Thinking on this, what I'd really like to see are more fair decks in modern. Jund is basically the only fair deck outside of possibly merfolk (pending definition of fair) and trying to create a control deck in modern given the sheer power level the format holds may require designing something that likely will be game breaking down the road. People are saying modern needs stronger answers, but what I'm afraid of is wizards printing an answer that is functionally the tarmogoyf of answers. It's okay at first, but as more sets and mechanics get released it becomes stronger and stronger, until it literally is the answer that every deck, let alone control decks, ends up playing if it's in the right colors. What form that answer takes can be anybody's guess, but it would have to be a scalable mechanic that gets underestimated.
Jund is the only fair deck? The Death's Shadow deck is ultimately pretty fair (its creatures get pretty big but it's just playing hand disruption and removal until it can stick a threat), Grixis Control and Delver are pretty similar and combine to about 4.3% or so according to MTGGoldfish (which is more than Jund). Abzan is similar to Jund but different in several ways and is very popular atm.
lol, no, bud, you're confusing fair with interactive.
Shadow can play an 8/8 for 1 mana, or a 7/8 Goyf for 2 mana, that's massively unfair. The deck is very interactive, but it's cheating out fat, huge threats for cheap, unfair mana. The deck is good because it's doing incredibly unfair things
Again,
Interactive =/= Fair
What do you consider fair then? Undercosted beatsticks are pretty much the definition of fair. They have no evasion and can be targetted by removal. What would be fair if not them?
I'm not adamantly opposed to Jace, but I feel he is bad news for diversity. I believe Jordan made the point that he would set a very high (impossibly high IMO) bar for blue planeswalkers to enter modern
And how many Blue planeswalkers see any real Modern play? Zero, and it's been like that since the start of the format. In the past, there were some points when you'd see Vryn's Prodigy or Architect of Thought, but even those didn't see strong play even at the height of their popularity. The best Blue planeswalker right now, Nahiri, isn't even Blue! (and by the way, Nahiri isn't doing all that hot right now either)
It doesn't matter if Jace sets an "impossibly high bar" for Blue planeswalkers when the bar is already apparently impossibly high considering the extremely low amount of play they see.
That's not exactly true. Blue walkers to see play in modern, but the decks are generally not super popular strategies. UW control usually runs Tamiyo, the Moon Sage and Jace, Architect of Thought as one ofs, and I could easily see Jace, the Mind Sculptor slotting into that archetype over the older jace. The trouble is the second ability of Jace would require them to also unban Brainstorm as they are essentially the same thing.
Brainstorm isn't banned. It hasn't been in a modern legal set.
I'm not adamantly opposed to Jace, but I feel he is bad news for diversity. I believe Jordan made the point that he would set a very high (impossibly high IMO) bar for blue planeswalkers to enter modern
And how many Blue planeswalkers see any real Modern play? Zero, and it's been like that since the start of the format. In the past, there were some points when you'd see Vryn's Prodigy or Architect of Thought, but even those didn't see strong play even at the height of their popularity. The best Blue planeswalker right now, Nahiri, isn't even Blue! (and by the way, Nahiri isn't doing all that hot right now either)
It doesn't matter if Jace sets an "impossibly high bar" for Blue planeswalkers when the bar is already apparently impossibly high considering the extremely low amount of play they see.
That's not exactly true. Blue walkers to see play in modern, but the decks are generally not super popular strategies. UW control usually runs Tamiyo, the Moon Sage and Jace, Architect of Thought as one ofs, and I could easily see Jace, the Mind Sculptor slotting into that archetype over the older jace. The trouble is the second ability of Jace would require them to also unban Brainstorm as they are essentially the same thing.
Brainstorm isn't banned. It hasn't been in a modern legal set.
It's also not even close to the same thing, one is a 1 cmc instant, the other is a 4 cmc sorcery speed effect on a walker.
I'm gonna disagree with this. You're confusing undercosted with unfair. Each of those "massively unfair creatures" have strict deck requirements to be able to be implemented, namely you need to fill and keep full your gy and have a significantly reduced life total. When you say DS is an 8/8 for 1 mana you neglect the part about being at 5 life, bolt SCM bolt from being dead. And when you say a 2 mana 7/8 you forget to mention that is with 7 different card types in the gy. Death Shadow as a deck is good because people are preoccupied with doing their own thing and not utilizing the tools in the format to disrupt it. I don't see it as unfair at all.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern GB Rock U Flooding Merfolk RUG Delver Midrange WU Monks UW Tempo Geist GW Bogle GW Liege UR Tron B Vampires
Affinity Legacy
Fish
Goblins
Burn
Reanimator
Dredge
Affinity EDH W Akroma GBW Ghave BRU Thrax GR Ruric I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
Thinking on this, what I'd really like to see are more fair decks in modern. Jund is basically the only fair deck outside of possibly merfolk (pending definition of fair) and trying to create a control deck in modern given the sheer power level the format holds may require designing something that likely will be game breaking down the road. People are saying modern needs stronger answers, but what I'm afraid of is wizards printing an answer that is functionally the tarmogoyf of answers. It's okay at first, but as more sets and mechanics get released it becomes stronger and stronger, until it literally is the answer that every deck, let alone control decks, ends up playing if it's in the right colors. What form that answer takes can be anybody's guess, but it would have to be a scalable mechanic that gets underestimated.
Jund is the only fair deck? The Death's Shadow deck is ultimately pretty fair (its creatures get pretty big but it's just playing hand disruption and removal until it can stick a threat), Grixis Control and Delver are pretty similar and combine to about 4.3% or so according to MTGGoldfish (which is more than Jund). Abzan is similar to Jund but different in several ways and is very popular atm.
lol, no, bud, you're confusing fair with interactive.
Shadow can play an 8/8 for 1 mana, or a 7/8 Goyf for 2 mana, that's massively unfair. The deck is very interactive, but it's cheating out fat, huge threats for cheap, unfair mana. The deck is good because it's doing incredibly unfair things
Again,
Interactive =/= Fair
No, no it's not. It is no more unfair than Tron. And Id argue Tron has way better threats for its mana cheating. AND Tron barely interacts. I hope you are as up in arms against Tron as well.
I really, really hate Tron because it is so difficult to interact with lands outside of a few sideboard answers. At least I have the tools necessary to stop Death's Shadow and friends.
But I do not think anything for either deck needs to be banned because they help to diversify a healthy format.
I really, really hate Tron because it is so difficult to interact with lands outside of a few sideboard answers. At least I have the tools necessary to stop Death's Shadow and friends.
But I do not think anything for either deck needs to be banned because they help to diversify a healthy format.
'I despise deck X for these reasons, but I am objective about how much impact it has or how healthy it is to have it and i don't just clamor for a ban'
excellent post friend
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Project Booster Fun makes it less fun to open a booster.
And how many Blue planeswalkers see any real Modern play? Zero, and it's been like that since the start of the format. In the past, there were some points when you'd see Vryn's Prodigy or Architect of Thought, but even those didn't see strong play even at the height of their popularity. The best Blue planeswalker right now, Nahiri, isn't even Blue! (and by the way, Nahiri isn't doing all that hot right now either)
It doesn't matter if Jace sets an "impossibly high bar" for Blue planeswalkers when the bar is already apparently impossibly high considering the extremely low amount of play they see.
That's not exactly true. Blue walkers to see play in modern, but the decks are generally not super popular strategies. UW control usually runs Tamiyo, the Moon Sage and Jace, Architect of Thought as one ofs, and I could easily see Jace, the Mind Sculptor slotting into that archetype over the older jace. The trouble is the second ability of Jace would require them to also unban Brainstorm as they are essentially the same thing.
Yes, a 1 mana instant Brainstorm and 4 mana sorcery speed Brainstorm are exactly the same thing!
Not even that so much as hearing the words "unban Brainstorm" in sequence.
In the kind of deck that runs Jace, yes I'm putting it on brainstorm level. The problem people are having with decent blue decks is enabling them to begin with. To do that you really don't want to unban an overpowered card as much as spread that power across multiple cards unless we want a repeat of dredge, where they unbanned Golgari Grave-Troll, then proceeded to print so many cards that support graveyard strategies the deck just went to crazy town.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Thinking on this, what I'd really like to see are more fair decks in modern. Jund is basically the only fair deck outside of possibly merfolk (pending definition of fair) and trying to create a control deck in modern given the sheer power level the format holds may require designing something that likely will be game breaking down the road. People are saying modern needs stronger answers, but what I'm afraid of is wizards printing an answer that is functionally the tarmogoyf of answers. It's okay at first, but as more sets and mechanics get released it becomes stronger and stronger, until it literally is the answer that every deck, let alone control decks, ends up playing if it's in the right colors. What form that answer takes can be anybody's guess, but it would have to be a scalable mechanic that gets underestimated.
Jund is the only fair deck? The Death's Shadow deck is ultimately pretty fair (its creatures get pretty big but it's just playing hand disruption and removal until it can stick a threat), Grixis Control and Delver are pretty similar and combine to about 4.3% or so according to MTGGoldfish (which is more than Jund). Abzan is similar to Jund but different in several ways and is very popular atm.
lol, no, bud, you're confusing fair with interactive.
Shadow can play an 8/8 for 1 mana, or a 7/8 Goyf for 2 mana, that's massively unfair. The deck is very interactive, but it's cheating out fat, huge threats for cheap, unfair mana. The deck is good because it's doing incredibly unfair things
Again,
Interactive =/= Fair
Mmm, dat sweet sweet condescension. Can't get enough of it.
Jund and Abzan can also set up a powerful Goyf for little effort. I've seen Abzan decks with 6/7 Goyfs on turn 3 pretty consistently. Is Abzan also an unfair deck now?
That's not exactly true. Blue walkers to see play in modern, but the decks are generally not super popular strategies. UW control usually runs Tamiyo, the Moon Sage and Jace, Architect of Thought as one ofs, and I could easily see Jace, the Mind Sculptor slotting into that archetype over the older jace. The trouble is the second ability of Jace would require them to also unban Brainstorm as they are essentially the same thing.
Yes, a 1 mana instant Brainstorm and 4 mana sorcery speed Brainstorm are exactly the same thing!
Not even that so much as hearing the words "unban Brainstorm" in sequence.
In the kind of deck that runs Jace, yes I'm putting it on brainstorm level. The problem people are having with decent blue decks is enabling them to begin with. To do that you really don't want to unban an overpowered card as much as spread that power across multiple cards unless we want a repeat of dredge, where they unbanned Golgari Grave-Troll, then proceeded to print so many cards that support graveyard strategies the deck just went to crazy town.
I see what you're saying, but Brainstorm isn't banned. It's just hasn't been printed from 8th edition on. They COULD potentially reprint tin standard, but I doubt that. It's one of the best draw spells for a reason.
> Tap for a U
> Cast Brainstorm.
> Looks at hand. Grabs spells that he/she may need and return 2 potentially dead spells.
> Activates Fetch Land.
> Library has been manipulated.
Sensei's Divining Top was banned for that reason, no? Brainstorm would also give a lot of power to Delver of Secrets decks. Do you really want the meta to begin to look like Legacies? 3 Delver decks in betwixt tier 1 and 1.5? This is not meant to be taken in a condescending manner. Just silly replying to your post.
I'm unsure what blue may need, because I don't play the color, but it may be a tough call. They could unban Ponder or Preordain, but didn't those cards give Storm too much power?
I really, really hate Tron because it is so difficult to interact with lands outside of a few sideboard answers. At least I have the tools necessary to stop Death's Shadow and friends.
But I do not think anything for either deck needs to be banned because they help to diversify a healthy format.
'I despise deck X for these reasons, but I am objective about how much impact it has or how healthy it is to have it and i don't just clamor for a ban'
excellent post friend
Much appreciated :).
My thoughts on the upcoming B+R announcement lean towards unbanning rather than banning, and I would be bold and give Stoneforge Mystic a chance to show what she can do (even if it means banning Batterskull). Equipment is a non-factor in Modern unless one wants to combo off with a bowl of Cheerios, not to mention that tools like Abrupt Decay now exist to undermine what she can do to a board state.
Yeah, she is very powerful and unbanning her may be a mistake. But I think she should at least be given a chance.
Bull*****, I've been playing jund and junk almost exclusively for 2 years, Goyf does not become a 6/7 typically by turn 3 on a consistent basis. Goyf rarely hits 6/7 in those decks at all.
I'm surprised to hear you guys say shadow is fair, Sam black and Gerry Thompson were calling the deck unfair and proactive
In the kind of deck that runs Jace, yes I'm putting it on brainstorm level. The problem people are having with decent blue decks is enabling them to begin with. To do that you really don't want to unban an overpowered card as much as spread that power across multiple cards unless we want a repeat of dredge, where they unbanned Golgari Grave-Troll, then proceeded to print so many cards that support graveyard strategies the deck just went to crazy town.
I see what you're saying, but Brainstorm isn't banned. It's just hasn't been printed from 8th edition on. They COULD potentially reprint tin standard, but I doubt that. It's one of the best draw spells for a reason.
> Tap for a U
> Cast Brainstorm.
> Looks at hand. Grabs spells that he/she may need and return 2 potentially dead spells.
> Activates Fetch Land.
> Library has been manipulated.
Sensei's Divining Top was banned for that reason, no? Brainstorm would also give a lot of power to Delver of Secrets decks. Do you really want the meta to begin to look like Legacies? 3 Delver decks in betwixt tier 1 and 1.5? This is not meant to be taken in a condescending manner. Just silly replying to your post.
I'm unsure what blue may need, because I don't play the color, but it may be a tough call. They could unban Ponder or Preordain, but didn't those cards give Storm too much power?
Something I've noticed from wizards is that when they ban a card, it seems like they have some kind of card in the pipeline that is meant to act as a replacement. Saheeli Rai + Kiki Jiki Mirror Breaker seemed to be the vision of what WoTC expected would replace Twin, but that hasn't actually happened (except standard is now so broken it has been making some people go into complete rant mode, so can't say they didn't try? Not drawing any parallels here between modern and standard), so I imagine if they think they can fix blue, they wont unban something like Jace. If they don't think they can fix blue with printing something new, then they will look at the ban list and maybe try to unban something.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Abzan decks with Grim Flayer often run Bauble, which adds another type for free. I've been playing Flayer Abzan for awhile now and can get my Goyf to 6/7 on turn 3 fairly often. 5/6 is easier, but that's still an arbitrarily large creature for low mana. Where is the line drawn? If it becomes a 7/8 instead of a 5/6 or 6/7 then it suddenly becomes unfair?
Ultimately the DS Jund deck is playing removal and hand disruption and big beaters. Its big beaters are more efficient but require a lot more setup. It's absolutely a fair deck.
Bull*****, I've been playing jund and junk almost exclusively for 2 years, Goyf does not become a 6/7 typically by turn 3 on a consistent basis. Goyf rarely hits 6/7 in those decks at all.
I'm surprised to hear you guys say shadow is fair, Sam black and Gerry Thompson were calling the deck unfair and proactive
Considering DSx lost a few points in meta share, I imagine the deck is far easier to tame than you suggest. Again, Id like you to speak equally about tron. Im sure Karn turn 3 is fair, to you. Or Ulamog turn 4.
In the kind of deck that runs Jace, yes I'm putting it on brainstorm level. The problem people are having with decent blue decks is enabling them to begin with. To do that you really don't want to unban an overpowered card as much as spread that power across multiple cards unless we want a repeat of dredge, where they unbanned Golgari Grave-Troll, then proceeded to print so many cards that support graveyard strategies the deck just went to crazy town.
I see what you're saying, but Brainstorm isn't banned. It's just hasn't been printed from 8th edition on. They COULD potentially reprint tin standard, but I doubt that. It's one of the best draw spells for a reason.
> Tap for a U
> Cast Brainstorm.
> Looks at hand. Grabs spells that he/she may need and return 2 potentially dead spells.
> Activates Fetch Land.
> Library has been manipulated.
Sensei's Divining Top was banned for that reason, no? Brainstorm would also give a lot of power to Delver of Secrets decks. Do you really want the meta to begin to look like Legacies? 3 Delver decks in betwixt tier 1 and 1.5? This is not meant to be taken in a condescending manner. Just silly replying to your post.
I'm unsure what blue may need, because I don't play the color, but it may be a tough call. They could unban Ponder or Preordain, but didn't those cards give Storm too much power?
Something I've noticed from wizards is that when they ban a card, it seems like they have some kind of card in the pipeline that is meant to act as a replacement. Saheeli Rai + Kiki Jiki Mirror Breaker seemed to be the vision of what WoTC expected would replace Twin, but that hasn't actually happened (except standard is now so broken it has been making some people go into complete rant mode, so can't say they didn't try? Not drawing any parallels here between modern and standard), so I imagine if they think they can fix blue, they wont unban something like Jace. If they don't think they can fix blue with printing something new, then they will look at the ban list and maybe try to unban something.
Huh? Unless I missed something.
Copy Cat was a mistake, they missed the interaction, like they owned up to it and said 'yeah we missed that in testing'. Pretty hard to say its a twin replacement when they dont know wtf they even had on hand. The copy mechanics are not even the same. Red has been making copy tokens for a long time, it doesnt mean they tried to replace Twin (they didnt) it just means Copy Creature into a temp token is in red's colour pie, which it clearly is.
Bull*****, I've been playing jund and junk almost exclusively for 2 years, Goyf does not become a 6/7 typically by turn 3 on a consistent basis. Goyf rarely hits 6/7 in those decks at all.
I'm surprised to hear you guys say shadow is fair, Sam black and Gerry Thompson were calling the deck unfair and proactive
Exactly. It's not a reactive deck like people are glamoring. It just played Iok/TS to go down in life and deprive you of your spot removals and attack you with an unfairly big creature. It's plan is mostly a proactive one even if it plays reactively some times, as Thompson has been saying.
it most definately abuses the hell out of ds and goyf. but what else is bg/x to do with an eldrazi infested meta?
Also, regarding Ponder and Preordain, why does Wizards just not reprint Opt into Standard/Modern? It is clearly weaker than both of these and is not too strong for Standard environments that cannot abuse card filtering.
Besides, it needs updated text. (Scry 1, Draw a card)
Im really glad Wizards of the Coast just ignores this forum. Some people here think Mtg Salvation should just do the ban list but at the same time there is so much BS going on here I don´t even know where to start. There is no such thing as consensus and it seems like most peope are just speculating without any testing or they just want to play with their favourite toys without actually giving anything about the health of the format. It´s hilarious but this discussion cannot be taken serious at all. There is a reason bans and unbans are not allowed to be discussed in other forums.
So I will just lean back now and continue watching you argue like little kids.
I'm not adamantly opposed to Jace, but I feel he is bad news for diversity. I believe Jordan made the point that he would set a very high (impossibly high IMO) bar for blue planeswalkers to enter modern
And how many Blue planeswalkers see any real Modern play? Zero, and it's been like that since the start of the format. In the past, there were some points when you'd see Vryn's Prodigy or Architect of Thought, but even those didn't see strong play even at the height of their popularity. The best Blue planeswalker right now, Nahiri, isn't even Blue! (and by the way, Nahiri isn't doing all that hot right now either)
It doesn't matter if Jace sets an "impossibly high bar" for Blue planeswalkers when the bar is already apparently impossibly high considering the extremely low amount of play they see.
That's not exactly true. Blue walkers to see play in modern, but the decks are generally not super popular strategies. UW control usually runs Tamiyo, the Moon Sage and Jace, Architect of Thought as one ofs,
According to MTG Top 8, Jace, Architect of Thought sees play in about 1% of decks (solely as a 1-of) and Tamiyo sees play in... actually, she doesn't even show up, the last decklist they have that ran her was from mid-2016. If a Blue planeswalker's highest rate of play is a 1-of in 1% of decks, then they already can't cross the bar to see play, so the argument that Jace sets too high a bar doesn't make much sense.
and I could easily see Jace, the Mind Sculptor slotting into that archetype over the older jace. The trouble is the second ability of Jace would require them to also unban Brainstorm as they are essentially the same thing.
They are not even remotely the same thing, and this statement is so absurd I'm tempted to write off your entire post as a result. This claim of yours makes about as much sense as saying that Arcanis the Omnipotent being legal means that Ancestral Recall should logically be legal as well.
Jund and Junk are looking to 1 for 1 you and finish up with a Goyf. Shadow just happens to run discard and some removal, Shadow isn't looking to 1 for 1 you, it's discarding and slamming an unfair cost vanilla beater early. Hence 8 to 9 discard.
In the kind of deck that runs Jace, yes I'm putting it on brainstorm level. The problem people are having with decent blue decks is enabling them to begin with. To do that you really don't want to unban an overpowered card as much as spread that power across multiple cards unless we want a repeat of dredge, where they unbanned Golgari Grave-Troll, then proceeded to print so many cards that support graveyard strategies the deck just went to crazy town.
I see what you're saying, but Brainstorm isn't banned. It's just hasn't been printed from 8th edition on. They COULD potentially reprint tin standard, but I doubt that. It's one of the best draw spells for a reason.
> Tap for a U
> Cast Brainstorm.
> Looks at hand. Grabs spells that he/she may need and return 2 potentially dead spells.
> Activates Fetch Land.
> Library has been manipulated.
Sensei's Divining Top was banned for that reason, no? Brainstorm would also give a lot of power to Delver of Secrets decks. Do you really want the meta to begin to look like Legacies? 3 Delver decks in betwixt tier 1 and 1.5? This is not meant to be taken in a condescending manner. Just silly replying to your post.
I'm unsure what blue may need, because I don't play the color, but it may be a tough call. They could unban Ponder or Preordain, but didn't those cards give Storm too much power?
Something I've noticed from wizards is that when they ban a card, it seems like they have some kind of card in the pipeline that is meant to act as a replacement. Saheeli Rai + Kiki Jiki Mirror Breaker seemed to be the vision of what WoTC expected would replace Twin, but that hasn't actually happened (except standard is now so broken it has been making some people go into complete rant mode, so can't say they didn't try? Not drawing any parallels here between modern and standard), so I imagine if they think they can fix blue, they wont unban something like Jace. If they don't think they can fix blue with printing something new, then they will look at the ban list and maybe try to unban something.
Huh? Unless I missed something.
Copy Cat was a mistake, they missed the interaction, like they owned up to it and said 'yeah we missed that in testing'. Pretty hard to say its a twin replacement when they dont know wtf they even had on hand. The copy mechanics are not even the same. Red has been making copy tokens for a long time, it doesnt mean they tried to replace Twin (they didnt) it just means Copy Creature into a temp token is in red's colour pie, which it clearly is.
They wanted to make something that could do a duplication effect, but wanted to create an effect that was more locked to a specific card. Felidar was a big mistake on their part, but Saheeli herself wasn't. Looking at Saheeli Rai they definitely drew inspiration from Splinter Twin and didn't want to make the same "mistake" they made with that card. The downside is that I think in the end they made a card that is too narrow.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Thinking on this, what I'd really like to see are more fair decks in modern. Jund is basically the only fair deck outside of possibly merfolk (pending definition of fair) and trying to create a control deck in modern given the sheer power level the format holds may require designing something that likely will be game breaking down the road. People are saying modern needs stronger answers, but what I'm afraid of is wizards printing an answer that is functionally the tarmogoyf of answers. It's okay at first, but as more sets and mechanics get released it becomes stronger and stronger, until it literally is the answer that every deck, let alone control decks, ends up playing if it's in the right colors. What form that answer takes can be anybody's guess, but it would have to be a scalable mechanic that gets underestimated.
Jund is the only fair deck? The Death's Shadow deck is ultimately pretty fair (its creatures get pretty big but it's just playing hand disruption and removal until it can stick a threat), Grixis Control and Delver are pretty similar and combine to about 4.3% or so according to MTGGoldfish (which is more than Jund). Abzan is similar to Jund but different in several ways and is very popular atm.
lol, no, bud, you're confusing fair with interactive.
Shadow can play an 8/8 for 1 mana, or a 7/8 Goyf for 2 mana, that's massively unfair. The deck is very interactive, but it's cheating out fat, huge threats for cheap, unfair mana. The deck is good because it's doing incredibly unfair things
Again,
Interactive =/= Fair
No, no it's not. It is no more unfair than Tron. And Id argue Tron has way better threats for its mana cheating. AND Tron barely interacts. I hope you are as up in arms against Tron as well.
Barely interacts? Even before the Tron lands are assembled there's clear interaction (Path to Exile/Fatal Push are removal, Collective Brutality is discard/removal), and once they do, Oblivion Stone and Ugin are sweeper effects (the latter can also be direct removal for smaller creatures), Ulamog/World Breaker are removal, and Karn is removal plus discard (well technically it's not discard but it has the same effect). The deck is actually quite interactive.
Now, it's a deck that's often tough to interact with, but I don't know how a deck running a pretty decent amount of discard, removal, and sweepers is supposed to "barely interact."
In the kind of deck that runs Jace, yes I'm putting it on brainstorm level. The problem people are having with decent blue decks is enabling them to begin with. To do that you really don't want to unban an overpowered card as much as spread that power across multiple cards unless we want a repeat of dredge, where they unbanned Golgari Grave-Troll, then proceeded to print so many cards that support graveyard strategies the deck just went to crazy town.
I see what you're saying, but Brainstorm isn't banned. It's just hasn't been printed from 8th edition on. They COULD potentially reprint tin standard, but I doubt that. It's one of the best draw spells for a reason.
> Tap for a U
> Cast Brainstorm.
> Looks at hand. Grabs spells that he/she may need and return 2 potentially dead spells.
> Activates Fetch Land.
> Library has been manipulated.
Sensei's Divining Top was banned for that reason, no? Brainstorm would also give a lot of power to Delver of Secrets decks. Do you really want the meta to begin to look like Legacies? 3 Delver decks in betwixt tier 1 and 1.5? This is not meant to be taken in a condescending manner. Just silly replying to your post.
I'm unsure what blue may need, because I don't play the color, but it may be a tough call. They could unban Ponder or Preordain, but didn't those cards give Storm too much power?
Something I've noticed from wizards is that when they ban a card, it seems like they have some kind of card in the pipeline that is meant to act as a replacement. Saheeli Rai + Kiki Jiki Mirror Breaker seemed to be the vision of what WoTC expected would replace Twin, but that hasn't actually happened (except standard is now so broken it has been making some people go into complete rant mode, so can't say they didn't try? Not drawing any parallels here between modern and standard), so I imagine if they think they can fix blue, they wont unban something like Jace. If they don't think they can fix blue with printing something new, then they will look at the ban list and maybe try to unban something.
Huh? Unless I missed something.
Copy Cat was a mistake, they missed the interaction, like they owned up to it and said 'yeah we missed that in testing'. Pretty hard to say its a twin replacement when they dont know wtf they even had on hand. The copy mechanics are not even the same. Red has been making copy tokens for a long time, it doesnt mean they tried to replace Twin (they didnt) it just means Copy Creature into a temp token is in red's colour pie, which it clearly is.
They wanted to make something that could do a duplication effect, but wanted to create an effect that was more locked to a specific card. Felidar was a big mistake on their part, but Saheeli herself wasn't. Looking at Saheeli Rai they definitely drew inspiration from Splinter Twin and didn't want to make the same "mistake" they made with that card. The downside is that I think in the end they made a card that is too narrow.
No, unless you think Twinflame was another attempt?
You are looking for cause, that does not exist. This effect is simply within Red's wheelhouse. Nothing more, nothing less.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
UW Spirits
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
What do you consider fair then? Undercosted beatsticks are pretty much the definition of fair. They have no evasion and can be targetted by removal. What would be fair if not them?
UWRjeskai nahiri UWR
UBRgrixis titi UBR
UBRgrixis delverUBR
UR ur kikimite UR
EDH
RUG Riku of Two Reflections RUG
UBR Marchesa, the Black Rose UBR
UBRGYidris, Maelstrom Wielder UBRG
UBRJeleva, Nephalia's ScourgeUBR
Brainstorm isn't banned. It hasn't been in a modern legal set.
It's also not even close to the same thing, one is a 1 cmc instant, the other is a 4 cmc sorcery speed effect on a walker.
GB Rock
U Flooding Merfolk
RUG Delver Midrange
WU Monks
UW Tempo Geist
GW Bogle
GW Liege
UR Tron
B Vampires
Affinity
Legacy
Fish
Goblins
Burn
Reanimator
Dredge
Affinity
EDH
W Akroma
GBW Ghave
BRU Thrax
GR Ruric
I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
No, no it's not. It is no more unfair than Tron. And Id argue Tron has way better threats for its mana cheating. AND Tron barely interacts. I hope you are as up in arms against Tron as well.
RUG Temur Deprive Delver
BUG Sultai Deprive Delver
But I do not think anything for either deck needs to be banned because they help to diversify a healthy format.
'I despise deck X for these reasons, but I am objective about how much impact it has or how healthy it is to have it and i don't just clamor for a ban'
excellent post friend
In the kind of deck that runs Jace, yes I'm putting it on brainstorm level. The problem people are having with decent blue decks is enabling them to begin with. To do that you really don't want to unban an overpowered card as much as spread that power across multiple cards unless we want a repeat of dredge, where they unbanned Golgari Grave-Troll, then proceeded to print so many cards that support graveyard strategies the deck just went to crazy town.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Mmm, dat sweet sweet condescension. Can't get enough of it.
Jund and Abzan can also set up a powerful Goyf for little effort. I've seen Abzan decks with 6/7 Goyfs on turn 3 pretty consistently. Is Abzan also an unfair deck now?
URW Control
WBG Abzan
GRW Burn
EDH
GR Rosheen Meanderer
I see what you're saying, but Brainstorm isn't banned. It's just hasn't been printed from 8th edition on. They COULD potentially reprint tin standard, but I doubt that. It's one of the best draw spells for a reason.
> Tap for a U
> Cast Brainstorm.
> Looks at hand. Grabs spells that he/she may need and return 2 potentially dead spells.
> Activates Fetch Land.
> Library has been manipulated.
Sensei's Divining Top was banned for that reason, no? Brainstorm would also give a lot of power to Delver of Secrets decks. Do you really want the meta to begin to look like Legacies? 3 Delver decks in betwixt tier 1 and 1.5? This is not meant to be taken in a condescending manner. Just silly replying to your post.
I'm unsure what blue may need, because I don't play the color, but it may be a tough call. They could unban Ponder or Preordain, but didn't those cards give Storm too much power?
Much appreciated :).
My thoughts on the upcoming B+R announcement lean towards unbanning rather than banning, and I would be bold and give Stoneforge Mystic a chance to show what she can do (even if it means banning Batterskull). Equipment is a non-factor in Modern unless one wants to combo off with a bowl of Cheerios, not to mention that tools like Abrupt Decay now exist to undermine what she can do to a board state.
Yeah, she is very powerful and unbanning her may be a mistake. But I think she should at least be given a chance.
I'm surprised to hear you guys say shadow is fair, Sam black and Gerry Thompson were calling the deck unfair and proactive
Something I've noticed from wizards is that when they ban a card, it seems like they have some kind of card in the pipeline that is meant to act as a replacement. Saheeli Rai + Kiki Jiki Mirror Breaker seemed to be the vision of what WoTC expected would replace Twin, but that hasn't actually happened (except standard is now so broken it has been making some people go into complete rant mode, so can't say they didn't try?
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Ultimately the DS Jund deck is playing removal and hand disruption and big beaters. Its big beaters are more efficient but require a lot more setup. It's absolutely a fair deck.
URW Control
WBG Abzan
GRW Burn
EDH
GR Rosheen Meanderer
Considering DSx lost a few points in meta share, I imagine the deck is far easier to tame than you suggest. Again, Id like you to speak equally about tron. Im sure Karn turn 3 is fair, to you. Or Ulamog turn 4.
RUG Temur Deprive Delver
BUG Sultai Deprive Delver
Huh? Unless I missed something.
Copy Cat was a mistake, they missed the interaction, like they owned up to it and said 'yeah we missed that in testing'. Pretty hard to say its a twin replacement when they dont know wtf they even had on hand. The copy mechanics are not even the same. Red has been making copy tokens for a long time, it doesnt mean they tried to replace Twin (they didnt) it just means Copy Creature into a temp token is in red's colour pie, which it clearly is.
Spirits
it most definately abuses the hell out of ds and goyf. but what else is bg/x to do with an eldrazi infested meta?
decks playing:
none
Besides, it needs updated text. (Scry 1, Draw a card)
So I will just lean back now and continue watching you argue like little kids.
According to MTG Top 8, Jace, Architect of Thought sees play in about 1% of decks (solely as a 1-of) and Tamiyo sees play in... actually, she doesn't even show up, the last decklist they have that ran her was from mid-2016. If a Blue planeswalker's highest rate of play is a 1-of in 1% of decks, then they already can't cross the bar to see play, so the argument that Jace sets too high a bar doesn't make much sense.
They are not even remotely the same thing, and this statement is so absurd I'm tempted to write off your entire post as a result. This claim of yours makes about as much sense as saying that Arcanis the Omnipotent being legal means that Ancestral Recall should logically be legal as well.
They wanted to make something that could do a duplication effect, but wanted to create an effect that was more locked to a specific card. Felidar was a big mistake on their part, but Saheeli herself wasn't. Looking at Saheeli Rai they definitely drew inspiration from Splinter Twin and didn't want to make the same "mistake" they made with that card. The downside is that I think in the end they made a card that is too narrow.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Barely interacts? Even before the Tron lands are assembled there's clear interaction (Path to Exile/Fatal Push are removal, Collective Brutality is discard/removal), and once they do, Oblivion Stone and Ugin are sweeper effects (the latter can also be direct removal for smaller creatures), Ulamog/World Breaker are removal, and Karn is removal plus discard (well technically it's not discard but it has the same effect). The deck is actually quite interactive.
Now, it's a deck that's often tough to interact with, but I don't know how a deck running a pretty decent amount of discard, removal, and sweepers is supposed to "barely interact."
No, unless you think Twinflame was another attempt?
You are looking for cause, that does not exist. This effect is simply within Red's wheelhouse. Nothing more, nothing less.
Spirits