No, if Jace/Preordain do nothing, there is no 'fix' because you cannot expect Standard to help. We will be waiting for an instant speed combo to give blue the 'unfair' finish it needs to compete with 'specially' tilted BG creatures.
No, if Jace/Preordain do nothing, there is no 'fix' because you cannot expect Standard to help. We will be waiting for an instant speed combo to give blue the 'unfair' finish it needs to compete with 'specially' tilted BG creatures.
If blue card manipulation was better, I think Gifts Ungiven/Unburial Rites would be a good enough combo. The problem is that since it takes 2 turns to work, it needs to be played on turn 4 for it to end the game in time against linear decks, which means that it needs strong card manipulation so it can be found on time. However, I do understand your concern. That's part of why I think Dig Through Time would be the best unban. It doesn't really slot into combos that break the turn 4 rule and it is one of the few blue cards that has ever been legal in Modern that has similar amounts of raw power to the BGx shell.
Actually, the more I think about it, the more I'm convinced Jace, the Mind Sculptor would be perfect for the meta. Not because it enables big, draw-go style control, but because it helps shore up Delver.
Right now, Delver runs some combination of Truths, AV, and Pia & Kiran for grindy matches. If you replace those with 2-3 Mind Sculptors, you get a better CA/board advantage engine that also presents an alternate wincon, and also also shuffling away dead cards line Mana Leak. Delver could easily gain a few % points in fair matchups off of that. Ux Midrange decks like Esper Transcendent (or just any old Liliana/Jace deck) and Grixis Control would likely gain too, but I'll leave that aside for now.
Jace seems pretty bad in Delver. He's not an Instant or Sorcery so he lacks that synergy (doesn't transform Delver, doesn't fill up the graveyard, doesn't make Pyromancer tokens if you're on that plan) and his mana cost is rather high for Delver decks. You may point to Pia and Kiran Nalaar, but that's a sideboard card and not all that common of one either; also, it can be used for direct damage and aggressive purposes (same thing with the sometimes played Huntmaster of the Fells out of the sideboard), whereas Jace's abilities don't really gel with the deck's strategy. He might be an okay sideboard card, but I don't think that would really help out the deck much.
How would you feel with both SFM and Jace coming off the ban list at the same time? It would at least allow some forms of blue Stoneblade deck to exist in modern. These two cards are always argued on this forum as fine in modern and often mentioned as not enough as seen here with Jace.
I understand this would also power up other archetypes, however would it be enough to push blue?
Please let Stoneforge mystic Free. With all the talk of blue decks i'm still sitting around brewing and trying to make a white deck that can even remotely put up a fight against BGx Ramp and Uxx.
I'd be fine with WOTC trying JTMS in isolation, but if they do i hope it sees a significant supply increase because it's already a $50 card and i can't imagine what will happen if it becomes legal in modern. The secondary market aspect scares me significantly on the JTMS potential unban.
Actually, the more I think about it, the more I'm convinced Jace, the Mind Sculptor would be perfect for the meta. Not because it enables big, draw-go style control, but because it helps shore up Delver.
Right now, Delver runs some combination of Truths, AV, and Pia & Kiran for grindy matches. If you replace those with 2-3 Mind Sculptors, you get a better CA/board advantage engine that also presents an alternate wincon, and also also shuffling away dead cards line Mana Leak. Delver could easily gain a few % points in fair matchups off of that. Ux Midrange decks like Esper Transcendent (or just any old Liliana/Jace deck) and Grixis Control would likely gain too, but I'll leave that aside for now.
Jace seems pretty bad in Delver. He's not an Instant or Sorcery so he lacks that synergy (doesn't transform Delver, doesn't fill up the graveyard, doesn't make Pyromancer tokens if you're on that plan) and his mana cost is rather high for Delver decks. You may point to Pia and Kiran Nalaar, but that's a sideboard card and not all that common of one either; also, it can be used for direct damage and aggressive purposes (same thing with the sometimes played Huntmaster of the Fells out of the sideboard), whereas Jace's abilities don't really gel with the deck's strategy. He might be an okay sideboard card, but I don't think that would really help out the deck much.
Jace can Jacestorm or scry 1 instead of Fateseal... that seems useful maximizing a Delver. The problem with Jace though is Delver does not want to be setting up turn four. Also, Jace is the best blue well oiled machine to the point he still sees play in Vintage. While granted it would be no where the power of Jace in 2010-12ish Standard, such format flexibility to even be useful in the most degenerate format does not bode well for its chances not degenerating Modern.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Vive, vale. Siquid novisti rectius istis,
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
~~~~~
I find any specific claims that Death's Shadow Jund has no bad matchups to be very speculative at the moment. If they meta can't adapt, then we can take action but until then the deck has done super well at one event and as such we should be taking a cautious stance rather than an alarmist one. One GP isn't enough evidence in my opinion, especially when the deck's showing could be explained by good metagaming (which explains why Dredge did well at GP Brisbane, for example.)
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Well, I can saw a woman in two, but you won't wanna look in the box when I'm through.
We know Twin is good in Modern, we do not know if Jace will be.
Why not at least TRY it?
Because if we do, there is a risk it's either too bad/mediocre or too good(unlikely). If it's too bad or just can't cut it, we will be talking the same thing again. If it's too good, it will be banned again(unlikely). Splinter Twin is GREAT but not warping good.
Twin certainly did warp the format. Any deck that didn't have a main deck answer to their combo was unplayable garbage.
People keep talking about Twin like it was a some kind of a traditional control deck, it wasn't it was a combo deck that is a turn faster than Ad Naus and has built in snapcaster beats.
I think the interesting take away from GP Vancouver was how punished Grixis Control players were for not running fatal push in their lists. Andy Wilson ran a list that looks like complete garbage and still managed to get 32nd.
Please let Stoneforge mystic Free. With all the talk of blue decks i'm still sitting around brewing and trying to make a white deck that can even remotely put up a fight against BGx Ramp and Uxx.
I'd be fine with WOTC trying JTMS in isolation, but if they do i hope it sees a significant supply increase because it's already a $50 card and i can't imagine what will happen if it becomes legal in modern. The secondary market aspect scares me significantly on the JTMS potential unban.
I am currently convinced that they should really let Preordain have a go. When Midrange decks are entering critical mass of 12 Tarmogoyfs and 8 discard spells, is Preordain + Serum Visions + Ancestral Vision an unacceptable formation for control decks? They banned the one combo-deck that would have taken the largest advantage of these draw spells (Twin), angering plenty of people in the process and while they did unban AV, Jund effectively entering critical mass pretty much proved that it isn't enough, is it really any wonder why people stick with the land-based decks instead since control is simply incapable of dealing with almost literally anything at all?
Before anyone says Lantern Control & Prison is/is not Control, say we take it as a Control deck, Aggro has Burn/Affinity/Infect, Midrange has Jund/Abzan, Combo has Dredge and depending on one's placement, there's still Land-based decks, Delvers and Eldrazi running about, but none of them are considered near to control (even Grixis Delver feels more Midrange). Control literally has 1 functional deck, so why is it so bad that blue-based control gets a chance? Sure legacy has a not-entirely true bad reputation of blue rampant running about, but this is Modern and if anything it's pretty much the opposite case right now.
Blue needs new cards in Modern. unbanning a format warping instant win combo isn't helping blue, its simply building the illusion reactive blue is good while in reality it is instant win combo that is good and this is already a known reality.
Lets be honest, from what I'm hearing, do you guys really REALLY want modern to be like Legacy where Blue Reigns supreme and due to all the countering, no other color combination is viable unless they're running some sort of blue deck?
Modern would be a way way better format with a very minimal ban list, wait... it wasn't WOTC initial thoughts??
It isn't really that big a banned list if you consider that 8 of them are lands five of which are just color variants, 3 are mana ramp spells (4 if you count bloom). I don't think 23 out of 10,000+ card pool is that big a banned list. Literally like 0.0038% of the cards in legal sets are banned a staggering number that is gargantuan.
I 100% defend the Twin ban. I don't know if someone else does, though.
Why do you defend it? Twin was banned because it pushed out decks it beat from the competition. It was also banned because it supplanted similar decks. Finally, it was banned because Wizards thought Kiki, Temur, and Jeskai decks could do something similar to Twin. These were the three reasons for the ban and, as far as I can tell, it failed in basically every regard. The only are where it succeeded, which no one is really happy about, is that big mana decks got a lot better after the Twin ban. So based on all this, can you explain why you defend the ban?
I wouldnt have banned Twin in Wizards' place but I find modern to be healthy afterwards. Modern was great in june 2016 after after modern grand prix and its great now. Format's diversity is stunning, there are 30-50 viable archetypes any of which can win a gp. It was a bit too fast before Probe ban and Dredge was oppressive demanding a lot of sideboard slots and still being t1, but now format is great again and is dominated by midrange strategies. Kiki-Jiki combo is being played for sure.
Modern would be a way way better format with a very minimal ban list, wait... it wasn't WOTC initial thoughts??
It isn't really that big a banned list if you consider that 8 of them are lands five of which are just color variants, 3 are mana ramp spells (4 if you count bloom). I don't think 23 out of 10,000+ card pool is that big a banned list. Literally like 0.0038% of the cards in legal sets are banned a staggering number that is gargantuan.
1 red spell: splinter twin
1 blue spell: DTT
1 green spell: Pod
1 black spell: DRS
1 white spell: SFM
1 multicolor spell: BBE
et voilà!
Okay, not sure if this is supposed to be "there it is" in a good sense or a bad sense.
My point was that the banned list is not that large or oppressive, it is a vocal minority who constantly complain about pet cards that are on the list.
I also think that in Modern control is functionally mid-range and the the best control deck by far is Jund.
Cause they are talking about unbanning one of the most powerful cards in the history of the game, and we are still casting serum visions
Don't you think comparing a 1 mana spell with a 4 mana spell in terms of power level, is something misleading?
For example, Ponder can be used in Storm deck, can Jace do that?
That's the thing. It seems like the wizard's fear of combo being too consistent has no true argument, i mean, there's no combo powerhouse in the format. Aggro decks are much more powerful than combo decks, i dont think that cantrips would brak the archetype
That's the thing. It seems like the wizard's fear of combo being too consistent has no true argument, i mean, there's no combo powerhouse in the format. Aggro decks are much more powerful than combo decks, i dont think that cantrips would brak the archetype
well every single one of the cantrips on the banned list are there because they speed combo up to much, and when ponder and preordain where legal Storm was a T1 deck.
Let alone Ponder, but Preordain in the banlist is the complete joke. While green has access to Ancient Stirrings, Traverse the Ulvenwald, Chord of Calling etc. - all blue can oppose in terms of card selection is relying on *****ty Serum Visions.
Jace is interesting, but he doesn't help against aggro at all. He also won't prevent big mana decks from smashing Ulamog or Valakut on the following turn. So, blue just needs ways to find answers! Preordain would really help Tempo and Control decks with that. Combo? What are you talking about lol? Splinter Twin is banned, rituals are banned, Gitaxian Probe is banned. Ad Nauseam and Cheeri0s are already mentioned above. Combo is probably in the same coffin as reactive decks.
I think Unbanning Jace would be interesting. People fear it's power once it sticks. But it'll come down turn 4, turn 3 with ramp. Turn 4 in modern you need to have a solid board state ready to take the win, not ready to brainstorm.
That's the thing. It seems like the wizard's fear of combo being too consistent has no true argument, i mean, there's no combo powerhouse in the format. Aggro decks are much more powerful than combo decks, i dont think that cantrips would brak the archetype
well every single one of the cantrips on the banned list are there because they speed combo up to much, and when ponder and preordain where legal Storm was a T1 deck.
Sorry, but this is is a perfect example of not understanding why storm is a bad deck at the moment.
Storm is not bad because of cantrips being bad. If you look at the decklists, you can see serum visions and sleight of hand (the bad ones) but at the same time, you see things like thought scour, which is basically an ancestral recall for the deck, or desperate ravigns, a very powerfull spell.
Storm is a bad deck cause good rituals are gone. If you keep serum visions and sleight, and give storm rite of flame and seething song, you will see why storm was banned from the format in the first place, even taking into account that the deck didnt do NOTHING on the entire history of modern, even with full force.
Like Amethyst007 said, i just dont understand why green has those almost broken cantrips while blue, the color supposed to have card selection has to play cards like serum visions
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Spirits
If blue card manipulation was better, I think Gifts Ungiven/Unburial Rites would be a good enough combo. The problem is that since it takes 2 turns to work, it needs to be played on turn 4 for it to end the game in time against linear decks, which means that it needs strong card manipulation so it can be found on time. However, I do understand your concern. That's part of why I think Dig Through Time would be the best unban. It doesn't really slot into combos that break the turn 4 rule and it is one of the few blue cards that has ever been legal in Modern that has similar amounts of raw power to the BGx shell.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Jace seems pretty bad in Delver. He's not an Instant or Sorcery so he lacks that synergy (doesn't transform Delver, doesn't fill up the graveyard, doesn't make Pyromancer tokens if you're on that plan) and his mana cost is rather high for Delver decks. You may point to Pia and Kiran Nalaar, but that's a sideboard card and not all that common of one either; also, it can be used for direct damage and aggressive purposes (same thing with the sometimes played Huntmaster of the Fells out of the sideboard), whereas Jace's abilities don't really gel with the deck's strategy. He might be an okay sideboard card, but I don't think that would really help out the deck much.
I understand this would also power up other archetypes, however would it be enough to push blue?
I'd be fine with WOTC trying JTMS in isolation, but if they do i hope it sees a significant supply increase because it's already a $50 card and i can't imagine what will happen if it becomes legal in modern. The secondary market aspect scares me significantly on the JTMS potential unban.
Jace can Jacestorm or scry 1 instead of Fateseal... that seems useful maximizing a Delver. The problem with Jace though is Delver does not want to be setting up turn four. Also, Jace is the best blue well oiled machine to the point he still sees play in Vintage. While granted it would be no where the power of Jace in 2010-12ish Standard, such format flexibility to even be useful in the most degenerate format does not bode well for its chances not degenerating Modern.
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
~~~~~
Twin certainly did warp the format. Any deck that didn't have a main deck answer to their combo was unplayable garbage.
People keep talking about Twin like it was a some kind of a traditional control deck, it wasn't it was a combo deck that is a turn faster than Ad Naus and has built in snapcaster beats.
I think the interesting take away from GP Vancouver was how punished Grixis Control players were for not running fatal push in their lists. Andy Wilson ran a list that looks like complete garbage and still managed to get 32nd.
Mono-White Eldrazi and taxes just top 8'ed
Before anyone says Lantern Control & Prison is/is not Control, say we take it as a Control deck, Aggro has Burn/Affinity/Infect, Midrange has Jund/Abzan, Combo has Dredge and depending on one's placement, there's still Land-based decks, Delvers and Eldrazi running about, but none of them are considered near to control (even Grixis Delver feels more Midrange). Control literally has 1 functional deck, so why is it so bad that blue-based control gets a chance? Sure legacy has a not-entirely true bad reputation of blue rampant running about, but this is Modern and if anything it's pretty much the opposite case right now.
UBR Grixis Shadow UBR
UR Izzet Phoenix UR
UW UW Control UW
GB GB Rock GB
Commander
BG Meren of Clan Nel Toth BG
BGUW Atraxa, Praetor's Voice BGUW
We will never have Force of Will and Brainstorm, so it will never reach those heights.
It isn't really that big a banned list if you consider that 8 of them are lands five of which are just color variants, 3 are mana ramp spells (4 if you count bloom). I don't think 23 out of 10,000+ card pool is that big a banned list. Literally like 0.0038% of the cards in legal sets are banned a staggering number that is gargantuan.
G Green Stompy
RG Shamans
UB Mill
UG Infect
WUBRG Slivers!
Okay, not sure if this is supposed to be "there it is" in a good sense or a bad sense.
My point was that the banned list is not that large or oppressive, it is a vocal minority who constantly complain about pet cards that are on the list.
I also think that in Modern control is functionally mid-range and the the best control deck by far is Jund.
Why funny?
Anything, but nothing at the moment...
Modern:
WUBRGAmulet Titan, WUBRGHuman
WUBRAd Nauseam, WBRGDeath Shadow, UBRGScapeshift, UBRGDredge
WURJeskai Nahiri, WURCheeri0s, WBGCounter Company, WRGBurn, UBRMadcap Moon, BRGJund Midrange
UBTurn,BRGriselbrand Reanimator, WGKnight Company, RGRG Tron, RGRG Ponza, XAffinity, XEldrazi Tron
Don't you think comparing a 1 mana spell with a 4 mana spell in terms of power level, is something misleading?
For example, Ponder can be used in Storm deck, can Jace do that?
Anything, but nothing at the moment...
Modern:
WUBRGAmulet Titan, WUBRGHuman
WUBRAd Nauseam, WBRGDeath Shadow, UBRGScapeshift, UBRGDredge
WURJeskai Nahiri, WURCheeri0s, WBGCounter Company, WRGBurn, UBRMadcap Moon, BRGJund Midrange
UBTurn,BRGriselbrand Reanimator, WGKnight Company, RGRG Tron, RGRG Ponza, XAffinity, XEldrazi Tron
well every single one of the cantrips on the banned list are there because they speed combo up to much, and when ponder and preordain where legal Storm was a T1 deck.
Jace is interesting, but he doesn't help against aggro at all. He also won't prevent big mana decks from smashing Ulamog or Valakut on the following turn. So, blue just needs ways to find answers! Preordain would really help Tempo and Control decks with that. Combo? What are you talking about lol? Splinter Twin is banned, rituals are banned, Gitaxian Probe is banned. Ad Nauseam and Cheeri0s are already mentioned above. Combo is probably in the same coffin as reactive decks.
Sorry, but this is is a perfect example of not understanding why storm is a bad deck at the moment.
Storm is not bad because of cantrips being bad. If you look at the decklists, you can see serum visions and sleight of hand (the bad ones) but at the same time, you see things like thought scour, which is basically an ancestral recall for the deck, or desperate ravigns, a very powerfull spell.
Storm is a bad deck cause good rituals are gone. If you keep serum visions and sleight, and give storm rite of flame and seething song, you will see why storm was banned from the format in the first place, even taking into account that the deck didnt do NOTHING on the entire history of modern, even with full force.
Like Amethyst007 said, i just dont understand why green has those almost broken cantrips while blue, the color supposed to have card selection has to play cards like serum visions