WotC reasoning: AD, TS, IoK, and Goyf formed a core of midrange decks that suppressed other midrange decks from forming, and made midrange decks too reliable and long-term a metagame strategy that regularly appears in top tournament lists, and we realized our reasons for banning splinter twin apply to this core of cards as well, Tarmogoyf in particular was worse because it also applied to other deck archetypes as a dominating card which suppressed other deck building designs and strategies, and was a threat that had to be prepared for by any deck, just like Twin was. We realized that we can't keep printing better buff spells and combat tricks without continuing to make Infect better, and thus realized it had to be banned for similar reasons to why we banned Birthing Pod, since like we wouldn't stop doing new more powerful and different effect creatures in Standard like Siege Rhino, we realized we also would keep on printing new combat tricks like Blossoming Defense and Become Immense, we considered trying to just ban Glistener Elf and/or Inkmoth Nexus, but realized people would just play the next best infect cards instead, while we kept on printing better combat tricks, and that the same standards should be applied to infect as was applied to Treasure Cruise and Dig Through Time, even though we never tested to see if Dig Through Time could be safe on it's own properly. Snapcaster Mage is just too good in too many decks and suppressing other strategies, much like Twin was, in the types of decks it turns up in, so we realized it had to go if we were also banning so much from midrange. Because we nerfed other decks so much, especially policing ones like midrange and tempo, we realized we had to hit some of the things they fought against as well that have recently been high up in the metagame. Getting rid of Eye of Ugin didn't kill Eldrazi enough, so we are now banning temple as well. Dredge exists outside of tier 3 so we need to re-ban the troll. Cranial Plating is a large part of occasional early game wins in Affinity and it wouldn't be fair to people who lost Summer Bloom or Seething Song to ban something lesser from the deck. SC and A'sC were too strong of insurance for burn decks against sideboarding attempts against them, and we nerfed so many other things from top teirs, burn needed to be knocked down a peg as well.
Unbans: Nothing
WotC reasoning:
We banned so many pieces of decks that policed broken stuff previously we're afraid of what might happen if we unbanned something that can help combo decks, otherwise we might have unbanned Preordain.
- Blue decks had a really strong presence in the top 8.
As happy as I was to get to see some blue decks in the top 8, it also worried me because I'm afraid WotC will take that as a sign that blue is fine. The fact is that Corey Burkhart is the only person having any success with Grixis Control, and he also ran very hot and avoided Dredge the entire weekend. As for the Jeskai deck, I'm baffled. Most of us blue players have been going leaner and faster to keep pace with the format, and he went in the entire opposite direction. I have no clue how he made top 8 with that deck considering how aggressive the format is. 4 Cryptics makes me tingly inside for how beautiful it is, though, lol.
I'm actually feeling more optimistic about the Suicide Bloo deck that's picking up some steam. I think that might be a legit blue tempo/combo deck that could be a player in this meta. I could see it making T1 with a Preordain unban.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern UBR Grixis Shadow UBR UR Izzet Phoenix UR UW UW Control UW GB GB Rock GB
Commander BG Meren of Clan Nel Toth BG BGUW Atraxa, Praetor's Voice BGUW
I will say regardless of GP Dallas, that Dredge needs to be dealt with, not entirely banned but just something needs to take a hit. As for unbans, I would go with BBE and nothing else.
I dunno, Dredge is starting to seem like a less resilient Affinity (by less resilient I mean it folds to hate worse than Affinity). It is much harder to deal with than non-sideboard cards, however, which I think WOTC takes into account.
For now I do not think they will ban anything from Dredge and I think there is a chance we get an unban of something like BBE, but I kinda doubt it. I am betting no changes. They will look at this GP top 8 and say the meta is pretty healthy.
That said, I still want Preordain. Would throw that into Nahiri so fast....
Burn would have zero issues with SFM. Literally just bolt SFM and they are good to go. Skullcrack, Atarkas, etc. It would be just fine.
Wouldn't burn just run SFM? being able to cheat out any sword like War and Peace or Fire Ice doesn't seem bad. This is part of the difficulty in assuming what if's about the banned list. To many variables to account for not the least of which is what if SFM alters any deck running W to start playing it? The possibilities given a unbanning are to much for anyone to really account for given that you cannot build every single best post ban deck of ever deck and test it ignoring any new deck that it might spawn.
Posts like these are why I question if half the people in this thread actively play modern. Burn would rather play goyf based on the argument that you are making and they don't because they would rather play bolt effects because burn wants to be hard to interact with.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
On mtgsalvation people don't want to discuss ideas, so I give people something else to discuss: my controversial opinions.
Why would Burn waste a few turns trying to set up a Sword of War and Peace? The pay off isn't worth it when they could of easily just fired off more bolt effects and swing in with Monastery Swiftspear.
If you are trying to make Stoneforge Mystic seem more outlandish than Mental Misstep that was a very poor example.
Burn would have zero issues with SFM. Literally just bolt SFM and they are good to go. Skullcrack, Atarkas, etc. It would be just fine.
Wouldn't burn just run SFM? being able to cheat out any sword like War and Peace or Fire Ice doesn't seem bad. This is part of the difficulty in assuming what if's about the banned list. To many variables to account for not the least of which is what if SFM alters any deck running W to start playing it? The possibilities given a unbanning are to much for anyone to really account for given that you cannot build every single best post ban deck of ever deck and test it ignoring any new deck that it might spawn.
Posts like these are why I question if half the people in this thread actively play modern. Burn would rather play goyf based on the argument that you are making and they don't because they would rather play bolt effects because burn wants to be hard to interact with.
All of bizzycola's arguments are pretty bad, I stopped responding. He thinks Mental Misstep is less format warping than SFM :/
His idea in theory has merit, slowing the meta down by denying many aggressive turn one plays but ultimately it would be a Mental Misstep lottery to see who drew the most copies and can push their T1 play out first. In a Mental Misstep Modern, Aggro would be even more obnoxious as when the dust settles they'll probably still have enough gas while their opponent starts at 18-16 life, not including mana bases.
As for Stoneforge Mystic, I think even her biggest detractors can agree Mental Misstep is far worse.
His idea in theory has merit, slowing the meta down by denying many aggressive turn one plays but ultimately it would be a Mental Misstep lottery to see who drew the most copies and can push their T1 play out first. In a Mental Misstep Modern, Aggro would be even more obnoxious as when the dust settles they'll probably still have enough gas while their opponent starts at 18-16 life, not including mana bases.
As for Stoneforge Mystic, I think even her biggest detractors can agree Mental Misstep is far worse.
Ok if we are actually discussing MM, it's not necessarily a power level problem. It is the fact that every deck in the format would be forced to run 4. It is the most format warping card ever printed, that is why it will stay on the banned list forever. If every deck was forced to run 4x of a card to stay competitive, that card is not ok.
SFM would not be as warping as people think, but she would go into every white deck in the format, so I doubt WOTC wants that. I personally would be fine with it because I would throw her into Abzan so fast and start throwing swords on Souls tokens, but I don't think it will happen.
Dredge will get banned because BBD played it, I've noticed any deck that he's played in the past 3 years of Modern, WOTC takes action on the deck right before the upcoming Pro Tour. He even points that out in his article that every deck he's played has been hit by the banlist.
To be honest, I do not want anything from Dredge gets banned.
Instead I want to see more tools that are maindeckable that can be used to deal with Dredge.
We get Kolaghan's Command that can be used to take down Affinity.
Can we have something similar for the graveyard hate? Is Containment Priest too strong for Modern?
No more Modern Pro Tours means Wizards will probably be more laid back in managing the format.
That's the whole reason they got rid of the modern PT if I recall. They admitted they were doing annual bannings to make the PT more interesting and it was pissing everyone off. This was a bit after the Twin ban. I am still really hoping they give us Twin back.
I only wish Wizards would take this opportunity of not having Modern in the PT to experiment more with unbans. There are a few cards that look woefully silly on the list when Dredge, Affinity and Infect are allowed to shine.
Yeah, I think it's time to unban most of the fair cards on the list. I would even be up for discussing DRS, to be honest. Jund is at an all-time low right now because of decks like Dredge and Eldrazi, so we might be at a point where DRS is ok.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern UBR Grixis Shadow UBR UR Izzet Phoenix UR UW UW Control UW GB GB Rock GB
Commander BG Meren of Clan Nel Toth BG BGUW Atraxa, Praetor's Voice BGUW
Drs would not be okay, we know what the card does to the meta already and we don't need 20% BGx I'd rather have dredge remained unbanned than have a miracles in this format. If you want to help BGx you ban dredge, jund was the most played deck literally up until dredge hit T1, this is no coincidence. Even when dredge was tier 1, jund was in the top 3.it wasn't until kaladesh that BGx fell from grace. Same story goes for jeskai here. In fact, its also hard to find infects rise to power a coincidence with dredge being a good matchup and dredge also killing off its nad matchups. I bet a dredge ban makes infect fall off as well
Deathrite Shaman is my favorite card, but it is not good for Modern. It is at a different power level than most of Modern is. Powering out turn 2 Lilly's, eating graveyards, gaining life, killing opponents, etc.
Don't get me wrong if that thing got unbanned I would be thrilled and be back on Jund in a heartbeat, but it is too good. IMO the best creature ever printed.
Drs would not be okay, we know what the card does to the meta already and we don't need 20% BGx I'd rather have dredge remained unbanned than have a miracles in this format. If you want to help BGx you ban dredge, jund was the most played deck literally up until dredge hit T1, this is no coincidence. Even when dredge was tier 1, jund was in the top 3.it wasn't until kaladesh that BGx fell from grace. Same story goes for jeskai here. In fact, its also hard to find infects rise to power a coincidence with dredge being a good matchup and dredge also killing off its nad matchups. I bet a dredge ban makes infect fall off as well
dredge and eldrazi are problems in this format IMO. unbanning deathrite is most definately not the way to go.
sideboard lottery modern has now 2 tier 1 decks, not my idea of a fun diverse format. where the diversity is in its linearity..and racing is the way to go.
sideboard lottery modern has now 2 tier 1 decks, not my idea of a fun diverse format. where the diversity is in its linearity..and racing is the way to go.
He said less than 2 days after the most recent GP featuring a top 4 with 3 control decks.
sideboard lottery modern has now 2 tier 1 decks, not my idea of a fun diverse format. where the diversity is in its linearity..and racing is the way to go.
He said less than 2 days after the most recent GP featuring a top 4 with 3 control decks.
I go by a larger sample size than 1 GP, but rather the accumulation of EVERYTHING, as everyone should, when talking about the metagame.
What about a sample size of all the 6 GP Top8s since the Eye ban?
Affinity - 10%
Jund - 10%
Death's Shadow - 8%
Infect - 8%
RG Valakut - 8%
Burn - 6%
Bant Eldrazi - 6%
Bant Company - 4%
Grixis Control - 4%
Hatebears - 4%
14 other decks at 2%
Not only is the competitive meta diverse, but neither Bant Eldrazi nor Dredge are dominant. To adress your concerns, those decks are not a problem. More importantly, no deck is even near the success previously banned enjoyed: BBE Jund at 22%, DRS BGx at 29%, Pod at 22% and Twin at 19%.
Next B&R Update Prediciton: No Bans and No Unbans. Hopefully they unban something to help both Combo and Control, maybe Preordain.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern:WU WU Control | WBG Abzan Company Frontier:UBR Grixis Control | BRG Jund Delirium
I go by a larger sample size than 1 GP, but rather the accumulation of EVERYTHING, as everyone should, when talking about the metagame.
What about a sample size of all the 6 GP Top8s since the Eye ban?
Affinity - 10%
Jund - 10%
Death's Shadow - 8%
Infect - 8%
RG Valakut - 8%
Burn - 6%
Bant Eldrazi - 6%
Bant Company - 4%
Grixis Control - 4%
Hatebears - 4%
14 other decks at 2%
Not only is the competitive meta diverse, but neither Bant Eldrazi nor Dredge are dominant. To adress your concerns, those decks are not a problem. More importantly, no deck is even near the success previously banned enjoyed: BBE Jund at 22%, DRS BGx at 29%, Pod at 22% and Twin at 19%.
Next B&R Update Prediciton: No Bans and No Unbans. Hopefully they unban something to help both Combo and Control, maybe Preordain.
you cant go that far back, the meta is different now. dredge just recently got stronger and eldrazi was abandoned for a while after the eye ban.
also even using those gp stats I see 24%(being generous) grindy/non linear and the rest 46% race/ramp decks
That was impressive in terms of speed with which goal posts were moved. First 1 gp isn't enough, then 6 is too many. After that you see a statistic from the 1 gp (which isn't enough), and use it to support your statement that the meta is too linear. Well which is it? Either the one gp doesn't mean anything, or it is too linear.
edit: post above edited and now I make less sense here.
you know what source you can use? The one I link above when you said there were only 2 tier 1 decks. Granted, this is one month old. http://modernnexus.com/topdecks/
That was impressive in terms of speed with which goal posts were moved. First 1 gp isn't enough, then 6 is too many. After that you see a statistic from the 1 gp (which isn't enough), and use it to support your statement that the meta is too linear. Well which is it? Either the one gp doesn't mean anything, or it is too linear.
edit: post above edited and now I make less sense here.
you know what source you can use? The one I link above when you said there were only 2 tier 1 decks. Granted, this is one month old. http://modernnexus.com/topdecks/
We'll have to see the update, but the meta is pretty far from a meta dominated by only two tier 1 decks.
Play/brew more, complain about balance less imo.
In short modern is dominated by linear decks. stats seem to support my statement whether it be 1 gp, 6, or the current stats of modern nexus including tier 1 2 and 3. a good shot at fixing this is hitting 1 or 2 tier 1 linear decks that stifle non linear strategies. these decks IMO are dredge, and eldrazi.
side note: stop being condescending IMO. Ive been playing this game for years and have thousands of modern games under my belt, with plenty of room to brew.
And yet, you come here to complain about the modern meta being dominated by linear decks, when the most recent gp had 3 of 4 decks at the top being control. Calling eldrazi linear is humorous at best.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern Decks
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Bans: Abrupt Decay, Thoughtseize, Inquisition of Kozilek, Tarmogoyf, Snapcaster Mage, Golgari Grave-Troll, everything with Infect keyword, Atarka's Command, Skullcrack, Eldrazi Temple, Cranial Plating.
WotC reasoning: AD, TS, IoK, and Goyf formed a core of midrange decks that suppressed other midrange decks from forming, and made midrange decks too reliable and long-term a metagame strategy that regularly appears in top tournament lists, and we realized our reasons for banning splinter twin apply to this core of cards as well, Tarmogoyf in particular was worse because it also applied to other deck archetypes as a dominating card which suppressed other deck building designs and strategies, and was a threat that had to be prepared for by any deck, just like Twin was. We realized that we can't keep printing better buff spells and combat tricks without continuing to make Infect better, and thus realized it had to be banned for similar reasons to why we banned Birthing Pod, since like we wouldn't stop doing new more powerful and different effect creatures in Standard like Siege Rhino, we realized we also would keep on printing new combat tricks like Blossoming Defense and Become Immense, we considered trying to just ban Glistener Elf and/or Inkmoth Nexus, but realized people would just play the next best infect cards instead, while we kept on printing better combat tricks, and that the same standards should be applied to infect as was applied to Treasure Cruise and Dig Through Time, even though we never tested to see if Dig Through Time could be safe on it's own properly. Snapcaster Mage is just too good in too many decks and suppressing other strategies, much like Twin was, in the types of decks it turns up in, so we realized it had to go if we were also banning so much from midrange. Because we nerfed other decks so much, especially policing ones like midrange and tempo, we realized we had to hit some of the things they fought against as well that have recently been high up in the metagame. Getting rid of Eye of Ugin didn't kill Eldrazi enough, so we are now banning temple as well. Dredge exists outside of tier 3 so we need to re-ban the troll. Cranial Plating is a large part of occasional early game wins in Affinity and it wouldn't be fair to people who lost Summer Bloom or Seething Song to ban something lesser from the deck. SC and A'sC were too strong of insurance for burn decks against sideboarding attempts against them, and we nerfed so many other things from top teirs, burn needed to be knocked down a peg as well.
Unbans: Nothing
WotC reasoning:
We banned so many pieces of decks that policed broken stuff previously we're afraid of what might happen if we unbanned something that can help combo decks, otherwise we might have unbanned Preordain.
As happy as I was to get to see some blue decks in the top 8, it also worried me because I'm afraid WotC will take that as a sign that blue is fine. The fact is that Corey Burkhart is the only person having any success with Grixis Control, and he also ran very hot and avoided Dredge the entire weekend. As for the Jeskai deck, I'm baffled. Most of us blue players have been going leaner and faster to keep pace with the format, and he went in the entire opposite direction. I have no clue how he made top 8 with that deck considering how aggressive the format is. 4 Cryptics makes me tingly inside for how beautiful it is, though, lol.
I'm actually feeling more optimistic about the Suicide Bloo deck that's picking up some steam. I think that might be a legit blue tempo/combo deck that could be a player in this meta. I could see it making T1 with a Preordain unban.
UBR Grixis Shadow UBR
UR Izzet Phoenix UR
UW UW Control UW
GB GB Rock GB
Commander
BG Meren of Clan Nel Toth BG
BGUW Atraxa, Praetor's Voice BGUW
I dunno, Dredge is starting to seem like a less resilient Affinity (by less resilient I mean it folds to hate worse than Affinity). It is much harder to deal with than non-sideboard cards, however, which I think WOTC takes into account.
For now I do not think they will ban anything from Dredge and I think there is a chance we get an unban of something like BBE, but I kinda doubt it. I am betting no changes. They will look at this GP top 8 and say the meta is pretty healthy.
That said, I still want Preordain. Would throw that into Nahiri so fast....
Posts like these are why I question if half the people in this thread actively play modern. Burn would rather play goyf based on the argument that you are making and they don't because they would rather play bolt effects because burn wants to be hard to interact with.
Decks I'm playing in Modern right now:
URB Grixis Reveler (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-grixis-reveler/)
UB Faeries (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/ub-fae-2/)
UW Azorious Control (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-ojutai-control-2/)
If you are trying to make Stoneforge Mystic seem more outlandish than Mental Misstep that was a very poor example.
All of bizzycola's arguments are pretty bad, I stopped responding. He thinks Mental Misstep is less format warping than SFM :/
As for Stoneforge Mystic, I think even her biggest detractors can agree Mental Misstep is far worse.
Ok if we are actually discussing MM, it's not necessarily a power level problem. It is the fact that every deck in the format would be forced to run 4. It is the most format warping card ever printed, that is why it will stay on the banned list forever. If every deck was forced to run 4x of a card to stay competitive, that card is not ok.
SFM would not be as warping as people think, but she would go into every white deck in the format, so I doubt WOTC wants that. I personally would be fine with it because I would throw her into Abzan so fast and start throwing swords on Souls tokens, but I don't think it will happen.
Mental Misstep along with Skullclamp even ruin No Banlist Modern.
Instead I want to see more tools that are maindeckable that can be used to deal with Dredge.
We get Kolaghan's Command that can be used to take down Affinity.
Can we have something similar for the graveyard hate? Is Containment Priest too strong for Modern?
Anything, but nothing at the moment...
Modern:
WUBRGAmulet Titan, WUBRGHuman
WUBRAd Nauseam, WBRGDeath Shadow, UBRGScapeshift, UBRGDredge
WURJeskai Nahiri, WURCheeri0s, WBGCounter Company, WRGBurn, UBRMadcap Moon, BRGJund Midrange
UBTurn,BRGriselbrand Reanimator, WGKnight Company, RGRG Tron, RGRG Ponza, XAffinity, XEldrazi Tron
That's the whole reason they got rid of the modern PT if I recall. They admitted they were doing annual bannings to make the PT more interesting and it was pissing everyone off. This was a bit after the Twin ban. I am still really hoping they give us Twin back.
UBR Grixis Shadow UBR
UR Izzet Phoenix UR
UW UW Control UW
GB GB Rock GB
Commander
BG Meren of Clan Nel Toth BG
BGUW Atraxa, Praetor's Voice BGUW
UWRjeskai nahiri UWR
UBRgrixis titi UBR
UBRgrixis delverUBR
UR ur kikimite UR
EDH
RUG Riku of Two Reflections RUG
UBR Marchesa, the Black Rose UBR
UBRGYidris, Maelstrom Wielder UBRG
UBRJeleva, Nephalia's ScourgeUBR
Don't get me wrong if that thing got unbanned I would be thrilled and be back on Jund in a heartbeat, but it is too good. IMO the best creature ever printed.
dredge and eldrazi are problems in this format IMO. unbanning deathrite is most definately not the way to go.
sideboard lottery modern has now 2 tier 1 decks, not my idea of a fun diverse format. where the diversity is in its linearity..and racing is the way to go.
decks playing:
none
Modern now has only 2 tier 1 decks? Really?
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG
I go by a larger sample size than 1 GP, but rather the accumulation of EVERYTHING, as everyone should, when talking about the metagame.
decks playing:
none
Next B&R Update Prediciton: No Bans and No Unbans. Hopefully they unban something to help both Combo and Control, maybe Preordain.
Frontier: UBR Grixis Control | BRG Jund Delirium
you cant go that far back, the meta is different now. dredge just recently got stronger and eldrazi was abandoned for a while after the eye ban.
also even using those gp stats I see 24%(being generous) grindy/non linear and the rest 46% race/ramp decks
decks playing:
none
edit: post above edited and now I make less sense here.
you know what source you can use? The one I link above when you said there were only 2 tier 1 decks. Granted, this is one month old. http://modernnexus.com/topdecks/
Bant Eldrazi 9.2%
Burn 8.1%
Infect 7.6%
Affinity 7.5%
Jund 6.5%
Dredge 4.2%
Abzan 4.0%
We'll have to see the update, but the meta is pretty far from a meta dominated by only two tier 1 decks.
Play/brew more, complain about balance less imo.
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG
In short modern is dominated by linear decks. stats seem to support my statement whether it be 1 gp, 6, or the current stats of modern nexus including tier 1 2 and 3. a good shot at fixing this is hitting 1 or 2 tier 1 linear decks that stifle non linear strategies. these decks IMO are dredge, and eldrazi.
side note: stop being condescending IMO. Ive been playing this game for years and have thousands of modern games under my belt, with plenty of room to brew.
decks playing:
none
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG