I mean, yes, once again, blue needs the power level of its top cards improved, mainly in the departments that define the color.
BUT saying control doesn't exist in Modern is just false. It's delirium. Come on. Whoever said people are too weak-hearted, yes. Play and refine decks, jesus. This DS deck was invented by some random dude for no reason, he just created it out of nowhere, wasn't there before. I, myself, well, wasn't the original creation for the ages, but people laughed for some days at me playing Thing in the Ice in a Battle Rage deck, and then the deck was bordering tier 1 online for months.
What I mean is not everything is invented. And same as DS wasn't invented until some dude did, the best control list might still be unknown. I was talking to the guy that passed me the Uw list I used as core for this janky thing I'm playing, and he literally said "it's a moneymaker". He's crushing the leagues. But people will do like I used to do, see him posting a 5-0 and disregard it because well, bad decks post 5-0s all the time. Just like people disregarded the DS deck until a group of 3-4 guys took it seriously, started crushing with it and put Sam Black on it for all to see.
This is not your typical brewer's fantasy of thinking you can just create a marvel by playing with all kinds of jank. But decks just have to be refined, and at times they will fly under the radar for a long time.
I feel the same at times also. I currently have the nagging feeling that people arecsleeping on saheeli. People keep saying the deck is bad but from experience and watching others the deck seems like it has something going for it. An optimal list just needs to come up I feel.
Colt, a quick check shows dozens of Jace's available, he was just reprinted. Your views on price, are your views. The rest of us buy and play the cards.
Yup, plenty at 58+ usd. You people and your swiss bank accounts get me laughing for days. Pay someone enough and they will go walking barefoot through broken glass, that doesn't make it a good idea.
On topic, that is a price tag set by the sellers and community demand on a card not even played in modern. The second that card is unbanned it isn't going to stay at 58 usd. The multiplier on Ancestral Visions was crazy the second that got unbanned, and Jace has plenty of upwards growth potential if it goes modern legal. Unbanning something like Preordain, which is affordable, will impact modern significantly more than a high priced planeswalker that only a select few will likely purchase and make use of due to the price tag alone. It's the same reason a ton of people don't go and play jund. Not a lot of people want to pay 60+ usd per card on liliana along with 80+ usd a card for Tarmogoyf.
You don't need a Swiss Bank account. A solid job and budgeting will get you any play set in modern, easily.
just like real black players don't need green, oh wait. I already stated this but price has no place in the topic of bans and unbans.
It has plenty of relevance to the meta of Modern and the health of the format. Modern masters 2017 allowed new players to enter the modern format thanks to reprinting a needed land cycle and you want to boldly walk in and say that price doesn't matter? I'm not going to ground pound a price discussion if people are sensitive to the subject, however. I'm starting to realize the reason that people are hesitant on discussing it is because of self insecurities in the hobby and justifying the prices they themselves have paid already to step into the format. Having someone walk in and start pointing out how ridiculous it is can start becoming a personal attack on other forum members instead of it actually being a discussion.
Ktrojan, I play merfolk and bought into aethervials at around 46-50 usd a piece with shipping and honestly no amount of play is going to ever make them worth the money paid into them at that price. That's the harsh reality of having a hobby like MtG where the lack of volume and high demand warp the price on many cards, and the fact is players should feel that the money they put into what they purchase is worth the gameplay they get out of it. This aspect is an important part of the health of not just Modern, but MtG as a game. Players have to feel they get their worth out of the cards they purchase regardless of the format. When that doesn't happen, the player populace dwindles and those former players move on to either another format or another game entirely.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
just like real black players don't need green, oh wait. I already stated this but price has no place in the topic of bans and unbans.
It has plenty of relevance to the meta of Modern and the health of the format. Modern masters 2017 allowed new players to enter the modern format thanks to reprinting a needed land cycle and you want to boldly walk in and say that price doesn't matter? I'm not going to ground pound a price discussion if people are sensitive to the subject, however. I'm starting to realize the reason that people are hesitant on discussing it is because of self insecurities in the hobby and justifying the prices they themselves have paid already to step into the format. Having someone walk in and start pointing out how ridiculous it is can start becoming a personal attack on other forum members instead of it actually being a discussion.
Ktrojan, I play merfolk and bought into aethervials at around 46-50 usd a piece with shipping and honestly no amount of play is going to ever make them worth the money paid into them at that price. That's the harsh reality of having a hobby like MtG where the lack of volume and high demand warp the price on many cards, and the fact is players should feel that the money they put into what they purchase is worth the gameplay they get out of it. This aspect is an important part of the health of not just Modern, but MtG as a game. Players have to feel they get their worth out of the cards they purchase regardless of the format. When that doesn't happen, the player populace dwindles and those former players move on to either another format or another game entirely.
You're talking to a guy that's been playing magic forever and has put well over 70,000 into a hobby car as well. Am I a doctor or lawyer no I manage a restaurant and spend my money as I feel I want to. You having an issue with prices is a you thing not a community thing. Players don't want to pay to play a card cool they don't have to, they too can build budgetish decks like fish. That doesn't mean a card should be banned or stay banned because of a price. If money mattered nothing should ever get banned because here's a shocker everyone spent money on those decks that get a ban. How do you think twin players feel when the deck they played gets the axe and there hasn't been a good place to use those cards? It's silly to worry about card value in modern when wotc has already shown they'll reprint anything.
Rule of thumb: when players whine about "control" in this thread, they are referring specifically to reactive permission strategies, or Weissman control decks. That's why trying to console them with reminders about existing rock, prison, or fish decks never works.
I don't think that's accurate, or at least it's not true for me. What I'm lobbying for are what you refer to as the Weissman decks, Grow tempo, and Control Rock. Basically, any deck where you would want to play Snapcaster Mage.
Agreed. This thread sucks beyond belief b/c of the Splinter Twin crowd.
Can you really blame us? It's been over a year and we still don't have a very good UXx deck to move on to. The problem wasn't Twin in particular, it's that they banned the only good blue deck when there wasn't an alternative good blue deck to move to. That really sucks for people who like playing that style of deck.
No, seriously, UW Control is underrated. I don't mean my janky UW Control.
Yeah, I'll definitely agree that UW is better than Grixis Control. I just don't get why so many people play that deck, it's so obviously flawed. I would rather have the better tempo plan with Grixis Delver, or the better late game and more general answers with UW.
I can agree that it's ironic that the people who are complaining about the lack of Weissman control decks tend to also complain about the loss of a goodstuff aggro-combo-control deck that, for the most part, pushed actual Weissman control decks out of the format.
That's because that's not what we're really arguing, see my above response to him.
But if all of the "control fans" were actually control fans, and actually played control rather than Infect, or Amulet Titan, then maybe they might see more control in the meta. But that means that they wouldn't be justified in their criticism of WotC for a decision that, more likely than not, was absolutely justified by an amount of data that the complainers either can't guess at or refuse to consider.
The true blue deck fans do play blue decks, unless you're more concerned with winning, which is certainly true of upper level pros. It's telling when the pros won't touch blue decks, even though it's known that many of them are fans of the play style. Shaheen Soorani, who's noted for always pushing control strategies, decided to play RG Bushwacker aggro at the Team Modern GP coming up. In his article about his decision, he said, "The weakness of control pushed me into the forbidden realm of aggro a few months ago. The inability for traditional control decks to thrive in Modern, and my desire to not let my team of Pascal Maynard and Brian Braun-Duin down at GP San Antonio, was enough for me to look for alternative ways to contribute outside of the Island." This is what we've been trying to get through to people who say that blue decks are just fine. If you play a blue deck, you're knowingly giving up win percentages. It's never a wise competitive choice. That's what we want addressed. I want to be able to play a blue deck and feel confidant about my deck, and not feel like I'm hamstringing myself by playing what I enjoy.
It has plenty of relevance to the meta of Modern and the health of the format. Modern masters 2017 allowed new players to enter the modern format thanks to reprinting a needed land cycle and you want to boldly walk in and say that price doesn't matter?
Secondary market price is completely irrelevant to ban or unban decisions for Modern because, as we just saw, WotC is willing to reprint anything in Modern to keep the prices manageable. Goyf is down to 120 right now, and will probably go down even further with another printing. If Jace spikes too high they just reprint him again.
That's the harsh reality of having a hobby like MtG where the lack of volume and high demand warp the price on many cards, and the fact is players should feel that the money they put into what they purchase is worth the gameplay they get out of it. This aspect is an important part of the health of not just Modern, but MtG as a game. Players have to feel they get their worth out of the cards they purchase regardless of the format. When that doesn't happen, the player populace dwindles and those former players move on to either another format or another game entirely.
Cards are worth what people are willing to pay for them. Maintaining any adult hobby is going to be expensive. My buddy is looking at drones right now, and the good ones start at like $1200. Hell, think how much you spend on alcohol or weed, or whatever you're into. If you're not getting enough enjoyment per cost out of your cards, maybe the problem isn't the cost of the cards, but that you're not enjoying the game as much as you used to.
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Modern UBR Grixis Shadow UBR UR Izzet Phoenix UR UW UW Control UW GB GB Rock GB
Commander BG Meren of Clan Nel Toth BG BGUW Atraxa, Praetor's Voice BGUW
REAL BLUE players don't need RED cards to help them along.
As a UB player, I agree...somewhat. The problem is that UB is simply not competitive. I can run Esper Control or UB Mill, both of which will get me fewer results than an average player on a Tier 1 deck.
There's a reason I've avoided Control decks for the most part in Modern, despite playing at least 50 different decks since 2012. As for Blue and Red, it's really the only color that has given it the best shot in most metagames since 2011.
*Regarding Grixis Control, I don't know why people are SO down on it. It has enough card advantage to outgrind BGx decks. It does solidly vs. most many creature based decks (sorry, not Merfolk). I think the appeal for some is that matches are pretty even and eeking out that extra W/L ratios makes it feel good to some. But most of Modern has at least some matches that are essentially nearly "free wins," and it's hard to pass that up. Grixis doesn't have that and has a lot more negative matchups, which makes it Tier 2 in my opinion. I could go as low at high Tier 3, but it certainly isn't worse than that.
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
*Regarding Grixis Control, I don't know why people are SO down on it. It has enough card advantage to outgrind BGx decks. It does solidly vs. most many creature based decks (sorry, not Merfolk). I think the appeal for some is that matches are pretty even and eeking out that extra W/L ratios makes it feel good to some. But most of Modern has at least some matches that are essentially nearly "free wins," and it's hard to pass that up. Grixis doesn't have that and has a lot more negative matchups, which makes it Tier 2 in my opinion. I could go as low at high Tier 3, but it certainly isn't worse than that.
It's that its best matchups are just favorable, like 55-60%, while its worst matchups are miserable, like 30-40%. That's why I prefer the Delver version because it improves the Tron and Burn matchups while not losing much to the good matchups. I think you just really need to play a lot of matches with it against various decks to understand why the deck underperforms so badly when it looks so good on paper.
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Modern UBR Grixis Shadow UBR UR Izzet Phoenix UR UW UW Control UW GB GB Rock GB
Commander BG Meren of Clan Nel Toth BG BGUW Atraxa, Praetor's Voice BGUW
*Regarding Grixis Control, I don't know why people are SO down on it. It has enough card advantage to outgrind BGx decks. It does solidly vs. most many creature based decks (sorry, not Merfolk). I think the appeal for some is that matches are pretty even and eeking out that extra W/L ratios makes it feel good to some. But most of Modern has at least some matches that are essentially nearly "free wins," and it's hard to pass that up. Grixis doesn't have that and has a lot more negative matchups, which makes it Tier 2 in my opinion. I could go as low at high Tier 3, but it certainly isn't worse than that.
It's that its best matchups are just favorable, like 55-60%, while its worst matchups are miserable, like 30-40%. That's why I prefer the Delver version because it improves the Tron and Burn matchups while not losing much to the good matchups. I think you just really need to play a lot of matches with it against various decks to understand why the deck underperforms so badly when it looks so good on paper.
Oh no. I understand, despite not playing it much. The positive matchups are just slightly good while most of the negative matchups are much, much worse. I alluded to that in my post and also in another post. I just figured that it was part of the "allure" of playing the deck - learning how to eek out victories the best one can in a meta hostile to the deck and with a less than Tier 1 deck.
It's similar to the reason why I like to play Bogles, except that the deck never gets any respect at all, so you are super underestimated and people are always super surprised to see it perform, even more so than Control. The main difference between it and Bogles is that Bogles has super polarizing matchups - can't win matches and can't lose matches. That's a turnoff to many Modern players and in fact the reason many players don't enjoy playing Modern.
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
@idSurge, As an adult with a full time job and a retirement plan, I disagree.
@Wraithpk, I was actually using the most vocal users in this thread as examples for people who won't play their beloved blue.
At this point, talk about the Twin ban isn't even really a debate or close to a logical argument, because it requires wholly ignoring the amount of data that WotC has access to in order to make decisions about bans.
It's now a meme show.
EDIT: @gkourou, it appears your Grixis Control and Grixis Delver links in your signature are messed up. You seem to be looking for cards named Grixis Control and Grixis Delver, rather than decks. You can find the links to the threads here and here, both in the tier 2 section.
@idSurge, As an adult with a full time job and a retirement plan, I disagree.
@Wraithpk, I was actually using the most vocal users in this thread as examples for people who won't play their beloved blue.
At this point, talk about the Twin ban isn't even really a debate or close to a logical argument, because it requires wholly ignoring the amount of data that WotC has access to in order to make decisions about bans.
It's now a meme show.
EDIT: @gkourou, it appears your Grixis Control and Grixis Delver links in your signature are messed up. You seem to be looking for cards named Grixis Control and Grixis Delver, rather than decks. You can find the links to the threads here and here, both in the tier 2 section.
You can't in one post agree that price could be a logical thing to look at and then say twin isn't debatable because of wotc's data.
Do you mean it's not a debate because data showed Twin won too much, or data that it's significantly putting less blue players in the top 32 and shrunk their numbers significantly in the past year?
Rule of thumb: when players whine about "control" in this thread, they are referring specifically to reactive permission strategies, or Weissman control decks. That's why trying to console them with reminders about existing rock, prison, or fish decks never works.
Cards are worth what people are willing to pay for them. Maintaining any adult hobby is going to be expensive. My buddy is looking at drones right now, and the good ones start at like $1200. Hell, think how much you spend on alcohol or weed, or whatever you're into. If you're not getting enough enjoyment per cost out of your cards, maybe the problem isn't the cost of the cards, but that you're not enjoying the game as much as you used to.
You can look at it that way if you want to. The main issue I have with people frequenting this thread is that they have allowed their own financial windfall in life to cloak the problem of high cost in MtG and have grown quietly complacent in the matter, writing off excuses that they have a high paying job to pay for it so all that cost doesn't matter. It does, but hey, I'm not going to argue with someone who wants to keep thinking he is talking to someone in a lower earnings bracket then they are. (not referring to you, but an earlier poster by the way.) Again, I'm probably bringing this matter to the wrong place on the web since the Modern forum (and specifically this thread) seems to attract the pinata whales that Wizards likes to subsidize off of. That tends to be a hard thing to tell someone to their face that they are basically someone else's exploitable money bag.
My belief is that for a meta to be healthy, it has to attract people from all walks in life and be affordable enough that players who aren't walking money bag pinata whales can buy in and expect to be competitive. Wizards succeeded at least somewhat with MM2017 to improve the number of players playing competitive modern decks with the fetchland reprint, but they need to keep going on the reprints to bring down the price wall or the format is looking like it will just suffer a slow heat death eventually. The very statement I've seen from another poster that "there are plenty of jaces on the market and you are wrong about availability" just makes the matter even more clear that people don't realize a 50 dollar card only benefits a very small group of people in magic and by price alone has become unavailable to many players. That is without even going into what happens when the card becomes modern legal.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Rule of thumb: when players whine about "control" in this thread, they are referring specifically to reactive permission strategies, or Weissman control decks. That's why trying to console them with reminders about existing rock, prison, or fish decks never works.
Cards are worth what people are willing to pay for them. Maintaining any adult hobby is going to be expensive. My buddy is looking at drones right now, and the good ones start at like $1200. Hell, think how much you spend on alcohol or weed, or whatever you're into. If you're not getting enough enjoyment per cost out of your cards, maybe the problem isn't the cost of the cards, but that you're not enjoying the game as much as you used to.
You can look at it that way if you want to. The main issue I have with people frequenting this thread is that they have allowed their own financial windfall in life to cloak the problem of high cost in MtG and have grown quietly complacent in the matter, writing off excuses that they have a high paying job to pay for it so all that cost doesn't matter. It does, but hey, I'm not going to argue with someone who wants to keep thinking he is talking to someone in a lower earnings bracket then they are. (not referring to you, but an earlier poster by the way.) Again, I'm probably bringing this matter to the wrong place on the web since the Modern forum (and specifically this thread) seems to attract the pinata whales that Wizards likes to subsidize off of. That tends to be a hard thing to tell someone to their face that they are basically someone else's exploitable money bag.
My belief is that for a meta to be healthy, it has to attract people from all walks in life and be affordable enough that players who aren't walking money bag pinata whales can buy in and expect to be competitive. Wizards succeeded at least somewhat with MM2017 to improve the number of players playing competitive modern decks with the fetchland reprint, but they need to keep going on the reprints to bring down the price wall or the format is looking like it will just suffer a slow heat death eventually. The very statement I've seen from another poster that "there are plenty of jaces on the market and you are wrong about availability" just makes the matter even more clear that people don't realize a 50 dollar card only benefits a very small group of people in magic and by price alone has become unavailable to many players. That is without even going into what happens when the card becomes modern legal.
...for a meta to be healthy, it has to attract people from all walks in life and be affordable enough that players who aren't walking money bag pinata whales can buy in and expect to be competitive.
It is. It does. You've been told time and time again that people from all income brackets can and do play Modern. Your constant complaining about prices and doomsaying are obnoxious (not to mention the insulting notion that I and anyone else who plays competitively are 'walking money bag pinata whales'). Please be more constructive when posting in the future.
Real talk: I literally live below the poverty line in my country of origin and I can still afford to play Magic because it's basically all I have to spend my money on because I live with my parents (it's a two way thing; they're both disabled pensioners.)
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Well, I can saw a woman in two, but you won't wanna look in the box when I'm through.
Rule of thumb: when players whine about "control" in this thread, they are referring specifically to reactive permission strategies, or Weissman control decks. That's why trying to console them with reminders about existing rock, prison, or fish decks never works.
Cards are worth what people are willing to pay for them. Maintaining any adult hobby is going to be expensive. My buddy is looking at drones right now, and the good ones start at like $1200. Hell, think how much you spend on alcohol or weed, or whatever you're into. If you're not getting enough enjoyment per cost out of your cards, maybe the problem isn't the cost of the cards, but that you're not enjoying the game as much as you used to.
You can look at it that way if you want to. The main issue I have with people frequenting this thread is that they have allowed their own financial windfall in life to cloak the problem of high cost in MtG and have grown quietly complacent in the matter, writing off excuses that they have a high paying job to pay for it so all that cost doesn't matter. It does, but hey, I'm not going to argue with someone who wants to keep thinking he is talking to someone in a lower earnings bracket then they are. (not referring to you, but an earlier poster by the way.) Again, I'm probably bringing this matter to the wrong place on the web since the Modern forum (and specifically this thread) seems to attract the pinata whales that Wizards likes to subsidize off of. That tends to be a hard thing to tell someone to their face that they are basically someone else's exploitable money bag.
My belief is that for a meta to be healthy, it has to attract people from all walks in life and be affordable enough that players who aren't walking money bag pinata whales can buy in and expect to be competitive. Wizards succeeded at least somewhat with MM2017 to improve the number of players playing competitive modern decks with the fetchland reprint, but they need to keep going on the reprints to bring down the price wall or the format is looking like it will just suffer a slow heat death eventually. The very statement I've seen from another poster that "there are plenty of jaces on the market and you are wrong about availability" just makes the matter even more clear that people don't realize a 50 dollar card only benefits a very small group of people in magic and by price alone has become unavailable to many players. That is without even going into what happens when the card becomes modern legal.
...for a meta to be healthy, it has to attract people from all walks in life and be affordable enough that players who aren't walking money bag pinata whales can buy in and expect to be competitive.
It is. It does. You've been told time and time again that people from all income brackets can and do play Modern. Your constant complaining about prices and doomsaying are obnoxious (not to mention the insulting notion that I and anyone else who plays competitively are 'walking money bag pinata whales'). Please be more constructive when posting in the future.
I have to agree, there are plenty of decks that are affordable (burn, being a t1 even more so now) not to mention where I play we hand out extra decks for people to play. Plenty of us lend jund, affinity, eldrazi... to newer players so they can see what they like and want to build to. I have built people in my play groups many decks that I let them hang on to for months, if not just give them and they win with them. Don't attack people that have/chose to use their income in a way they want to.
As much as I would love to see JTMS or SFM unbanned why would wizards unbanned anything?
Sure blue is some what weak but is it worth the risk for wizards To give up a Jace or Preordain?
What would wizards gain?
1. Does unban Jace, SFM, BBE, or Preordain sell more Standard products?
2. Does unban Jace, SFM, BBE, or Preordain sell more Modern Master 2017 packs?
3. Does unban Jace, SFM, BBE, or Preordain bring any direct cash to WOTC?
All the answers: NO.
Therefore, I do not expect these cards will be unbanned in a week, especially WOTC recently tries to de-emphasize Modern format.
As much as I would love to see JTMS or SFM unbanned why would wizards unbanned anything?
Sure blue is some what weak but is it worth the risk for wizards To give up a Jace or Preordain?
What would wizards gain?
1. Does unban Jace, SFM, BBE, or Preordain sell more Standard products?
2. Does unban Jace, SFM, BBE, or Preordain sell more Modern Master 2017 packs?
3. Does unban Jace, SFM, BBE, or Preordain bring any direct cash to WOTC?
All the answers: NO.
Therefore, I do not expect these cards will be unbanned in a week, especially WOTC recently tries to de-emphasize Modern format.
100% right this is a game for us. But for them is money.
As much as I would love to see JTMS or SFM unbanned why would wizards unbanned anything?
Sure blue is some what weak but is it worth the risk for wizards To give up a Jace or Preordain?
What would wizards gain?
1. Does unban Jace, SFM, BBE, or Preordain sell more Standard products?
2. Does unban Jace, SFM, BBE, or Preordain sell more Modern Master 2017 packs?
3. Does unban Jace, SFM, BBE, or Preordain bring any direct cash to WOTC?
All the answers: NO.
Therefore, I do not expect these cards will be unbanned in a week, especially WOTC recently tries to de-emphasize Modern format.
First, your focus on the Wizards profit motive is pretty groundless in this case. Most of the Modern banlist changes were, at the very least, made with non-economic reasons in mind even if those maybe (but unprovably) overlapped with theoretical economic ones.
But even if we subscribe to an economic motivation behind these decisions, you are still off base here. Modern unbans would absolutely drive MM sales and increase the hype around that set. Also, these cards (notably JTMS) are ripe for masterpiece reprinting, which would definitely drive sales of a future Standard legal set. Or even drive a future supplemental product. Either way, it's easy to think of ways to monetize Modern unbans and I'm sure Wizards would think of those too.
As much as I would love to see JTMS or SFM unbanned why would wizards unbanned anything?
Sure blue is some what weak but is it worth the risk for wizards To give up a Jace or Preordain?
What would wizards gain?
1. Does unban Jace, SFM, BBE, or Preordain sell more Standard products?
2. Does unban Jace, SFM, BBE, or Preordain sell more Modern Master 2017 packs?
3. Does unban Jace, SFM, BBE, or Preordain bring any direct cash to WOTC?
All the answers: NO.
Therefore, I do not expect these cards will be unbanned in a week, especially WOTC recently tries to de-emphasize Modern format.
100% right this is a game for us. But for them is money.
There is no gain inew a unbanned
By that logic, nothing should ever be unbanned because it doesn't effect their sales. Why does WotC keep track of the modern format at all then? That argument makes 0 sense to me.
I definitely apologize for the harsh wording in the prior post. To be truthful, there are some errors in it as well as I wrote Wizards instead of investors and speculators. The former wants to make money by printing an interesting product while the later makes money from people with dreams they want fulfilled.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
I feel the same at times also. I currently have the nagging feeling that people arecsleeping on saheeli. People keep saying the deck is bad but from experience and watching others the deck seems like it has something going for it. An optimal list just needs to come up I feel.
You don't need a Swiss Bank account. A solid job and budgeting will get you any play set in modern, easily.
Worried Jace will spike, buy it now.
Spirits
It has plenty of relevance to the meta of Modern and the health of the format. Modern masters 2017 allowed new players to enter the modern format thanks to reprinting a needed land cycle and you want to boldly walk in and say that price doesn't matter? I'm not going to ground pound a price discussion if people are sensitive to the subject, however. I'm starting to realize the reason that people are hesitant on discussing it is because of self insecurities in the hobby and justifying the prices they themselves have paid already to step into the format. Having someone walk in and start pointing out how ridiculous it is can start becoming a personal attack on other forum members instead of it actually being a discussion.
Ktrojan, I play merfolk and bought into aethervials at around 46-50 usd a piece with shipping and honestly no amount of play is going to ever make them worth the money paid into them at that price. That's the harsh reality of having a hobby like MtG where the lack of volume and high demand warp the price on many cards, and the fact is players should feel that the money they put into what they purchase is worth the gameplay they get out of it. This aspect is an important part of the health of not just Modern, but MtG as a game. Players have to feel they get their worth out of the cards they purchase regardless of the format. When that doesn't happen, the player populace dwindles and those former players move on to either another format or another game entirely.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
I'm not offended because you are shining a light on costs, because to me the costs are nothing. I have more money sunk in far more foolish endeavours.
I'm offended that you insist it's an issue when it is an issue to you, while the rest of us play on, and buy what we want or think we need.
Spirits
You're talking to a guy that's been playing magic forever and has put well over 70,000 into a hobby car as well. Am I a doctor or lawyer no I manage a restaurant and spend my money as I feel I want to. You having an issue with prices is a you thing not a community thing. Players don't want to pay to play a card cool they don't have to, they too can build budgetish decks like fish. That doesn't mean a card should be banned or stay banned because of a price. If money mattered nothing should ever get banned because here's a shocker everyone spent money on those decks that get a ban. How do you think twin players feel when the deck they played gets the axe and there hasn't been a good place to use those cards? It's silly to worry about card value in modern when wotc has already shown they'll reprint anything.
I don't think that's accurate, or at least it's not true for me. What I'm lobbying for are what you refer to as the Weissman decks, Grow tempo, and Control Rock. Basically, any deck where you would want to play Snapcaster Mage.
Can you really blame us? It's been over a year and we still don't have a very good UXx deck to move on to. The problem wasn't Twin in particular, it's that they banned the only good blue deck when there wasn't an alternative good blue deck to move to. That really sucks for people who like playing that style of deck.
Yeah, I'll definitely agree that UW is better than Grixis Control. I just don't get why so many people play that deck, it's so obviously flawed. I would rather have the better tempo plan with Grixis Delver, or the better late game and more general answers with UW.
That's because that's not what we're really arguing, see my above response to him.
The true blue deck fans do play blue decks, unless you're more concerned with winning, which is certainly true of upper level pros. It's telling when the pros won't touch blue decks, even though it's known that many of them are fans of the play style. Shaheen Soorani, who's noted for always pushing control strategies, decided to play RG Bushwacker aggro at the Team Modern GP coming up. In his article about his decision, he said, "The weakness of control pushed me into the forbidden realm of aggro a few months ago. The inability for traditional control decks to thrive in Modern, and my desire to not let my team of Pascal Maynard and Brian Braun-Duin down at GP San Antonio, was enough for me to look for alternative ways to contribute outside of the Island." This is what we've been trying to get through to people who say that blue decks are just fine. If you play a blue deck, you're knowingly giving up win percentages. It's never a wise competitive choice. That's what we want addressed. I want to be able to play a blue deck and feel confidant about my deck, and not feel like I'm hamstringing myself by playing what I enjoy.
Secondary market price is completely irrelevant to ban or unban decisions for Modern because, as we just saw, WotC is willing to reprint anything in Modern to keep the prices manageable. Goyf is down to 120 right now, and will probably go down even further with another printing. If Jace spikes too high they just reprint him again.
Cards are worth what people are willing to pay for them. Maintaining any adult hobby is going to be expensive. My buddy is looking at drones right now, and the good ones start at like $1200. Hell, think how much you spend on alcohol or weed, or whatever you're into. If you're not getting enough enjoyment per cost out of your cards, maybe the problem isn't the cost of the cards, but that you're not enjoying the game as much as you used to.
UBR Grixis Shadow UBR
UR Izzet Phoenix UR
UW UW Control UW
GB GB Rock GB
Commander
BG Meren of Clan Nel Toth BG
BGUW Atraxa, Praetor's Voice BGUW
As a UB player, I agree...somewhat. The problem is that UB is simply not competitive. I can run Esper Control or UB Mill, both of which will get me fewer results than an average player on a Tier 1 deck.
There's a reason I've avoided Control decks for the most part in Modern, despite playing at least 50 different decks since 2012. As for Blue and Red, it's really the only color that has given it the best shot in most metagames since 2011.
*Regarding Grixis Control, I don't know why people are SO down on it. It has enough card advantage to outgrind BGx decks. It does solidly vs.
mostmany creature based decks (sorry, not Merfolk). I think the appeal for some is that matches are pretty even and eeking out that extra W/L ratios makes it feel good to some. But most of Modern has at least some matches that are essentially nearly "free wins," and it's hard to pass that up. Grixis doesn't have that and has a lot more negative matchups, which makes it Tier 2 in my opinion. I could go as low at high Tier 3, but it certainly isn't worse than that.Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)It's that its best matchups are just favorable, like 55-60%, while its worst matchups are miserable, like 30-40%. That's why I prefer the Delver version because it improves the Tron and Burn matchups while not losing much to the good matchups. I think you just really need to play a lot of matches with it against various decks to understand why the deck underperforms so badly when it looks so good on paper.
UBR Grixis Shadow UBR
UR Izzet Phoenix UR
UW UW Control UW
GB GB Rock GB
Commander
BG Meren of Clan Nel Toth BG
BGUW Atraxa, Praetor's Voice BGUW
Oh no. I understand, despite not playing it much. The positive matchups are just slightly good while most of the negative matchups are much, much worse. I alluded to that in my post and also in another post. I just figured that it was part of the "allure" of playing the deck - learning how to eek out victories the best one can in a meta hostile to the deck and with a less than Tier 1 deck.
It's similar to the reason why I like to play Bogles, except that the deck never gets any respect at all, so you are super underestimated and people are always super surprised to see it perform, even more so than Control. The main difference between it and Bogles is that Bogles has super polarizing matchups - can't win matches and can't lose matches. That's a turnoff to many Modern players and in fact the reason many players don't enjoy playing Modern.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)@Wraithpk, I was actually using the most vocal users in this thread as examples for people who won't play their beloved blue.
At this point, talk about the Twin ban isn't even really a debate or close to a logical argument, because it requires wholly ignoring the amount of data that WotC has access to in order to make decisions about bans.
It's now a meme show.
EDIT: @gkourou, it appears your Grixis Control and Grixis Delver links in your signature are messed up. You seem to be looking for cards named Grixis Control and Grixis Delver, rather than decks. You can find the links to the threads here and here, both in the tier 2 section.
Lantern Control
(with videos)
Uc Tron
Netdecking explained
Netdecking explained, Part 2
On speculators and counterfeits
On Interaction
Every single competitive deck in existence is designed to limit the opponent's ability to interact in a meaningful way.
Record number of exclamation points on SCG homepage: 71 (6 January, 2018)
"I don't want to believe, I want to know."
-Carl Sagan
You can't in one post agree that price could be a logical thing to look at and then say twin isn't debatable because of wotc's data.
WOTC took a tier 1 blue deck and artificially ruined the whole archetype to be tier 2 to tier 2.5 across the board.
The sad truth is, green and black are so much better right now it's not even funny
You can look at it that way if you want to. The main issue I have with people frequenting this thread is that they have allowed their own financial windfall in life to cloak the problem of high cost in MtG and have grown quietly complacent in the matter, writing off excuses that they have a high paying job to pay for it so all that cost doesn't matter. It does, but hey, I'm not going to argue with someone who wants to keep thinking he is talking to someone in a lower earnings bracket then they are. (not referring to you, but an earlier poster by the way.) Again, I'm probably bringing this matter to the wrong place on the web since the Modern forum (and specifically this thread) seems to attract the pinata whales that Wizards likes to subsidize off of. That tends to be a hard thing to tell someone to their face that they are basically someone else's exploitable money bag.
My belief is that for a meta to be healthy, it has to attract people from all walks in life and be affordable enough that players who aren't walking money bag pinata whales can buy in and expect to be competitive. Wizards succeeded at least somewhat with MM2017 to improve the number of players playing competitive modern decks with the fetchland reprint, but they need to keep going on the reprints to bring down the price wall or the format is looking like it will just suffer a slow heat death eventually. The very statement I've seen from another poster that "there are plenty of jaces on the market and you are wrong about availability" just makes the matter even more clear that people don't realize a 50 dollar card only benefits a very small group of people in magic and by price alone has become unavailable to many players. That is without even going into what happens when the card becomes modern legal.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Financial windfall? Give me a break.
It is. It does. You've been told time and time again that people from all income brackets can and do play Modern. Your constant complaining about prices and doomsaying are obnoxious (not to mention the insulting notion that I and anyone else who plays competitively are 'walking money bag pinata whales'). Please be more constructive when posting in the future.
Sure blue is some what weak but is it worth the risk for wizards To give up a Jace or Preordain?
What would wizards gain?
I have to agree, there are plenty of decks that are affordable (burn, being a t1 even more so now) not to mention where I play we hand out extra decks for people to play. Plenty of us lend jund, affinity, eldrazi... to newer players so they can see what they like and want to build to. I have built people in my play groups many decks that I let them hang on to for months, if not just give them and they win with them. Don't attack people that have/chose to use their income in a way they want to.
1. Does unban Jace, SFM, BBE, or Preordain sell more Standard products?
2. Does unban Jace, SFM, BBE, or Preordain sell more Modern Master 2017 packs?
3. Does unban Jace, SFM, BBE, or Preordain bring any direct cash to WOTC?
All the answers: NO.
Therefore, I do not expect these cards will be unbanned in a week, especially WOTC recently tries to de-emphasize Modern format.
Anything, but nothing at the moment...
Modern:
WUBRGAmulet Titan, WUBRGHuman
WUBRAd Nauseam, WBRGDeath Shadow, UBRGScapeshift, UBRGDredge
WURJeskai Nahiri, WURCheeri0s, WBGCounter Company, WRGBurn, UBRMadcap Moon, BRGJund Midrange
UBTurn,BRGriselbrand Reanimator, WGKnight Company, RGRG Tron, RGRG Ponza, XAffinity, XEldrazi Tron
100% right this is a game for us. But for them is money.
There is no gain inew a unbanned
First, your focus on the Wizards profit motive is pretty groundless in this case. Most of the Modern banlist changes were, at the very least, made with non-economic reasons in mind even if those maybe (but unprovably) overlapped with theoretical economic ones.
But even if we subscribe to an economic motivation behind these decisions, you are still off base here. Modern unbans would absolutely drive MM sales and increase the hype around that set. Also, these cards (notably JTMS) are ripe for masterpiece reprinting, which would definitely drive sales of a future Standard legal set. Or even drive a future supplemental product. Either way, it's easy to think of ways to monetize Modern unbans and I'm sure Wizards would think of those too.
URW PillowFort Stasis (costruction)
modern:
U Taking Turns combo
pauper:
UB Servitor Control
xenob8 : you know you are going to have a bad time when opponent starts with snow covered island
By that logic, nothing should ever be unbanned because it doesn't effect their sales. Why does WotC keep track of the modern format at all then? That argument makes 0 sense to me.
UB Faeries
U Taking Turns
BGW Abzan Midrange
EDH Decks
MonoU Sakashima the Impostor and the Clone Army
UG Rashmi, Eternities Crafter
Dralnu, Lich LordUBR Kess, Dissident Mage1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
There has never been a tier 1 white deck and no one comes to cry "white need some love, pls wizards" ....
You want the modern to become like legacy ? meta of 80% of blue decks and boring battles of counterspells ?
+
Unban Preordain will help more combo decks (ad nauseam, storm, reanimator) than control decks.
RG Titan Scapeshift GR
UBWAd Nauseam WBU
CEldrazi TronC