Lets be honest, from what I'm hearing, do you guys really REALLY want modern to be like Legacy where Blue Reigns supreme and due to all the countering, no other color combination is viable unless they're running some sort of blue deck?
I really don't care, I just want the format to be diverse for every strategy to be somewhat competitive. Check and check. Will continue to play this awesome format.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
Aggro decks do well following metagame shakeup. News at 11!
Shadow deck has a lot of glaring weaknesses and talk of bannings is, as it generally is, premature and largely groundless.
Really? Which glaring weaknesses?
It's not particularly good vs. burn--even burn with almost no sideboard plans (2-3 paths and 1-2 deflecting palms).
It's very vulnerable to graveyard hate, as in almost completely folding to most reasonable forms.
The Jund matchup is awful, and borderline unfixable. Remember that the jund decks they ran into were not really built to combat the deck and still were rough. Lingering souls seems like a great plan until Jund plays any sort of hate for that at all. I know numerous people have made exaggerated claims about the quality of the Jund matchup--people have done that for years about all kinds of decks.
Snapcaster decks (with decent non-bolt removal) seem likely to be pretty poor; the deck has something of the feel of Infect but without as much protection.
I wouldn't bet money on the ad nauseam matchup being bad but discard spells are generally not enough to get the job done in that matchup.
Anyway, I think it's pretty clear that there is quite a lot of room to maneuver against the deck, and one decent GP run is not enough data to work with.
I know that this will likely never happen, but I'm starting to think that Dig Through Time might be the best choice for an unban. It would make blue-based Tempo and Control decks tier 1 again, but it wouldn't fit into Cheerios, Infect, Dredge, or Grishoalbrand and it wouldn't solve Storm's current problem of relying on keeping creatures that die to every removal spell in the format in play. What exactly are the reasons to not unban Dig Through Time?
I actually tentatively agree with this. IMO, Dig Through Time was banned for two reasons:
It coincided with Treasure Cruise, which is utterly busted and a similar card in many ways
Splinter Twin was legal at the time, and Splinter Twin pilots said casting Dig felt like cheating
I think the best reason for it to remain banned is just how powerful it is in the combo decks that WotC is very leery of empowering. It would be great at empowering blue-based midrange and control decks by helping them find the right answer or the right threat to stabilize and turn the corner (which is great). But it would be just as good at helping Ad Nauseam find that one piece it needs to go off, which could represent a potentially dangerous increase in its consistency - much more than we'd see from Preordain.
Now, if at some point Simian Spirit Guide were banned (not that I think it should be), I can see DTT being a little safer in WotC's eye. Ad Naus would slow down considerably while also likely being forced to rely on Laboratory Maniac to close out the game. Although Gifts Storm would probably profit greatly from Dig as well, since Gifts Unvigen means that unlike the Pyromancer Ascension builds, they don't need to cantrip through their deck or risk fizzling.
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Playing UX Mana Denial until Modern gets the answers it needs.
WUBRG Humans BRW Mardu Pyromancer UW UW "Control" UR Blue Moon
If JTMS does get unbanned, what's the consensus? 2 MB / 1 SB? 1 MB/2SB? 0MB/2SB?
Esper Transcendent would likely become Esper Mindsculptor, as IMO Jace, the Mind Sculptor would be much stronger than the 2-3 Narset in that shell. Esper Draw-Go probably wouldn't touch Jace with a 10-foot stick. Grixis would probably see a new shell akin to Esper Transcendent that would run 2-3 Jace alongside 3-4 Liliana of the Veil (those cards are sick together, although only really vs. fair decks), and a Sultai shell would probably pop up that would do the same thing only better because Goyf.
I'd throw 2-3 into my Delver sideboards in place of the other grindy cards (Ancestral Vision, Pia and Kiran Nalaar, Painful Truths, etc.). I think this is where you'd see the biggest gain by an established deck, as it would be able to out-tempo slower decks like it does now (sometimes, inconsistently) while getting a shot in the arm vs. the attrition matchups like BGx that give Delver headaches now. Ironically, Grixis Control would actually really have to think long and hard about it, as 3 cards for just U from AV is hard to replace with a 4-CMC sorcery-speed spell. But I think they would land on 2 somewhere in the 75. The deck is hurting for alternate angles of attack and ways of closing out games, and Jace does that while also having other relevant modes.
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Playing UX Mana Denial until Modern gets the answers it needs.
WUBRG Humans BRW Mardu Pyromancer UW UW "Control" UR Blue Moon
I know that this will likely never happen, but I'm starting to think that Dig Through Time might be the best choice for an unban. It would make blue-based Tempo and Control decks tier 1 again, but it wouldn't fit into Cheerios, Infect, Dredge, or Grishoalbrand and it wouldn't solve Storm's current problem of relying on keeping creatures that die to every removal spell in the format in play. What exactly are the reasons to not unban Dig Through Time?
I actually tentatively agree with this. IMO, Dig Through Time was banned for two reasons:
It coincided with Treasure Cruise, which is utterly busted and a similar card in many ways
Splinter Twin was legal at the time, and Splinter Twin pilots said casting Dig felt like cheating
I think the best reason for it to remain banned is just how powerful it is in the combo decks that WotC is very leery of empowering. It would be great at empowering blue-based midrange and control decks by helping them find the right answer or the right threat to stabilize and turn the corner (which is great). But it would be just as good at helping Ad Nauseam find that one piece it needs to go off, which could represent a potentially dangerous increase in its consistency - much more than we'd see from Preordain.
Now, if at some point Simian Spirit Guide were banned (not that I think it should be), I can see DTT being a little safer in WotC's eye. Ad Naus would slow down considerably while also likely being forced to rely on Laboratory Maniac to close out the game. Although Gifts Storm would probably profit greatly from Dig as well, since Gifts Unvigen means that unlike the Pyromancer Ascension builds, they don't need to cantrip through their deck or risk fizzling.
Ad Nauseum still would generally be a deck that wins on turn 4. Sure, Wizards probably isn't a big fan of Ad Nauseum, but I doubt that it would actually violate the turn 4 rule. As for Gifts Storm, doesn't it still rely on keeping a creature that dies to Lightning Bolt, Path to Exile, Fatal Push, Abrupt Decay, Kolaghan's Command, Tarfire, Liliana of the Veil, Terminate, and basically every other removal spell in Modern in play for a turn while also dying to graveyard hate? It seems like that wouldn't be much of a problem even with Dig Through Time.
before someone chimes in with DTT is banned in legacy, the quality of card DTT is searching for in legacy is vastly superior to that of modern.
Exactly. While I think that it would probably be dangerous to unban both Dig Through Time and Preordain, Dig Through Time would help fair blue decks more while also fitting into fewer combo decks. Dig Through Time is always a great card, but without Gitaxian Probe, Preordain, Ponder, Brainstorm, etc. in the format I think it might actually be fine.
Sorry to put it like this but you seem to not be very well informed about the deck. It's favored vs Jund. It straight murders Burn. Graveyard hate, yes, as long as you get it through 8 discard spells and not have it die to any Decay or Command. Or just die to a Death's Shadow that you can't kill because you got your removal taken away.
One decent GP run seems to be the information you are running with in regards to the deck, so no wonder are working under those assumptions. But you can go and ask the people that have played tens of games in those matchups and they'll tell you how they go.
Also, calling a deck that 5 guys play at a GP and they go 52-13-3 "a decent run" is quite hilarious. I mean, if 79% winrate over the 5 people that played it is a decent run I don't know how a good run looks like.
I have both watched the deck a lot and watched most of the GP coverage of it. To say "murders" burn is quite simply the grossest hyperbole I have seen in the last 3 pages of this thread -- the deck wins against burn by the skin of its teeth when it wins and when it loses it's not even close. Even the folks who were asked indicated it was not a positive match.
Favored against Jund is something I'd need to see some numbers for. It didn't look like it on camera
52-13-3 is certainly a fine run. But a breakout deck no one was particularly prepared for played by some top level players doesn't really concern me. The typical pro vs. joe win rate is somewhere in the 65% vicinity just with random decks at GPs.
Let's see how it goes eh?
Edit: I will note one reason I am somewhat inclined toward skepticism when pros make statements like "super broken blah blah" is that people said this somewhere last year about death's shadow and it flopped the moment people started running enough removal. It made a similar splash one month then vanished. I'd be very surprised to see the deck repeat this kinda performance. I wanna say it was Sam Black and Brad Nelson right?
I know that this will likely never happen, but I'm starting to think that Dig Through Time might be the best choice for an unban. It would make blue-based Tempo and Control decks tier 1 again, but it wouldn't fit into Cheerios, Infect, Dredge, or Grishoalbrand and it wouldn't solve Storm's current problem of relying on keeping creatures that die to every removal spell in the format in play. What exactly are the reasons to not unban Dig Through Time?
I actually tentatively agree with this. IMO, Dig Through Time was banned for two reasons:
It coincided with Treasure Cruise, which is utterly busted and a similar card in many ways
Splinter Twin was legal at the time, and Splinter Twin pilots said casting Dig felt like cheating
I think the best reason for it to remain banned is just how powerful it is in the combo decks that WotC is very leery of empowering. It would be great at empowering blue-based midrange and control decks by helping them find the right answer or the right threat to stabilize and turn the corner (which is great). But it would be just as good at helping Ad Nauseam find that one piece it needs to go off, which could represent a potentially dangerous increase in its consistency - much more than we'd see from Preordain.
Now, if at some point Simian Spirit Guide were banned (not that I think it should be), I can see DTT being a little safer in WotC's eye. Ad Naus would slow down considerably while also likely being forced to rely on Laboratory Maniac to close out the game. Although Gifts Storm would probably profit greatly from Dig as well, since Gifts Unvigen means that unlike the Pyromancer Ascension builds, they don't need to cantrip through their deck or risk fizzling.
Ad Nauseum still would generally be a deck that wins on turn 4. Sure, Wizards probably isn't a big fan of Ad Nauseum, but I doubt that it would actually violate the turn 4 rule. As for Gifts Storm, doesn't it still rely on keeping a creature that dies to Lightning Bolt, Path to Exile, Fatal Push, Abrupt Decay, Kolaghan's Command, Tarfire, Liliana of the Veil, Terminate, and basically every other removal spell in Modern in play for a turn while also dying to graveyard hate? It seems like that wouldn't be much of a problem even with Dig Through Time.
Completely true about Ad Naus not winning before turn 4 even with Dig. But as Twin and Pod demonstrate, a deck doesn't need to be a turn-4 violator to run afoul of Wizards.
Gifts Storm is pretty interactable as you pointed out, so I think it's probably not really in danger of becoming a problem even with Dig. But I don't know if WotC sees it that way.
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Playing UX Mana Denial until Modern gets the answers it needs.
WUBRG Humans BRW Mardu Pyromancer UW UW "Control" UR Blue Moon
I was expecting Tamiyo, the moon sage, which actually has decent dollar value. They only have two walkers per modern set and they used one slot for a chump mythic. That's not happy days even if you like the card. If they break with tradition and go for three walkers or something than it isn't as bad. The reason it's a bad sign to see something like Domri is that they may not pick liliana because they feel they want to use a different walker not currently represented in the recent releases. In either case, we wont know until spoilers hit and as I said in my last post I am holding out hope that we got a set more like modern masters 2013 and not modern masters 2015.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Deck murders Burn. In, like, people have winrates close to 70% against it over weeks of play.
More details needed. I've seen all kinds of anomalous stats on MTGO. Pro player in friendly league against nacatl burn is a substantial difference from pro player vs. pro player with tuned spell burn list (that most folks are trending toward right now).
I'm not trying to be overly grumpily skeptical here, but I have seen people report the most out there statistics. People were claiming 70% win rates against the field with UR prowess back before the gitprobe ban.
I know that this will likely never happen, but I'm starting to think that Dig Through Time might be the best choice for an unban. It would make blue-based Tempo and Control decks tier 1 again, but it wouldn't fit into Cheerios, Infect, Dredge, or Grishoalbrand and it wouldn't solve Storm's current problem of relying on keeping creatures that die to every removal spell in the format in play. What exactly are the reasons to not unban Dig Through Time?
I actually tentatively agree with this. IMO, Dig Through Time was banned for two reasons:
It coincided with Treasure Cruise, which is utterly busted and a similar card in many ways
Splinter Twin was legal at the time, and Splinter Twin pilots said casting Dig felt like cheating
I think the best reason for it to remain banned is just how powerful it is in the combo decks that WotC is very leery of empowering. It would be great at empowering blue-based midrange and control decks by helping them find the right answer or the right threat to stabilize and turn the corner (which is great). But it would be just as good at helping Ad Nauseam find that one piece it needs to go off, which could represent a potentially dangerous increase in its consistency - much more than we'd see from Preordain.
Now, if at some point Simian Spirit Guide were banned (not that I think it should be), I can see DTT being a little safer in WotC's eye. Ad Naus would slow down considerably while also likely being forced to rely on Laboratory Maniac to close out the game. Although Gifts Storm would probably profit greatly from Dig as well, since Gifts Unvigen means that unlike the Pyromancer Ascension builds, they don't need to cantrip through their deck or risk fizzling.
Ad Nauseum still would generally be a deck that wins on turn 4. Sure, Wizards probably isn't a big fan of Ad Nauseum, but I doubt that it would actually violate the turn 4 rule. As for Gifts Storm, doesn't it still rely on keeping a creature that dies to Lightning Bolt, Path to Exile, Fatal Push, Abrupt Decay, Kolaghan's Command, Tarfire, Liliana of the Veil, Terminate, and basically every other removal spell in Modern in play for a turn while also dying to graveyard hate? It seems like that wouldn't be much of a problem even with Dig Through Time.
Completely true about Ad Naus not winning before turn 4 even with Dig. But as Twin and Pod demonstrate, a deck doesn't need to be a turn-4 violator to run afoul of Wizards.
True, but unless if Ad Nauseum became over 10% of the format, which seems unlikely, I doubt it would face a ban.
I was expecting Tamiyo, the moon sage, which actually has decent dollar value. They only have two walkers per modern set and they used one slot for a chump mythic. That's not happy days even if you like the card. If they break with tradition and go for three walkers or something than it isn't as bad. The reason it's a bad sign to see something like Domri is that they may not pick liliana because they feel they want to use a different walker not currently represented in the recent releases. In either case, we wont know until spoilers hit and as I said in my last post I am holding out hope that we got a set more like modern masters 2013 and not modern masters 2015.
They always use one of the slots for a mediocre planeswalker. Wizards has never chosen not to print the most expensive non-dual land cards possible in Modern Masters. The problem with Modern Masters has always been the fact that good Modern cards aren't printed at uncommon and common in it.
I missed the unban Jace thingy, but hey, if they unban Jace, fine I say.
Wow. If I'm not incorrect, isn't that the most direct positive signaling of an unbanning possibility we've ever seen? We've seen signaling of potential bans, like 6 months prior to the Bloom/Twin ban, and negative signaling about unbans like AF saying Sword makes Lantern annoying, but never positive signaling re: unbans AFAIK.
Of course it only means they're talking about it, which means nothing concrete. But that does indicate to me at least that it's not as done-and-done as the years-outdated "Jace and Stoneforge have a grave in Modern" comment that's often cited. Unless the "As always" means "We always talk about Jace." Hard to tell if it's that or "We always talk about unbans."
I missed the unban Jace thingy, but hey, if they unban Jace, fine I say.
Wow. If I'm not incorrect, isn't that the most direct positive signaling of an unbanning possibility we've ever seen? We've seen signaling of potential bans, like 6 months prior to the Bloom/Twin ban, and negative signaling about unbans like AF saying Sword makes Lantern annoying, but never positive signaling re: unbans AFAIK.
Of course it only means they're talking about it, which means nothing concrete. But that does indicate to me at least that it's not as done-and-done as the years-outdated "Jace and Stoneforge have a grave in Modern" comment that's often cited. Unless the "As always" means "We always talk about Jace." Hard to tell if it's that or "We always talk about unbans."
"Of course it only means they're talking about it"
it means they are listening, the perfect time for the community to talk.
Lets be honest, from what I'm hearing, do you guys really REALLY want modern to be like Legacy where Blue Reigns supreme and due to all the countering, no other color combination is viable unless they're running some sort of blue deck?
Eldrazi? Death & Taxes? Loam? Lands? Elves? There are non-Blue color combinations that are viable.
Now, I won't dispute the fact that Legacy is too Blue heavy and have been an advocate for a ban on Brainstorm for a while, but it's incorrect to claim that nothing is viable unless you're running a Blue deck. However, the idea that you must be running Blue to be competitive is pretty clearly false.
You'll certainly have more luck running a non-Blue strategy in Legacy than you will running a reactive Blue deck in Modern.
While I agree that the tweets might be doing work, I think Jace is the LAST thing blue needs right now. We already have access to a four mana planeswalker with multiple useful abilities to both protect itself and draw cards, in addition to winning the game on its own in two turns with the ultimate. And that's STILL not enough for blue Modern decks. Jace would do nothing but see a monumental price spike ($150? $200+?) and then show up at the mid and bottom tables of FNM. And maybe 1 copy in the top 32 of a GP opening weekend.
Honestly, I think you are right, but the fact I got em low...well.
I think they spike, and he does not a whole lot, but thats completely fine by me because we should not have cards (Bitterblossom, AV, etc) on the ban list if they are not deserving of that fate.
People should be able to play Modern with what they want, and if Jace does ANYTHING to help boost more reactive blue, then thats worth bringing him off the list for.
I've already seen like 5 posts about his cost, its irrelevant to me, when we should be looking at format health and any boost to control is worth it.
Honestly, I think you are right, but the fact I got em low...well.
I think they spike, and he does not a whole lot, but thats completely fine by me because we should not have cards (Bitterblossom, AV, etc) on the ban list if they are not deserving of that fate.
People should be able to play Modern with what they want, and if Jace does ANYTHING to help boost more reactive blue, then thats worth bringing him off the list for.
I've already seen like 5 posts about his cost, its irrelevant to me, when we should be looking at format health and any boost to control is worth it.
It's funny you mention Bitterblossom and Ancestral vision. Both of those spiked crazy amounts (~300% for BB, ~700% for AV) and then proceeded to do very little compared to the "real decks" in Tier 1. I feel Jace would do the exact same thing, which means nothing of any real value to blue players other than a lighter wallet...
I know more than a few people and stores sitting on From the Vault 20 packages, waiting for the set to go back up in price. Sold listings on Ebay are running at an average of 110ish for new, unopened sets. If Jace spikes we will see a "new" supply of Jace hit the market. I doubt it'll do much to lower prices, but it should help cap his price.
While I agree that the tweets might be doing work, I think Jace is the LAST thing blue needs right now. We already have access to a four mana planeswalker with multiple useful abilities to both protect itself and draw cards, in addition to winning the game on its own in two turns with the ultimate. And that's STILL not enough for blue Modern decks. Jace would do nothing but see a monumental price spike ($150? $200+?) and then show up at the mid and bottom tables of FNM. And maybe 1 copy in the top 32 of a GP opening weekend.
But isn't this a good argument for unbanning Jace? Wizards has said they want the banlist to execute their goals for the format while being as short as possible. If Jace will "do nothing," it should come off.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
While I agree that the tweets might be doing work, I think Jace is the LAST thing blue needs right now. We already have access to a four mana planeswalker with multiple useful abilities to both protect itself and draw cards, in addition to winning the game on its own in two turns with the ultimate. And that's STILL not enough for blue Modern decks. Jace would do nothing but see a monumental price spike ($150? $200+?) and then show up at the mid and bottom tables of FNM. And maybe 1 copy in the top 32 of a GP opening weekend.
But isn't this a good argument for unbanning Jace? Wizards has said they want the banlist to execute their goals for the format while being as short as possible. If Jace will "do nothing," it should come off.
If it comes off and does nothing, then it's just more time and more waiting until getting the help we ACTUALLY need. Months? Years?
Honestly, I think you are right, but the fact I got em low...well.
I think they spike, and he does not a whole lot, but thats completely fine by me because we should not have cards (Bitterblossom, AV, etc) on the ban list if they are not deserving of that fate.
People should be able to play Modern with what they want, and if Jace does ANYTHING to help boost more reactive blue, then thats worth bringing him off the list for.
I've already seen like 5 posts about his cost, its irrelevant to me, when we should be looking at format health and any boost to control is worth it.
While this is true, if Jace gets unbanned instead of Preordain, Dig Through Time, or something else that would actually help solve Control's problems, Control doesn't get significantly better, and it takes another year for Wizards to unban another blue card, that would not be good for the format.
Actually, the more I think about it, the more I'm convinced Jace, the Mind Sculptor would be perfect for the meta. Not because it enables big, draw-go style control, but because it helps shore up Delver.
Right now, Delver runs some combination of Truths, AV, and Pia & Kiran in the board for grindy matches. If you replace those with 2-3 Mind Sculptors, you get a better CA/board advantage engine that also presents an alternate wincon, and also also shuffling away dead cards line Mana Leak. Delver could easily gain a few % points in fair matchups off of that. Ux Midrange decks like Esper Transcendent (or just any old Liliana/Jace deck) and Grixis Control would likely gain too, but I'll leave that aside for now.
And it does all that without slotting into any top-tier decks, and with even less risk of pushing combo than Preordain. Seems pretty solid to me. Maybe Jace won't be the Control savior many of us (including me) would like to see, but I can't imagine him not elevating at least one reactive Blue archetype. Which I think is what a lot of people are pulling ford isn't it?
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
It's not particularly good vs. burn--even burn with almost no sideboard plans (2-3 paths and 1-2 deflecting palms).
It's very vulnerable to graveyard hate, as in almost completely folding to most reasonable forms.
The Jund matchup is awful, and borderline unfixable. Remember that the jund decks they ran into were not really built to combat the deck and still were rough. Lingering souls seems like a great plan until Jund plays any sort of hate for that at all. I know numerous people have made exaggerated claims about the quality of the Jund matchup--people have done that for years about all kinds of decks.
Snapcaster decks (with decent non-bolt removal) seem likely to be pretty poor; the deck has something of the feel of Infect but without as much protection.
I wouldn't bet money on the ad nauseam matchup being bad but discard spells are generally not enough to get the job done in that matchup.
Anyway, I think it's pretty clear that there is quite a lot of room to maneuver against the deck, and one decent GP run is not enough data to work with.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
I actually tentatively agree with this. IMO, Dig Through Time was banned for two reasons:
I think the best reason for it to remain banned is just how powerful it is in the combo decks that WotC is very leery of empowering. It would be great at empowering blue-based midrange and control decks by helping them find the right answer or the right threat to stabilize and turn the corner (which is great). But it would be just as good at helping Ad Nauseam find that one piece it needs to go off, which could represent a potentially dangerous increase in its consistency - much more than we'd see from Preordain.
Now, if at some point Simian Spirit Guide were banned (not that I think it should be), I can see DTT being a little safer in WotC's eye. Ad Naus would slow down considerably while also likely being forced to rely on Laboratory Maniac to close out the game. Although Gifts Storm would probably profit greatly from Dig as well, since Gifts Unvigen means that unlike the Pyromancer Ascension builds, they don't need to cantrip through their deck or risk fizzling.
WUBRG Humans
BRW Mardu Pyromancer
UW UW "Control"
UR Blue Moon
Thanks. Forgot to mention that. Same reason Ponder was fine for Standard and restricted in Vintage of all formats.
Esper Transcendent would likely become Esper Mindsculptor, as IMO Jace, the Mind Sculptor would be much stronger than the 2-3 Narset in that shell. Esper Draw-Go probably wouldn't touch Jace with a 10-foot stick. Grixis would probably see a new shell akin to Esper Transcendent that would run 2-3 Jace alongside 3-4 Liliana of the Veil (those cards are sick together, although only really vs. fair decks), and a Sultai shell would probably pop up that would do the same thing only better because Goyf.
I'd throw 2-3 into my Delver sideboards in place of the other grindy cards (Ancestral Vision, Pia and Kiran Nalaar, Painful Truths, etc.). I think this is where you'd see the biggest gain by an established deck, as it would be able to out-tempo slower decks like it does now (sometimes, inconsistently) while getting a shot in the arm vs. the attrition matchups like BGx that give Delver headaches now. Ironically, Grixis Control would actually really have to think long and hard about it, as 3 cards for just U from AV is hard to replace with a 4-CMC sorcery-speed spell. But I think they would land on 2 somewhere in the 75. The deck is hurting for alternate angles of attack and ways of closing out games, and Jace does that while also having other relevant modes.
WUBRG Humans
BRW Mardu Pyromancer
UW UW "Control"
UR Blue Moon
Ad Nauseum still would generally be a deck that wins on turn 4. Sure, Wizards probably isn't a big fan of Ad Nauseum, but I doubt that it would actually violate the turn 4 rule. As for Gifts Storm, doesn't it still rely on keeping a creature that dies to Lightning Bolt, Path to Exile, Fatal Push, Abrupt Decay, Kolaghan's Command, Tarfire, Liliana of the Veil, Terminate, and basically every other removal spell in Modern in play for a turn while also dying to graveyard hate? It seems like that wouldn't be much of a problem even with Dig Through Time.
Exactly. While I think that it would probably be dangerous to unban both Dig Through Time and Preordain, Dig Through Time would help fair blue decks more while also fitting into fewer combo decks. Dig Through Time is always a great card, but without Gitaxian Probe, Preordain, Ponder, Brainstorm, etc. in the format I think it might actually be fine.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
I have both watched the deck a lot and watched most of the GP coverage of it. To say "murders" burn is quite simply the grossest hyperbole I have seen in the last 3 pages of this thread -- the deck wins against burn by the skin of its teeth when it wins and when it loses it's not even close. Even the folks who were asked indicated it was not a positive match.
Favored against Jund is something I'd need to see some numbers for. It didn't look like it on camera
52-13-3 is certainly a fine run. But a breakout deck no one was particularly prepared for played by some top level players doesn't really concern me. The typical pro vs. joe win rate is somewhere in the 65% vicinity just with random decks at GPs.
Let's see how it goes eh?
Edit: I will note one reason I am somewhat inclined toward skepticism when pros make statements like "super broken blah blah" is that people said this somewhere last year about death's shadow and it flopped the moment people started running enough removal. It made a similar splash one month then vanished. I'd be very surprised to see the deck repeat this kinda performance. I wanna say it was Sam Black and Brad Nelson right?
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
Completely true about Ad Naus not winning before turn 4 even with Dig. But as Twin and Pod demonstrate, a deck doesn't need to be a turn-4 violator to run afoul of Wizards.
Gifts Storm is pretty interactable as you pointed out, so I think it's probably not really in danger of becoming a problem even with Dig. But I don't know if WotC sees it that way.
WUBRG Humans
BRW Mardu Pyromancer
UW UW "Control"
UR Blue Moon
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
More details needed. I've seen all kinds of anomalous stats on MTGO. Pro player in friendly league against nacatl burn is a substantial difference from pro player vs. pro player with tuned spell burn list (that most folks are trending toward right now).
I'm not trying to be overly grumpily skeptical here, but I have seen people report the most out there statistics. People were claiming 70% win rates against the field with UR prowess back before the gitprobe ban.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
True, but unless if Ad Nauseum became over 10% of the format, which seems unlikely, I doubt it would face a ban.
They always use one of the slots for a mediocre planeswalker. Wizards has never chosen not to print the most expensive non-dual land cards possible in Modern Masters. The problem with Modern Masters has always been the fact that good Modern cards aren't printed at uncommon and common in it.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Wow. If I'm not incorrect, isn't that the most direct positive signaling of an unbanning possibility we've ever seen? We've seen signaling of potential bans, like 6 months prior to the Bloom/Twin ban, and negative signaling about unbans like AF saying Sword makes Lantern annoying, but never positive signaling re: unbans AFAIK.
Of course it only means they're talking about it, which means nothing concrete. But that does indicate to me at least that it's not as done-and-done as the years-outdated "Jace and Stoneforge have a grave in Modern" comment that's often cited. Unless the "As always" means "We always talk about Jace." Hard to tell if it's that or "We always talk about unbans."
WUBRG Humans
BRW Mardu Pyromancer
UW UW "Control"
UR Blue Moon
"Of course it only means they're talking about it"
it means they are listening, the perfect time for the community to talk.
decks playing:
none
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
Spirits
Eldrazi? Death & Taxes? Loam? Lands? Elves? There are non-Blue color combinations that are viable.
Now, I won't dispute the fact that Legacy is too Blue heavy and have been an advocate for a ban on Brainstorm for a while, but it's incorrect to claim that nothing is viable unless you're running a Blue deck. However, the idea that you must be running Blue to be competitive is pretty clearly false.
You'll certainly have more luck running a non-Blue strategy in Legacy than you will running a reactive Blue deck in Modern.
While I agree that the tweets might be doing work, I think Jace is the LAST thing blue needs right now. We already have access to a four mana planeswalker with multiple useful abilities to both protect itself and draw cards, in addition to winning the game on its own in two turns with the ultimate. And that's STILL not enough for blue Modern decks. Jace would do nothing but see a monumental price spike ($150? $200+?) and then show up at the mid and bottom tables of FNM. And maybe 1 copy in the top 32 of a GP opening weekend.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
I think they spike, and he does not a whole lot, but thats completely fine by me because we should not have cards (Bitterblossom, AV, etc) on the ban list if they are not deserving of that fate.
People should be able to play Modern with what they want, and if Jace does ANYTHING to help boost more reactive blue, then thats worth bringing him off the list for.
I've already seen like 5 posts about his cost, its irrelevant to me, when we should be looking at format health and any boost to control is worth it.
Spirits
Piloted by MTG bent card, and the first person I ever faced at FNM, Anthony Lee.
Although I know he hates modern and he might of played it as a joke.
Pioneer:UR Pheonix
Modern:U Mono U Tron
EDH
GB Glissa, the traitor: Army of Cans
UW Dragonlord Ojutai: Dragonlord NOjutai
UWGDerevi, Empyrial Tactician "you cannot fight the storm"
R Zirilan of the claw. The solution to every problem is dragons
UB Etrata, the Silencer Cloning assassination
Peasant cube: Cards I own
It's funny you mention Bitterblossom and Ancestral vision. Both of those spiked crazy amounts (~300% for BB, ~700% for AV) and then proceeded to do very little compared to the "real decks" in Tier 1. I feel Jace would do the exact same thing, which means nothing of any real value to blue players other than a lighter wallet...
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
Cheeri0sXWU
Reid Duke's Level One
Who's the Beatdown
Alt+0198=Æ
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
If it comes off and does nothing, then it's just more time and more waiting until getting the help we ACTUALLY need. Months? Years?
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
While this is true, if Jace gets unbanned instead of Preordain, Dig Through Time, or something else that would actually help solve Control's problems, Control doesn't get significantly better, and it takes another year for Wizards to unban another blue card, that would not be good for the format.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Right now, Delver runs some combination of Truths, AV, and Pia & Kiran in the board for grindy matches. If you replace those with 2-3 Mind Sculptors, you get a better CA/board advantage engine that also presents an alternate wincon, and also also shuffling away dead cards line Mana Leak. Delver could easily gain a few % points in fair matchups off of that. Ux Midrange decks like Esper Transcendent (or just any old Liliana/Jace deck) and Grixis Control would likely gain too, but I'll leave that aside for now.
And it does all that without slotting into any top-tier decks, and with even less risk of pushing combo than Preordain. Seems pretty solid to me. Maybe Jace won't be the Control savior many of us (including me) would like to see, but I can't imagine him not elevating at least one reactive Blue archetype. Which I think is what a lot of people are pulling ford isn't it?
WUBRG Humans
BRW Mardu Pyromancer
UW UW "Control"
UR Blue Moon