Let's be honest because whenever a deck wins people always screams for bans.
It just looks like people don't want any deck to win.
I agree with you that you can destroy the combo so there is something very easy to do against it. Problem is that people talk about interacting with there opponent but they don't do it because they want to win fast.
"It just looks like people don't want any deck to win." - Correction - any deck except theirs.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern: UR Storm G Stompy URSuicide Bloo
Commander: (Don't play as much as I'd like) UBPhenax, God of Deception
Maybe you should play a different deck against it? Just because your deck loses against it, it doesn't mean that the deck is broken. Bxx Shadow crushes the new version of Abzan Company.
Maybe you should play a different deck against it? Just because your deck loses against it, it doesn't mean that the deck is broken. Bxx Shadow crushes the new version of Abzan Company.
Death's Shadow absolutely doesnt crush it. It's a swingy matchup; but closer to 50/50 than you'd think.
Source: I've been running abzan a ton through comp leagues on MTGO since the debut of Amonkhet; including multiple 5-0 runs.
Maybe you should play a different deck against it? Just because your deck loses against it, it doesn't mean that the deck is broken. Bxx Shadow crushes the new version of Abzan Company.
I have multiple decks that can deal against it, thank you for the advise but that is not my point.
The only point you've made is that you don't like Abzan Company. Care to articulate for discussion how the deck is destroying the format?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
FREE MODERN. Break the Standard link.
I play Magic: the Gathering, not Magic: the Commandering.
Let's be honest because whenever a deck wins people always screams for bans.
It just looks like people don't want any deck to win.
I agree with you that you can destroy the combo so there is something very easy to do against it. Problem is that people talk about interacting with there opponent but they don't do it because they want to win fast.
"It just looks like people don't want any deck to win." - Correction - any deck except theirs.
Actually I'd rather my deck lose so I don't have to worry about it being banned. It's the world we live in unfortunately.
A lot of decks kill on t3 and a decent number kill on t2. In order for company to do it on t3 you needed to let them play a Devoted Druid and pass with it then play a vizier and resolve a third card. If your deck isn't interacting with any of that by t3 then you would lose to almost any storm, burn, or death shadow deck.
Abzan Coco is pretty favourable against Jund Death's Shadow. That I can surely say.
In fact, about Abzan Coco, the deck has 50/50's everywhere(but not too many 60/40's or 70/30's to receive a banning), but in my books thats a great thing.
Even against Ad nauseam, Storm, or Tron you win with the Turn 3 kill with the new combo if you have it. It also crushes the fair decks with Eternal Witness, Chord Of Calling, Collected Company, Renegade Rallier, Sheenanigans. Too much value into one deck for the fair decks to handle and too much quickness into one deck for the unfair decks to handle. It has the whole package of 50-50's if you are into that.
BUT! Again, it's TOO EASILY disruptable and nearly everything has game against it. This is the reason why ABZAN COCO WILL NEVER RECEIVE A NERF. Please, people, stop it.
Also, it can be hated out. Leyline, Rest In Peace and all of the attrition spells.
Abzan Company is perfectly safe and OK. People need to realize that. Please, stop the banmania.
A resilient combo deck that is easily disrupted and can be hit by targeted hate with mostly 50/50 matchups and runs a solid value beatdown back up plan... Why does this sound so familiar? And why is this one OK?
Twin was able to play a lot more interaction and the abzan decks because of the creature volume required cannot. Makes it less able to protect its combo from hate. it still can of course but not as well.
Abzan Coco is pretty favourable against Jund Death's Shadow. That I can surely say.
In fact, about Abzan Coco, the deck has 50/50's everywhere(but not too many 60/40's or 70/30's to receive a banning), but in my books thats a great thing.
Even against Ad nauseam, Storm, or Tron you win with the Turn 3 kill with the new combo if you have it. It also crushes the fair decks with Eternal Witness, Chord Of Calling, Collected Company, Renegade Rallier, Sheenanigans. Too much value into one deck for the fair decks to handle and too much quickness into one deck for the unfair decks to handle. It has the whole package of 50-50's if you are into that.
BUT! Again, it's TOO EASILY disruptable and nearly everything has game against it. This is the reason why ABZAN COCO WILL NEVER RECEIVE A NERF. Please, people, stop it.
Also, it can be hated out. Leyline, Rest In Peace and all of the attrition spells.
Abzan Company is perfectly safe and OK. People need to realize that. Please, stop the banmania.
A resilient combo deck that is easily disrupted and can be hit by targeted hate with mostly 50/50 matchups and runs a solid value beatdown back up plan... Why does this sound so familiar? And why is this one OK?
It probably sounds familiar as it's the subject you derail every conversation to.
This all seems very familiar to jeskai nahiri or cheeri0s once they got their new printings. People see an exciting new variation to an existing deck that provides redundancy (usually some type of combo), people jam that deck at the next GP or SCG to either catch others off guard or because it's a fun new variation, it does well in said event, people wonder if it is busted or de-facto best deck, then the meta adapts.
Give it time and a few more events before we jump to conclusions on its strength. It's definitely strong, but warping?
Abzan Coco is pretty favourable against Jund Death's Shadow. That I can surely say.
In fact, about Abzan Coco, the deck has 50/50's everywhere(but not too many 60/40's or 70/30's to receive a banning), but in my books thats a great thing.
Even against Ad nauseam, Storm, or Tron you win with the Turn 3 kill with the new combo if you have it. It also crushes the fair decks with Eternal Witness, Chord Of Calling, Collected Company, Renegade Rallier, Sheenanigans. Too much value into one deck for the fair decks to handle and too much quickness into one deck for the unfair decks to handle. It has the whole package of 50-50's if you are into that.
BUT! Again, it's TOO EASILY disruptable and nearly everything has game against it. This is the reason why ABZAN COCO WILL NEVER RECEIVE A NERF. Please, people, stop it.
Also, it can be hated out. Leyline, Rest In Peace and all of the attrition spells.
Abzan Company is perfectly safe and OK. People need to realize that. Please, stop the banmania.
A resilient combo deck that is easily disrupted and can be hit by targeted hate with mostly 50/50 matchups and runs a solid value beatdown back up plan... Why does this sound so familiar? And why is this one OK?
I have nothing against Twin, but in addition to what Pokken said, the fact that the combo pieces are CMC 2 creatures with less than 3 toughness makes them way more vulnerable to removal than Twin, which wasn't vulnerable to Lightning Bolts unless you used it on Pestermite or Bounding Krasis (in Temur builds) and couldn't be popped by Fatal Push without Revolt. Not to mention the buffed version of the deck has only been around for about a month, whereas Twin had been around for quite some time. This isn't to say that Twin necessarily deserves to be banned (a ring I'd rather not throw my hat into), but it's definitely too early to say that this deck was as good as Twin at fighting against disruption, and it's too new to have put up the same track record in tournaments as Twin, so I don't see why this deck's existence should be tied in any way to Twin's
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Decks
Modern: UWUW Control UBRGrixis Shadow URIzzet Phoenix
Because you can lost in turn3 and sometimes you cant even play a planeswalker, artifact, creature or nothing because if you do he will cast Chord or company and will combo. You cant play in your turn basically and they can do it in theirs and yours which is broken.
The probabilities to have all the pieces of the combos are very high even if the opponent has removal for one, the player cast a company and can find combo with others or change the strategy.
Lost in turn3 and not playing in your turn is destroy the format.
Losing on turn 3 when not interacted with is possible with more than 1 deck. I run Grishoalbrand, which can easily turn 1 Faithless Looting, turn 2 Goryo's Vengeance Griselbrand, draw deck, and win. Cheerios wins on turns 2 or 3 if not interacted with. Storm has a pretty consistent turn 3-4 kill if not interacted with. I could probably go on a little bit longer.
A good comparison to me is Cheerios. Cheerios is a much more fragile version of Collected Counters. But, it goes off a turn quicker if not interacted with. Although I haven't played against them yet, I'd guess that Storm and Cheerios do what Collected Counters does when matched against each other, but better. Obviously Collected Counters seems to be more resilient though, and that is a good thing! I haven't tested the versions that just won, but the version I played that was all-in on the combo was not that resilient, which is what stopped me from running it at tournaments. This is what I got from testing, although I should indeed test the newer list.
Also, no deck is going to get banned after 2-3 tournaments. Wizards has to give people time to adapt. If only a few tournaments were needed to do bans, we'd literally have Ad Nauseam, Lord of Atlantis, Tarmogoyf, etc. on the ban list. It would be silly and honestly players like myself that enjoy a challenge and a chance to adapt to a new metagame would quit the format. This deck is in no way any better than Tier 1/2 right now.
Also, I had to laugh at you calling Eldrazi Tron "not competitive." Sorry, you lost a bit of validity in my book on that one. Maybe it's not good at your LGS, but I assure you a deck that can turn 2 Thought-Knot Seer and follow with Smashers or large Walking Ballistas is definitely strong.
Actually I'd rather my deck lose so I don't have to worry about it being banned. It's the world we live in unfortunately.
Correction: You want your deck to win, but others to lose with it. I know the feeling. (Grishoalbrand player here)
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
Because you can lost in turn3 and sometimes you cant even play a planeswalker, artifact, creature or nothing because if you do he will cast Chord or company and will combo. You cant play in your turn basically and they can do it in theirs and yours which is broken.
The probabilities to have all the pieces of the combos are very high even if the opponent has removal for one, the player cast a company and can find combo with others or change the strategy.
Lost in turn3 and not playing in your turn is destroy the format.
Losing on turn 3 when not interacted with is possible with more than 1 deck. I run Grishoalbrand, which can easily turn 1 Faithless Looting, turn 2 Goryo's Vengeance Griselbrand, draw deck, and win. Cheerios wins on turns 2 or 3 if not interacted with. Storm has a pretty consistent turn 3-4 kill if not interacted with. I could probably go on a little bit longer.
A good comparison to me is Cheerios. Cheerios is a much more fragile version of Collected Counters. But, it goes off a turn quicker if not interacted with. Although I haven't played against them yet, I'd guess that Storm and Cheerios do what Collected Counters does when matched against each other, but better. Obviously Collected Counters seems to be more resilient though, and that is a good thing! I haven't tested the versions that just won, but the version I played that was all-in on the combo was not that resilient, which is what stopped me from running it at tournaments. This is what I got from testing, although I should indeed test the newer list.
Also, no deck is going to get banned after 2-3 tournaments. Wizards has to give people time to adapt. If only a few tournaments were needed to do bans, we'd literally have Ad Nauseam, Lord of Atlantis, Tarmogoyf, etc. on the ban list. It would be silly and honestly players like myself that enjoy a challenge and a chance to adapt to a new metagame would quit the format. This deck is in no way any better than Tier 1/2 right now.
Also, I had to laugh at you calling Eldrazi Tron "not competitive." Sorry, you lost a bit of validity in my book on that one. Maybe it's not good at your LGS, but I assure you a deck that can turn 2 Thought-Knot Seer and follow with Smashers or large Walking Ballistas is definitely strong.
Actually I'd rather my deck lose so I don't have to worry about it being banned. It's the world we live in unfortunately.
Correction: You want your deck to win, but others to lose with it. I know the feeling. (Grishoalbrand player here)
Can you quote the phrase where i say that tron is not competitive? I think you need help.
Does this suffice?
And yes, I do need help. I need help understanding why Devoted Druid should be banned. It seems like a joke compared with something in Affinity/Dredge/Grishoalbrand/etc./nearly every single other Modern legal deck.
*If I was an Affinity player and Devoted Druid got banned in the face of Affinity not sustaining a single ban from the inception of Modern in late 2011 to mid 2017, I would never expect something from it to get banned (and I'd slightly laugh inside at the extreme favoritism).
Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
I got a better idea, we unban Jace, Bloodbraid and Stoneforge. so we can police the bull***** decks.
in what way does any of those cards police anything other than what fair decks are viable? Or are we going to start running mana rocks to ramp out JtmS before your dead.
Just stahp with the banmania, please. Nothing needs a banning. Let the people enjoy their INTERACTABLE CREATURE BASED combo decks.
While I agree the deck does not need a ban whatsoever, in no way does this criteria make a deck safe.
A deck that can so easily be interacted(remember, Vizier Of Remedies can even be Forked Bolted if you want) should not be banned at all unless it's WAY too broken. That's why it's safe.
Despite whatever comments are told to us, level of interaction didn't stop several decks in the past from receiving bans. Most recently it was Infect and other small, fast creature decks that can fall to pieces from 1 or 2 removal spells. It's particularly annoying that the ban came after the spoiling of Fatal Push, but before it was even made legal to play to see how it would affect these decks. As a result, many of the decks that relied on Gitaxian Probe to be competitive and would be wrecked by Push regardless (Delver, Infect, Bloo, etc.) basically received a double whammy and have ceased to exist in any competitive form. Death's Shadow is the only one to have survived, because it could afford to trade speed for value.
I'm not saying that this deck deserves a ban at all, but using interactability as a measuring stick is inconsistent with several of their ban decisions. If the deck does something Wizards doesn't like, they will find a reason to ban it.
We had a good couple of weeks without Twin talk. I'd assumed cfusionpm had gone on holiday or something.
But we're back to beating the old dead horse, trying to get blood from the same old stone.
My only point was that his argument meant nothing in the current metagame. If you like, it's Tabak's law in action.
I don't think anyone's saying that the new iteration of GWx CoCo is safe from bannings because it's an interactive creature-based combo deck. They're saying to the people calling for something to be banned from the one month old deck that it can be interacted with to a large enough degree that we should at least wait until it sees the same success Twin did or if it's a frequent T4 Rule violator before calling for the banhammer. I mentioned this before, but Twin shouldn't even be a factor in this conversation
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Decks
Modern: UWUW Control UBRGrixis Shadow URIzzet Phoenix
We had a good couple of weeks without Twin talk. I'd assumed cfusionpm had gone on holiday or something.
But we're back to beating the old dead horse, trying to get blood from the same old stone.
My only point was that his argument meant nothing in the current metagame. If you like, it's Tabak's law in action.
I don't think anyone's saying that the new iteration of GWx CoCo is safe from bannings because it's an interactive creature-based combo deck. They're saying to the people calling for something to be banned from the one month old deck that it can be interacted with to a large enough degree that we should at least wait until it sees the same success Twin did or if it's a frequent T4 Rule violator before calling for the banhammer. I mentioned this before, but Twin shouldn't even be a factor in this conversation
That's it. Lets at least see how good it is before calling out bans. people are getting really ban happy lately. There are plenty of answers for the deck and Druid has been around a long time. Vizier of Remedies is the problem if there is one.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
"It just looks like people don't want any deck to win." - Correction - any deck except theirs.
UR Storm
G Stompy
URSuicide Bloo
Commander: (Don't play as much as I'd like)
UBPhenax, God of Deception
Legacy: UWR Miracles [https://deckstats.net/decks/44442/1092831-uwr-miracles-2]
Death's Shadow absolutely doesnt crush it. It's a swingy matchup; but closer to 50/50 than you'd think.
Source: I've been running abzan a ton through comp leagues on MTGO since the debut of Amonkhet; including multiple 5-0 runs.
The only point you've made is that you don't like Abzan Company. Care to articulate for discussion how the deck is destroying the format?
I play Magic: the Gathering, not Magic: the Commandering.
Actually I'd rather my deck lose so I don't have to worry about it being banned. It's the world we live in unfortunately.
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/651578#paper
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/651582#paper
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/651938#paper
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/651950#paper
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/651962#paper
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/tournament/scg-modern-iq-cary-2017-05-14#paper (5th place Merfolk has 2 Dismember in side)
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/tournament/scg-modern-classic-atlanta-2017-04-30#paper (8th place has 3 Dismember in main)
A resilient combo deck that is easily disrupted and can be hit by targeted hate with mostly 50/50 matchups and runs a solid value beatdown back up plan... Why does this sound so familiar? And why is this one OK?
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
It probably sounds familiar as it's the subject you derail every conversation to.
This all seems very familiar to jeskai nahiri or cheeri0s once they got their new printings. People see an exciting new variation to an existing deck that provides redundancy (usually some type of combo), people jam that deck at the next GP or SCG to either catch others off guard or because it's a fun new variation, it does well in said event, people wonder if it is busted or de-facto best deck, then the meta adapts.
Give it time and a few more events before we jump to conclusions on its strength. It's definitely strong, but warping?
Affinity
Death & Taxes
Mardu Nahiri
Forcing people to merge with twitch is stupid
Modern:
UWUW Control
UBRGrixis Shadow
URIzzet Phoenix
Losing on turn 3 when not interacted with is possible with more than 1 deck. I run Grishoalbrand, which can easily turn 1 Faithless Looting, turn 2 Goryo's Vengeance Griselbrand, draw deck, and win. Cheerios wins on turns 2 or 3 if not interacted with. Storm has a pretty consistent turn 3-4 kill if not interacted with. I could probably go on a little bit longer.
A good comparison to me is Cheerios. Cheerios is a much more fragile version of Collected Counters. But, it goes off a turn quicker if not interacted with. Although I haven't played against them yet, I'd guess that Storm and Cheerios do what Collected Counters does when matched against each other, but better. Obviously Collected Counters seems to be more resilient though, and that is a good thing! I haven't tested the versions that just won, but the version I played that was all-in on the combo was not that resilient, which is what stopped me from running it at tournaments. This is what I got from testing, although I should indeed test the newer list.
Also, no deck is going to get banned after 2-3 tournaments. Wizards has to give people time to adapt. If only a few tournaments were needed to do bans, we'd literally have Ad Nauseam, Lord of Atlantis, Tarmogoyf, etc. on the ban list. It would be silly and honestly players like myself that enjoy a challenge and a chance to adapt to a new metagame would quit the format. This deck is in no way any better than Tier 1/2 right now.
Also, I had to laugh at you calling Eldrazi Tron "not competitive." Sorry, you lost a bit of validity in my book on that one. Maybe it's not good at your LGS, but I assure you a deck that can turn 2 Thought-Knot Seer and follow with Smashers or large Walking Ballistas is definitely strong.
Correction: You want your deck to win, but others to lose with it. I know the feeling.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)Does this suffice?
And yes, I do need help. I need help understanding why Devoted Druid should be banned. It seems like a joke compared with something in Affinity/Dredge/Grishoalbrand/etc./nearly every single other Modern legal deck.
*If I was an Affinity player and Devoted Druid got banned in the face of Affinity not sustaining a single ban from the inception of Modern in late 2011 to mid 2017, I would never expect something from it to get banned (and I'd slightly laugh inside at the extreme favoritism).
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)While I agree the deck does not need a ban whatsoever, in no way does this criteria make a deck safe.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
in what way does any of those cards police anything other than what fair decks are viable? Or are we going to start running mana rocks to ramp out JtmS before your dead.
Despite whatever comments are told to us, level of interaction didn't stop several decks in the past from receiving bans. Most recently it was Infect and other small, fast creature decks that can fall to pieces from 1 or 2 removal spells. It's particularly annoying that the ban came after the spoiling of Fatal Push, but before it was even made legal to play to see how it would affect these decks. As a result, many of the decks that relied on Gitaxian Probe to be competitive and would be wrecked by Push regardless (Delver, Infect, Bloo, etc.) basically received a double whammy and have ceased to exist in any competitive form. Death's Shadow is the only one to have survived, because it could afford to trade speed for value.
I'm not saying that this deck deserves a ban at all, but using interactability as a measuring stick is inconsistent with several of their ban decisions. If the deck does something Wizards doesn't like, they will find a reason to ban it.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
Just a quick reminder that Twin was an interactable creature based combo deck.
But we're back to beating the old dead horse, trying to get blood from the same old stone.
Infraction issued for trolling --CavalryWolfPack
My only point was that his argument meant nothing in the current metagame. If you like, it's Tabak's law in action.
I don't think anyone's saying that the new iteration of GWx CoCo is safe from bannings because it's an interactive creature-based combo deck. They're saying to the people calling for something to be banned from the one month old deck that it can be interacted with to a large enough degree that we should at least wait until it sees the same success Twin did or if it's a frequent T4 Rule violator before calling for the banhammer. I mentioned this before, but Twin shouldn't even be a factor in this conversation
Modern:
UWUW Control
UBRGrixis Shadow
URIzzet Phoenix