If blue's modern card pool gets better, delver is a really good choice. Btter cantrips would help, but i think that wasteland and stifle would make a very potent delver deck, that would help to keep in check a lot of strategies, without the need of unbanning twin or jace or something like that
Delver with both wasteland and stifle would be oppressive more so than legacy. The average cmc in modern is higher than legacy. I rather have a good combo control deck that is not so oppressive.
Cheeri0's is a deck that is easy to beat if you interact with them. Infect the same. the only decks you pointed out that actually attempt to strictly do a similar thing are Goyro's and Storm and those are currently no where near as consistent as the Twin combo. Cheeri0's and Infect actually force you play magic you need to interact with them to beat them. Twin had 2 dedicated hate cards and was still better than the hate because of the 3 hate cards only one was good enough to run main deck.
You're such an unbelievable hypocrite, dude. Cheeri0s and Infect are fine because you can beat them by interacting with them? What exactly do you think beat Twin? Twin's worst matchups were all the interactive decks in the format. And Twin couldn't win before turn 4, whereas decks like Infect, UR Battle Rage, and especially Cheeri0s can win regularly on turn 3, and sometimes on turn 2. And there were tons of maindeckable cards that were good against Twin. Spellskite, hand disruption, LotV, creature removal, Abrupt Decay, counterspells. These are all maindeckable things that were good against Twin. And then in your sideboard you can bring in hosers like Choke, Boil, Rending Volley, Nature's Claim, Rakdos Charm, Torpor Orb, and the new Authority of the Consuls if it's ever unbanned.
The prison decks you pointed to are all much easier to beat than the Twin Combo and that is why they are far less played. You want to beat a Blood Moon deck, fetch up some basics, Lantern Control is also easily beaten by most of the same tools used to beat affinity. Not being hypocritical Blood Moon its self doesn't make it so that you cannot play the game, it punishes greedy mana bases if your running 24 lands and Blood Moon shuts your deck down that is really your fault, perfect mana is not a given in the game no matter how pampered you have been. Twin demands that you simply cannot play anything because you will instantly lose, you will not have a chance to draw out of it like against Blue Moon (which is why that deck kind of sucks). Its funny that you point to CoCo Company as on twins level of broken it is good but it can just wiff, if I tap out on 3 to commit a threat and you go pestermite untap Twin you are not going to wiff.
So if we're going by how easy decks are to beat, then we need to ban every deck that had a higher overall win percentage than Twin, because that clearly means they are harder to beat than Twin. So that means we're banning Bant Company, Death Shadow Aggro, Jeskai Control, Naya Zoo, Affinity, Elves, Soul Sisters, Bogles, and Merfolk. All these decks need something banned from them because they all had higher win percentages than Twin when MTGGoldfish did their analysis of 28k games of Modern a little over a year ago.
And your argument against Twin was that it made you wait until you had enough mana to hold up removal before casting your creatures or whatever else, effectively taxing your mana. What do you think Blood Moon does? Blood Moon stops you from casting your spells because it screws up your mana fixing. Chalice of the Void stops you from casting your spells by countering them. Lantern Control just doesn't let you have relevant spells. These forms of taxing your mana and what spells you can play are totally fine, but Twin making you represent removal is not? And if you're tapping out on 3 to play a threat when you know or suspect you're playing against Twin, then you made a bad play and don't deserve to win that game. It's like tapping out when your opponent has a Blighted Agent across the board. It's a bad play and you can't be mad if you get killed for making it.
Just admit it dude, you just don't like the deck. I could at least respect your opinion of not liking the deck for personal reasons, but every argument you've ever made against Twin in these threads has been really weak and hypocritical when you're fine with other decks that do the exact same things that you complain about Twin for. You don't need to come up with bull*****, just say you don't want the deck back because you don't like it.
No cheeri0s essential components all die to the most common removal spells. This is not True for Twin. DSjund is a deck that is easy to combat with common removal (it only did as good as it did at 1 torny because it was off the radar most players probably thought it was dead post probe banning).
Your list of main deck worthy cards only points to the fact that BGx decks are the only decks with real answers against Twin. Counterspells that is a joke, what other U deck was worth even playing while Twin was legal? None that is exactly why I played Twin, You could build other blue decks to beat twin and then lose to every other type of deck or vise versa. Also the Side board options didn't do anything to help because it became a gamble of did the Twin player sideboard out the combo and thus invalidate your post sideboard plan
Blood Moon does not lock players out of the game in the way that Twin did, if you fetched basics etc.. Twin just kills you for playing the game. Blood Moon punishes players for having greedy mana bases and attempting to run multiple cards that are designed to be hard to splash with heavy color investments. Twin just shuts down other fair decks that are not BGx. Blood Moon often folds to 1-2 basic lands fetched which is easy to do in modern. If players are running 24-25 lands and get wrecked by a Blood Moon then they designed a bad mana base. Perhaps in Standard Magic you can expect to run mono non-basics and be fine but Modern has a card pool that runs make over decade and these types of affects have existed in Magic for the vast majority of the game.
The idea that Twin would do anything to stop the hyper aggressive kill you as fast as possible decks is also a joke because they are exactly the types of decks that would get a bigger push. Going under Twin has always been a legit strategy and Twin did nothing to stop people from playing decks like Infect it was Pod that hindered all of the super fast combo/aggro decks main deck anti infect hate with built in infinite life combo kept those decks bad when you could expect to face Pod 1 out of 4 match ups.
I Played Twin, I got burnt on the ban I bought a playset of foil Splinter Twins literally the night before the ban was announced (so I lost out on effectively 8 cards in terms of cost value) But the deck was format warping, any time anything else would get printed that might make a URx deck that isn't Twin viable I would get it try it out and like Tasigur it turned out that it was just better to try and fit it in your Twin deck. You can like something and see that it wasn't a good thing to actually have around and that is what Twin was. It stifled the amount of decks that are viable to be played in the format, WotC has stated that is a goal for modern as a format it needs to stay banned to keep that aspect of modern.
Twin is a infinite combo, it wasn't and never was fair magic. Its the kind of infinite combo that has no risk vs reward factor when deck building. Cheeri0's is good but sometimes they draw nothing but crappy equipment and lose.
Also don't claim I stated something and then go on to argue with yourself as though I stated it, it is really just childish.
(btw , in that 50 card list you have 5 removal spells that outright kill twin, 2 discard spells, cryptic for the bounce, revelry... and this is without twin even being a deck.)
Pod proves your statement about "bans that are supposed to shape and level the playing field, but none of them have actually worked" statement is completely wrong, while Pod was legal no other value creature decks existed in any competitive sense.
What does Pod prove? That we have the same damn menace with Collected Company now? How about Goryo's Vengeance? How about Through the Breach? What's the actual difference when we have decks that kill you turn 3 anyway? Why are you being so selective where you think some decks deserve a banning and others not?
This banned list is completely arbitrary, and yes for me personally Birthing Pod pushes the line of being a broken card in the Modern format. Yet at the same time, we never had any decent blue consistency cards unbanned to try and keep Pod in check.
It's definitely one of the cards I think deserves a second chance in a format that isn't being arbitrarily sculpted, based on people who complain because they suck at Magic.
Yes because the only creature based deck in Modern right now is Collected Company? Pod invalidated every other creature based strategy. Collected Company doesn't is it very good in most other creature based decks likely but it doesn't make a meta game where a player simply cannot play zoo, naya, or whatever other flavor of creature based decks because they just lose to CoCo deck X and that is what pod did. I wasn't comparing it to Goryo's Vengeance or Through the Breach for one simple reason those are dedicated Combo decks Pod was a Value Creature deck that was able to run 2 infinite loop combo's which it could just search up, so you get to run all the best value creatures and then have 1-2 copies of your combo kill option.
If WotC wants Modern to have as many viable decks as possible then Pod was a great ban. Pro players and GP grinders didn't like its banning for the same reason that they didn't like Twins banning, it opened up multiple decks to be viable play options and that is bad for people who want to spike a torny.
(btw , in that 50 card list you have 5 removal spells that outright kill twin, 2 discard spells, cryptic for the bounce, revelry... and this is without twin even being a deck.)
Revelry is a sideboard card and it is bad against Twin for the same reason that the 2 non-counterable anti-twin spells where bad, they will just sideboard out of the combo and then you are running x amount of spells that are just dead draws, or you don't board them and they keep the combo it was the same type of sideboard lottery that people complain about regarding decks like dredge.
And like I said BGx decks where the only decks that had a naturally good game against Twin because they where the only decks running discard, Decay, and path.
Yep not having to run Rending Volley/Torpor Orb/Hushwing Gryff/Spellskite in the sb of various decks has opened space that was previously devoted to Twin. Sure, those cards have some cross-applicability (not unlike sb cards for dredge like grafdigger's cage/surgical extraction), but their disappearance from sideboards when twin was banned is telling. Not sure that is a great reason to keep a card banned, but it is worth considering the additional stress on sideboards.
Keep in mind that unleashing twin now is a powered up twin, with access to ancestral vision and sword of the meek combo should it want.
Anyone have thoughts about Twin + sword of the meek? Is that at tool that twin could use?
Keep in mind that unleashing twin now is a powered up twin, with access to ancestral vision and sword of the meek combo should it want.
Anyone have thoughts about Twin + sword of the meek? Is that at tool that twin could use?
Would actually be pretty sick. Quite similar to the old extended thopter+depths. You will have 2 completely separate packages that win the game differently and are interacted with differently. Outside of abrupt decay (surprise surprise) and Qasali Pridemage, there's almost nothing main-deckable that deals with both of these.
The main downside would be that 12-15 or so cards have to be dedicated to these packages.
Guys please opinions on japanese cards. Lost a 3/3 creature against Japan celestial colonade. This guy played all creatures and spells in english cards, but some cards in his manabase was japanese. I dont registrated this really ( my brain say its all fine and all english to me lets attack his empty board)...and i am sure it is a Kind of legal cheating. It is not ok, but i know legal. I Hate such people. I never forget colonade normally, but with this Tricks it can happen one time in 3 years and such people take advantage of this
If I am a customer spending premium amount of dollars, I expect a premium service. Jund falls into the category of a premium deck costing more dollars than a majority of the rest of the format. I'm not getting the desired performance ratio per dollars spent out of the Jund deck because WOTC decided to make the format more diverse.
(btw , in that 50 card list you have 5 removal spells that outright kill twin, 2 discard spells, cryptic for the bounce, revelry... and this is without twin even being a deck.)
Revelry is a sideboard card and it is bad against Twin for the same reason that the 2 non-counterable anti-twin spells where bad, they will just sideboard out of the combo and then you are running x amount of spells that are just dead draws, or you don't board them and they keep the combo it was the same type of sideboard lottery that people complain about regarding decks like dredge.
And like I said BGx decks where the only decks that had a naturally good game against Twin because they where the only decks running discard, Decay, and path.
Revelry is actually superb against Twin, a deck that frequently had haymakers like Batterskull and Blood Moon in the side in addition to running and an enchantment-based combo and Spellskite to protect it. Did you play Modern when the deck was legal?
Keep in mind that unleashing twin now is a powered up twin, with access to ancestral vision and sword of the meek combo should it want.
Anyone have thoughts about Twin + sword of the meek? Is that at tool that twin could use?
Would actually be pretty sick. Quite similar to the old extended thopter+depths. You will have 2 completely separate packages that win the game differently and are interacted with differently. Outside of abrupt decay (surprise surprise) and Qasali Pridemage, there's almost nothing main-deckable that deals with both of these.
The main downside would be that 12-15 or so cards have to be dedicated to these packages.
What makes you think Twin would cut 8 great cards to splash a package that hasn't had hardly any success in Modern and doesn't help its bad matchup (in fact, it makes them worse) when the deck in its pure form was banned from Modern for winning too much?
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
What makes you think Twin would cut 8 great cards to splash a package that hasn't had hardly any success in Modern and doesn't help its bad matchup (in fact, it makes them worse) when the deck in its pure form was banned from Modern for winning too much?
Being able to attack the game at different angles is pretty good. Like how Abzan company can win by killing with creatures or assemble a combo.
The way I was looking at it isn't taking whatever stock twin list and removing 6 cards and replacing them with foundry and swords. I'm looking at it in a way that the deck is built around using both of these together, maybe incorporating cards like thirst for knowledge.
Something like
4 exarch
1 pestermite
3 twin
4 snapcaster
4 bolt
4 serum visions
3 foundry
2 sword
22 lands
which still leaves 13 slots to work with.
Whether something like that would really be better than stock twin or not, who could really say ? Like 90% of the stuff posted in this thread, is theory and conjecture.
Guys please opinions on japanese cards. Lost a 3/3 creature against Japan celestial colonade. This guy played all creatures and spells in english cards, but some cards in his manabase was japanese. I dont registrated this really ( my brain say its all fine and all english to me lets attack his empty board)...and i am sure it is a Kind of legal cheating. It is not ok, but i know legal. I Hate such people. I never forget colonade normally, but with this Tricks it can happen one time in 3 years and such people take advantage of this
If I am a customer spending premium amount of dollars, I expect a premium service. Jund falls into the category of a premium deck costing more dollars than a majority of the rest of the format. I'm not getting the desired performance ratio per dollars spent out of the Jund deck because WOTC decided to make the format more diverse.
Attacking from different angles is only "good" if those angles are competent. Bolt-Snap-Bolt? Competent angle. Twin on an Exarch? Competent angle. Thopter-Sword? We know this angle to be incompetent, so splashing it is not "good."
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
Attacking from different angles is only "good" if those angles are competent. Bolt-Snap-Bolt? Competent angle. Twin on an Exarch? Competent angle. Thopter-Sword? We know this angle to be incompetent, so splashing it is not "good."
I am just making the assertion that we can have ideas, or make educated guesses but at the end of the day nobody really knows what's good or not. Eg, a lot of people were saying big mana decks would be out in force, which turned out to be true. But nobody expected Death Shadow Jund to have such a good showing, or had lantern control down to win a GP.
I'm not going to argue with you or anyone whether Twin+thopters would be bad or good or format breaking, it's purely conjecture. I was just replying to a post with a thought I entertained. But ok enough of that.
We know thopter-sword is incompetent in the way it's been used in the format so far. And we know what impact twin had to the modern format when it was legal. But the format is different now and the card pool has grown.
So based on that. Why not unban twin ? Maybe twin is better with the current card pool ? Maybe the current format is more hostile to twin ? Who knows for sure ?
There are more ban list updates so errors can be rectified more often, WOTC has also demonstrated that they are willing to re-ban a card.
Like I said previously
At this point, I welcome any bans or unbans that WOTC decides to go with as long as they have the balls to reverse their decision if they're wrong. Unban Jace ? Sure, if it does turn out to be oppressive , re-ban it. Doesn't matter who spent how much money on buying Jaces. If it turns out fine ? Well, that's great then.
Guys please opinions on japanese cards. Lost a 3/3 creature against Japan celestial colonade. This guy played all creatures and spells in english cards, but some cards in his manabase was japanese. I dont registrated this really ( my brain say its all fine and all english to me lets attack his empty board)...and i am sure it is a Kind of legal cheating. It is not ok, but i know legal. I Hate such people. I never forget colonade normally, but with this Tricks it can happen one time in 3 years and such people take advantage of this
If I am a customer spending premium amount of dollars, I expect a premium service. Jund falls into the category of a premium deck costing more dollars than a majority of the rest of the format. I'm not getting the desired performance ratio per dollars spent out of the Jund deck because WOTC decided to make the format more diverse.
Question, why do people keep insisting that we need a good uRx deck? I do get the desire for blue to be stronger in the format, and I agree with it completely, but why Red? Bolt-Snap-Bolt is a great play, but it's not really what Blue is about. I have been working on a uB deck and it's actually quite controlling, just a pile of discard, cantrips, Delvers and counters with Snap, and Bob when i can afford it, keeping the other player helpless until Delver beats them, or I flip Thing in the Ice. People keeping talking about Twin, but Thing is a great, great finisher for blue, if Twin were unbanned, I would keep playing Thing. I do want Blue to have new toys and be represented in the format, same as white, I just don't understand why people insist on Red?
I personally don't care whether it's URx or UXx. I just want a Tier 1 blue-based reactive deck in the format. This kind of deck is both a good internal safety measure against other less fair strategies, and an important pillar of previous Modern seasons that has been conspicuously absent for 6+ months now.
As for those who want URx strategies, I believe this arises from the Twin ban update itself. There, Wizards talked about how Twin supplanted other Jeskai and Temur strategies, suggesting those other URx strategies would become viable after Twin got banned. That never happened for a sustained period of time and it hasn't been happening at all since late summer 2016, so the Twin ban failed in that regard.
Preordain is still the clear unban target for addressing these issues. JTMS is fine, because it does help reactive blue and not other strategies, but not great, because it doesn't really address the archetype's major weaknesses (inability to find answers, "good" matchups not being as positive as the bad matchups are negative, win conditions that quickly turn the corner, etc.).
I cannot think of any other option than twin that helps reactive blue decks in this regard.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
Anyway thats the main thing, people are unquestionably thinking of Twin when they say UR, also UR looks amazing on the table, its one of the most beautiful decks in existence, but thats just a personal thing I get hung up on.
I would invite you to take a gander at a foil esper charm sometime my friend =P
But on a more serous note, I will unabashedly display my own bias and echo the sentiment "why Red must be blue's savor?" I realize that yes, Twin is currently the only card on the banned list that would give blue these free wins, but I would rather see reprints or new cards introduced that were strong mono blue options. Not necessarily to give rise to a mono blue deck, but just so that they could go into whatever color combination people choose to run. Disallow was...interesting, but obviously not good enough for modern. I won't bother suggesting a hypothetical bit of counter magic, as plenty of others have already effortlessly posted completely fair, playable spells that they probably cooked up in 35 seconds that would pass through standard with ease while wizards was too busy dropping the ball.
No cheeri0s essential components all die to the most common removal spells. This is not True for Twin.
Lol, what? Did you ever actually play with or against Twin, or are you just repeating something someone told you? The combo creatures died to all the removal in the format with the exception of Exarch not dying to a single Bolt. If they do the swap ban that I think they should do, most of us would play Temur colors, where all the combo creatures die to Bolt.
Your list of main deck worthy cards only points to the fact that BGx decks are the only decks with real answers against Twin. Counterspells that is a joke, what other U deck was worth even playing while Twin was legal? None that is exactly why I played Twin, You could build other blue decks to beat twin and then lose to every other type of deck or vise versa. Also the Side board options didn't do anything to help because it became a gamble of did the Twin player sideboard out the combo and thus invalidate your post sideboard plan
Every deck had answers against Twin because every deck can play Dismember. And remember, Spellskite was the most played creature in Modern when Twin was legal, so there's another main deck answer every deck can play. And you seem to forget that Grixis Control was a tier 1 deck with Twin legal, and both Grixis Delver and Jeskai Control were tier 2. You don't have to "build other blue decks to beat Twin," they naturally beat Twin because they were better control decks. And what "sideboard plan" are you even using against Twin as a control deck? You just keep playing your control game. If they don't side out the combo you can still just blow them out by killing their creature in response to Twin, which is why Twin pretty much always sided out the combo and tried to fight on the control axis to give them a better chance.
Blood Moon does not lock players out of the game in the way that Twin did, if you fetched basics etc.. Twin just kills you for playing the game.
Blood Moon absolutely does lock you out of playing the game, that's the whole point of the card. Sure, sometimes you can see it coming and fetch some basics, but sometimes you don't see it coming and can't play any more spells for the rest of the game, or sometimes you can't get all your colors in time or don't have the fetches to find basics.
Just to put it in perspective, my best friend, who I do most of my paper playing with, hates Blood Moon and gets salty when I play it against him. On the other hand, he loved playing against Twin and has been asking me to put Twin back together for casual play.
The idea that Twin would do anything to stop the hyper aggressive kill you as fast as possible decks is also a joke because they are exactly the types of decks that would get a bigger push. Going under Twin has always been a legit strategy and Twin did nothing to stop people from playing decks like Infect
Yeah, this pretty much confirms that you have no idea what you're talking about. Twin was favored against the linear aggressive decks because they could disrupt them in the first couple turns and then kill them as early as turn 4 if the linear decks didn't run any removal. How would adding a deck back into the format that had a universal good matchup against linear aggro give these decks a "bigger push?" Explain that logic to me.
It stifled the amount of decks that are viable to be played in the format, WotC has stated that is a goal for modern as a format it needs to stay banned to keep that aspect of modern.
Name one deck that wasn't viable when Twin was around that's seeing top tier play now, not including decks that became viable because of new cards printed. Just one deck.
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern UBR Grixis Shadow UBR UR Izzet Phoenix UR UW UW Control UW GB GB Rock GB
Commander BG Meren of Clan Nel Toth BG BGUW Atraxa, Praetor's Voice BGUW
Revelry is a sideboard card and it is bad against Twin for the same reason that the 2 non-counterable anti-twin spells where bad, they will just sideboard out of the combo and then you are running x amount of spells that are just dead draws, or you don't board them and they keep the combo it was the same type of sideboard lottery that people complain about regarding decks like dredge.
And like I said BGx decks where the only decks that had a naturally good game against Twin because they where the only decks running discard, Decay, and path.
Revelry is actually superb against Twin, a deck that frequently had haymakers like Batterskull and Blood Moon in the side in addition to running and an enchantment-based combo and Spellskite to protect it. Did you play Modern when the deck was legal?
Along with that point, Rending Volley and Abrupt Decay were never dead against Twin like he's claiming because even if they sided out the combo they were still going to play blue creatures that died to both of these spells.
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern UBR Grixis Shadow UBR UR Izzet Phoenix UR UW UW Control UW GB GB Rock GB
Commander BG Meren of Clan Nel Toth BG BGUW Atraxa, Praetor's Voice BGUW
(btw , in that 50 card list you have 5 removal spells that outright kill twin, 2 discard spells, cryptic for the bounce, revelry... and this is without twin even being a deck.)
Revelry is a sideboard card and it is bad against Twin for the same reason that the 2 non-counterable anti-twin spells where bad, they will just sideboard out of the combo and then you are running x amount of spells that are just dead draws, or you don't board them and they keep the combo it was the same type of sideboard lottery that people complain about regarding decks like dredge.
And like I said BGx decks where the only decks that had a naturally good game against Twin because they where the only decks running discard, Decay, and path.
Revelry is actually superb against Twin, a deck that frequently had haymakers like Batterskull and Blood Moon in the side in addition to running and an enchantment-based combo and Spellskite to protect it. Did you play Modern when the deck was legal?
Yes I have played Modern since the formats birth and I had Twin since day one, most of the cards I had from extended. You completely ignored the part in which I pointed out the reality of how when you are on Twin you are likely siding out the combo, and pointing out the fact that Twin can side in what are arguably main deck able things to begin with Revelry, and rending volley and the other Twin hate was ineffective. WotC realized this and it is comparable to Dredge in that I need to side heavily to beat Twin I need multiple SB slots dedicated to just that deck and they might just SB in a way that renders my SB plan useless if not just causing you to have SB'ed multiple dead cards. Even dredge couldn't put that kind of stress on the value of how you SB they couldn't just SB out of being a GY deck.
Yep not having to run Rending Volley/Torpor Orb/Hushwing Gryff/Spellskite in the sb of various decks has opened space that was previously devoted to Twin. Sure, those cards have some cross-applicability (not unlike sb cards for dredge like grafdigger's cage/surgical extraction), but their disappearance from sideboards when twin was banned is telling. Not sure that is a great reason to keep a card banned, but it is worth considering the additional stress on sideboards.
Torpor Orb had lost a lot of popularity well before the Twin ban. It was played because it was powerful against Twin and Pod, but once Pod got banned it became less impressive. I don't think Hushwing Gryff ever saw that much play to begin with. Spellskite might have seen a dip, but it's actually still a pretty common sideboard card today, with some running it maindeck. I'll give you Rending Volley.
Keep in mind that unleashing twin now is a powered up twin, with access to ancestral vision and sword of the meek combo should it want.
Anyone have thoughts about Twin + sword of the meek? Is that at tool that twin could use?
Seems pretty bad. You'd need to bring out a lot of useful cards to make room for the new combo and that weakens the deck. You'd have to basically just drop the tempo plan to make room for it and be more of an all-in combo deck, and if you're going to do that it feels like you'd be better off going back to those All-In Twin builds because at least your added combo pieces will have synergy with the old ones (i.e. if you go back to running some copies of Kiki-Jiki, that'll combo with a Deceiver Exarch, but a Sword of the Meek won't).
There's the obvious comparison to the ThopterDepths deck in Extended that ran the HexDepths and ThopterSword combo together and was very powerful because they required totally different answers, but there's a bit more crossover in answers against ThopterTwin and also HexDepths was much faster (especially when the deck was running Chrome Mox).
WraithPK is right on many of these points. I'm not going to say twin wasn't the best, it was, but plenty of people demonstrate in this thread with regularity that they don't understand twin, how the deck played, or never played it themselves.
Yes I have played Modern since the formats birth and I had Twin since day one, most of the cards I had from extended.
I really don't believe you that you played Twin since Modern's inception because almost everything you say about the deck is completely wrong, and all of us who actually did play with it or against it can clearly tell you have no idea what you're talking about.
You completely ignored the part in which I pointed out the reality of how when you are on Twin you are likely siding out the combo, and pointing out the fact that Twin can side in what are arguably main deck able things to begin with Revelry, and Rending Volley and the other Twin hate was ineffective.
And you completely ignored the part where he explained how you're wrong about Destructive Revelry. If Twin was siding out the combo, they were most likely siding in Blood Moon, Batterskull, and sometimes something like Dragon's Claw against Burn, all of which are good targets for Destructive Revelry. You also ignored the part where I said that Volley was never dead against Twin because they were always going to play blue creatures that it would have targets for.
WotC realized this and it is comparable to Dredge in that I need to side heavily to beat Twin I need multiple SB slots dedicated to just that deck and they might just SB in a way that renders my SB plan useless if not just causing you to have SB'ed multiple dead cards. Even dredge couldn't put that kind of stress on the value of how you SB they couldn't just SB out of being a GY deck.
No, it's not comparable at all, you really don't understand the sideboard lottery argument that WotC made to justify the Grave Troll banning. You can beat Twin with tons of maindeckable cards. Hand disruption, removal, Spellskites, and counterspells are all good ways to fight Twin. You don't have to have Rending Volley or other narrow answers in your sideboard to fight Twin, people just did it because Twin was a popular archetype and there are very good hosers for it, so it was worth it to run a couple of them. Dredge, on the other hand, does not have good maindeckable ways to fight it. It's a creature swarm deck that makes your removal bad. So you absolutely did have to have 2-4 pieces of graveyard hate in your sideboard to stand any chance, and then you had to draw them. Or you just had to play a faster deck and go under them, since they played minimal interaction.
And Twin's sideboarding was completely predictable. If you're playing GBx or some other deck that makes it almost impossible for them to combo, you can safely assume they are going to side out almost all of the combo, maybe just keeping one copy of Twin, and side into Blood Moon, Keranos, Batterskull, Teferi, Roast, and Jace AoT. If you're playing a fast linear deck, you can safely assume they won't side out the combo at all. It's pretty easy to know if the Twin combo is good against your deck or not, and make the right sideboarding predictions about what they will do.
WraithPK is right on many of these points. I'm not going to say twin wasn't the best, it was, but plenty of people demonstrate in this thread with regularity that they don't understand twin, how the deck played, or never played it themselves.
Thanks. And yeah, I'm not even saying that Twin wasn't the best deck in 2015. I think it was, but it wasn't this oppressive unbeatable tier 0 juggernaut that people like Bizzycola and others on these threads try to make it out to be. Twin, in my opinion, was the best deck, but not by a clear margin. If it had been clearly the best deck without any bad matchups it would have reached historic metagame share levels that have gotten decks banned in the past, in the 20+ range. As it was, it wasn't even more played than the GBx decks when it got banned.
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Modern UBR Grixis Shadow UBR UR Izzet Phoenix UR UW UW Control UW GB GB Rock GB
Commander BG Meren of Clan Nel Toth BG BGUW Atraxa, Praetor's Voice BGUW
On a different note, after having seen a lot of the new Death's Shadow and after testing I am convinced that Traverse The Ulvenwald is a Green Sun's Zenith in this deck.
I so badly want to enter MTGO with this deck, but I just do not know. I am super convinced it's one of the best decks I have ever seen in Modern. Its consistency is in broken levels certainly with an insane Traverse in power level, and a crazy 8 cyclers that help you deploy your DS as well and letting you play a small amount of lands as a result and still rarely flooding out, or getting screwed.
Here's an interesting thought: are we starting to get into a territory where Green is becoming as dominant as Blue was in the early days of Magic? Green has the best creatures, which they should, but they also have the best cantrip in Modern, the best tutors, the best sources of card advantage, and even the best removal when paired with black. While blue and red have seen their slices of the color pie weakened and reduced, it seems like green has been really pushed for the last 4 or 5 sets.
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Commander BG Meren of Clan Nel Toth BG BGUW Atraxa, Praetor's Voice BGUW
WraithPK is right on many of these points. I'm not going to say twin wasn't the best, it was, but plenty of people demonstrate in this thread with regularity that they don't understand twin, how the deck played, or never played it themselves.
excatly. I played interactive decks and never found twin broken when I faced it. maybe these people are playing linear decks and just dont like losing to twins policing ability?
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Delver with both wasteland and stifle would be oppressive more so than legacy. The average cmc in modern is higher than legacy. I rather have a good combo control deck that is not so oppressive.
No cheeri0s essential components all die to the most common removal spells. This is not True for Twin. DSjund is a deck that is easy to combat with common removal (it only did as good as it did at 1 torny because it was off the radar most players probably thought it was dead post probe banning).
Your list of main deck worthy cards only points to the fact that BGx decks are the only decks with real answers against Twin. Counterspells that is a joke, what other U deck was worth even playing while Twin was legal? None that is exactly why I played Twin, You could build other blue decks to beat twin and then lose to every other type of deck or vise versa. Also the Side board options didn't do anything to help because it became a gamble of did the Twin player sideboard out the combo and thus invalidate your post sideboard plan
Blood Moon does not lock players out of the game in the way that Twin did, if you fetched basics etc.. Twin just kills you for playing the game. Blood Moon punishes players for having greedy mana bases and attempting to run multiple cards that are designed to be hard to splash with heavy color investments. Twin just shuts down other fair decks that are not BGx. Blood Moon often folds to 1-2 basic lands fetched which is easy to do in modern. If players are running 24-25 lands and get wrecked by a Blood Moon then they designed a bad mana base. Perhaps in Standard Magic you can expect to run mono non-basics and be fine but Modern has a card pool that runs make over decade and these types of affects have existed in Magic for the vast majority of the game.
The idea that Twin would do anything to stop the hyper aggressive kill you as fast as possible decks is also a joke because they are exactly the types of decks that would get a bigger push. Going under Twin has always been a legit strategy and Twin did nothing to stop people from playing decks like Infect it was Pod that hindered all of the super fast combo/aggro decks main deck anti infect hate with built in infinite life combo kept those decks bad when you could expect to face Pod 1 out of 4 match ups.
I Played Twin, I got burnt on the ban I bought a playset of foil Splinter Twins literally the night before the ban was announced (so I lost out on effectively 8 cards in terms of cost value) But the deck was format warping, any time anything else would get printed that might make a URx deck that isn't Twin viable I would get it try it out and like Tasigur it turned out that it was just better to try and fit it in your Twin deck. You can like something and see that it wasn't a good thing to actually have around and that is what Twin was. It stifled the amount of decks that are viable to be played in the format, WotC has stated that is a goal for modern as a format it needs to stay banned to keep that aspect of modern.
Twin is a infinite combo, it wasn't and never was fair magic. Its the kind of infinite combo that has no risk vs reward factor when deck building. Cheeri0's is good but sometimes they draw nothing but crappy equipment and lose.
Also don't claim I stated something and then go on to argue with yourself as though I stated it, it is really just childish.
Yeah... dunno, something like path... its a really obscure removal spell, its only the second most played in modern...
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/format-staples/modern/full/spells
(btw , in that 50 card list you have 5 removal spells that outright kill twin, 2 discard spells, cryptic for the bounce, revelry... and this is without twin even being a deck.)
Yes because the only creature based deck in Modern right now is Collected Company? Pod invalidated every other creature based strategy. Collected Company doesn't is it very good in most other creature based decks likely but it doesn't make a meta game where a player simply cannot play zoo, naya, or whatever other flavor of creature based decks because they just lose to CoCo deck X and that is what pod did. I wasn't comparing it to Goryo's Vengeance or Through the Breach for one simple reason those are dedicated Combo decks Pod was a Value Creature deck that was able to run 2 infinite loop combo's which it could just search up, so you get to run all the best value creatures and then have 1-2 copies of your combo kill option.
If WotC wants Modern to have as many viable decks as possible then Pod was a great ban. Pro players and GP grinders didn't like its banning for the same reason that they didn't like Twins banning, it opened up multiple decks to be viable play options and that is bad for people who want to spike a torny.
Revelry is a sideboard card and it is bad against Twin for the same reason that the 2 non-counterable anti-twin spells where bad, they will just sideboard out of the combo and then you are running x amount of spells that are just dead draws, or you don't board them and they keep the combo it was the same type of sideboard lottery that people complain about regarding decks like dredge.
And like I said BGx decks where the only decks that had a naturally good game against Twin because they where the only decks running discard, Decay, and path.
Keep in mind that unleashing twin now is a powered up twin, with access to ancestral vision and sword of the meek combo should it want.
Anyone have thoughts about Twin + sword of the meek? Is that at tool that twin could use?
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG
Would actually be pretty sick. Quite similar to the old extended thopter+depths. You will have 2 completely separate packages that win the game differently and are interacted with differently. Outside of abrupt decay (surprise surprise) and Qasali Pridemage, there's almost nothing main-deckable that deals with both of these.
The main downside would be that 12-15 or so cards have to be dedicated to these packages.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
Being able to attack the game at different angles is pretty good. Like how Abzan company can win by killing with creatures or assemble a combo.
The way I was looking at it isn't taking whatever stock twin list and removing 6 cards and replacing them with foundry and swords. I'm looking at it in a way that the deck is built around using both of these together, maybe incorporating cards like thirst for knowledge.
Something like
4 exarch
1 pestermite
3 twin
4 snapcaster
4 bolt
4 serum visions
3 foundry
2 sword
22 lands
which still leaves 13 slots to work with.
Whether something like that would really be better than stock twin or not, who could really say ? Like 90% of the stuff posted in this thread, is theory and conjecture.
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
I am just making the assertion that we can have ideas, or make educated guesses but at the end of the day nobody really knows what's good or not. Eg, a lot of people were saying big mana decks would be out in force, which turned out to be true. But nobody expected Death Shadow Jund to have such a good showing, or had lantern control down to win a GP.
I'm not going to argue with you or anyone whether Twin+thopters would be bad or good or format breaking, it's purely conjecture. I was just replying to a post with a thought I entertained. But ok enough of that.
We know thopter-sword is incompetent in the way it's been used in the format so far. And we know what impact twin had to the modern format when it was legal. But the format is different now and the card pool has grown.
So based on that. Why not unban twin ? Maybe twin is better with the current card pool ? Maybe the current format is more hostile to twin ? Who knows for sure ?
There are more ban list updates so errors can be rectified more often, WOTC has also demonstrated that they are willing to re-ban a card.
Like I said previously
I cannot think of any other option than twin that helps reactive blue decks in this regard.
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Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
I would invite you to take a gander at a foil esper charm sometime my friend =P
But on a more serous note, I will unabashedly display my own bias and echo the sentiment "why Red must be blue's savor?" I realize that yes, Twin is currently the only card on the banned list that would give blue these free wins, but I would rather see reprints or new cards introduced that were strong mono blue options. Not necessarily to give rise to a mono blue deck, but just so that they could go into whatever color combination people choose to run. Disallow was...interesting, but obviously not good enough for modern. I won't bother suggesting a hypothetical bit of counter magic, as plenty of others have already effortlessly posted completely fair, playable spells that they probably cooked up in 35 seconds that would pass through standard with ease while wizards was too busy dropping the ball.
Lol, what? Did you ever actually play with or against Twin, or are you just repeating something someone told you? The combo creatures died to all the removal in the format with the exception of Exarch not dying to a single Bolt. If they do the swap ban that I think they should do, most of us would play Temur colors, where all the combo creatures die to Bolt.
Every deck had answers against Twin because every deck can play Dismember. And remember, Spellskite was the most played creature in Modern when Twin was legal, so there's another main deck answer every deck can play. And you seem to forget that Grixis Control was a tier 1 deck with Twin legal, and both Grixis Delver and Jeskai Control were tier 2. You don't have to "build other blue decks to beat Twin," they naturally beat Twin because they were better control decks. And what "sideboard plan" are you even using against Twin as a control deck? You just keep playing your control game. If they don't side out the combo you can still just blow them out by killing their creature in response to Twin, which is why Twin pretty much always sided out the combo and tried to fight on the control axis to give them a better chance.
Blood Moon absolutely does lock you out of playing the game, that's the whole point of the card. Sure, sometimes you can see it coming and fetch some basics, but sometimes you don't see it coming and can't play any more spells for the rest of the game, or sometimes you can't get all your colors in time or don't have the fetches to find basics.
Just to put it in perspective, my best friend, who I do most of my paper playing with, hates Blood Moon and gets salty when I play it against him. On the other hand, he loved playing against Twin and has been asking me to put Twin back together for casual play.
This is actually the opposite of the truth. You either have no idea what you're talking about or you're being woefully dishonest.
Yeah, this pretty much confirms that you have no idea what you're talking about. Twin was favored against the linear aggressive decks because they could disrupt them in the first couple turns and then kill them as early as turn 4 if the linear decks didn't run any removal. How would adding a deck back into the format that had a universal good matchup against linear aggro give these decks a "bigger push?" Explain that logic to me.
Name one deck that wasn't viable when Twin was around that's seeing top tier play now, not including decks that became viable because of new cards printed. Just one deck.
UBR Grixis Shadow UBR
UR Izzet Phoenix UR
UW UW Control UW
GB GB Rock GB
Commander
BG Meren of Clan Nel Toth BG
BGUW Atraxa, Praetor's Voice BGUW
Along with that point, Rending Volley and Abrupt Decay were never dead against Twin like he's claiming because even if they sided out the combo they were still going to play blue creatures that died to both of these spells.
UBR Grixis Shadow UBR
UR Izzet Phoenix UR
UW UW Control UW
GB GB Rock GB
Commander
BG Meren of Clan Nel Toth BG
BGUW Atraxa, Praetor's Voice BGUW
Yes I have played Modern since the formats birth and I had Twin since day one, most of the cards I had from extended. You completely ignored the part in which I pointed out the reality of how when you are on Twin you are likely siding out the combo, and pointing out the fact that Twin can side in what are arguably main deck able things to begin with Revelry, and rending volley and the other Twin hate was ineffective. WotC realized this and it is comparable to Dredge in that I need to side heavily to beat Twin I need multiple SB slots dedicated to just that deck and they might just SB in a way that renders my SB plan useless if not just causing you to have SB'ed multiple dead cards. Even dredge couldn't put that kind of stress on the value of how you SB they couldn't just SB out of being a GY deck.
Torpor Orb had lost a lot of popularity well before the Twin ban. It was played because it was powerful against Twin and Pod, but once Pod got banned it became less impressive. I don't think Hushwing Gryff ever saw that much play to begin with. Spellskite might have seen a dip, but it's actually still a pretty common sideboard card today, with some running it maindeck. I'll give you Rending Volley.
Seems pretty bad. You'd need to bring out a lot of useful cards to make room for the new combo and that weakens the deck. You'd have to basically just drop the tempo plan to make room for it and be more of an all-in combo deck, and if you're going to do that it feels like you'd be better off going back to those All-In Twin builds because at least your added combo pieces will have synergy with the old ones (i.e. if you go back to running some copies of Kiki-Jiki, that'll combo with a Deceiver Exarch, but a Sword of the Meek won't).
There's the obvious comparison to the ThopterDepths deck in Extended that ran the HexDepths and ThopterSword combo together and was very powerful because they required totally different answers, but there's a bit more crossover in answers against ThopterTwin and also HexDepths was much faster (especially when the deck was running Chrome Mox).
Spirits
I really don't believe you that you played Twin since Modern's inception because almost everything you say about the deck is completely wrong, and all of us who actually did play with it or against it can clearly tell you have no idea what you're talking about.
And you completely ignored the part where he explained how you're wrong about Destructive Revelry. If Twin was siding out the combo, they were most likely siding in Blood Moon, Batterskull, and sometimes something like Dragon's Claw against Burn, all of which are good targets for Destructive Revelry. You also ignored the part where I said that Volley was never dead against Twin because they were always going to play blue creatures that it would have targets for.
No, it's not comparable at all, you really don't understand the sideboard lottery argument that WotC made to justify the Grave Troll banning. You can beat Twin with tons of maindeckable cards. Hand disruption, removal, Spellskites, and counterspells are all good ways to fight Twin. You don't have to have Rending Volley or other narrow answers in your sideboard to fight Twin, people just did it because Twin was a popular archetype and there are very good hosers for it, so it was worth it to run a couple of them. Dredge, on the other hand, does not have good maindeckable ways to fight it. It's a creature swarm deck that makes your removal bad. So you absolutely did have to have 2-4 pieces of graveyard hate in your sideboard to stand any chance, and then you had to draw them. Or you just had to play a faster deck and go under them, since they played minimal interaction.
And Twin's sideboarding was completely predictable. If you're playing GBx or some other deck that makes it almost impossible for them to combo, you can safely assume they are going to side out almost all of the combo, maybe just keeping one copy of Twin, and side into Blood Moon, Keranos, Batterskull, Teferi, Roast, and Jace AoT. If you're playing a fast linear deck, you can safely assume they won't side out the combo at all. It's pretty easy to know if the Twin combo is good against your deck or not, and make the right sideboarding predictions about what they will do.
Thanks. And yeah, I'm not even saying that Twin wasn't the best deck in 2015. I think it was, but it wasn't this oppressive unbeatable tier 0 juggernaut that people like Bizzycola and others on these threads try to make it out to be. Twin, in my opinion, was the best deck, but not by a clear margin. If it had been clearly the best deck without any bad matchups it would have reached historic metagame share levels that have gotten decks banned in the past, in the 20+ range. As it was, it wasn't even more played than the GBx decks when it got banned.
UBR Grixis Shadow UBR
UR Izzet Phoenix UR
UW UW Control UW
GB GB Rock GB
Commander
BG Meren of Clan Nel Toth BG
BGUW Atraxa, Praetor's Voice BGUW
Here's an interesting thought: are we starting to get into a territory where Green is becoming as dominant as Blue was in the early days of Magic? Green has the best creatures, which they should, but they also have the best cantrip in Modern, the best tutors, the best sources of card advantage, and even the best removal when paired with black. While blue and red have seen their slices of the color pie weakened and reduced, it seems like green has been really pushed for the last 4 or 5 sets.
UBR Grixis Shadow UBR
UR Izzet Phoenix UR
UW UW Control UW
GB GB Rock GB
Commander
BG Meren of Clan Nel Toth BG
BGUW Atraxa, Praetor's Voice BGUW
excatly. I played interactive decks and never found twin broken when I faced it. maybe these people are playing linear decks and just dont like losing to twins policing ability?
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