Just something to keep in mind for the people that keep saying "mox opal is fine because it requires a really specific deck building restriction", During the SCG coverage they have been making a good point over and over again that a lot of these cards are fine in specific metas but as the card pool expands you are more likely to run into broken interactions. I'm not saying opal should be banned, I'm way more for trying to fix the format through unbans, but if every single colored card existed also as an artifact version then "the deckbuilding restriction" of mox opal would be a completely moot point. Of course this is hyperbole but it does point out the fact that the deckbuilding restriction diminishes as more cards enter modern. At some point we are going to reach a critical mass where the deckbuilding restriction cost isn't that big of a deal and it will make no sense to have chrome mox banned and mox opal not or vise versa.
As far as I can tell nothing needs to be banned in modern at the moment. What has to happen is an unbanning of certain cards to enable strategies that players want to play and we will probably see that at the next B&R announcement.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
To be fair, the new Death Shadow deck is quite different than the previous version with probe. We aren't seeing turn 2 or 3 kills anymore like we saw before the banning.
They weren't trying to hurt the archetype so much as they were trying to stop pre turn-4 kills which they seem to have succeeded in
Banning cards, again I'm ok with that, its when decks die, which is very rare, that we have issue.
People still play Eggs on MTGO, so even that is sill floating around. I think if Copy Cat gets even CLOSE to a sniff at Tier 1, then people are going to have to give up on Twin. I have.
EDIT: If Infect just walks through this match (up 1 game) against Tron, it just reflects what I'm talking about. The only DECK that died with any recent (3 years?) ban, was Twin.
Twin was left with a replacement. Only difference that it is one turn slower, and apparently that's a capital offense.
If you want to pretend it's the only difference, you are a combination of wrong, ignorant to how it plays out (and did before), the impact of that 1 mana, or intellectually dishonest.
Your bias against Twin is well documented, but a 2/2 5cmc creature is not a replacement that is JUST 1 mana more.
It's a huge difference to how the deck and games, play out, taking it from tier 1 to 3 at best lol.
Banning cards, again I'm ok with that, its when decks die, which is very rare, that we have issue.
People still play Eggs on MTGO, so even that is sill floating around. I think if Copy Cat gets even CLOSE to a sniff at Tier 1, then people are going to have to give up on Twin. I have.
EDIT: If Infect just walks through this match (up 1 game) against Tron, it just reflects what I'm talking about. The only DECK that died with any recent (3 years?) ban, was Twin.
Twin was left with a replacement. Only difference that it is one turn slower, and apparently that's a capital offense.
If you want to pretend it's the only difference, you are a combination of wrong, ignorant to how it plays out (and did before), the impact of that 1 mana, or intellectually dishonest.
Your bias against Twin is well documented, but a 2/2 5cmc creature is not a replacement that is JUST 1 mana more.
It's a huge difference to how the deck and games, play out, taking it from tier 1 to 3 at best lol.
And your bias for Twin is well documented, so I guess we're even there.
I've played against Twin since the deck was standard legal. Just because the deck is now more vulnerable to removal doesn't make the deck a huge garbage pile. If Kiki being a 2/2 was such a huge issue, then why did the deck often combo off with Pestermite? You're just unwilling to accept that the deck isn't Tier 1 anymore.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Level 1 Judge
"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
You don't call "dying to removal" if the removal is more expensive in resources than the creature. If you have to spend BG (Abrupt Decay), or W + basic land (PtE) to remove a 1G, that is not "dying to removal". Strictly speaking Goyf dies to removal, but actually your removal is dying to Goyf.
It's upsetting that people are talking about banning Death's Shadow cards after a single weekend. Yes, I still blame Wizards for introducing this mentality, but we have some responsibility to push back. We can't get in the mentality where any breakout deck immediately leads to ban talk, even if Wizards has a stake in fostering that environment. Let's see how things play out and enjoy a new interactive deck in the top-tier. If anything, it should just underscore how important it is to unban a blue card soon to help the other reactive blue decks compete.
Personally, I'm kind of hoping DS Jund ends up being an overpowering force, just because it will be one more strike against the "ban your way to a good format" mentality vs. "maybe give the format ways to answer threats and find those answers." WotC looks like they may be starting to move in that direction, but I'd welcome any extra kick in the pants.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Playing UX Mana Denial until Modern gets the answers it needs.
WUBRG Humans BRW Mardu Pyromancer UW UW "Control" UR Blue Moon
Banning cards, again I'm ok with that, its when decks die, which is very rare, that we have issue.
People still play Eggs on MTGO, so even that is sill floating around. I think if Copy Cat gets even CLOSE to a sniff at Tier 1, then people are going to have to give up on Twin. I have.
EDIT: If Infect just walks through this match (up 1 game) against Tron, it just reflects what I'm talking about. The only DECK that died with any recent (3 years?) ban, was Twin.
Twin was left with a replacement. Only difference that it is one turn slower, and apparently that's a capital offense.
If you want to pretend it's the only difference, you are a combination of wrong, ignorant to how it plays out (and did before), the impact of that 1 mana, or intellectually dishonest.
Your bias against Twin is well documented, but a 2/2 5cmc creature is not a replacement that is JUST 1 mana more.
It's a huge difference to how the deck and games, play out, taking it from tier 1 to 3 at best lol.
And your bias for Twin is well documented, so I guess we're even there.
I've played against Twin since the deck was standard legal. Just because the deck is now more vulnerable to removal doesn't make the deck a huge garbage pile. If Kiki being a 2/2 was such a huge issue, then why did the deck often combo off with Pestermite? You're just unwilling to accept that the deck isn't Tier 1 anymore.
No, it actually is a pile of garbage, competitively. If it wasn't, it would see play.
You are more at risk to counters due to burning more mana, you are easier to interact with as a bolted creature, and your mana is harder to manage with RRR in the cost.
Do I think Twin is a valid addition to Modern? Sure. However I am not the one making blatantly false claims and if someone posts something false about Twin, then yeah I feel the community should know it's wrong.
It's upsetting that people are talking about banning Death's Shadow cards after a single weekend. Yes, I still blame Wizards for introducing this mentality, but we have some responsibility to push back. We can't get in the mentality where any breakout deck immediately leads to ban talk, even if Wizards has a stake in fostering that environment. Let's see how things play out and enjoy a new interactive deck in the top-tier. If anything, it should just underscore how important it is to unban a blue card soon to help the other reactive blue decks compete.
I think it's the ultimate irony that banning Probe in order to hurt decks like Death's Shadow actually made Death's Shadow one of the best decks in the format while simultaneously hurting the most prominent blue deck that relied on that card for both information and synergy to help the deck in extremely fair ways.
I don't want to think that they have absolutely no idea what they're doing, but they're not doing any favors with this past year's worth of ban decisions...
This, how much biased you think cfusion is, is just a huge truth. Gitaxian Probe just managed to leave us with a slightly worse Grixis Delver, while leaving BGx decks with an EVEN better Death's Shadow Jund.
Has the "play Jund or Go home format" taken flesh?
@Ktkenshinx are we so wrong about feeling a little bit sad and dissapointed about this, we blue mages as we are the only ones that had our decks KILLED OFF? Sure, I may play BGx as well! This DS deck is a blast!
I want a blue unban to help reactive blue decks. I have also posted numerous times about how Wizards messed up with the Twin ban, chiefly in killing the deck entirely and then again in not having any other blue decks emerge after Twin. I fully understand where the blue mages are coming from. But these are all reasons to unban blue cards, not for players to suggest or directly say DS cards need banning. I've seen those suggestions in this thread and in other Modern discussion scenes, and I know it's on players' minds.
This current Modern format looks really great. It's much slower than it was even 3-4 months ago, and there is more diversity across the top-tier. Of course, this continues to exclude reactive blue decks. Even if the SCG Open had a decent blue performance, it wouldn't outweigh the bad blue performance at the previous GP. If no such decks succeed at the SCG Open, then it's even clearer how much the reactive blue mages need help.
For what it's worth, get a few Tier 2 blue reactive decks going, strong Tier 2, and I have no complaints about the meta. I'm watching boggles right now, get close to 7 and 0!
The part of what makes modern a difficult format to enjoy is that you have a format that is supposed to let people feel safe playing a specific deck, so therefore the costs associated with building and owning the deck don't factor in as much when it comes to tournament play. By constantly banning and unbanning cards in a format like this it is actively pulling away that draw to it, and banning a card that turns an entire T1 or T2 strategy into a junk strategy that can't compete is devastating.
I don't mind that they ban twin to try to spice the format up, but they are doing it without first increasing and addressing ancient print runs. Some of the decks out there are using cards that haven't seen a reprint since the days of yore at this point like Mishra's Bauble and others have been printed at really high rarity when they need way more copies out there, such as Tarmogoyf and Aether Vial.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Banning cards, again I'm ok with that, its when decks die, which is very rare, that we have issue.
People still play Eggs on MTGO, so even that is sill floating around. I think if Copy Cat gets even CLOSE to a sniff at Tier 1, then people are going to have to give up on Twin. I have.
EDIT: If Infect just walks through this match (up 1 game) against Tron, it just reflects what I'm talking about. The only DECK that died with any recent (3 years?) ban, was Twin.
Twin was left with a replacement. Only difference that it is one turn slower, and apparently that's a capital offense.
If you want to pretend it's the only difference, you are a combination of wrong, ignorant to how it plays out (and did before), the impact of that 1 mana, or intellectually dishonest.
Your bias against Twin is well documented, but a 2/2 5cmc creature is not a replacement that is JUST 1 mana more.
It's a huge difference to how the deck and games, play out, taking it from tier 1 to 3 at best lol.
And your bias for Twin is well documented, so I guess we're even there.
I've played against Twin since the deck was standard legal. Just because the deck is now more vulnerable to removal doesn't make the deck a huge garbage pile. If Kiki being a 2/2 was such a huge issue, then why did the deck often combo off with Pestermite? You're just unwilling to accept that the deck isn't Tier 1 anymore.
No, it actually is a pile of garbage, competitively. If it wasn't, it would see play.
You are more at risk to counters due to burning more mana, you are easier to interact with as a bolted creature, and your mana is harder to manage with RRR in the cost.
Do I think Twin is a valid addition to Modern? Sure. However I am not the one making blatantly false claims and if someone posts something false about Twin, then yeah I feel the community should know it's wrong.
Know what other decks were garbage? Blooicide, Death's Shadow, Amulet, and and Lantern Control. Until people started winning with them.
Just because Kiki Combo isn't top tier at this exact moment does not make the deck garbage. If the shell around Splinter Twin was that much trash, there is no way a four mana creature enchantment would make the deck as good as it was.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Level 1 Judge
"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
You don't call "dying to removal" if the removal is more expensive in resources than the creature. If you have to spend BG (Abrupt Decay), or W + basic land (PtE) to remove a 1G, that is not "dying to removal". Strictly speaking Goyf dies to removal, but actually your removal is dying to Goyf.
Know what other decks were garbage? Blooicide, Death's Shadow, Amulet, and and Lantern Control. Until people started winning with them.
Just because Kiki Combo isn't top tier at this exact moment does not make the deck garbage. If the shell around Splinter Twin was that much trash, there is no way a four mana creature enchantment would make the deck as good as it was.
You tried playing Kiki Jiki? Jeskai with Resto? UR with Blood Moon? They're pretty bad. I would know because I tried them for months before giving up entirely to focus on Delver.
Sure, they can win sometimes, but so can Mono White First Strike Knights given the right circumstances. Doesn't mean it's a good or smart choice to bring to an event you actually want to win.
Zoo with 4 Jittes would be a ton of fun. Turn two Nacatl with a Jitte swinging in? Brutal. Good luck against it.
Sounds great! Not joking. I'd love to see that opening from Zoo every time I played against it. Have them forego offense and waste two turns casting and equipping a Jitte only for the Nacatl to get killed by me in response. That's great for me. Zoo is a lot easier to handle when the only thing they've done after turn three is hit you once with a 3/3. Heck, even if I didn't happen to have a kill spell, it still slows the deck down.
So like I said, if that were the opening Zoo had against me in every single game, I'd be all for it.
I'm sure the Zoo player would be equally as thrilled. Making you waste your early turns and removal on 1-drop creatures, knowing that you are screwed if your removal runs out, sounds like a great game from his perspective.
How did I waste it on the Wild Nacatl? I didn't have to cast anything until their third turn; I could've done whatever I wanted before that. The point is that with minimal investment, I can thwart what they spent all that time and mana on accomplishing. Maybe your counterargument is that they could cast more creatures and equip Jitte to it, but at that point they've done so little development of their board presence that I should be pretty ahead.
I mean, the main threat of Zoo is its ability to get really fast starts. Jitte is the opposite of that. If my Zoo opponent is going to decide to not pressure me... by all means!
Back in Extended, Jitte certainly wasn't a 4-of in Zoo; it was a sideboard card where they ran maybe 2 copies.
I mean, I like fast, explosive Magic myself, I do. But double T2 kill... I mean even if the deck is not very good that's not acceptable.
It's completely acceptable - Cheeri0s is preying off all these decks that don't interact. Non-interactive decks can get punished too, that's a good thing.
If Jeskai Control vs Temur Twin was what Modern was at the time, oh, thank WotC it has evolved, a million times.
Why? That's actually an interesting matchup where there's interaction and skill.
I mean, just look at this match from Grand Prix Richmond (Patrick Dickmann on Tarmo-Twin vs. Richard Nguyen on Blue Moon). An amazing match like that is what we should be thankful we've evolved past?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
They weren't trying to hurt the archetype so much as they were trying to stop pre turn-4 kills which they seem to have succeeded in
If you want to pretend it's the only difference, you are a combination of wrong, ignorant to how it plays out (and did before), the impact of that 1 mana, or intellectually dishonest.
Your bias against Twin is well documented, but a 2/2 5cmc creature is not a replacement that is JUST 1 mana more.
It's a huge difference to how the deck and games, play out, taking it from tier 1 to 3 at best lol.
Spirits
And your bias for Twin is well documented, so I guess we're even there.
I've played against Twin since the deck was standard legal. Just because the deck is now more vulnerable to removal doesn't make the deck a huge garbage pile. If Kiki being a 2/2 was such a huge issue, then why did the deck often combo off with Pestermite? You're just unwilling to accept that the deck isn't Tier 1 anymore.
"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
Personally, I'm kind of hoping DS Jund ends up being an overpowering force, just because it will be one more strike against the "ban your way to a good format" mentality vs. "maybe give the format ways to answer threats and find those answers." WotC looks like they may be starting to move in that direction, but I'd welcome any extra kick in the pants.
WUBRG Humans
BRW Mardu Pyromancer
UW UW "Control"
UR Blue Moon
No, it actually is a pile of garbage, competitively. If it wasn't, it would see play.
You are more at risk to counters due to burning more mana, you are easier to interact with as a bolted creature, and your mana is harder to manage with RRR in the cost.
Do I think Twin is a valid addition to Modern? Sure. However I am not the one making blatantly false claims and if someone posts something false about Twin, then yeah I feel the community should know it's wrong.
Spirits
I want a blue unban to help reactive blue decks. I have also posted numerous times about how Wizards messed up with the Twin ban, chiefly in killing the deck entirely and then again in not having any other blue decks emerge after Twin. I fully understand where the blue mages are coming from. But these are all reasons to unban blue cards, not for players to suggest or directly say DS cards need banning. I've seen those suggestions in this thread and in other Modern discussion scenes, and I know it's on players' minds.
This current Modern format looks really great. It's much slower than it was even 3-4 months ago, and there is more diversity across the top-tier. Of course, this continues to exclude reactive blue decks. Even if the SCG Open had a decent blue performance, it wouldn't outweigh the bad blue performance at the previous GP. If no such decks succeed at the SCG Open, then it's even clearer how much the reactive blue mages need help.
Spirits
I don't mind that they ban twin to try to spice the format up, but they are doing it without first increasing and addressing ancient print runs. Some of the decks out there are using cards that haven't seen a reprint since the days of yore at this point like Mishra's Bauble and others have been printed at really high rarity when they need way more copies out there, such as Tarmogoyf and Aether Vial.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Know what other decks were garbage? Blooicide, Death's Shadow, Amulet, and and Lantern Control. Until people started winning with them.
Just because Kiki Combo isn't top tier at this exact moment does not make the deck garbage. If the shell around Splinter Twin was that much trash, there is no way a four mana creature enchantment would make the deck as good as it was.
"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
You tried playing Kiki Jiki? Jeskai with Resto? UR with Blood Moon? They're pretty bad. I would know because I tried them for months before giving up entirely to focus on Delver.
Sure, they can win sometimes, but so can Mono White First Strike Knights given the right circumstances. Doesn't mean it's a good or smart choice to bring to an event you actually want to win.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
So, I'll have to disagree with your assessment.
The fact we have like half a dozen 'i just want to play reactive blue' decks and nothing really sticks as top level competitive should say something.
Spirits
Cheeri0sXWU
Reid Duke's Level One
Who's the Beatdown
Alt+0198=Æ
You want to kill storm, you hit Past in Flames, that's the real card of the deck.
Spirits
I want more decks, more archetypes, and more viability.
Spirits
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
So it begins... beware the power of cereal.
Modern - Cheeri0s (building), Belcher (building), Lantern (building), UW Control (building)
RIP Magic Duels. Wizards will regret what they did to you.
The claims of moderns demise ring hollow, it's the best.
Spirits
How did I waste it on the Wild Nacatl? I didn't have to cast anything until their third turn; I could've done whatever I wanted before that. The point is that with minimal investment, I can thwart what they spent all that time and mana on accomplishing. Maybe your counterargument is that they could cast more creatures and equip Jitte to it, but at that point they've done so little development of their board presence that I should be pretty ahead.
I mean, the main threat of Zoo is its ability to get really fast starts. Jitte is the opposite of that. If my Zoo opponent is going to decide to not pressure me... by all means!
Back in Extended, Jitte certainly wasn't a 4-of in Zoo; it was a sideboard card where they ran maybe 2 copies.
It's completely acceptable - Cheeri0s is preying off all these decks that don't interact. Non-interactive decks can get punished too, that's a good thing.
Lantern Control
(with videos)
Uc Tron
Netdecking explained
Netdecking explained, Part 2
On speculators and counterfeits
On Interaction
Every single competitive deck in existence is designed to limit the opponent's ability to interact in a meaningful way.
Record number of exclamation points on SCG homepage: 71 (6 January, 2018)
"I don't want to believe, I want to know."
-Carl Sagan
Sure it is, bring removal or discard or counters.
I've been turn 1 killed in MTGO with Narset, ***** happens.
Spirits
Why? That's actually an interesting matchup where there's interaction and skill.
I mean, just look at this match from Grand Prix Richmond (Patrick Dickmann on Tarmo-Twin vs. Richard Nguyen on Blue Moon). An amazing match like that is what we should be thankful we've evolved past?