I'll start to worry when 2 or more of the top 8 at GP Vancouver are Cheeri0s. Since the combo folds to 1 cmc removal I'm not going to hold my breath.
(and this is coming from a Cheeri0s player; the only deck I've 0-4'd a FNM with).
Interesting I've had a much different experience with the deck. Even if they killed my guy I still seemed to combo off by turn 4 at the latest with gross regularity. Then Again a couple of those games were because i made an army on turn 3 off a monastery mentor maindeck and then retracted and repeated on turn 4 to kill my opponents. I guess it really is all personal experience but I agree with Sheridan the deck is busted. The real tell will be what happens at the GP on camera and especially in the top 8.
I wouldn't be surprised if it was opal they ended up hitting if Cheerios starts putting up T1 numbers.
Tron, Eldrazi Tron, Bant Eldrazi, Titanshift and Titan Breach are half of the mtgo top10 right now. That this would happen was completely obvious to anyone not under the delusion that Burn and Affinity would keep them in check. I'm sure interactive players that clamored for the Probe ban are having an amazing time interacting with those 5 decks.
Now what?
Now we wait literally four days until we have GP results. If those results reflect that reality, then we argue for unbans to help out struggling decks. Only if the unbans failed would I then advocate for bans. Bans should always be last resorts when other options have failed.
Unban Splinter Twin in April and forget about more BS bans. Let the players play what they want between your initial guidelines and limits proposed.
If you are so afraid of Ancestral Visions and Blood Moon, go for the last BS ban and chop Deceiver Exarch.
Then you open the floodgates for more "fair" unbans like Bloodbraid Elf.
I'm calling it. If they don't unban Twin or reprint Counterspell or FOW lite, we will se many more bans and the format will be completely abandoned by the next 2 years.
Tron, Eldrazi Tron, Bant Eldrazi, Titanshift and Titan Breach are half of the mtgo top10 right now. That this would happen was completely obvious to anyone not under the delusion that Burn and Affinity would keep them in check. I'm sure interactive players that clamored for the Probe ban are having an amazing time interacting with those 5 decks.
Now what?
Now we wait literally four days until we have GP results. If those results reflect that reality, then we argue for unbans to help out struggling decks. Only if the unbans failed would I then advocate for bans. Bans should always be last resorts when other options have failed.
If only Wizards thought the same way you do.
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Modern RGTron UGInfect URStorm WUBRAd Nauseam BRGrishoalbrand URGScapeshift WBGAbzan Company WUBRGAmulet Titan BRGLiving End WGBogles
Unban Splinter Twin in April and forget about more BS bans. Let the players play what they want between your initial guidelines and limits proposed.
If you are so afraid of Ancestral Visions and Blood Moon, go for the last BS ban and chop Deceiver Exarch.
Then you open the floodgates for more "fair" unbans like Bloodbraid Elf.
I'm calling it. If they don't unban Twin or reprint Counterspell or FOW lite, we will se many more bans and the format will be completely abandoned by the next 2 years.
your not wrong. This big/fast mana thing is becoming way to prevalent. Can't wait for GP weekend hopefully we will see different.
Tron, Eldrazi Tron, Bant Eldrazi, Titanshift and Titan Breach are half of the mtgo top10 right now. That this would happen was completely obvious to anyone not under the delusion that Burn and Affinity would keep them in check. I'm sure interactive players that clamored for the Probe ban are having an amazing time interacting with those 5 decks.
Now what?
Now we wait literally four days until we have GP results. If those results reflect that reality, then we argue for unbans to help out struggling decks. Only if the unbans failed would I then advocate for bans. Bans should always be last resorts when other options have failed.
Agree. But then, I'm not sure any unbans would actually help pushing those decks down. Yes, Probe would instantly push them down, but it has just been banned and even if this was not the case it represents reviving old problems to solve present ones.
Fast decks, the ones that survive and some new ones, are decent vs those big mana decks anyway. So we go back to interactive decks being the ones with an even larger problem. When you just cripple or murder some good matchups for those decks, all this was to be expected.
So how do we help those interactive decks? Is there anything in the banlist that truly helps? Well there's something that would certainly help blue decks: Splinter Twin. I personally hope Wizards is 100% convinced of the toxicity of that card so as to never, ever, until the heat death of the universe even consider beginning to think about the possibility of unbanning it.
And then... I see nothing else there.
EDIT: What I meant with this, is that all this goes back to what I've been saying for months. The problem in Modern, that creates all the rest of the problems, is that interactive decks (and within them, especially blue ones) are screwed vs Tron, Eldrazi and Valakut decks on a fundamental level. And no printable card that we can conceive will fix that, because the imbalance is, again, fundamental. Those decks can get pushed down in times of busted decks or varied quality fast ones and let some interactive decks breath, but in the end, there's a steel ceiling to how relevant interactive decks can be in the format.
The more time pases, the more I play, the more I analyze Modern, the more I think some of those decks needs to die. I'm not thinking all of them, or even a particular one. But kill at least one, say, kill Eldrazi Temple so that sector of the format is only represented by Tron and Valakut. Or something like that.
This doesn't have to do with what I play, the more Tron and Valakut decks the merrier for me personally. It's just that I think it's what is preventing Modern to ever be balanced, and interactive (blue) decks from having a decent positioning nowadays.
and I agree wholeheartedly with that argument. I see nothing on the ban list other than twin that helps vs these decks. And quite frankly I think wizards should just give us better answers. If they don't either give us twin or counterspell by next January, and these anti fair decks stay soo prevalent I will be arguing for bans. Eldrazi temple is the first in my mind. but honestly ssg and opal probably have the top spots on that one.
'Slams head in door frame' oh for the love of all that is good and holy, please just unban Twin, print Counterspell and for all I care reprint Sinkhole. Just shape the meta where Tron can exist and people stop hating on it. I don't understand why people are so determined to turn the format into BGx mirrors
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Project Booster Fun makes it less fun to open a booster.
'Slams head in door frame' oh for the love of all that is good and holy, please just unban Twin, print Counterspell and for all I care reprint Sinkhole. Just shape the meta where Tron can exist and people stop hating on it. I don't understand why people are so determined to turn the format into BGx mirrors
bg/x mirrors eh? you think thats all big/fast mana decks suppress? bg/x isnt the problem, its the mold in which we should build modern around. its the healthiest form of a fun and interactive deck in all of tier 1 currently, and as long as it doesn't rise too high in meta share its completely fine. "facepalm" how do you not get this?
'Slams head in door frame' oh for the love of all that is good and holy, please just unban Twin, print Counterspell and for all I care reprint Sinkhole. Just shape the meta where Tron can exist and people stop hating on it. I don't understand why people are so determined to turn the format into BGx mirrors
If you think that's why people are arguing for a Twin unban, then you didn't get nothing from the posts.
I hadn't realized half the top 8 was ramp decks. That's a huge problem.
Sigh
It looks unsafe to buy into eldrazi now, in my eyes.
I wish hellfire would stop suggesting absurd bans. Who's even complaining about mox Opal? It comes off very biased, if you want magic to be so fair, go play standard (when twin is banned in standard along with mardu vehicles).
I never begged for a probe ban, I wanted dredge banned, along with become immense banned. I by no means wanted to lose my good matchups.
It just seems like modern would be improved with twin unbanned. Would twin be an issue with ancestral vision though?
I hadn't realized half the top 8 was ramp decks. That's a huge problem.
Sigh
It looks unsafe to buy into eldrazi now, in my eyes.
I wish hellfire would stop suggesting absurd bans. Who's even complaining about mox Opal? It comes off very biased, if you want magic to be so fair, go play standard (when twin is banned in standard along with mardu vehicles).
I never begged for a probe ban, I wanted dredge banned, along with become immense banned. I by no means wanted to lose my good matchups.
It just seems like modern would be improved with twin unbanned. Would twin be an issue with ancestral vision though?
mox opal and ssg are broken and will some day down the road eat bans , some people dont like to hear the truth.
if you want magic to be so fair, go play standard"
ive invested 5k into modern so no, I refuse to accept modern as it is and will never stop pushing for fixes, wether it be bans unbans or prints.
I'm a big believer in Counterspell. Not that it would fix the issue I was talking about, but it would certainly help. Sadly, it seems that there's just not a path for it to get into the format.
EDIT: I'm just checking my followed streams, 4 players, 8 decks. 2 are playing Eldrazi Tron mirrors. Another one is playing Eldrazi Tron vs Tron. The last one is playing vs Tron. Modern is just laughing at me.
If this bears out, it will really underscore the problem I was worried about with the Probe ban. That being that WotC is clamping down on the speed of aggro decks, but in large part the reason aggro goes so all-in is that the decks it's supposed to police are so consistent and powerful that you need to go under them ASAP. Which was fine in and of itself, but now it looks like the turn-4 rule and lack of good answers may effectively cripple the meta's ability to self-regulate.
The Probe ban put aggro in the position of "Race as hard as you can so you have a chance at winning. But don't get good at it, or you'll get banned." I really hope the meta can sort itself out, because if not, the only ways of correcting course I can see are:
1) Get good countermagic or better answers to land-based strategies (not likely for months or more likely years)
2) Unban Probe and relax the Turn-4 Rule
3) Start nerfing the consistency of big-mana decks
4) Unban Twin
5) Let the wound fester
1 would be great, but it's a long shot. 2 seems impossible right now. 3 perpetuates the ban-hungry balance cycle, leveraging more bans to compensate for bans, leading to more bans to clean up the mess the last ban left. 4 is the most likely non-horrible solution, but it brings its own pretty significant problems even if you axe Twin (although maybe that would be sufficient to curb things). And of course 5 is unacceptable.
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Playing UX Mana Denial until Modern gets the answers it needs.
WUBRG Humans BRW Mardu Pyromancer UW UW "Control" UR Blue Moon
Cheerios doesn't mean banning Opal, you ban sram or paladin.
You're being absurd asking for an Opal ban, you would be hitting affinity and lantern all at the same time.
You complained about eldrazi temple, so literally you're asking for the entire deck to die. Eldrazi is a tier 4 deck if you ban temple, you play fair magic so it's suspicious what you're complaining about
Have you asked for a tron land ban too, that I'm not sure I remember reading by you
You basically want Gbx decks to be all that's left of modern, and I definitely resent that
I think holydiva is right on in the analysis of what is keep Control down.
Many of us have said this for over a year. There are enough decks that are out there which trump anything but an instant win, and they all have tron and/or Eldrazi.
It's not as if those creatures are fair, they are above curve all over the place, and when you get to cheat on the costs, it's comical. Then you give them then insanity that is the tutor land package Tron decks run...and forget it.
I've lost after GQ + Extraction on a tron land, he just tutored up Temple, and started dropping TKS, and eventually World Breaker, it's just stupid.
I hadn't realized half the top 8 was ramp decks. That's a huge problem.
Sigh
It looks unsafe to buy into eldrazi now, in my eyes.
I wish hellfire would stop suggesting absurd bans. Who's even complaining about mox Opal? It comes off very biased, if you want magic to be so fair, go play standard (when twin is banned in standard along with mardu vehicles).
I never begged for a probe ban, I wanted dredge banned, along with become immense banned. I by no means wanted to lose my good matchups.
It just seems like modern would be improved with twin unbanned. Would twin be an issue with ancestral vision though?
mox opal and ssg are broken and will some day down the road eat bans , some people dont like to hear the truth.
if you want magic to be so fair, go play standard"
ive invested 5k into modern so no, I refuse to accept modern as it is and will never stop pushing for fixes, wether it be bans unbans or prints.
twin probably wont see an unban anytime soon imo.
Right. SSG is so broken that it rarely stumbles into tier 1 deck lists.
I think holydiva is right on in the analysis of what is keep Control down.
Many of us have said this for over a year. There are enough decks that are out there which trump anything but an instant win, and they all have tron and/or Eldrazi.
It's not as if those creatures are fair, they are above curve all over the place, and when you get to cheat on the costs, it's comical. Then you give them then insanity that is the tutor land package Tron decks run...and forget it.
I've lost after GQ + Extraction on a tron land, he just tutored up Temple, and started dropping TKS, and eventually World Breaker, it's just stupid.
Free Twin, the format is instantly improved.
I'm gonna have to agree. I wish it could be another way. But the other way probably isn't happening.
I'm probably in the minority, but having a degenerate combo deck would be good for the state of modern. It keeps in check all the linear decks by just going over or below them. Yet it'll get beat by a classic control deck. While fair decks can beat the classic control, and big mana ramp can beat the fair decks, and the cycle actually takes place.
I think holydiva is right on in the analysis of what is keep Control down.
Many of us have said this for over a year. There are enough decks that are out there which trump anything but an instant win, and they all have tron and/or Eldrazi.
It's not as if those creatures are fair, they are above curve all over the place, and when you get to cheat on the costs, it's comical. Then you give them then insanity that is the tutor land package Tron decks run...and forget it.
I've lost after GQ + Extraction on a tron land, he just tutored up Temple, and started dropping TKS, and eventually World Breaker, it's just stupid.
Free Twin, the format is instantly improved.
Are you implying that Tron is suppressing blue decks? I'm having a hard time understanding what you guys mean.
I do think sadly we need Twin back, this banning mindset is leading to more bans
Well, we banned Probe, but now all thats left is fair decks and ramp----
So, what will come next, are we going to ban Eldrazi Temple, Tron lands or stirrings now?
This is spiraling out of control
Just give back Twin, the ban has been an obvious failure. We were all in lala land for about a month, talking about how amazing the format became, and then Eldrazi Winter occurred, and then just super fast-linear decks kinda took over the format. It's obvious that Twin was incredibly important to help police the format, nothing great has occurred since Twin's banning
The format is flourishing right now, but it's still a new meta, and if mtgo is an indicator, ramp is seriously happening. My fnms have had tron/scapeshift decks topping, but that's obviously fnm. Reports of Tron being rampant at the modern events was abundant, it's possible more people just showed up with jund and the like.
If preordain isn't unbanned blue may as well not exist outside of the grixis decks sprinkled here and there
If preordain is unbanned, we are definitely heading to the point where Splinter Twin could be too dangerous to unban without some major safety valves that need to be created or introduced into the format
At this point, I honestly think a Twin unban is the safest option now (which basically means we all need to apologize to Cfusion)
To be fair, SSG with a turn 2 Blood Moon is broken, that is the EXACT type of game we don't like playing or watching in modern
But unless that becomes a tier 1 strategy, the ban is kinda...a bad one to ask for.
Same with opal.
I feel like Hellfire may benefit from a different format if he wants fair magic, and this is coming from a primary Jund/Junk player
No amount of fear-mongering should warrant a ban on anything. A broken card/strategy will make itself obvious by putting up results. Until then, it can't be considered broken because of "what if" scenarios.
Interesting I've had a much different experience with the deck. Even if they killed my guy I still seemed to combo off by turn 4 at the latest with gross regularity. Then Again a couple of those games were because i made an army on turn 3 off a monastery mentor maindeck and then retracted and repeated on turn 4 to kill my opponents. I guess it really is all personal experience but I agree with Sheridan the deck is busted. The real tell will be what happens at the GP on camera and especially in the top 8.
I wouldn't be surprised if it was opal they ended up hitting if Cheerios starts putting up T1 numbers.
Now we wait literally four days until we have GP results. If those results reflect that reality, then we argue for unbans to help out struggling decks. Only if the unbans failed would I then advocate for bans. Bans should always be last resorts when other options have failed.
If you are so afraid of Ancestral Visions and Blood Moon, go for the last BS ban and chop Deceiver Exarch.
Then you open the floodgates for more "fair" unbans like Bloodbraid Elf.
I'm calling it. If they don't unban Twin or reprint Counterspell or FOW lite, we will se many more bans and the format will be completely abandoned by the next 2 years.
If only Wizards thought the same way you do.
RGTron
UGInfect
URStorm
WUBRAd Nauseam
BRGrishoalbrand
URGScapeshift
WBGAbzan Company
WUBRGAmulet Titan
BRGLiving End
WGBogles
Since you don't need to play 4 paths in your control deck anymore, your mana leaks are almost always going to be counterspell.
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bg/x mirrors eh? you think thats all big/fast mana decks suppress? bg/x isnt the problem, its the mold in which we should build modern around. its the healthiest form of a fun and interactive deck in all of tier 1 currently, and as long as it doesn't rise too high in meta share its completely fine. "facepalm" how do you not get this?
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If you think that's why people are arguing for a Twin unban, then you didn't get nothing from the posts.
Sigh
It looks unsafe to buy into eldrazi now, in my eyes.
I wish hellfire would stop suggesting absurd bans. Who's even complaining about mox Opal? It comes off very biased, if you want magic to be so fair, go play standard (when twin is banned in standard along with mardu vehicles).
I never begged for a probe ban, I wanted dredge banned, along with become immense banned. I by no means wanted to lose my good matchups.
It just seems like modern would be improved with twin unbanned. Would twin be an issue with ancestral vision though?
mox opal and ssg are broken and will some day down the road eat bans , some people dont like to hear the truth.
if you want magic to be so fair, go play standard"
ive invested 5k into modern so no, I refuse to accept modern as it is and will never stop pushing for fixes, wether it be bans unbans or prints.
twin probably wont see an unban anytime soon imo.
decks playing:
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If this bears out, it will really underscore the problem I was worried about with the Probe ban. That being that WotC is clamping down on the speed of aggro decks, but in large part the reason aggro goes so all-in is that the decks it's supposed to police are so consistent and powerful that you need to go under them ASAP. Which was fine in and of itself, but now it looks like the turn-4 rule and lack of good answers may effectively cripple the meta's ability to self-regulate.
The Probe ban put aggro in the position of "Race as hard as you can so you have a chance at winning. But don't get good at it, or you'll get banned." I really hope the meta can sort itself out, because if not, the only ways of correcting course I can see are:
1) Get good countermagic or better answers to land-based strategies (not likely for months or more likely years)
2) Unban Probe and relax the Turn-4 Rule
3) Start nerfing the consistency of big-mana decks
4) Unban Twin
5) Let the wound fester
1 would be great, but it's a long shot. 2 seems impossible right now. 3 perpetuates the ban-hungry balance cycle, leveraging more bans to compensate for bans, leading to more bans to clean up the mess the last ban left. 4 is the most likely non-horrible solution, but it brings its own pretty significant problems even if you axe Twin (although maybe that would be sufficient to curb things). And of course 5 is unacceptable.
WUBRG Humans
BRW Mardu Pyromancer
UW UW "Control"
UR Blue Moon
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none
Burn just needs to come back hard. I sadly do think opal may get banned, not that it should but I am worried enough to avoid it.
Spirits
You're being absurd asking for an Opal ban, you would be hitting affinity and lantern all at the same time.
You complained about eldrazi temple, so literally you're asking for the entire deck to die. Eldrazi is a tier 4 deck if you ban temple, you play fair magic so it's suspicious what you're complaining about
Have you asked for a tron land ban too, that I'm not sure I remember reading by you
You basically want Gbx decks to be all that's left of modern, and I definitely resent that
Many of us have said this for over a year. There are enough decks that are out there which trump anything but an instant win, and they all have tron and/or Eldrazi.
It's not as if those creatures are fair, they are above curve all over the place, and when you get to cheat on the costs, it's comical. Then you give them then insanity that is the tutor land package Tron decks run...and forget it.
I've lost after GQ + Extraction on a tron land, he just tutored up Temple, and started dropping TKS, and eventually World Breaker, it's just stupid.
Free Twin, the format is instantly improved.
Spirits
Right. SSG is so broken that it rarely stumbles into tier 1 deck lists.
Link to Discord server where anybody from MTGS can keep up with thread topics while everything is being sorted out with the new site.
decks playing:
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This is true! You need metagame wide numbers to make a case for banning a deck.
But unless that becomes a tier 1 strategy, the ban is kinda...a bad one to ask for.
Same with opal.
I feel like Hellfire may benefit from a different format if he wants fair magic, and this is coming from a primary Jund/Junk player
Modern Tallowisp Spirits - A Modern Tallowisp Deck UW
Eldrazi Ninjas - Summoning Octopus Jutsu YYYYAAAHHHH!
STANDARD
Naban Wizards
Are you implying that Tron is suppressing blue decks? I'm having a hard time understanding what you guys mean.
I do think sadly we need Twin back, this banning mindset is leading to more bans
Well, we banned Probe, but now all thats left is fair decks and ramp----
So, what will come next, are we going to ban Eldrazi Temple, Tron lands or stirrings now?
This is spiraling out of control
Just give back Twin, the ban has been an obvious failure. We were all in lala land for about a month, talking about how amazing the format became, and then Eldrazi Winter occurred, and then just super fast-linear decks kinda took over the format. It's obvious that Twin was incredibly important to help police the format, nothing great has occurred since Twin's banning
The format is flourishing right now, but it's still a new meta, and if mtgo is an indicator, ramp is seriously happening. My fnms have had tron/scapeshift decks topping, but that's obviously fnm. Reports of Tron being rampant at the modern events was abundant, it's possible more people just showed up with jund and the like.
If preordain isn't unbanned blue may as well not exist outside of the grixis decks sprinkled here and there
If preordain is unbanned, we are definitely heading to the point where Splinter Twin could be too dangerous to unban without some major safety valves that need to be created or introduced into the format
At this point, I honestly think a Twin unban is the safest option now (which basically means we all need to apologize to Cfusion)
No amount of fear-mongering should warrant a ban on anything. A broken card/strategy will make itself obvious by putting up results. Until then, it can't be considered broken because of "what if" scenarios.
Link to Discord server where anybody from MTGS can keep up with thread topics while everything is being sorted out with the new site.