Mutagenic is enough to slow down infect, and liliana will make jund/abzan decks fair and give more decks options in the format to come out of woodwork.
abrupt decay, kholaghan's command, spell snare, list goes on so much to stop it or the equipment it grabs just is meh in meta.
This is an awful suggestion
Jund and Junk can survive any ban except for two cards, Goyf and Liliana of the Veil. If you ban either of those cards, Jund and Junk absolutely die on the spot. Why the hell even play a fair deck?
If LOTV or Goyf get banned, I'm absolutely cashing out of modern and out of Magic altogether and just play videogames as a side hobby instead
What the hell is LOTV doing that's so broken? She can't be slotted into every deck, she's 3 of, which is what a lot of decks don't want to go past, mana wise
She is absolutely worthless against swarm creature decks, and she's not good enough to win on her own against big ramp decks
I have no clue why anyone would choose to play a fair deck in the green black colors if you can't play goyf or Lilly, at that point, I'd rather play a *****ty blue deck that gets crapped on by a bunch of other decks in the format
I don't know why, but your crappy post definitely hit a nerve and put me in a bad mood, I think probably because we have a bunch of scrubs crying for bans instead of unbanning cards
We need safety valves, not banning public enemy number one. Some bans are correct, like POD, Treasure cruise/DDT, MAYBE Twin
We can't even say, "get this deck, it's a safe investment".
Enough people like you cry hard enough, and I'm actually worried that they would ban a card like LOTV
Seriously, soon we're going to see either Ravager/Mox opal banned, Ancient Stirrings, all of it
If Lantern ever see's tier 1 status for 8 months, I'd start worrying about an Ensnaring Bridge ban
Lots of people are saying this is going to prevent people from "Buying into Modern".
That phrase really bothers me, because it implies that in order to play in this format, you need to pay up for some very specific things.
I'm hoping that this shakes up the format enough that people have to come up with new decks, and that net-decking might die down for a bit, at least until the next big Modern tournament where people will, doubtless, start copying the pros.
Point the first: Kiki Chord is not a viable replacement for Twin. The closest 'twin like' play styles I have found are that janky Grixis Kiki/Goryo's, Taking Turns, and Shape Anew. Nothing else is close.
Point the second: People do not want Bans, unless they will be given back unbans in turn. That is what would have taken some of the sting off this.
Frankly, I think most see why these ban's needed, or at the very least COULD BE ARGUED, to happen. What should have taken place after, is freeing SFM, Preordain, and Twin.
Then, we could have seen what would happen to the format.
Yes it will slow down the dredge deck. Those two cards is sometimes a life line. And to be able to play 6/6 regen over cage is something. The thug will dredge for 4 alittle short on the dredge part and alot shorter on the threat part... now cage will really kill a dredge deck if goes un answered on early turns.
Assuming big-mana/go-large decks rise up I response to a slowing of the format, does anyone have any thoughts on what rises up to prey on them? Burn I imagine is a big one, and I suspect go-wide strategies like Elves and Tokens may be well-positioned since big mana has AFAIK largely moved from sweepers to spot removal. And also perhaps some kind of tempo decks like your Grixis Delver, with a bent towards disruption like Spell Pierce or Mana Leak.
Or just more of the same old Infect etc.?
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Playing UX Mana Denial until Modern gets the answers it needs.
WUBRG Humans BRW Mardu Pyromancer UW UW "Control" UR Blue Moon
Assuming big-mana/go-large decks rise up I response to a slowing of the format, does anyone have any thoughts on what rises up to prey on them? Burn I imagine is a big one, and I suspect go-wide strategies like Elves and Tokens may be well-positioned since big mana has AFAIK largely moved from sweepers to spot removal. And also perhaps some kind of tempo decks like your Grixis Delver, with a bent towards disruption like Spell Pierce or Mana Leak.
Or just more of the same old Infect etc.?
Ugin laughs at your swarm decks so hard. There is no reason to play White in Tron with Dredge on the DL.
THIS 100X!!! If you don't agree with this then there is no amount of logic that will ever convince you that good, non-oppressive, combos should be allowed. If you don't agree with it then just don't play this game, and you certainly shouldn't feel entitled to make any comment on ban lists ever.
well, this ban announcement really dissapointed me. i get that probe is a strong, hell even broken card, i really do. ive been probed a lot, it doesnt feel good. ive cast probe hundreds of times and seen the reactions on my opponents faces. but modern is FILLED with these types of cards, hell its what the format is all about! playing strong strategies you cant play anywhere else without having to worry about your cards rotating and not being able to play them anymore. i could seriously sit here and list 50 cards on the same power level as probe, many cards that even see more play than probe!
this ban announcement is a huge step in the wrong direction. their pasts bans were all predictable, and followed very strict patterns. sure, you never REALLY knew, but if you followed the patterns you could have a very strong idea. the cards banned today literally fit ZERO criteria for ban. removing the pro tour was supposed to cause wizards to ban stuff less frequently, yet here we are 1 year later, and they are banning cards for LESS REASON then they were with the pro tour? this ban season was literally filled with terrible articles by pro's whining about card x or card y, its like they cherry picked their ban announcement from those articles rather than using the data and numbers they always have, and this is reflected upon in the article (really? those explanations were weak, just look at the twin ban announcement then look at this one). we really needed a period of unbans and no bans purely to quell the banmania so rampant in the format and to restore player confidence. every time they ban a card, some % of the owners of that deck leave the format/game forever, they can solve these problems without hurting the playerbase. instead, they listen to whining butthurt pro articles that are really more clickbait ads than real articles and continue this banmania fueled discussion of the format.
that being said, i really do believe these bans are in fact good for the format in a pure balance standpoint. they nerf the decks running them without killing them (if you think the probe ban killed your deck, you are either heavily overestimating how important this card is or your deck is living proof the card needed to go) and they nerf the decks that were "problems" in the format. this sets an interesting new precedent, as in the past wizards just nuked decks altogether in the format instead of just nerfing them. i could get behind this new approach to the banlist, as long as they are not like this one. i dont want to see cards banned just because they are good cards, i want to see cards banned that nerf decks that are oppressive. things like banning deceiver exarch instead of twin, or banning eye of ugin instead of eye and temple. the important thing is that they should not be just "well the formats a bit too aggro-y, lets hit probe" and much more "well splinter twin decks ticked criteria x, so what can we take away that just nerfs it a bit"
overall, my confidence level for the format is basically 0 as a result of this. if we do not see some meaningful unbans in 5 weeks, i do not know if i will continue playing the format. tbh, if come april they do not have plans for ways to add cards outside of standard to fix moderns problems outside of bans, i dont think i will be able to play the format anymore. they just keep banning all of these cool, unique decks. i was watching one of the old pro tours a few days ago, watched a twin vs pod match and felt straight up sad that both of these entities just dont exist anymore due to bans. not arguing that these bans were not correct but its just rough seeing the format you have loved for so long get ripped apart, and watch wizards singlehandedly ruin the attitudes of the entire playerbase
I actually thought there's going to be an uptick of Delve creatures like Tasigur and Gurmag. Fatal Push was the card to slow down Infect, Kiln Fiend, Death Shadow decks. I don't feel there was a reason to ban G. Probe when an answer was right at the doorsteps.
As for dredge, I never saw a problem especially when it was solved with G/W Tron eating them alive left and right.
What these bans feel like is wizards are catering to people that scream they aren't able to beat a deck because they refuse to adapt their old decklist to combat the new metagame. I have seen zero Yixlid Jailers, Graftdigger's Cages, Extirpates, Wheel of Sun and Moon, etc to help fight things off.
Honestly bans like this give me a ton of confidence in wizards at the modern level.
Kinda disappointed not to see an unban, but I suspect they don't want to do bans and unbans at the same time unless forced, since it makes for wildly unpredictable metagame shifts and no real firm idea of cause and effect.
I actually thought there's going to be an uptick of Delve creatures like Tasigur and Gurmag. Fatal Push was the card to slow down Infect, Kiln Fiend, Death Shadow decks. I don't feel there was a reason to ban G. Probe when an answer was right at the doorsteps.
As for dredge, I never saw a problem especially when it was solved with G/W Tron eating them alive left and right.
What these bans feel like is wizards are catering to people that scream they aren't able to beat a deck because they refuse to adapt their old decklist to combat the new metagame. I have seen zero Yixlid Jailers, Graftdigger's Cages, Extirpates, Wheel of Sun and Moon, etc to help fight things off.
I see the logic in banning probe, I even agree with it, but I'm sad for the reasons you listed
We were all really excited to see push combat these decks, and it was the right move
We need unbans though, I don't want to see all these decks that do cool things die off. I'm a Gbx player but I don't want the format to be a bunch of midrange creature decks
Sigh. Guess we will be seeing stirrings, moxie Opal or plating and God knows what else soon
I'd love cards to be introduced without having to filter through standard
Standard has devolved into big dumb creatures and superfriend decks
I'm unhappy about no unbans, but I'm going to be really upset if there's no big unban in March, unless the format is flourishing
I think that there is a real argument to be made that without Probe Become Immense loses a lot of it's value. Both Infect's and Death's Shadow's redundancy has always proven to be one of their greatest strengths, so they aren't decks that will just shrug off this banning without feeling it. Git. Probe will undoubtedly be replaced by something very strong, but whatever it is, it will not allow either Infect or DS Zoo to plunge all in knowing that the road was clear to end the game with remarkable quickness. Peek is an option, sure, but it slows the deck down by an entire turn to get the same effect. And yes, these decks could also adopt another 1 phyrexian mana spell like surgical extraction to feed a quick Become Immense, but without the knowledge of what's in hand, it becomes more dangerous to do so. (Although printings like Blossoming Defense made things much easier in this regard.)
If we were to use the commonly used car analogy that gets tossed around then I'd argue that Wizards has looked at these decks and banned the headlights. Git. Probe did exactly what Wizards stated it did, and while the banning does seem a bit arbitrary as a glance, when you consider what Probe allowed these decks to do (freely enable an overwhelming all in method play) it starts to make sense.
At the risk of going too deep with the analogies, I'll use one last one--Git. Probe created a sort of "insider information" scenario that benefited 2 already very powerful decks. And there's a reason why we've outlawed insider trading, it's just not copicetic with what Wizards (and many players) wants from the format.
While I fully understand the perspective that Become Immense is, in many eyes, the bannable card, I think you have to consider what made it so. Git. Probe was that enabler.
That's just my reading of the situation.
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No one spoke. There was no need. The threat of the Eldrazi presented a simple choice: lay down your arms and die for nothing, or hold them fast and die for something.
No one spoke. There was no need. The threat of the Eldrazi presented a simple choice: lay down your arms and die for nothing, or hold them fast and die for something.
Infect is not going away, not sure why you guys think so
Infect was designed to prey on decks that don't want to interact
Burn should be back to tier 1 with these announcements
I think you summed it up pretty well. I'm fully expecting Infect to continue bending me over a barrel anytime I go up against it with Bogles. It might take an extra turn, but the result will be the same.
I was definitely wrong in thinking Probe was a safe card. I can see why it was banned. Though I still feel other cards were far worse offenders.
That being said, I think overall this was a fine announcement. I assume the next one in March will come with some unbans (doubt we will see more bans).
The anger at this announcement is unusually overblown and unwarranted, even considering the general Modern outcry at such changes. Although there are definitely some legitimately scary elements of the ban update, most people are complaining about elements that are totally fine, or even heartening.
The GGT ban is perfectly fine. It keeps the deck a top-tier contender without leaving it a Tier 1 mainstay. This lets other GY decks return (remember old faithful Abzan Company?) and lets everyone free up SB slots to fight other decks. The "scary" part about this ban is that it's a reversal of a previous ban, which is unprecedented but not really that scary. I'm fine with companies and organizations changing their minds based on new realities. In these regards, the GGT ban gets top marks from me.
Probe ban gets a B-. Yes, it's effective at taking a little bit off the top of most fast decks without killing any of them outright. In that regard, it's a solid A. Unfortunately, it does this at the expense of very fair Delver decks, which were great for format health. That's C-, unintended consequence ban territory. More importantly, these kinds of silly bans just underscore Modern's problems: WHERE THE HECK ARE OUR GENERIC ANSWERS AND POLICING CARDS/STRATEGIES?? You don't see these absurd bans in Legacy because the format has internal regulation from cards, not external regulations from bans. I'm not saying we need Legacy's exact answers, but we do need answers and we needed them a year ago. Push is a good step in the right direction, but it can't be the final step. If we don't get these kinds of cards, we'll keep stomaching more corner-case bans like Probe and keep inciting even more ban mania and format instability.
So, if the bans themselves aren't that terrible, what's the real problem?
The problem is the update itself. It doesn't cite tournament finishes, doesn't refer back to format guidelines and rules, doesn't anticipate objections to the bans, and overall doesn't build format confidence. It looked like the article was thrown together in less than an hour, when I'm sure Wizards did mountains of testing and analysis before deciding on some of those bans. If Wizards communicated this to their audience, people wouldn't be so up in arms about these changes. Especially if they threw us a bone about how they want to see how the new format shakes out before deciding on possible unbans. That would have been great! Instead, we got a very elementary update with extremely basic reasons. No wonder people are upset: Wizards hasn't done anything to try and build confidence after a big banlist shakeup.
I hope we get some clarification in the coming weeks. I'm sick and tired of delving through AMAs and Twitter posts to figure out Wizards' banlist policy and process. This lack of transparency makes it very difficult to advocate on behalf of the format and entice players to join. With ban mania everywhere, it's hard to stay evidence-based and level-headed, particularly when Wizards doesn't give us any tools to help that fight.
I actually thought there's going to be an uptick of Delve creatures like Tasigur and Gurmag. Fatal Push was the card to slow down Infect, Kiln Fiend, Death Shadow decks. I don't feel there was a reason to ban G. Probe when an answer was right at the doorsteps.
As for dredge, I never saw a problem especially when it was solved with G/W Tron eating them alive left and right.
What these bans feel like is wizards are catering to people that scream they aren't able to beat a deck because they refuse to adapt their old decklist to combat the new metagame. I have seen zero Yixlid Jailers, Graftdigger's Cages, Extirpates, Wheel of Sun and Moon, etc to help fight things off.
So what are we arguing about? Having some degree of hate is a good thing. And RiP is the best gravehate there is. If we want mainboard gravehate, the only other option is to unban a few cards like Deathrite Shaman and Green Sun's Zenith. And I can't approve of that.
GGT ban doesn't exactly destroy dredge so that's okay, but I think some unbans would have been better.
The anger at this announcement is unusually overblown and unwarranted, even considering the general Modern outcry at such changes. Although there are definitely some legitimately scary elements of the ban update, most people are complaining about elements that are totally fine, or even heartening.
The GGT ban is perfectly fine. It keeps the deck a top-tier contender without leaving it a Tier 1 mainstay. This lets other GY decks return (remember old faithful Abzan Company?) and lets everyone free up SB slots to fight other decks. The "scary" part about this ban is that it's a reversal of a previous ban, which is unprecedented but not really that scary. I'm fine with companies and organizations changing their minds based on new realities. In these regards, the GGT ban gets top marks from me.
Probe ban gets a B-. Yes, it's effective at taking a little bit off the top of most fast decks without killing any of them outright. In that regard, it's a solid A. Unfortunately, it does this at the expense of very fair Delver decks, which were great for format health. That's C-, unintended consequence ban territory. More importantly, these kinds of silly bans just underscore Modern's problems: WHERE THE HECK ARE OUR GENERIC ANSWERS AND POLICING CARDS/STRATEGIES?? You don't see these absurd bans in Legacy because the format has internal regulation from cards, not external regulations from bans.
What about the Gitaxian Probe ban? They didn't even pay lip service to killing off lower-tier decks with the banning. And their reasoning for all of the bans was really weak compared to previous bans.
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Modern RGTron UGInfect URStorm WUBRAd Nauseam BRGrishoalbrand URGScapeshift WBGAbzan Company WUBRGAmulet Titan BRGLiving End WGBogles
The anger at this announcement is unusually overblown and unwarranted, even considering the general Modern outcry at such changes. Although there are definitely some legitimately scary elements of the ban update, most people are complaining about elements that are totally fine, or even heartening.
The GGT ban is perfectly fine. It keeps the deck a top-tier contender without leaving it a Tier 1 mainstay. This lets other GY decks return (remember old faithful Abzan Company?) and lets everyone free up SB slots to fight other decks. The "scary" part about this ban is that it's a reversal of a previous ban, which is unprecedented but not really that scary. I'm fine with companies and organizations changing their minds based on new realities. In these regards, the GGT ban gets top marks from me.
Probe ban gets a B-. Yes, it's effective at taking a little bit off the top of most fast decks without killing any of them outright. In that regard, it's a solid A. Unfortunately, it does this at the expense of very fair Delver decks, which were great for format health. That's C-, unintended consequence ban territory. More importantly, these kinds of silly bans just underscore Modern's problems: WHERE THE HECK ARE OUR GENERIC ANSWERS AND POLICING CARDS/STRATEGIES?? You don't see these absurd bans in Legacy because the format has internal regulation from cards, not external regulations from bans.
What about the Gitaxian Probe ban? They didn't even pay lip service to killing off lower-tier decks with the banning. And their reasoning for all of the bans was really weak compared to previous bans.
Sorry, the post wasn't finished when you quoted it. Had some posting issues; the final version talks about the weak reasoning.
I'm less concerned about Wizards failing to address Probe's impact on decks like Storm. I can't expect them to test a ban's impact on every Tier 3 or lower deck, and I think some of those "killed decks" aren't as killed as many believe. But I can definitely expect them to articulate their reasoning at all. The article totally failed to draw on tournament finishes, format guidelines, ban policies, etc. It didn't address possible fears and didn't mention other Modern articles and updates to that time. It just reads like it was thrown together in the hour before publication, and that frightens me as a Modern player. Something so important needs more thought and effort put into its release and publication.
The anger at this announcement is unusually overblown and unwarranted, even considering the general Modern outcry at such changes. Although there are definitely some legitimately scary elements of the ban update, most people are complaining about elements that are totally fine, or even heartening.
The GGT ban is perfectly fine. It keeps the deck a top-tier contender without leaving it a Tier 1 mainstay. This lets other GY decks return (remember old faithful Abzan Company?) and lets everyone free up SB slots to fight other decks. The "scary" part about this ban is that it's a reversal of a previous ban, which is unprecedented but not really that scary. I'm fine with companies and organizations changing their minds based on new realities. In these regards, the GGT ban gets top marks from me.
Probe ban gets a B-. Yes, it's effective at taking a little bit off the top of most fast decks without killing any of them outright. In that regard, it's a solid A. Unfortunately, it does this at the expense of very fair Delver decks, which were great for format health. That's C-, unintended consequence ban territory. More importantly, these kinds of silly bans just underscore Modern's problems: WHERE THE HECK ARE OUR GENERIC ANSWERS AND POLICING CARDS/STRATEGIES?? You don't see these absurd bans in Legacy because the format has internal regulation from cards, not external regulations from bans.
What about the Gitaxian Probe ban? They didn't even pay lip service to killing off lower-tier decks with the banning. And their reasoning for all of the bans was really weak compared to previous bans.
Sorry, the post wasn't finished when you quoted it. Had some posting issues; the final version talks about the weak reasoning.
I'm less concerned about Wizards failing to address Probe's impact on decks like Storm. I can't expect them to test a ban's impact on every Tier 3 or lower deck, and I think some of those "killed decks" aren't as killed as many believe. But I can definitely expect them to articulate their reasoning at all. The article totally failed to draw on tournament finishes, format guidelines, ban policies, etc. It didn't address possible fears and didn't mention other Modern articles and updates to that time. It just reads like it was thrown together in the hour before publication, and that frightens me as a Modern player. Something so important needs more thought and effort put into its release and publication.
Their reason for banning probe was as succinct and to the point as it gets...and correct. I don't see how tournament reports are necessary when they are addressing how the card influences gameplay.
You mentioned the Delver deck above. It runs 17 lands and essentially 56 cards b/c Probe enables such a composition to be viable when normally it would not.
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FREE MODERN. Break the Standard link.
I play Magic: the Gathering, not Magic: the Commandering.
The anger at this announcement is unusually overblown and unwarranted, even considering the general Modern outcry at such changes. Although there are definitely some legitimately scary elements of the ban update, most people are complaining about elements that are totally fine, or even heartening.
The GGT ban is perfectly fine. It keeps the deck a top-tier contender without leaving it a Tier 1 mainstay. This lets other GY decks return (remember old faithful Abzan Company?) and lets everyone free up SB slots to fight other decks. The "scary" part about this ban is that it's a reversal of a previous ban, which is unprecedented but not really that scary. I'm fine with companies and organizations changing their minds based on new realities. In these regards, the GGT ban gets top marks from me.
Probe ban gets a B-. Yes, it's effective at taking a little bit off the top of most fast decks without killing any of them outright. In that regard, it's a solid A. Unfortunately, it does this at the expense of very fair Delver decks, which were great for format health. That's C-, unintended consequence ban territory. More importantly, these kinds of silly bans just underscore Modern's problems: WHERE THE HECK ARE OUR GENERIC ANSWERS AND POLICING CARDS/STRATEGIES?? You don't see these absurd bans in Legacy because the format has internal regulation from cards, not external regulations from bans. I'm not saying we need Legacy's exact answers, but we do need answers and we needed them a year ago. Push is a good step in the right direction, but it can't be the final step. If we don't get these kinds of cards, we'll keep stomaching more corner-case bans like Probe and keep inciting even more ban mania and format instability.
So, if the bans themselves aren't that terrible, what's the real problem?
The problem is the update itself. It doesn't cite tournament finishes, doesn't refer back to format guidelines and rules, doesn't anticipate objections to the bans, and overall doesn't build format confidence. It looked like the article was thrown together in less than an hour, when I'm sure Wizards did mountains of testing and analysis before deciding on some of those bans. If Wizards communicated this to their audience, people wouldn't be so up in arms about these changes. Especially if they threw us a bone about how they want to see how the new format shakes out before deciding on possible unbans. That would have been great! Instead, we got a very elementary update with extremely basic reasons. No wonder people are upset: Wizards hasn't done anything to try and build confidence after a big banlist shakeup.
I hope we get some clarification in the coming weeks. I'm sick and tired of delving through AMAs and Twitter posts to figure out Wizards' banlist policy and process. This lack of transparency makes it very difficult to advocate on behalf of the format and entice players to join. With ban mania everywhere, it's hard to stay evidence-based and level-headed, particularly when Wizards doesn't give us any tools to help that fight.
The issues that surround this announcement are twofold.
First, like you identified, there aren't good answers in Modern which is a direct result of Wizards not printing good answers at any point in the last five years, (after they announced Modern and had some time to see how it looked) because good answer have to flow through Standard, which is our kicking whelp on this forum more often then not. Especially with Wizards staunch refusal to print the things Modern needs. These bans, specifically Probe, really are a sore thumb that drags this fact further into the light. You consider the cards that are banned. How does Probe measure up to Skullclamp? Jace the Mind Sculptor? It simply doesn't and is evidence of a truly sick and broken format, which nobody wants.
Second, statistically, dredge is on the downswing. People were adapting, and it was showing. Was dredge pushing Company out of the format? Sure. But that isn't what Wizards said. Wizards statement implies that sideboard lotteries are bad, which in turn means every Modern deck must be answered by creature removal or discard, because that is the only acceptable (Wizards approved) way to play magic. This forced axis of interaction between players is ultimately unhealthy for the format, and the game, and further promotes the idea of a format that can't stand on its own.
It's all very simple, as you explained in your Legacy comparison. Combo > Agro > Control > Combo. Modern is without Combo or Control and we are living in the result of that.
THIS 100X!!! If you don't agree with this then there is no amount of logic that will ever convince you that good, non-oppressive, combos should be allowed. If you don't agree with it then just don't play this game, and you certainly shouldn't feel entitled to make any comment on ban lists ever.
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This is an awful suggestion
Jund and Junk can survive any ban except for two cards, Goyf and Liliana of the Veil. If you ban either of those cards, Jund and Junk absolutely die on the spot. Why the hell even play a fair deck?
If LOTV or Goyf get banned, I'm absolutely cashing out of modern and out of Magic altogether and just play videogames as a side hobby instead
What the hell is LOTV doing that's so broken? She can't be slotted into every deck, she's 3 of, which is what a lot of decks don't want to go past, mana wise
She is absolutely worthless against swarm creature decks, and she's not good enough to win on her own against big ramp decks
I have no clue why anyone would choose to play a fair deck in the green black colors if you can't play goyf or Lilly, at that point, I'd rather play a *****ty blue deck that gets crapped on by a bunch of other decks in the format
I don't know why, but your crappy post definitely hit a nerve and put me in a bad mood, I think probably because we have a bunch of scrubs crying for bans instead of unbanning cards
We need safety valves, not banning public enemy number one. Some bans are correct, like POD, Treasure cruise/DDT, MAYBE Twin
We can't even say, "get this deck, it's a safe investment".
Enough people like you cry hard enough, and I'm actually worried that they would ban a card like LOTV
Seriously, soon we're going to see either Ravager/Mox opal banned, Ancient Stirrings, all of it
If Lantern ever see's tier 1 status for 8 months, I'd start worrying about an Ensnaring Bridge ban
That phrase really bothers me, because it implies that in order to play in this format, you need to pay up for some very specific things.
I'm hoping that this shakes up the format enough that people have to come up with new decks, and that net-decking might die down for a bit, at least until the next big Modern tournament where people will, doubtless, start copying the pros.
Brewing season is the best season.
Standard:
GMono-Green CountersG
Modern:
URStormUR
XMyr OverflowX
BWBlack-White TokensBW
EDH:
WUGrand Arbiter Augustine's Spell DenialWU
WGRhys's TokensWG
RKrenko's CommandR
Point the second: People do not want Bans, unless they will be given back unbans in turn. That is what would have taken some of the sting off this.
Frankly, I think most see why these ban's needed, or at the very least COULD BE ARGUED, to happen. What should have taken place after, is freeing SFM, Preordain, and Twin.
Then, we could have seen what would happen to the format.
Spirits
Yes it will slow down the dredge deck. Those two cards is sometimes a life line. And to be able to play 6/6 regen over cage is something. The thug will dredge for 4 alittle short on the dredge part and alot shorter on the threat part... now cage will really kill a dredge deck if goes un answered on early turns.
Heres hoping they get make a -better than peek- functional reprint.
UR Niv-Mizzet, The Firemind
WUR Narset's Coinflip Casino
Modern
UB Mill
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
Or just more of the same old Infect etc.?
WUBRG Humans
BRW Mardu Pyromancer
UW UW "Control"
UR Blue Moon
Ugin laughs at your swarm decks so hard. There is no reason to play White in Tron with Dredge on the DL.
Infect was designed to prey on decks that don't want to interact
Burn should be back to tier 1 with these announcements
this ban announcement is a huge step in the wrong direction. their pasts bans were all predictable, and followed very strict patterns. sure, you never REALLY knew, but if you followed the patterns you could have a very strong idea. the cards banned today literally fit ZERO criteria for ban. removing the pro tour was supposed to cause wizards to ban stuff less frequently, yet here we are 1 year later, and they are banning cards for LESS REASON then they were with the pro tour? this ban season was literally filled with terrible articles by pro's whining about card x or card y, its like they cherry picked their ban announcement from those articles rather than using the data and numbers they always have, and this is reflected upon in the article (really? those explanations were weak, just look at the twin ban announcement then look at this one). we really needed a period of unbans and no bans purely to quell the banmania so rampant in the format and to restore player confidence. every time they ban a card, some % of the owners of that deck leave the format/game forever, they can solve these problems without hurting the playerbase. instead, they listen to whining butthurt pro articles that are really more clickbait ads than real articles and continue this banmania fueled discussion of the format.
that being said, i really do believe these bans are in fact good for the format in a pure balance standpoint. they nerf the decks running them without killing them (if you think the probe ban killed your deck, you are either heavily overestimating how important this card is or your deck is living proof the card needed to go) and they nerf the decks that were "problems" in the format. this sets an interesting new precedent, as in the past wizards just nuked decks altogether in the format instead of just nerfing them. i could get behind this new approach to the banlist, as long as they are not like this one. i dont want to see cards banned just because they are good cards, i want to see cards banned that nerf decks that are oppressive. things like banning deceiver exarch instead of twin, or banning eye of ugin instead of eye and temple. the important thing is that they should not be just "well the formats a bit too aggro-y, lets hit probe" and much more "well splinter twin decks ticked criteria x, so what can we take away that just nerfs it a bit"
overall, my confidence level for the format is basically 0 as a result of this. if we do not see some meaningful unbans in 5 weeks, i do not know if i will continue playing the format. tbh, if come april they do not have plans for ways to add cards outside of standard to fix moderns problems outside of bans, i dont think i will be able to play the format anymore. they just keep banning all of these cool, unique decks. i was watching one of the old pro tours a few days ago, watched a twin vs pod match and felt straight up sad that both of these entities just dont exist anymore due to bans. not arguing that these bans were not correct but its just rough seeing the format you have loved for so long get ripped apart, and watch wizards singlehandedly ruin the attitudes of the entire playerbase
UWRjeskai nahiri UWR
UBRgrixis titi UBR
UBRgrixis delverUBR
UR ur kikimite UR
EDH
RUG Riku of Two Reflections RUG
UBR Marchesa, the Black Rose UBR
UBRGYidris, Maelstrom Wielder UBRG
UBRJeleva, Nephalia's ScourgeUBR
As for dredge, I never saw a problem especially when it was solved with G/W Tron eating them alive left and right.
What these bans feel like is wizards are catering to people that scream they aren't able to beat a deck because they refuse to adapt their old decklist to combat the new metagame. I have seen zero Yixlid Jailers, Graftdigger's Cages, Extirpates, Wheel of Sun and Moon, etc to help fight things off.
Modern Tallowisp Spirits - A Modern Tallowisp Deck UW
Eldrazi Ninjas - Summoning Octopus Jutsu YYYYAAAHHHH!
STANDARD
Naban Wizards
Kinda disappointed not to see an unban, but I suspect they don't want to do bans and unbans at the same time unless forced, since it makes for wildly unpredictable metagame shifts and no real firm idea of cause and effect.
I expect a wildly popular unban next time.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
well you obviously are not looking then
http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=14407&f=MO
deck that just won the modern MOCS. 4 maindeck gy hate cards and 2 more in the side
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/tournament/competitive-modern-league-2017-01-09#online
40% of the decks in this league running rest in peace in them (thats just the most recent one, didnt cherry pick)
people were absolutely packing hate for the deck
UWRjeskai nahiri UWR
UBRgrixis titi UBR
UBRgrixis delverUBR
UR ur kikimite UR
EDH
RUG Riku of Two Reflections RUG
UBR Marchesa, the Black Rose UBR
UBRGYidris, Maelstrom Wielder UBRG
UBRJeleva, Nephalia's ScourgeUBR
I see the logic in banning probe, I even agree with it, but I'm sad for the reasons you listed
We were all really excited to see push combat these decks, and it was the right move
We need unbans though, I don't want to see all these decks that do cool things die off. I'm a Gbx player but I don't want the format to be a bunch of midrange creature decks
Sigh. Guess we will be seeing stirrings, moxie Opal or plating and God knows what else soon
I'd love cards to be introduced without having to filter through standard
Standard has devolved into big dumb creatures and superfriend decks
I'm unhappy about no unbans, but I'm going to be really upset if there's no big unban in March, unless the format is flourishing
If we were to use the commonly used car analogy that gets tossed around then I'd argue that Wizards has looked at these decks and banned the headlights. Git. Probe did exactly what Wizards stated it did, and while the banning does seem a bit arbitrary as a glance, when you consider what Probe allowed these decks to do (freely enable an overwhelming all in method play) it starts to make sense.
At the risk of going too deep with the analogies, I'll use one last one--Git. Probe created a sort of "insider information" scenario that benefited 2 already very powerful decks. And there's a reason why we've outlawed insider trading, it's just not copicetic with what Wizards (and many players) wants from the format.
While I fully understand the perspective that Become Immense is, in many eyes, the bannable card, I think you have to consider what made it so. Git. Probe was that enabler.
That's just my reading of the situation.
Hmmm, Preordain?
I think you summed it up pretty well. I'm fully expecting Infect to continue bending me over a barrel anytime I go up against it with Bogles. It might take an extra turn, but the result will be the same.
Link to Discord server where anybody from MTGS can keep up with thread topics while everything is being sorted out with the new site.
I'd guess stoneforge or jace. Preordain while cool is not going to be popular in the traditional sense.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
That being said, I think overall this was a fine announcement. I assume the next one in March will come with some unbans (doubt we will see more bans).
RUG Temur Deprive Delver
BUG Sultai Deprive Delver
The GGT ban is perfectly fine. It keeps the deck a top-tier contender without leaving it a Tier 1 mainstay. This lets other GY decks return (remember old faithful Abzan Company?) and lets everyone free up SB slots to fight other decks. The "scary" part about this ban is that it's a reversal of a previous ban, which is unprecedented but not really that scary. I'm fine with companies and organizations changing their minds based on new realities. In these regards, the GGT ban gets top marks from me.
Probe ban gets a B-. Yes, it's effective at taking a little bit off the top of most fast decks without killing any of them outright. In that regard, it's a solid A. Unfortunately, it does this at the expense of very fair Delver decks, which were great for format health. That's C-, unintended consequence ban territory. More importantly, these kinds of silly bans just underscore Modern's problems: WHERE THE HECK ARE OUR GENERIC ANSWERS AND POLICING CARDS/STRATEGIES?? You don't see these absurd bans in Legacy because the format has internal regulation from cards, not external regulations from bans. I'm not saying we need Legacy's exact answers, but we do need answers and we needed them a year ago. Push is a good step in the right direction, but it can't be the final step. If we don't get these kinds of cards, we'll keep stomaching more corner-case bans like Probe and keep inciting even more ban mania and format instability.
So, if the bans themselves aren't that terrible, what's the real problem?
The problem is the update itself. It doesn't cite tournament finishes, doesn't refer back to format guidelines and rules, doesn't anticipate objections to the bans, and overall doesn't build format confidence. It looked like the article was thrown together in less than an hour, when I'm sure Wizards did mountains of testing and analysis before deciding on some of those bans. If Wizards communicated this to their audience, people wouldn't be so up in arms about these changes. Especially if they threw us a bone about how they want to see how the new format shakes out before deciding on possible unbans. That would have been great! Instead, we got a very elementary update with extremely basic reasons. No wonder people are upset: Wizards hasn't done anything to try and build confidence after a big banlist shakeup.
I hope we get some clarification in the coming weeks. I'm sick and tired of delving through AMAs and Twitter posts to figure out Wizards' banlist policy and process. This lack of transparency makes it very difficult to advocate on behalf of the format and entice players to join. With ban mania everywhere, it's hard to stay evidence-based and level-headed, particularly when Wizards doesn't give us any tools to help that fight.
So what are we arguing about? Having some degree of hate is a good thing. And RiP is the best gravehate there is. If we want mainboard gravehate, the only other option is to unban a few cards like Deathrite Shaman and Green Sun's Zenith. And I can't approve of that.
GGT ban doesn't exactly destroy dredge so that's okay, but I think some unbans would have been better.
Modern Tallowisp Spirits - A Modern Tallowisp Deck UW
Eldrazi Ninjas - Summoning Octopus Jutsu YYYYAAAHHHH!
STANDARD
Naban Wizards
What about the Gitaxian Probe ban? They didn't even pay lip service to killing off lower-tier decks with the banning. And their reasoning for all of the bans was really weak compared to previous bans.
RGTron
UGInfect
URStorm
WUBRAd Nauseam
BRGrishoalbrand
URGScapeshift
WBGAbzan Company
WUBRGAmulet Titan
BRGLiving End
WGBogles
Sorry, the post wasn't finished when you quoted it. Had some posting issues; the final version talks about the weak reasoning.
I'm less concerned about Wizards failing to address Probe's impact on decks like Storm. I can't expect them to test a ban's impact on every Tier 3 or lower deck, and I think some of those "killed decks" aren't as killed as many believe. But I can definitely expect them to articulate their reasoning at all. The article totally failed to draw on tournament finishes, format guidelines, ban policies, etc. It didn't address possible fears and didn't mention other Modern articles and updates to that time. It just reads like it was thrown together in the hour before publication, and that frightens me as a Modern player. Something so important needs more thought and effort put into its release and publication.
Their reason for banning probe was as succinct and to the point as it gets...and correct. I don't see how tournament reports are necessary when they are addressing how the card influences gameplay.
You mentioned the Delver deck above. It runs 17 lands and essentially 56 cards b/c Probe enables such a composition to be viable when normally it would not.
I play Magic: the Gathering, not Magic: the Commandering.
The issues that surround this announcement are twofold.
First, like you identified, there aren't good answers in Modern which is a direct result of Wizards not printing good answers at any point in the last five years, (after they announced Modern and had some time to see how it looked) because good answer have to flow through Standard, which is our kicking whelp on this forum more often then not. Especially with Wizards staunch refusal to print the things Modern needs. These bans, specifically Probe, really are a sore thumb that drags this fact further into the light. You consider the cards that are banned. How does Probe measure up to Skullclamp? Jace the Mind Sculptor? It simply doesn't and is evidence of a truly sick and broken format, which nobody wants.
Second, statistically, dredge is on the downswing. People were adapting, and it was showing. Was dredge pushing Company out of the format? Sure. But that isn't what Wizards said. Wizards statement implies that sideboard lotteries are bad, which in turn means every Modern deck must be answered by creature removal or discard, because that is the only acceptable (Wizards approved) way to play magic. This forced axis of interaction between players is ultimately unhealthy for the format, and the game, and further promotes the idea of a format that can't stand on its own.
It's all very simple, as you explained in your Legacy comparison. Combo > Agro > Control > Combo. Modern is without Combo or Control and we are living in the result of that.