd like)
UBPhenax, God of Deception
Please don't pretend that you or anyone who is on the "bring back Twin" train represent all blue players. I'm a blue player. I play blue decks. I want more support for blue, but I'm fine with the Twin banning, but even if I wasn't, that's not my point.
Y'all have said everything there is to be said about the topic. Rehashing the arguments does nothing. Literally nothing. You are achieving nothing by coming into this thread and talking about Twin; we have no ability to make WotC change their minds at all. If you want to talk about Splinter Twin, talk to the people at WotC on twitter, because you are doing nothing at all by talking about it here.
I mean, everything talked about on here at all does nothing really. And I am certainly not one to talk much about twin anymore anyways. I am also not saying all blue players want twin back, but more or less some sort of help coming its way to make it as strong as bg/x. talking about helping blue is gonna happen as long as it needs help is my point.
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true, it is easier to interact. but it is still a goldfish deck at top tier. it still poses a flight risk flying so close to the sun as it is now.
also what is your take on dredge being tier 1 even after its nerf?
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This is a banlist thread maybe your in the wrong place.
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they banned twin and pod from the face of the earth? yet they went easy on storm, dredge?
storm is possibly fine as of now because like you said interaction beats it(sometimes) although im sure an eye is being kept on it.
But im not sure dredge should be allowed in the top tiers imo. as it is not possible to interact with and promotes sideboard modern.
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dredge and storm is busted imo. but at least storm can be interacted with creature hate. but to say nothing is busted in a format with plenty of tier 1 combo, seems wrong to me. after all isnt combo the definition of a broken way of playing the game?
also, uw control is about my only option as of now and its declining currently as the metagame shifts. Death shadow grixis is not for me as I am a control player.
"what more do you want?"
blue control to always have a spot in tier 1.
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"Banlist discussion is the reason this thread exists yes, but nevertheless comments should be objective, valid and written as a matter of fact."
But this will never happen, everyone in here has a bias on what they think the format should be. some think it is fine, and others think it is not and can be improved. and both sides have the right to their opinion. thats why the same arguments never end because each side truly belives that they are 100% right when they are not. thats why being open minded is the best way to be when arguing about opinions/ partial facts.
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The most ironic thing is that I was actually quite enjoying playing Delver until that was destroyed as well, with the ban of Probe. Now that I'm stuck playing Shadow, which feels even more one-dimensional and boring to play, the semblance of "blue reactive decks" being competitive is basically gone.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
"Oh, a combo deck is doing well? You know what OTHER combo deck did well"
"*x* deck is too strong? You know what would have kept it in check?!?"
"I agree blue should have better cards, now let me explain why unbanning this red card will fix that for the next 30 pages."
"Why should *x* be banned/unbanned when twin was banned/could be unbanned?"
"Why is the meta share for *x* ok when twin's was *cherry-picked stats*"
Affinity
Death & Taxes
Mardu Nahiri
Forcing people to merge with twitch is stupid
idk about that one. it seems lantern causes more bad feels than uw control from what ive observed over the past year. at least uw control lets you play the game a bit,instead of locking you out of the game entirely.
also their is another variable, and that is blue control being powerful longterm to make up for the loss of twin. which I think wizards owes blue mages at least that, imo
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While blue control is doing alright at the moment, the question is: will this sustain? It is very reasonable to be skeptical of this after what we have seen over the past year and a half after the twin ban.
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I Doubt prison is regarded to as fun by the majority of the player base, as once again , it doesnt let you play the game. still it has a right to exist in the game.
control however has historically been in most formats and has served an important role in policing degenerate things, namely in the form of blue.
Hopefully uw can hold its ground in the months to come.
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Weather it sustains or not isn't the only problem. Control should really be more of the top tier metagame share. Roughly 20%-25% of it in fact, and that shouldn't be in the form of a single control deck (a single deck with more than 10% metagame share over a sustained period is dangerous). The metagame in the top tier should be roughly 20% aggro, 20% 'aggro-control' (midrange and/or tempo), 20% combo, 20% control, and 20% other/flex if you want a healthy metagame, particularly one that can reign in on combo effectively if a combo deck starts getting problematic. The current environment is still pretty far from that.
very true well said. What cards do you think would accomplish this?
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Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
In my opinion especially Storm and UW Control seem to vastly overrepresented on MTGO in comparison to their power level, I can almost guarantee that both of them will not live up to their popularity on MTGO this weekend.
Storm recieved a new card, the playstyle changed to Gifts Ungiven instead of Pyromancer Ascension which made it easier to play, it's also one of the cheapest decks online and people just like its unique playstyle.
UW control is just another FOTM blue control deck that all blue control players tend to flock to when they think that it's their best option. We saw the same thing happening with Grixis control and Jeskai Nahiri, but both of those quickly disappeared once people realized that they weren't actually good just popular. The hype around UW control is especially surpising to me as the deck in this form has existed for years and has recieved almost no new tools.
Graveyard hate should be a fixture in ALL modern sideboards. The graveyard is a resource to be utilised and is used by storm, dredge, grixis (all forms), death shadow, snapcaster decks, knightfall and an ever increasing number of green creature decks all in the top 2 tiers.
Players need to stop clamouring for bans simply because they don't like a deck or don't want to dedicate sideboard slots against these decks.
As a community we also need to stop whining the instant something is good. Adapt, try new things and enjoy the format. Change is good (and maybe if we're lucky, toys come off the ban list rather than get added ruining people's investments and enjoyment of the game)
Well to be fair I also think that U Tron is underrated, it just has a bad reputation as budget/newbie deck, when in reality it's actually one of the more challenging and hard to master decks.
And Shoktroopa is probably the most well known "that deck" name on MTGO. I don't even play online that much, I don't follow any players or watch online streams and even I know shoktroopa is the U-tron guy because he has been doing well consistently forever. Dude is proof that it is way more important to know your deck and the matchups than anything. Or he just plays so much he manages to get some 5-0's even if most of his leagues aren't.