SFM and Twin unbanned at the same time, so you are worried about it in a Jeskai shell??
We had Jeskai Twin-Blade with Jace and Preordain in standard! How bad could it possibly be? Be real.
He said of one of the most degenerate decks in standard history.
I wasnt playing then, so please forgive my ignorance, was just trying to find the actual issue/concern. :]
There was indeed a time when inquisition, bolt, colonnade, tarn, preordain, batterskull, SFM, Twin, Exarch, and Jace all occupied the same standard. It went about as well as you might imagine.
SFM and Twin unbanned at the same time, so you are worried about it in a Jeskai shell??
We had Jeskai Twin-Blade with Jace and Preordain in standard! How bad could it possibly be? Be real.
He said of one of the most degenerate decks in standard history.
I wasnt playing then, so please forgive my ignorance, was just trying to find the actual issue/concern. :]
There was indeed a time when inquisition, bolt, colonnade, tarn, preordain, batterskull, SFM, Twin, Exarch, and Jace all occupied the same standard. It went about as well as you might imagine.
Glorious. I like my Standard like I like my Modern. Degenerate.
SFM and Twin unbanned at the same time, so you are worried about it in a Jeskai shell??
We had Jeskai Twin-Blade with Jace and Preordain in standard! How bad could it possibly be? Be real.
He said of one of the most degenerate decks in standard history.
I wasnt playing then, so please forgive my ignorance, was just trying to find the actual issue/concern. :]
There was indeed a time when inquisition, bolt, colonnade, tarn, preordain, batterskull, SFM, Twin, Exarch, and Jace all occupied the same standard. It went about as well as you might imagine.
I feel like half the reason a preordain unban seems frightening is the quantity of one blue cantrips. If that's the case they should just ban visions and unban preordain. Would combo decks having scry before draw instead really push them that hard?
True, except for the fact that WotC actually draws conclusions about modern from past standards, so it matters because "scary standard was scary".
if it never saw modern we dont know how strong it will be. jund was also broken in standard at one point remember, and its quite balanced with even more powerful options in modern.
they took a risk with av and sotm and they were fine. i think its time they take a risk with others that havent seen modern. either that or unban twin
Amonkhet is supposed to be an Egyptian set. Egyptians used rune. Mother of Runes reprint confirmed.
But really, I would love Mom in the format. She creates some interesting board states.
Hmmm. No, they did not. They used hieroglyphs.
In all fairness, they are visually very similar, and WotC could easily make Mom fit in the set flavorfully (especially with that gorgeous Terese Neilson art). I've been saying this for sometime as well; Mom needs some Modern love.
Its completely OT, but no, they are not. Hieroglyphs are not visually similar to runes, nor are they similar in the way they convey their meaning. They are only similar in the sense they are both forms of convey a meaning through an inscribed message. But then, so are the Cyrillic, Roman or Greek alphabets.
I feel like half the reason a preordain unban seems frightening is the quantity of one blue cantrips. If that's the case they should just ban visions and unban preordain. Would combo decks having scry before draw instead really push them that hard?
This isn't necessarily directed to you, but rather to anyone who is worried about Preordain. Also, apologies if someone responded to this question already and I missed it on a previous page.
Please point to the specific combo decks which Preordain might break. Include their metagame shares currently and/or historically. Then, please explain why those decks are problematic given those metagame shares.
I ask this question because I hear lots of worry about decks like Storm, Cheeri0s, Griselbrand, Ad Nauseam, Scapeshift, etc., but all of those decks seem to lack the metagame share to be problematic. Sure, Preordain would boost them, but it seems very unlikely that they would receive huge boosts relative to the other decks which benefited from Preordain. In my experience, fear of Preordain is based on a largely unsupported, general fear of blue-based combo decks that aren't really that bad in Modern these days.
I feel like half the reason a preordain unban seems frightening is the quantity of one blue cantrips. If that's the case they should just ban visions and unban preordain. Would combo decks having scry before draw instead really push them that hard?
This isn't necessarily directed to you, but rather to anyone who is worried about Preordain. Also, apologies if someone responded to this question already and I missed it on a previous page.
Please point to the specific combo decks which Preordain might break. Include their metagame shares currently and/or historically. Then, please explain why those decks are problematic given those metagame shares.
I ask this question because I hear lots of worry about decks like Storm, Cheeri0s, Griselbrand, Ad Nauseam, Scapeshift, etc., but all of those decks seem to lack the metagame share to be problematic. Sure, Preordain would boost them, but it seems very unlikely that they would receive huge boosts relative to the other decks which benefited from Preordain. In my experience, fear of Preordain is based on a largely unsupported, general fear of blue-based combo decks that aren't really that bad in Modern these days.
I'd just like to mention, that these same "fears of combo decks rising to power" where shared with the topic of an Ancestral Visions unban, and just look at how that all turned out.
Amonkhet is supposed to be an Egyptian set. Egyptians used rune. Mother of Runes reprint confirmed.
But really, I would love Mom in the format. She creates some interesting board states.
Hmmm. No, they did not. They used hieroglyphs.
In all fairness, they are visually very similar, and WotC could easily make Mom fit in the set flavorfully (especially with that gorgeous Terese Neilson art). I've been saying this for sometime as well; Mom needs some Modern love.
Its completely OT, but no, they are not. Hieroglyphs are not visually similar to runes, nor are they similar in the way they convey their meaning. They are only similar in the sense they are both forms of convey a meaning through an inscribed message. But then, so are the Cyrillic, Roman or Greek alphabets.
To the uninitiated, they are all squiggly lines carved into rocks.
Stoneforge unban is a no-brainer. With only 2 toughness and with Fatal Push released, it's a pretty easy card to destroy. Furthermore, needing to find room for 2-3 pieces of Equipment is a real deckbuilding cost, not something every deck can afford to do even if that deck is already playing white.
I certainly hope wizards does the right thing and unbans stoneforge in March
Stoneforge unban is a no-brainer. With only 2 toughness and with Fatal Push released, it's a pretty easy card to destroy. Furthermore, needing to find room for 2-3 pieces of Equipment is a real deckbuilding cost, not something every deck can afford to do even if that deck is already playing white.
I certainly hope wizards does the right thing and unbans stoneforge in March
I actually agree with you here. of course a preordain unban would be nice at the same time aswell
Stoneforge unban is a no-brainer. With only 2 toughness and with Fatal Push released, it's a pretty easy card to destroy. Furthermore, needing to find room for 2-3 pieces of Equipment is a real deckbuilding cost, not something every deck can afford to do even if that deck is already playing white.
I certainly hope wizards does the right thing and unbans stoneforge in March
I do think that the shift to more frequent banlist announcements (plus the fact that they were totally cool with owning up on the Golgari Grave-Troll unban) means WotC probably feels like they can play a little more loosely with unbannings. Plus, they really pushed the envelope on potentially risky unbannings last April, after setting up the field with the January bans. (*cough* Probe *cough*).
At any rate, I'd sure love to give Esper Stoneblade a whirl in Modern, and/or get a good U cantrip.
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WUBRG Humans BRW Mardu Pyromancer UW UW "Control" UR Blue Moon
It seems like the thread's participants are pretty close to a consensus that SFM and Preordain are safe and should be released.
Further speculation about cards like jace and twin are more controversial, but the above two seem to be mostly settled on and should probably come first (4 cards at once seems like too much risk for WotC).
Is that a fair characterization?
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Modern Decks
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG
It seems like the thread's participants are pretty close to a consensus that SFM and Preordain are safe and should be released.
Further speculation about cards like jace and twin are more controversial, but the above two seem to be mostly settled on and should probably come first (4 cards at once seems like too much risk for WotC).
Is that a fair characterization?
very fair, with cards like mana leak and remand I think blue needs to be more proactive/fast in this meta game, and jace doesnt help this. twin does, but people seem to hate that idea so.....
It seems like the thread's participants are pretty close to a consensus that SFM and Preordain are safe and should be released.
Further speculation about cards like jace and twin are more controversial, but the above two seem to be mostly settled on and should probably come first (4 cards at once seems like too much risk for WotC).
Is that a fair characterization?
Not universally shared, but I'd say it's pretty close to a general consensus. The reservations seem to be over pushing spell-based combo (for Preordain) or Abzan (for Stoneforge Mystic), but that camp seems to have far less traction than in months/years past.
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WUBRG Humans BRW Mardu Pyromancer UW UW "Control" UR Blue Moon
It seems like the thread's participants are pretty close to a consensus that SFM and Preordain are safe and should be released.
Further speculation about cards like jace and twin are more controversial, but the above two seem to be mostly settled on and should probably come first (4 cards at once seems like too much risk for WotC).
Is that a fair characterization?
Pretty much. We have these cards ready to be sleeved up and added to our decks, and are just waiting for wizards to give us the A-Ok next month.
Preordain and Jace COULD be fine without Twin in the format(I'm leaving this one to WOTC because i'm not really sure).
I'm still on the no unban for Stoneforge Mystic. It fits directly into a Tier 1 strategy and IMHO it speeds up the format, something opposite to the Probe ban criteria.
I'm still on the no unban for Stoneforge Mystic. It fits directly into a Tier 1 strategy and IMHO it speeds up the format, something opposite to the Probe ban criteria.
In a Modern with turn-3 Karn Liberated into turn-4 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon, endless Fish lords cheated in with Vials, ultra-redundant Burn decks, Sol lands powering out 4/4 Thoughtseizes, Elfballs, Tarmogoyfs, and now Death's Shadow Jund, how on earth does spending 80% of your resources between turns 2 and 3 to produce a 4/4 lifelinker that dies to the format'spremieranswersspeed up the format?
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WUBRG Humans BRW Mardu Pyromancer UW UW "Control" UR Blue Moon
I don't like Jace, The Mind Sculptor at all. He is great at winning all of the midrange decks, and can be from mediocre to useless vs decks like Tron, Valakut, Scapeshift, Infect, Affinity, Burn, Dredge, Boggles, Tokens etc.
Yes, some time he will be fatesealing midrange decks out of the game. Will that be a fun element? No. Will Jace make URx decks better at winning vs big mana decks or even aggro decks hitting from different angles? No.
Ktkenshinx said a lot of times already that URx's decks fall reason is not Tron/Valakut/Eldrazi but that URx (or U-based control/attrition decks) are simply not good enough and this is highlighted by the fact that BGx is still doing GREAT despite the fact that Big mana decks and other attrition natural predators exist in the format.
So, can anyone tell me:
How the heck Jace, The Mind Sculptor will help URx control/attrition decks win their bad matchups?
On top of that, how will the card help if a respectable portion of Modern's meta rises to the ocassion and tries to go under him or ignore him? Meaning move away from decks like Jund and play Abzan Midrange(Lingering Souls can still wreck him apart) or play Tron, or RG Valakut/Titanshift variations, or Bant Eldrazi, or Burn, etc?
Blue based control/attrition decks were good only once during Modern's history. With Splinter Twin. Those decks need A kind of FAST(not turn 4 violator) win con button in the vast sea of Modern's linearity. Do you think Splinter Twin is too good? Unban it and ban Deceiver Exarch. But even that is not necessary imo. Just give Splinter Twin.
Threats are easy to comeby. The question is not "can blue kill people", the issue is "why lean on blue when I can lean on black?"
Blue provides basically two things: selection, and permission. The permission is kinda bad, and the selection is ok. Make the selection better, and suddenly you have an actual incentive to make blue the backbone of your deck, even if it's only to tie it together. I agree with the sentiment repeated in this thread many times that blue should not be the second best color for card selection.
I'm still on the no unban for Stoneforge Mystic. It fits directly into a Tier 1 strategy and IMHO it speeds up the format, something opposite to the Probe ban criteria.
In a Modern with turn-3 Karn Liberated into turn-4 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon, endless Fish lords cheated in with Vials, ultra-redundant Burn decks, Sol lands powering out 4/4 Thoughtseizes, Elfballs, Tarmogoyfs, and now Death's Shadow Jund, how on earth does spending 80% of your resources between turns 2 and 3 to produce a 4/4 lifelinker that dies to the format'spremieranswersspeed up the format?
Yeah, don't fall on that trick. You are basically saying that Deathrite Shaman is safe because it dies to Bolt, heck it even dies to Disfigure!. No, that arguement doesn't make sense. Cards that good don't care about removal. Do you always have Bolt in your hand?. If Batterskull enters the battlfield on T3 you are in big trouble unless you are goldfishing your way via giant spells like Karn and Ulamog, or Lightning Storming on T4.
That's really a card that i can say, if you love her, you can play Legacy where she has several homes in midrange decks and D&T.
Also, on the blue matter and responding to gkorou. People mistake blue issues with lack of 50/50 matchups. Blue doens't need a way to have good matchups against bad matchups like Tron and Valakut. It needs to not lose games that it's suposed to win. Jace is such a powerful card that trading resources on the first 6 Turns for example, makes him a nice way to keep the cards flowing through Brainstorming and controlling the opponent via Fateseal and Unsummon, with the obvious upside that it WILL win you games just by ticking up and ultimating.
Again, i'm not sure if he is ok for the format and would help blue, but i can see where the talks and reasonings are coming from. Preordain and Jace would be HUGE boosts to Fair Control. That doens't exclude Combo decks like Reanimator, Nauseam and Storm obviously.
Yeah, don't fall on that trick. You are basically saying that Deathrite Shaman is safe because it dies to Bolt, heck it even dies to Disfigure!. No, that arguement doesn't make sense. Cards that good don't care about removal. Do you always have Bolt in your hand?. If Batterskull enters the battlfield on T3 you are in big trouble unless you are goldfishing your way via giant spells like Karn and Ulamog, or Lightning Storming on T4.
I said absolutely nothing of the sort. You said Stoneforge speeds up the format. I pointed out a bunch of reasons I think that's incorrect. Correct me where I'm wrong in my interpretations, or put forth a counter-argument, but don't put words in my mouth or make irrelevant deflections.
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WUBRG Humans BRW Mardu Pyromancer UW UW "Control" UR Blue Moon
As much as I think SFM isn't broken, what does her unban accomplish right now? If linear, creature aggro was rampant, we'd be having a serious conversation. But how does this help the format right now? Sure, it's ok if a players Tron deck is crapping on him, but it's not fantastic.
What does SFM unbanning do? It doesn't stop a 7/7 flyer going through his whole deck and killing me, it doesn't stop Eldrazi Tron. All it does is improve Abzan, stifle any blue decks not splashing white, and hurt Jund on top of it.
You could argue that it improves Death and Taxes, which would revitalize the archetype and help fight these ramp decks
Jace absolutely, 100% does NOTHING. Great, blue decks shouldn't be losing against the GBx archetype, so it'll be the king of beating midrange decks while it dies to ramp and combo and fast, linear decks? You're encouraging interactive decks to have more 40/60s-35/75's, if that's the case, why the hell are jund and junk players even going to bother with the archetype, at that point I may as well play a goldfish deck that can provide free wins and have strong matchups elsewhere. Jace literally does nothing but stifle interactive decks, and funny enough, all he may do is power up BUG midrange, and you'd still be left with no control deck.
There's also the doomsday scenario that a far better player than anyone in this thread suggests it could endanger the entire format, according to Cory Burkhart. If anyone has the link and explanation, that'd be fantastic
I am adamantly against Jace, he does absolutely NOTHING for this format
SFM is a little closer to the unban for me, if she can seriously power up death and taxes, white weenies, Eldazi and Taxes, maybe. Although now this could lead to issues about Eldrazi Temple, since so many decks will be running this card.
I'm not sure if you guys can see it, but right now the format is having an issue with breaking the pie chart, look at how many powerful cards are colorless, and look at the success colorless decks are having, I'm pretty certain this wasn't WOTC's intention
I'm for a preordain unban, Sheridan asked for you guys to point out what dangerous deck it could make oppressive and thus far no one has backed up those claims
I think my issue is that preordain does not fix the issue that blue has, although it's certainly the right step. Going into the right step doesn't stop the color from being absolute crap though. The fact that Snapcaster is a 30 dollar card despite almost being at Goyf levels is astounding (Goyfs still better across the board, let's not kid ourselves).
Preordain and SFM unban if you want to improve blue a little
Twin unban if you want blue to stop being a joke in the format
If Twin wins too much again, they can seriously look into banning Exarch without angering players, since as how UR Twin was incredibly powerful due to it's blue moon sideboard control plan
Jeskai Twin is very powerful, but it's definitely clunkier
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There was indeed a time when inquisition, bolt, colonnade, tarn, preordain, batterskull, SFM, Twin, Exarch, and Jace all occupied the same standard. It went about as well as you might imagine.
Glorious. I like my Standard like I like my Modern. Degenerate.
except this is modern not standard.
decks playing:
none
True, except for the fact that WotC actually draws conclusions about modern from past standards, so it matters because "scary standard was scary".
if it never saw modern we dont know how strong it will be. jund was also broken in standard at one point remember, and its quite balanced with even more powerful options in modern.
they took a risk with av and sotm and they were fine. i think its time they take a risk with others that havent seen modern. either that or unban twin
decks playing:
none
Its completely OT, but no, they are not. Hieroglyphs are not visually similar to runes, nor are they similar in the way they convey their meaning. They are only similar in the sense they are both forms of convey a meaning through an inscribed message. But then, so are the Cyrillic, Roman or Greek alphabets.
Due to this, I'd almost not be surprised to see Emrakul, the Promised End and Smuggler's Copter get panic-banned in Modern.
This isn't necessarily directed to you, but rather to anyone who is worried about Preordain. Also, apologies if someone responded to this question already and I missed it on a previous page.
Please point to the specific combo decks which Preordain might break. Include their metagame shares currently and/or historically. Then, please explain why those decks are problematic given those metagame shares.
I ask this question because I hear lots of worry about decks like Storm, Cheeri0s, Griselbrand, Ad Nauseam, Scapeshift, etc., but all of those decks seem to lack the metagame share to be problematic. Sure, Preordain would boost them, but it seems very unlikely that they would receive huge boosts relative to the other decks which benefited from Preordain. In my experience, fear of Preordain is based on a largely unsupported, general fear of blue-based combo decks that aren't really that bad in Modern these days.
I'd just like to mention, that these same "fears of combo decks rising to power" where shared with the topic of an Ancestral Visions unban, and just look at how that all turned out.
To the uninitiated, they are all squiggly lines carved into rocks.
Edit: emphasis on rocks
I certainly hope wizards does the right thing and unbans stoneforge in March
I actually agree with you here. of course a preordain unban would be nice at the same time aswell
decks playing:
none
I do think that the shift to more frequent banlist announcements (plus the fact that they were totally cool with owning up on the Golgari Grave-Troll unban) means WotC probably feels like they can play a little more loosely with unbannings. Plus, they really pushed the envelope on potentially risky unbannings last April, after setting up the field with the January bans. (*cough* Probe *cough*).
At any rate, I'd sure love to give Esper Stoneblade a whirl in Modern, and/or get a good U cantrip.
WUBRG Humans
BRW Mardu Pyromancer
UW UW "Control"
UR Blue Moon
Further speculation about cards like jace and twin are more controversial, but the above two seem to be mostly settled on and should probably come first (4 cards at once seems like too much risk for WotC).
Is that a fair characterization?
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG
very fair, with cards like mana leak and remand I think blue needs to be more proactive/fast in this meta game, and jace doesnt help this. twin does, but people seem to hate that idea so.....
decks playing:
none
Not universally shared, but I'd say it's pretty close to a general consensus. The reservations seem to be over pushing spell-based combo (for Preordain) or Abzan (for Stoneforge Mystic), but that camp seems to have far less traction than in months/years past.
WUBRG Humans
BRW Mardu Pyromancer
UW UW "Control"
UR Blue Moon
Pretty much. We have these cards ready to be sleeved up and added to our decks, and are just waiting for wizards to give us the A-Ok next month.
I'm still on the no unban for Stoneforge Mystic. It fits directly into a Tier 1 strategy and IMHO it speeds up the format, something opposite to the Probe ban criteria.
In a Modern with turn-3 Karn Liberated into turn-4 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon, endless Fish lords cheated in with Vials, ultra-redundant Burn decks, Sol lands powering out 4/4 Thoughtseizes, Elfballs, Tarmogoyfs, and now Death's Shadow Jund, how on earth does spending 80% of your resources between turns 2 and 3 to produce a 4/4 lifelinker that dies to the format's premier answers speed up the format?
WUBRG Humans
BRW Mardu Pyromancer
UW UW "Control"
UR Blue Moon
Threats are easy to come by. The question is not "can blue kill people", the issue is "why lean on blue when I can lean on black?"
Blue provides basically two things: selection, and permission. The permission is kinda bad, and the selection is ok. Make the selection better, and suddenly you have an actual incentive to make blue the backbone of your deck, even if it's only to tie it together. I agree with the sentiment repeated in this thread many times that blue should not be the second best color for card selection.
Yeah, don't fall on that trick. You are basically saying that Deathrite Shaman is safe because it dies to Bolt, heck it even dies to Disfigure!. No, that arguement doesn't make sense. Cards that good don't care about removal. Do you always have Bolt in your hand?. If Batterskull enters the battlfield on T3 you are in big trouble unless you are goldfishing your way via giant spells like Karn and Ulamog, or Lightning Storming on T4.
That's really a card that i can say, if you love her, you can play Legacy where she has several homes in midrange decks and D&T.
Also, on the blue matter and responding to gkorou. People mistake blue issues with lack of 50/50 matchups. Blue doens't need a way to have good matchups against bad matchups like Tron and Valakut. It needs to not lose games that it's suposed to win. Jace is such a powerful card that trading resources on the first 6 Turns for example, makes him a nice way to keep the cards flowing through Brainstorming and controlling the opponent via Fateseal and Unsummon, with the obvious upside that it WILL win you games just by ticking up and ultimating.
Again, i'm not sure if he is ok for the format and would help blue, but i can see where the talks and reasonings are coming from. Preordain and Jace would be HUGE boosts to Fair Control. That doens't exclude Combo decks like Reanimator, Nauseam and Storm obviously.
I said absolutely nothing of the sort. You said Stoneforge speeds up the format. I pointed out a bunch of reasons I think that's incorrect. Correct me where I'm wrong in my interpretations, or put forth a counter-argument, but don't put words in my mouth or make irrelevant deflections.
WUBRG Humans
BRW Mardu Pyromancer
UW UW "Control"
UR Blue Moon
As much as I think SFM isn't broken, what does her unban accomplish right now? If linear, creature aggro was rampant, we'd be having a serious conversation. But how does this help the format right now? Sure, it's ok if a players Tron deck is crapping on him, but it's not fantastic.
What does SFM unbanning do? It doesn't stop a 7/7 flyer going through his whole deck and killing me, it doesn't stop Eldrazi Tron. All it does is improve Abzan, stifle any blue decks not splashing white, and hurt Jund on top of it.
You could argue that it improves Death and Taxes, which would revitalize the archetype and help fight these ramp decks
Jace absolutely, 100% does NOTHING. Great, blue decks shouldn't be losing against the GBx archetype, so it'll be the king of beating midrange decks while it dies to ramp and combo and fast, linear decks? You're encouraging interactive decks to have more 40/60s-35/75's, if that's the case, why the hell are jund and junk players even going to bother with the archetype, at that point I may as well play a goldfish deck that can provide free wins and have strong matchups elsewhere. Jace literally does nothing but stifle interactive decks, and funny enough, all he may do is power up BUG midrange, and you'd still be left with no control deck.
There's also the doomsday scenario that a far better player than anyone in this thread suggests it could endanger the entire format, according to Cory Burkhart. If anyone has the link and explanation, that'd be fantastic
I am adamantly against Jace, he does absolutely NOTHING for this format
SFM is a little closer to the unban for me, if she can seriously power up death and taxes, white weenies, Eldazi and Taxes, maybe. Although now this could lead to issues about Eldrazi Temple, since so many decks will be running this card.
I'm not sure if you guys can see it, but right now the format is having an issue with breaking the pie chart, look at how many powerful cards are colorless, and look at the success colorless decks are having, I'm pretty certain this wasn't WOTC's intention
I'm for a preordain unban, Sheridan asked for you guys to point out what dangerous deck it could make oppressive and thus far no one has backed up those claims
I think my issue is that preordain does not fix the issue that blue has, although it's certainly the right step. Going into the right step doesn't stop the color from being absolute crap though. The fact that Snapcaster is a 30 dollar card despite almost being at Goyf levels is astounding (Goyfs still better across the board, let's not kid ourselves).
Preordain and SFM unban if you want to improve blue a little
Twin unban if you want blue to stop being a joke in the format
If Twin wins too much again, they can seriously look into banning Exarch without angering players, since as how UR Twin was incredibly powerful due to it's blue moon sideboard control plan
Jeskai Twin is very powerful, but it's definitely clunkier