You should not be able to look at your opponents hand for zero mana.
You shouldn't be able to generate an additional mana every turn by an artifact that costs 0.
You shouldn't be able to generate mana through an uncounterable abiity of a card, at instant speed.
You shouldn't be able to generate 2 mana off a land for a creature type.
You shouldn't be able to generate 7 mana on turn 3 and escalating towards 10 from that point.
There's a lot of thing wrong in this format. The fact is that WOTC pays attention to what they want, and lack transparency. Probe is broken, so are other 10 cards in the format. Banning cards can be dangerous and it can sprial down very fast.
You should not be able to look at your opponents hand for zero mana.
You shouldn't be able to generate an additional mana every turn by an artifact that costs 0.
You shouldn't be able to generate mana through an uncounterable abiity of a card, at instant speed.
You shouldn't be able to generate 2 mana off a land for a creature type.
You shouldn't be able to generate 7 mana on turn 3 and escalating towards 10 from that point.
There's a lot of thing wrong in this format. The fact is that WOTC pays attention to what they want, and lack transparency. Probe is broken, so are other 10 cards in the format. Banning cards can be dangerous and it can sprial down very fast.
but you say that like it is a zero sum game. you cannot ban 30 cards in the same announcement. on the whole they are going the right direction one piece at a time. this was an unfair thing and it is banned. GOOD. If those other things also need to go at some point so be it.
Really surprised at preordain not getting unbanned. It seems like it's super safe now that probe is banned. I almost expect it to be unbanned in march at this point.
idk about that. cantrips, especially in blue, help combo more than they help fair decks?
Combo just lost probe....
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On mtgsalvation people don't want to discuss ideas, so I give people something else to discuss: my controversial opinions.
You should not be able to look at your opponents hand for zero mana.
You shouldn't be able to generate an additional mana every turn by an artifact that costs 0.
You shouldn't be able to generate mana through an uncounterable abiity of a card, at instant speed.
You shouldn't be able to generate 2 mana off a land for a creature type.
You shouldn't be able to generate 7 mana on turn 3 and escalating towards 10 from that point.
There's a lot of thing wrong in this format. The fact is that WOTC pays attention to what they want, and lack transparency. Probe is broken, so are other 10 cards in the format. Banning cards can be dangerous and it can sprial down very fast.
Banning cards can conversely be very good for the format, and in this case I think these bans are pointing the format in the right direction.
I also think the Gitaxian Probe ban might pave the way for a Preordain unban, as the biggest reasons against it were for fast combo decks, but those just took a hit.
Overall really excited for the format, and I seriously doubt all the Tron doomsaying as it still has natural checks (and you can just use the space freed up from your dredge hate for Tron if you're scared).
Banning Probe AND printing Fatal Push straight up kills off like 5-6 decks.
Wizards gives no f***s.
Which 5?
TiTi, Infect, ~3 Bloo Variants, Suicide Zoo, UR Storm
thus slowing the game down, your point?
wizards does not care about our wallets, they care about the health/speed of the format, and in this case, they did well.
My point?
Ban mania is real.
No deck is safe.
Wizards doesn't care about you, or your investments.
what tier 1 deck is ever safe? there's a bigger picture here. even ive faced bans of cards ive owned ,but for the better of the game, I eventaully agreed on them.
this game is not an investment, its a game, that needs to be balanced.
You should not be able to look at your opponents hand for zero mana.
You shouldn't be able to generate an additional mana every turn by an artifact that costs 0.
You shouldn't be able to generate mana through an uncounterable abiity of a card, at instant speed.
You shouldn't be able to generate 2 mana off a land for a creature type.
You shouldn't be able to generate 7 mana on turn 3 and escalating towards 10 from that point.
There's a lot of thing wrong in this format. The fact is that WOTC pays attention to what they want, and lack transparency. Probe is broken, so are other 10 cards in the format. Banning cards can be dangerous and it can sprial down very fast.
they only start paying attention when such broken decks are tier 1, and are overly effecting the overall enjoyment of the game.
Or they could make the banlist alot smaller by having control actually have answers to these dumb threats and do its job. Instead of it being a joke deck.
The modern meta is actually MISSING a part and everyone knows it and they just dont support it, so instead the banned list is pretending to be a police control deck.
Thank you. I am in shock after seeing the bans (in both formats even though I give two *****s about Standard). Yet I am glad that someone had the guts to say it.
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
I still think become immense was the real culprit, but I imagine BI will be reduced to a 2 of, and Death shadow may honestly die between probe and push.
I'm not super angry, but I am annoyed that I keep buying combo decks on the side of my jund/junk deck to fight the likes of Tron and other unfair combos, and it keeps getting banned. I just want a side piece that doesn't get ***** on by ramp decks, and no, burn doesn't tickle my fancy, and Tron is an exceptionally boring deck to play
Its also kind of worth noting that the fair decks that never or rarely get banned are also the ones that tend to be the most expensive.
Jund is the most expensive deck by a margin and has been the target for the second most bans after Storm. Birthing Pod was mostly fair (it dropped the combo towards the end) and got banned, and it was a pretty expensive deck as well. I really don't see a bias towards the fair decks, and definately not towards or against deck prices.
How is the Probe ban reasonable? With the printing of Fatal Push those "T3 win" decks would have too many problems to stay T1. Also, Probe ban hurts delver lists, who were the bane of those 3 decks and could be aggressive enough to handle Tron and/or Valakut decks.
If they really wanted to hurt the Turn 2-3 wins they should've cut Become Immense, since Delve is by itself broken.
Probe is casting a sorcery free version of peek. It takes a lot of the skill out of playing these super fast decks by just getting information for basically free while filling up graveyards for become immense. I really don't feel bad that super fast decks actually have to THINK before they cast their stuff now.
Most of Infect's and Suicide Zoo's godhands were irrelevant of Probe, fetches and growths filled their Graveyards and enabled those 1 mana Become Immenses. With the printing of Push they should've waited with ANY bans on those aggressive decks, since probe or not 8 pieces of 1 mana removal from most interactive decks is too much to handle.
And I'll repeat myself: Become Immense is the real problem not Probe or Growth. With the probe ban the're gutting delver decks that are by design interactive decks.
Why not just wait and see how Fatal Push effects things.
To just drop the 1-2 blow and eliminate ~5 decks from the format outright, just seems a little intense, and over reacting to me...
Print new cards to help the format. Don't just ban everything out of the format.
thing is, when you have to nerf something that is too fast for the game, sometimes there is splash damage. in such a diverse meta ,this is unavoidable unfortunately.
You don't call "dying to removal" if the removal is more expensive in resources than the creature. If you have to spend BG (Abrupt Decay), or W + basic land (PtE) to remove a 1G, that is not "dying to removal". Strictly speaking Goyf dies to removal, but actually your removal is dying to Goyf.
Troll ban surprises me only because they unbanned it. I wish they didn't, but I'm not surprised.
Probe ban was one I predicted a while ago, and not one I myself took all that seriously. I think it is simply clear that phyrexian mana was a mistake, similar to delve.
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Level 1 Judge
"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
You don't call "dying to removal" if the removal is more expensive in resources than the creature. If you have to spend BG (Abrupt Decay), or W + basic land (PtE) to remove a 1G, that is not "dying to removal". Strictly speaking Goyf dies to removal, but actually your removal is dying to Goyf.
they only start paying attention when such broken decks are tier 1, and are overly effecting the overall enjoyment of the game.
Players who loathe Tron and Lantern Control don't agree with you on your second point.
I think what upsets people is that nearly any other change would have been better than this. What do I know? I'm just a dumb Magic player, a sheep. I don't work at WotC. Here's 3 scenarios that I will think of in 2 minutes that would have been better than what they did.
Scenario 1. - no unbans or bans.
Scenario 2. - unban Preordain and Stoneforge Mystic.
Scenario 3. - unban Green Sun's Zenith and Chrome Mox.
Get it? Even a Dark Depths ******* unban would have been better IMO than this. And don't get me started on the bans in a format that I don't even like. Yet, I have friends who spent money on Standard cards...
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
Dredge drops to tier 2 or 3, infect drops down to tier 2 between the probe ban and fatal push being released, burn is relatively absent, but also negatively impacted by push
How is Tron not the clear-cut winner? Tron just saw 3 of it's major decks get knocked down a peg
Tron is will absolutely be hitting tier 1 in the next couple of months, and be very formidable
Tron has been tier 1 in the past. It will just get countered once again back to tier 2.
thus slowing the game down, your point?
wizards does not care about our wallets, they care about the health/speed of the format, and in this case, they did well.
decks playing:
none
Death and Taxes
Pauper
UB Teachings
Tortured Existence
Murasa Tron
Modern
Pod (RIP)
Bloom(RIP)
Merfolk
You shouldn't be able to generate an additional mana every turn by an artifact that costs 0.
You shouldn't be able to generate mana through an uncounterable abiity of a card, at instant speed.
You shouldn't be able to generate 2 mana off a land for a creature type.
You shouldn't be able to generate 7 mana on turn 3 and escalating towards 10 from that point.
There's a lot of thing wrong in this format. The fact is that WOTC pays attention to what they want, and lack transparency. Probe is broken, so are other 10 cards in the format. Banning cards can be dangerous and it can sprial down very fast.
My point?
Ban mania is real.
No deck is safe.
Wizards doesn't care about you, or your investments.
a glistener ban would have been too harsh probably
decks playing:
none
but you say that like it is a zero sum game. you cannot ban 30 cards in the same announcement. on the whole they are going the right direction one piece at a time. this was an unfair thing and it is banned. GOOD. If those other things also need to go at some point so be it.
Combo just lost probe....
Decks I'm playing in Modern right now:
URB Grixis Reveler (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-grixis-reveler/)
UB Faeries (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/ub-fae-2/)
UW Azorious Control (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-ojutai-control-2/)
Banning cards can conversely be very good for the format, and in this case I think these bans are pointing the format in the right direction.
I also think the Gitaxian Probe ban might pave the way for a Preordain unban, as the biggest reasons against it were for fast combo decks, but those just took a hit.
Overall really excited for the format, and I seriously doubt all the Tron doomsaying as it still has natural checks (and you can just use the space freed up from your dredge hate for Tron if you're scared).
what tier 1 deck is ever safe? there's a bigger picture here. even ive faced bans of cards ive owned ,but for the better of the game, I eventaully agreed on them.
this game is not an investment, its a game, that needs to be balanced.
decks playing:
none
they only start paying attention when such broken decks are tier 1, and are overly effecting the overall enjoyment of the game.
decks playing:
none
To just drop the 1-2 blow and eliminate ~5 decks from the format outright, just seems a little intense, and over reacting to me...
Print new cards to help the format. Don't just ban everything out of the format.
Thank you. I am in shock after seeing the bans (in both formats even though I give two *****s about Standard). Yet I am glad that someone had the guts to say it.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)I'm not super angry, but I am annoyed that I keep buying combo decks on the side of my jund/junk deck to fight the likes of Tron and other unfair combos, and it keeps getting banned. I just want a side piece that doesn't get ***** on by ramp decks, and no, burn doesn't tickle my fancy, and Tron is an exceptionally boring deck to play
Jund is the most expensive deck by a margin and has been the target for the second most bans after Storm. Birthing Pod was mostly fair (it dropped the combo towards the end) and got banned, and it was a pretty expensive deck as well. I really don't see a bias towards the fair decks, and definately not towards or against deck prices.
My Modern Decks:
BGWAbzan MidrangeWGB
UWRJeskai NahiriRWU
BRUGrixis ControlURB
I think the rumors of decks demise are greatly over exaggerated...
Twitter: twitter.com/axmanonline
Stream: twitch.tv/axman
Current Decks
Modern: Affinity
Standard: BW Control
Legacy: Death and Taxes :symw::symr:
Vintage: NA
Most of Infect's and Suicide Zoo's godhands were irrelevant of Probe, fetches and growths filled their Graveyards and enabled those 1 mana Become Immenses. With the printing of Push they should've waited with ANY bans on those aggressive decks, since probe or not 8 pieces of 1 mana removal from most interactive decks is too much to handle.
And I'll repeat myself: Become Immense is the real problem not Probe or Growth. With the probe ban the're gutting delver decks that are by design interactive decks.
thing is, when you have to nerf something that is too fast for the game, sometimes there is splash damage. in such a diverse meta ,this is unavoidable unfortunately.
decks playing:
none
He should. Infect is still a strong deck even without Probe. The deck can either run Groundswell, or even go all-in Pact of Negation route.
"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
Probe ban was one I predicted a while ago, and not one I myself took all that seriously. I think it is simply clear that phyrexian mana was a mistake, similar to delve.
"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
Players who loathe Tron and Lantern Control don't agree with you on your second point.
I think what upsets people is that nearly any other change would have been better than this. What do I know? I'm just a dumb Magic player, a sheep. I don't work at WotC. Here's 3 scenarios that I will think of in 2 minutes that would have been better than what they did.
Scenario 1. - no unbans or bans.
Scenario 2. - unban Preordain and Stoneforge Mystic.
Scenario 3. - unban Green Sun's Zenith and Chrome Mox.
Get it? Even a Dark Depths ******* unban would have been better IMO than this. And don't get me started on the bans in a format that I don't even like. Yet, I have friends who spent money on Standard cards...
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)Tron has been tier 1 in the past. It will just get countered once again back to tier 2.
Good. Probe was busted. Grave Troll has been busted for more than a decade. Later.
This doesn't even kill any decks, it just brings them into the power level sphere of the rest of the modern meta.