It is a mistake to think of SFM as a 6 card package; 2 mystics with a couple of select swords, in a deck with ancient stirrings, would actually be quite powerful.
If finding equipment with stirrings was so powerful, wouldn't they be doing it now?
I'm not sure it's a six card package myself, but stirrings finding equipment for the corner case of having SFM in play but not the equipment you want in hand (and still in your deck) is very marginal.
No, I don't think stirrings makes a noticeable impact - it just has a small amount of upside that will come up in maybe 1/20 games.
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Modern Decks
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG
It is a mistake to think of SFM as a 6 card package; 2 mystics with a couple of select swords, in a deck with ancient stirrings, would actually be quite powerful.
If finding equipment with stirrings was so powerful, wouldn't they be doing it now?
I'm not sure it's a six card package myself, but stirrings finding equipment for the corner case of having SFM in play but not the equipment you want in hand (and still in your deck) is very marginal.
No, I don't think stirrings makes a noticeable impact - it just has a small amount of upside that will come up in maybe 1/20 games.
Its not about having the SFM in play already, just that by adding 2 or so more selection/tutor tools to a deck that is already running selection, can in fact make a large difference on how often you get to choose or reject a particular artifact; the current problem with equipment is that you really don't want to see them when you don't need them, and more selection helps on that front. The whole point of stirrings (and cantrips in general) is to smooth out those marginal cases that come up every 1/20 games while leaving the 19/20 intact.
Hey Mods, who usually does the ban/unban vote thread? Could we get that going again?
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Modern GB Rock U Flooding Merfolk RUG Delver Midrange WU Monks UW Tempo Geist GW Bogle GW Liege UR Tron B Vampires
Affinity Legacy
Fish
Goblins
Burn
Reanimator
Dredge
Affinity EDH W Akroma GBW Ghave BRU Thrax GR Ruric I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
I just hope to get sfm and preordain. I'd love DTT but of course they will make every effort to make sure that blue players don't get the same selection as green.
Hell after seeing the printing of censor i'm willing to sell my collection at this point.
I just hope to get sfm and preordain. I'd love DTT but of course they will make every effort to make sure that blue players don't get the same selection as green.
Hell after seeing the printing of censor i'm willing to sell my collection at this point.
Yes because UU Look at the top 7 and pick any 2 at instant speed is the same as anything Green has.
I just hope to get sfm and preordain. I'd love DTT but of course they will make every effort to make sure that blue players don't get the same selection as green.
Hell after seeing the printing of censor i'm willing to sell my collection at this point.
Yes because UU Look at the top 7 and pick any 2 at instant speed is the same as anything Green has.
I would love look at top 5, take 1 or look at top 6, cast 2 for free. That'd be pretty cool.
I just hope to get sfm and preordain. I'd love DTT but of course they will make every effort to make sure that blue players don't get the same selection as green.
Hell after seeing the printing of censor i'm willing to sell my collection at this point.
Yes because UU Look at the top 7 and pick any 2 at instant speed is the same as anything Green has.
I would love look at top 5, take 1 or look at top 6, cast 2 for free. That'd be pretty cool.
Nope that's oppressive cause you're tapping Islands not Forests. On a real note that's what is making it so hard to play against bant eldrazi or tron and coco. They get to look deeper into their deck and honestly have such an advantage for doing so.
I just hope to get sfm and preordain. I'd love DTT but of course they will make every effort to make sure that blue players don't get the same selection as green.
Hell after seeing the printing of censor i'm willing to sell my collection at this point.
Censor is really, really good. Hold onto your collection for a bit. Blue has a great counterspell curve right now between Spell Snare, Censor, Logic Knot, Spell Queller, and Cryptic Command.
I just hope to get sfm and preordain. I'd love DTT but of course they will make every effort to make sure that blue players don't get the same selection as green.
Hell after seeing the printing of censor i'm willing to sell my collection at this point.
Censor is really, really good. Hold onto your collection for a bit. Blue has a great counterspell curve right now between Spell Snare, Censor, Logic Knot, Spell Queller, and Cryptic Command.
Around 5k to not have to play a format that gets cards printed for blue that are bad and still are being labeled as good. Can you honestly put that in the same category as serpopard or harsh mentor?
I just hope to get sfm and preordain. I'd love DTT but of course they will make every effort to make sure that blue players don't get the same selection as green.
Hell after seeing the printing of censor i'm willing to sell my collection at this point.
Yes because UU Look at the top 7 and pick any 2 at instant speed is the same as anything Green has.
I would love look at top 5, take 1 or look at top 6, cast 2 for free. That'd be pretty cool.
You've already got draw 3 for 1 mana how is look at top 5 and pick 1 better
I just hope to get sfm and preordain. I'd love DTT but of course they will make every effort to make sure that blue players don't get the same selection as green.
Hell after seeing the printing of censor i'm willing to sell my collection at this point.
Yes because UU Look at the top 7 and pick any 2 at instant speed is the same as anything Green has.
I would love look at top 5, take 1 or look at top 6, cast 2 for free. That'd be pretty cool.
You've already got draw 3 for 1 mana how is look at top 5 and pick 1 better
It's pay 1 mana draw 3 if you live. Much different plus selection is better than raw cards for control decks. I care more about finding answers on time then 2 lands and another ancestral. This is also why combo/control decks were playing DTT over Cruise.
I just hope to get sfm and preordain. I'd love DTT but of course they will make every effort to make sure that blue players don't get the same selection as green.
Hell after seeing the printing of censor i'm willing to sell my collection at this point.
Censor is really, really good. Hold onto your collection for a bit. Blue has a great counterspell curve right now between Spell Snare, Censor, Logic Knot, Spell Queller, and Cryptic Command.
Most people here are vastly overestimating the power of 2 mana counterspells in Modern, not even Counterspell would be that great. There is a reason why 90% of the interaction in Modern costs only 1 mana, 2 mana counterspells will just never be great in a format where most cards cost 1 or 2 mana. Modern needs a good 1 mana counterspell with a downside not a 2 mana one.
Many say that it's good in the early game and you can cycle it later, but 2 mana counterspells aren't actually good in the early game, you need to gain a tempo advantage for it to be good which means that you have to counter a 3+cmc spell and turn 3 is also the turn where many decks will not tap out anymore and instead play 1 or 2 lower cmc cards(as I said most cards in Modern cost 1 or 2 mana) which means that they can easily play around Censor and at best you spent 2 mana to counter their one drop.
All I can say there is a reason why the only Force Spike effect that sees play costs 0 mana Daze and I just don't think that the cycle effect makes up for having a most of the times very bad card stuck in your hand(Force Spike isn't even good for 1 mana let alone 2) in a fast format like Modern.
Censor is really, really good. Hold onto your collection for a bit. Blue has a great counterspell curve right now between Spell Snare, Censor, Logic Knot, Spell Queller, and Cryptic Command.
What card are you cutting from your deck to put Censor in it? Leak? Leak is at least still a counterspell in the midgame. Just putting Cycle U on it doesn't make it a good card to put in your deck. 90% of the time it's just going to be a 1 mana cycle because it falls off as a counter so quickly, and you can't expect to do well with cards that low impact in your deck. Just because you can cycle it for another card doesn't make it a good card, you'd do better just playing better cards in the slots you gave to Censor.
You've already got draw 3 for 1 mana how is look at top 5 and pick 1 better
It's U: Draw 3 cards 4 turns from now. There's a reason only the slowest most controlling blue decks are playing AV, most decks can't expect to survive 4 turns to get those cards. One of the biggest problems with the answers decks in Modern is how diverse the threats are while the answers are very narrow. So you end up having to play a lot of 1-ofs and 2-ofs to cover yourself against corner cases, and just hope you find those cards when you face the deck you put them in there for. As of now, the best thing we have for one mana is get a random card and then scry 2, or look at 2 take one. Compare that to AS, which is look at 5 take 1. Yes, it has a deck building cost, but in the decks that run it it's not a cost at all, they were going to be primarily colorless anyway. The difference in power level is really stupid. There's no reason Preordain or maybe even Ponder should be banned while Ancient Stirrings is legal.
Most people here are vastly overestimating the power of 2 mana counterspells in Modern, not even Counterspell would be that great. There is a reason why 90% of the interaction in Modern costs only 1 mana, 2 mana counterspells will just never be great in a format where most cards cost 1 or 2 mana. Modern needs a good 1 mana counterspell with a downside not a 2 mana one.
I get what you're saying, but just a better 2 mana counter would be a huge boon. Control decks need a card that they can sit on and say, "This card will protect me from one thing." Right now that card is Cryptic Command, which can sometimes just be too slow. We do have a lot of 1 mana counters with downside: Dispel, Spell Pierce, Spell Snare, Stubborn Denial, Ceremonious Rejection (which would be SO much better if Cavern of Souls didn't exist...), Swan Song, and Invasive Surgery. All pretty solid 1 mana counters with different targets and drawbacks. The problem is that we don't have that bread-and-butter 2 mana counter without a drawback, or with a drawback not related to how good it is at countering something (like just losing some life or something), to back up those narrow 1 mana counters. We just have Remand, which doesn't permanently deal with a threat, Mana Leak, which dies in the late game, Logic Knot, which can be dead early or dead if they deal with our graveyard and doesn't let us play other delve cards, or Deprive, which puts you really far behind on tempo. Just a vanilla 2 mana counter without upside or downside is the missing link here.
As of now, the best thing we have for one mana is get a random card and then scry 2, or look at 2 take one. Compare that to AS, which is look at 5 take 1. Yes, it has a deck building cost, but in the decks that run it it's not a cost at all, they were going to be primarily colorless anyway. The difference in power level is really stupid.
Imagine that same limitation if Ancient Stirrings read U, Sorcery, "Look at the top 5, take a land or a blue card." Same basic restriction, but everyone would lose their minds about it. It's really sad how objectively weak blue is at doing blue things.
Why are people wanting ds cards banned? The deck basically loses to and good creature value deck. I'm like 6-0 with saheeli cat vs it. Lets not have more bans plz.
I don't actually think that Censor is that good. I tend to agree with SuperHans99, except that I think that Force Spike would be playable.
Despite how I feel about Counterspell and Preordain, I still talk to people weekly who believe that these will be the new boogeymen of Modern if introduced. I realize that Counterspell has its "issues" with getting into Modern, but I feel that if Wizards had wanted it, they'd find a way to do it. I've been pretty much resigned to giving up on it getting into Modern. But Preordain - the one that I hear SO many players saying is too good - is a card I won't give up on. Even Ponder is pretty close to okay in my book in Modern and it is leagues above Preordain.
Sometimes I think that Wizards is effectively trying to make Modern different than Legacy. But this doesn't make up for the problems of Legacy, which in my honest opinion, are just that it is inaccessible because of the price. Once non-Legacy players get over the Brainstorm/Force of Will "dilemma," they will most likely realize what a diverse, fun, and interesting format that Legacy is. The problems just stem from the price. I often wish that my dual lands would decrease by 50% if we could have just 50% more Legacy players in California.
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
Stirrings is not comparable to ponder or preordain guys, come on. The first one is only useful in bigstupidcolorlessguys and the other slots in pretty much every combo deck that could play blue. They give too much consistency to the format. Stirrings will be banned if colorless strategies become too dominant/consistent (and I'd like that cos I think it prevents control from seeing play and thus disrupts the whole format).
But 1 step at a time, first traverse, maybe unban sfm, then we see.
I don't actually think that Censor is that good. I tend to agree with SuperHans99, except that I think that Force Spike would be playable.
If Force Spike would be playable, shouldn't the same go for Mana Tithe as at least a 1- or 2-of in U/Wx Control and similar decks?
In some rare cases it does, but even then it's usually just there as a game one gotcha card that gets boarded out once shown, not really as a reliable counter.
I guess Force Spike with Cycling would be too good? And since we can't have a 1.5 mana cost Force Spike, the next best thing is sadly 2.
Personally I hope that we at least see some sweet experiments with Censor and that it perhaps even finds a niche, but I wouldn't bank on it.
It does protect your Delver on the draw for one turn, so that is something I guess. ^^
But so does Spell Pierce... yeah, idk.
You mean that is because it's pulling reality smashers or Karns? you're right stirrings isn't even close to preordain it's better.
Ancient Stirrings's has a different and generally lower ceiling than a generic filtering cantrip though.
That is why it does more.
The best thing Stirrings gets is w/e the best Colourless card in your deck is.
The best thing Preordain or Ponder grab is the best card in your deck.
If the best thing in your deck is a 5 Mana 5/5 Haste, Trample Colourless thingy, then yeah, Stirrings is better.
Or a Karn etc. etc.
But Blue cantrips can get you anything, or dig towards it, which makes them go into vastly more decks and archetypes, as well as generally more universal.
They get you lands in the early game, threats and answers in the midgame and whatever that one card in your library is that you need right now to win or at least not lose.
Be it a boardwipe, an answer to w/e keeps you from comboing off right now or the reach to closer out the game.
Yes, many tools can also be found in Colourless or at least have some equivalent.
But still, the possibilities for a Preordain are much higher than for Ancient Stirrings, and seeing how these cards have turned out in the past, often eventually powering up Combo decks to very consistent levels, I can kinda get why WotC may be wary about unbans in that category.
As silly as that may seem to us right now.
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People are aware that lantern plays stirrings exactly the way they feel about preordain right?
Pretty much this. Lantern control, Gx Tron builds, and bant eldrazi all are enjoying a spell that functions like a better filter than preordain is. Can a blue cantrip find more because it's not restricted to colorless? Sure, but let's not pretend that those decks that pay the "cost" of having ramp lands and haymaker colorless spells are exactly insanely high.
Without DS in the format or another regulating aggro deck Tron would see more meta play and bant eldrazi is doing just fine in it using stirrings. I am not saying that legacy level cards shouldn't be in modern, but it should be distributed better. SFM should exist for white regardless if it powers up abzan and not blue, because it's not too powerful with the numerous amounts of removal for it and white is sideboard/path atm. Preordain should be in because scrying first then drawing may help combo, however, it's great for control and honestly both archtypes are struggling.
DTT was banned in Legacy mostly because blue already had brainstorm, ponder, and preordain. This led to Miracles and blue based combo being even more over the top. DTT was banned in modern because they were afraid of Delver just using that instead of cruise. Without free cantrips, like git probe, I think it would be harder for delver to use the card, not because they don't have islands but the velocity would probably be on street wraith and though scour to fuel the delve.
Right now, if we put a moratorium on "free" cantrips (like bauble, wraith, etc) thought scour and fetches would be the primary ways of fueling these spells and it would be slower. If you want a reactive control deck to exist you need to add consistency back to the format. Delve spells are very powerful and I understand the reservation, but if you're going to have eight legacy discard spell DS then you need to have counter to all the hand disruption.
People are aware that lantern plays stirrings exactly the way they feel about preordain right?
Pretty much this. Lantern control, Gx Tron builds, and bant eldrazi all are enjoying a spell that functions like a better filter than preordain is. Can a blue cantrip find more because it's not restricted to colorless? Sure, but let's not pretend that those decks that pay the "cost" of having ramp lands and haymaker colorless spells are exactly insanely high.
Without DS in the format or another regulating aggro deck Tron would see more meta play and bant eldrazi is doing just fine in it using stirrings. I am not saying that legacy level cards shouldn't be in modern, but it should be distributed better. SFM should exist for white regardless if it powers up abzan and not blue, because it's not too powerful with the numerous amounts of removal for it and white is sideboard/path atm. Preordain should be in because scrying first then drawing may help combo, however, it's great for control and honestly both archtypes are struggling.
DTT was banned in Legacy mostly because blue already had brainstorm, ponder, and preordain. This led to Miracles and blue based combo being even more over the top. DTT was banned in modern because they were afraid of Delver just using that instead of cruise. Without free cantrips, like git probe, I think it would be harder for delver to use the card, not because they don't have islands but the velocity would probably be on street wraith and though scour to fuel the delve.
Right now, if we put a moratorium on "free" cantrips (like bauble, wraith, etc) thought scour and fetches would be the primary ways of fueling these spells and it would be slower. If you want a reactive control deck to exist you need to add consistency back to the format. Delve spells are very powerful and I understand the reservation, but if you're going to have eight legacy discard spell DS then you need to have counter to all the hand disruption.
Yup people need to get over the idea that this isn't legacy.
Yeah, Tron most definitely won't play SFM on any level.not enough flex spots and our threats are better. SFM is good because it's very efficient and drops a big threat for a small investment. Tron doesn't care about that one bit, Tron pumps huge resources to play the biggest stuff, full stop. If Batterskull were better than other t3 Tron threats, the deck would just be playing it without SFM right now, we have the mana
SFM would help sure up aggro matches and make games in which you don't hit tron on 3 more winnable.
The problem is that WOTC wants Modern to be a flagship format of Magic. So naturally, they want to have skill-based characteristics in it, but also they want it to be kind of 'new' every so often. Previous bans reflect this, whether it is the Pro Tour or having the second most GP's in a year. Splinter Twin was banned because it was a established Tier 1 deck that would need a big change in the format via Standard to make it not Tier 1 anymore(rotate it if you will). So they figure that the best way to rotate the format that many people see and play is by bannings. That kind of fired back because people, despite playing Modern a lot, know that this is a 'ban format'. Bad propaganda if you ask me, and i know a few players that left Modern because of this(screwing with people's money is bad).
My point being, consistency(or high consistency) is an enemy of this format. Blue cantrips are banned under the premise that 'there's some novelty in games playing differently form each other' and i totally agree with this. Legacy is a good format but it is super agglomerated by Blue combo decks and Blue tempo/prison decks(those who have FOW), and if you happen to dislike blue, you have to do something pretty unfair like Death and Taxes does, which is a prison strategy above all and locks resources until it the opponent can't even play a spell. It is a very high consistency format and it becomes stale despite having 100 'playable' archetypes because the same decks overperform over and over. The bar is set too high. Modern with the blue cantrips(Ponder and Preordain, or even just one of those+Serum Visions) is too risky for them as it attempts against that golden rule of theirs. Right now i don't think anyone wants Modern to become like Legacy, i prefer the variety and being known as a 'brewer's paradise' and all that jazz which people seem to enjoy so much.
I think this is the mentality going forward, approaching bans and unbans. This happens to be a good rule for Twin as it has the 'right' consistency. SFM could fall here too. Jace and BBE too but are more borderline as they become the stale two best choices for top of curve in those decks that supoort them. Also, i think Ancient Stirrings is closer to being banned that Preordain being unbanned.
I don't think that maverick is inherently unfair of a deck and it sees legacy play. Also I'm not asking for blue to be tier 0 I am asking it to have the tools necessary. Bant eldrazi plays blue, if serum visions is equal to ancient stirrings why doesn't it play serum?
I'm not sure it's a six card package myself, but stirrings finding equipment for the corner case of having SFM in play but not the equipment you want in hand (and still in your deck) is very marginal.
No, I don't think stirrings makes a noticeable impact - it just has a small amount of upside that will come up in maybe 1/20 games.
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG
Its not about having the SFM in play already, just that by adding 2 or so more selection/tutor tools to a deck that is already running selection, can in fact make a large difference on how often you get to choose or reject a particular artifact; the current problem with equipment is that you really don't want to see them when you don't need them, and more selection helps on that front. The whole point of stirrings (and cantrips in general) is to smooth out those marginal cases that come up every 1/20 games while leaving the 19/20 intact.
GB Rock
U Flooding Merfolk
RUG Delver Midrange
WU Monks
UW Tempo Geist
GW Bogle
GW Liege
UR Tron
B Vampires
Affinity
Legacy
Fish
Goblins
Burn
Reanimator
Dredge
Affinity
EDH
W Akroma
GBW Ghave
BRU Thrax
GR Ruric
I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
Hell after seeing the printing of censor i'm willing to sell my collection at this point.
Yes because UU Look at the top 7 and pick any 2 at instant speed is the same as anything Green has.
I would love look at top 5, take 1 or look at top 6, cast 2 for free. That'd be pretty cool.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
Nope that's oppressive cause you're tapping Islands not Forests. On a real note that's what is making it so hard to play against bant eldrazi or tron and coco. They get to look deeper into their deck and honestly have such an advantage for doing so.
Censor is really, really good. Hold onto your collection for a bit. Blue has a great counterspell curve right now between Spell Snare, Censor, Logic Knot, Spell Queller, and Cryptic Command.
Around 5k to not have to play a format that gets cards printed for blue that are bad and still are being labeled as good. Can you honestly put that in the same category as serpopard or harsh mentor?
You've already got draw 3 for 1 mana how is look at top 5 and pick 1 better
It's pay 1 mana draw 3 if you live. Much different plus selection is better than raw cards for control decks. I care more about finding answers on time then 2 lands and another ancestral. This is also why combo/control decks were playing DTT over Cruise.
Most people here are vastly overestimating the power of 2 mana counterspells in Modern, not even Counterspell would be that great. There is a reason why 90% of the interaction in Modern costs only 1 mana, 2 mana counterspells will just never be great in a format where most cards cost 1 or 2 mana. Modern needs a good 1 mana counterspell with a downside not a 2 mana one.
I'm also not very optimistic about Censor.
Many say that it's good in the early game and you can cycle it later, but 2 mana counterspells aren't actually good in the early game, you need to gain a tempo advantage for it to be good which means that you have to counter a 3+cmc spell and turn 3 is also the turn where many decks will not tap out anymore and instead play 1 or 2 lower cmc cards(as I said most cards in Modern cost 1 or 2 mana) which means that they can easily play around Censor and at best you spent 2 mana to counter their one drop.
All I can say there is a reason why the only Force Spike effect that sees play costs 0 mana Daze and I just don't think that the cycle effect makes up for having a most of the times very bad card stuck in your hand(Force Spike isn't even good for 1 mana let alone 2) in a fast format like Modern.
What card are you cutting from your deck to put Censor in it? Leak? Leak is at least still a counterspell in the midgame. Just putting Cycle U on it doesn't make it a good card to put in your deck. 90% of the time it's just going to be a 1 mana cycle because it falls off as a counter so quickly, and you can't expect to do well with cards that low impact in your deck. Just because you can cycle it for another card doesn't make it a good card, you'd do better just playing better cards in the slots you gave to Censor.
It's U: Draw 3 cards 4 turns from now. There's a reason only the slowest most controlling blue decks are playing AV, most decks can't expect to survive 4 turns to get those cards. One of the biggest problems with the answers decks in Modern is how diverse the threats are while the answers are very narrow. So you end up having to play a lot of 1-ofs and 2-ofs to cover yourself against corner cases, and just hope you find those cards when you face the deck you put them in there for. As of now, the best thing we have for one mana is get a random card and then scry 2, or look at 2 take one. Compare that to AS, which is look at 5 take 1. Yes, it has a deck building cost, but in the decks that run it it's not a cost at all, they were going to be primarily colorless anyway. The difference in power level is really stupid. There's no reason Preordain or maybe even Ponder should be banned while Ancient Stirrings is legal.
I get what you're saying, but just a better 2 mana counter would be a huge boon. Control decks need a card that they can sit on and say, "This card will protect me from one thing." Right now that card is Cryptic Command, which can sometimes just be too slow. We do have a lot of 1 mana counters with downside: Dispel, Spell Pierce, Spell Snare, Stubborn Denial, Ceremonious Rejection (which would be SO much better if Cavern of Souls didn't exist...), Swan Song, and Invasive Surgery. All pretty solid 1 mana counters with different targets and drawbacks. The problem is that we don't have that bread-and-butter 2 mana counter without a drawback, or with a drawback not related to how good it is at countering something (like just losing some life or something), to back up those narrow 1 mana counters. We just have Remand, which doesn't permanently deal with a threat, Mana Leak, which dies in the late game, Logic Knot, which can be dead early or dead if they deal with our graveyard and doesn't let us play other delve cards, or Deprive, which puts you really far behind on tempo. Just a vanilla 2 mana counter without upside or downside is the missing link here.
UBR Grixis Shadow UBR
UR Izzet Phoenix UR
UW UW Control UW
GB GB Rock GB
Commander
BG Meren of Clan Nel Toth BG
BGUW Atraxa, Praetor's Voice BGUW
Imagine that same limitation if Ancient Stirrings read U, Sorcery, "Look at the top 5, take a land or a blue card." Same basic restriction, but everyone would lose their minds about it. It's really sad how objectively weak blue is at doing blue things.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
Despite how I feel about Counterspell and Preordain, I still talk to people weekly who believe that these will be the new boogeymen of Modern if introduced. I realize that Counterspell has its "issues" with getting into Modern, but I feel that if Wizards had wanted it, they'd find a way to do it. I've been pretty much resigned to giving up on it getting into Modern. But Preordain - the one that I hear SO many players saying is too good - is a card I won't give up on. Even Ponder is pretty close to okay in my book in Modern and it is leagues above Preordain.
Sometimes I think that Wizards is effectively trying to make Modern different than Legacy. But this doesn't make up for the problems of Legacy, which in my honest opinion, are just that it is inaccessible because of the price. Once non-Legacy players get over the Brainstorm/Force of Will "dilemma," they will most likely realize what a diverse, fun, and interesting format that Legacy is. The problems just stem from the price. I often wish that my dual lands would decrease by 50% if we could have just 50% more Legacy players in California.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)But 1 step at a time, first traverse, maybe unban sfm, then we see.
If Force Spike would be playable, shouldn't the same go for Mana Tithe as at least a 1- or 2-of in U/Wx Control and similar decks?
In some rare cases it does, but even then it's usually just there as a game one gotcha card that gets boarded out once shown, not really as a reliable counter.
I guess Force Spike with Cycling would be too good? And since we can't have a 1.5 mana cost Force Spike, the next best thing is sadly 2.
Personally I hope that we at least see some sweet experiments with Censor and that it perhaps even finds a niche, but I wouldn't bank on it.
It does protect your Delver on the draw for one turn, so that is something I guess. ^^
But so does Spell Pierce... yeah, idk.
Ancient Stirrings's has a different and generally lower ceiling than a generic filtering cantrip though.
That is why it does more.
The best thing Stirrings gets is w/e the best Colourless card in your deck is.
The best thing Preordain or Ponder grab is the best card in your deck.
If the best thing in your deck is a 5 Mana 5/5 Haste, Trample Colourless thingy, then yeah, Stirrings is better.
Or a Karn etc. etc.
But Blue cantrips can get you anything, or dig towards it, which makes them go into vastly more decks and archetypes, as well as generally more universal.
They get you lands in the early game, threats and answers in the midgame and whatever that one card in your library is that you need right now to win or at least not lose.
Be it a boardwipe, an answer to w/e keeps you from comboing off right now or the reach to closer out the game.
Yes, many tools can also be found in Colourless or at least have some equivalent.
But still, the possibilities for a Preordain are much higher than for Ancient Stirrings, and seeing how these cards have turned out in the past, often eventually powering up Combo decks to very consistent levels, I can kinda get why WotC may be wary about unbans in that category.
As silly as that may seem to us right now.
Standard infinite combos giving you a headache and the opponent always has Force of Will?
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Pretty much this. Lantern control, Gx Tron builds, and bant eldrazi all are enjoying a spell that functions like a better filter than preordain is. Can a blue cantrip find more because it's not restricted to colorless? Sure, but let's not pretend that those decks that pay the "cost" of having ramp lands and haymaker colorless spells are exactly insanely high.
Without DS in the format or another regulating aggro deck Tron would see more meta play and bant eldrazi is doing just fine in it using stirrings. I am not saying that legacy level cards shouldn't be in modern, but it should be distributed better. SFM should exist for white regardless if it powers up abzan and not blue, because it's not too powerful with the numerous amounts of removal for it and white is sideboard/path atm. Preordain should be in because scrying first then drawing may help combo, however, it's great for control and honestly both archtypes are struggling.
DTT was banned in Legacy mostly because blue already had brainstorm, ponder, and preordain. This led to Miracles and blue based combo being even more over the top. DTT was banned in modern because they were afraid of Delver just using that instead of cruise. Without free cantrips, like git probe, I think it would be harder for delver to use the card, not because they don't have islands but the velocity would probably be on street wraith and though scour to fuel the delve.
Right now, if we put a moratorium on "free" cantrips (like bauble, wraith, etc) thought scour and fetches would be the primary ways of fueling these spells and it would be slower. If you want a reactive control deck to exist you need to add consistency back to the format. Delve spells are very powerful and I understand the reservation, but if you're going to have eight legacy discard spell DS then you need to have counter to all the hand disruption.
Yup people need to get over the idea that this isn't legacy.
SFM would help sure up aggro matches and make games in which you don't hit tron on 3 more winnable.
My point being, consistency(or high consistency) is an enemy of this format. Blue cantrips are banned under the premise that 'there's some novelty in games playing differently form each other' and i totally agree with this. Legacy is a good format but it is super agglomerated by Blue combo decks and Blue tempo/prison decks(those who have FOW), and if you happen to dislike blue, you have to do something pretty unfair like Death and Taxes does, which is a prison strategy above all and locks resources until it the opponent can't even play a spell. It is a very high consistency format and it becomes stale despite having 100 'playable' archetypes because the same decks overperform over and over. The bar is set too high. Modern with the blue cantrips(Ponder and Preordain, or even just one of those+Serum Visions) is too risky for them as it attempts against that golden rule of theirs. Right now i don't think anyone wants Modern to become like Legacy, i prefer the variety and being known as a 'brewer's paradise' and all that jazz which people seem to enjoy so much.
I think this is the mentality going forward, approaching bans and unbans. This happens to be a good rule for Twin as it has the 'right' consistency. SFM could fall here too. Jace and BBE too but are more borderline as they become the stale two best choices for top of curve in those decks that supoort them. Also, i think Ancient Stirrings is closer to being banned that Preordain being unbanned.