Jund has a natural enemy in Merfolk. Spreading Seas + Master of Waves and Sea's Claim from the board makes that matchup pretty favorable to Fish from my experience. I think a rise in Jund would correlate with a rise in Merfolk, which then brings a rise in Affinity, etc. Thus, I'm not entirely sure that unbanning BBE would really break the deck.
Of course you are totally wrong here. Unless you know better than Wilson, Jund can easily win Merfolks.
Jacob Wilson(on his Jund sideboarding article):
On one end of the spectrum is Merfolk, an uncommon and extremely easy matchup(for Jund)—I'll ignore this matchup while constructing my sideboard.
Has Jacob Wilson done anything relevant in modern in the past year? Anything? Also, Merfolk has won a GP since that article so he's DEFINITELY selling the deck short.
As a pretty decent Jund player I also think Jacob Wilson is massively selling Merfolk short. I would argue it's about 50/50 (Jund edges it game 2-3 if we have a dedicated SB). They can really mess up our manabase up and, as mentioned, Jund is fairly suicidal sometimes. It's certainly not close to our "bad MUs" but it's not one of our best either, somewhere in the middle.
This is where I'm at in the matchup. I do personally feel that Merfolk is favored in game 1 at around 55-45. I do feel that the number flip flops after side to 45-55, although I can understand Sea's Claim in the side would help with that.
Merfolk has trouble cards like Kira, Glass Spinner and Master of Waves that cause real problems for Jund one for one removal. However with discard, there is always that chance to nab these trouble cards and coast the rest of the way. Well timed Spreading Seas and multiple copies on the play can be VERY tough for Jund to beat, but then again, they have 1 mana discard. I've seen Merfolk have strong creature hands that are hard for Jund to stop. But when they don't draw too many threats, get mana flooded or late game Aether Vial flooded, it's easy for Jund to attrition them out.
So I don't feel right saying that the matchup is heavily favored either way and for someone to say so, I would have doubts about them or I would consider that their build is very different. Merfolk has room for flexibility and we KNOW Jund has a lot of flexibility. No two people have the same SB for Jund.
*With Bogles vs. Jund/Junk in the last 2 years, I am something like 58-19 vs. them, most of which were at Comp REL level. I would never say that I feel Bogles is heavily favored vs. Jund or the BANE of Jund. I just have gotten lucky and know how to play it. I actually have my own Jund built and I tested it to be around 50%, so that's some numbers for you.
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
As a Jund player for years, I would say that Merfolk is a bad match up for my Jund deck, but Tron is a much worse match up. As a result, I always add more SB cards against Tron than against Merfolk.
Among tier 1 decks, the good match up for Jund is blue based control or combo. All the rest is not higher than 50:50.
Jund has a natural enemy in Merfolk. Spreading Seas + Master of Waves and Sea's Claim from the board makes that matchup pretty favorable to Fish from my experience. I think a rise in Jund would correlate with a rise in Merfolk, which then brings a rise in Affinity, etc. Thus, I'm not entirely sure that unbanning BBE would really break the deck.
Of course you are totally wrong here. Unless you know better than Wilson, Jund can easily win Merfolks.
Jacob Wilson(on his Jund sideboarding article):
On one end of the spectrum is Merfolk, an uncommon and extremely easy matchup(for Jund)—I'll ignore this matchup while constructing my sideboard.
Has Jacob Wilson done anything relevant in modern in the past year? Anything? Also, Merfolk has won a GP since that article so he's DEFINITELY selling the deck short.
He won the recent Modern MOCS with Grim Flayer Jund, which I believe is an accomplishment that's better than anyone on this forum.
It probably just comes down to how well you know the matchup. Playing Jund I've never lost to Merfolk. Playing Merfolk I've never lost to Jund. It's probably close to 50/50 in a macro sense, but anybody's anecdotal evidence is going to influence how they view the matchup.
I'm sure someone like Jacob Wilson thinks it's easy for Jund because he's a very technically proficient player and will know exactly the right tempo for the matchup and on a turn by turn basis, which is not something everybody can easily pick up on.
If Jund becomes dominant, Fish can board 3-4x Sea's Claim to screw both Jund AND the inevitable rise of Tron decks that will also make life difficult for Jund. The 8-Sea's variants are extremely good in that environment, and still have lots of other good cards as mentioned before.
I actually think bringing in 3-4 Sea's Claims against Tron makes it better for Tron. Sure, you have an easier time keeping them off Tron. But you have to take out something for those Sea's Claims, and what you'll have to take out are things that would provide actual pressure against them. Sure, Spreading Seas is a good card against Tron and I wouldn't suggest boarding it out or anything, but if you play too many copies of that kind of effect you cut into your offense. And you need a good offense against Tron. Otherwise, even if you've hit every single one of their lands with a Spreading Seas/Sea's Claim, the Tron player will happily cast Oblivion Stone anyway on turn 3 or 4, then use their five Islands to blow up the board (including the enchantments), leaving you with nothing and leaving the Tron player with assembled Urzatron.
Jund has a natural enemy in Merfolk. Spreading Seas + Master of Waves and Sea's Claim from the board makes that matchup pretty favorable to Fish from my experience. I think a rise in Jund would correlate with a rise in Merfolk, which then brings a rise in Affinity, etc. Thus, I'm not entirely sure that unbanning BBE would really break the deck.
Of course you are totally wrong here. Unless you know better than Wilson, Jund can easily win Merfolks.
Jacob Wilson(on his Jund sideboarding article):
On one end of the spectrum is Merfolk, an uncommon and extremely easy matchup(for Jund)—I'll ignore this matchup while constructing my sideboard.
Has Jacob Wilson done anything relevant in modern in the past year? Anything? Also, Merfolk has won a GP since that article so he's DEFINITELY selling the deck short.
He won the recent Modern MOCS with Grim Flayer Jund, which I believe is an accomplishment that's better than anyone on this forum.
Fair. I still disagree with his assessment of Fish, but so be it.
This is definitely true. That one was exactly 1 1/2 days from the announcement, so I wonder why it would happen at such a sooner date. What is a Beta Client? I've had it explained before, but can't really grasp it. Is it where Wizards play tests cards to see if they are all right for a format? If so, I don't understand how a regular Magic player would have access to that, unless it is hacked or something. So I completely agree there.
I don't agree however, that Bloodbraid Elf will help Jund. I guess it gives it more options overall, but I don't think it helps Jund any more than Olivia Voldaren or Huntmaster of the Fells currently do - just by giving more options that are not played right now to the deck.
The only reason Jund even plays Olivia or Huntmaster is because BBE was banned. Its just to strong for a deck like Jund to have access to. Jund is already the best deck and giving it a card that is a lotto ticket into potentially any number of great cards in the deck was and is to good for the format.
Jund plays those two cards because they fill completely different roles. BBE is more main-deckable as it is in line with Jund's value plan and adds pressure while (possibly) providing disruption off a flipped IoK, Decay, Lili. Olivia is SB (or mainboard currently) against creature decks while Huntmaster and Kalitas are better for burn. Would I want BBE in against Elves or Fish vs Olivia, for example? No. Would I want BBE in against burn than Huntmaster or Kalitas? No. The 4 drop spot is/had become one of the most overloaded spots in Jund currently (against the 2 drop). Olivia, Huntmaster, Kalitas, Chandra, P&K all vie for the spot, usually just 2-of in most Jund decks. Sure BBE make eke out those in different metas, but the aforementioned are completely viable as MD.
BBE is better in a void. Huntmaster, Oliva, and the rest would go to the SB where Huntmaster and Oliva lived before BBE got banned. Why? because you have to make it to the next untap phase with them normally before you can gain any value, BBE gives you instant value in a format that has so much removal. It would invalidate completely other mid-range strategies. Also with flayer now finding its way into the deck the ability to simply set it up is inbreed into the deck. Huntmaster is the only option that gives instant value and the 2/2 token isn't on par with cascading into nearly any other card in Jund and is only great when you can get your opponent hellbent and get multiple flips out of it.
The main problem is that the best answer to Mental Misstep is Mental Misstep, so everyone ends up playing it. At least that is the conventional wisdom. That concern seems reasonable, but I wonder if the mana curve of modern isn't diverse enough to handle it. If it didn't become ubiquitous, it might be good for the format. WotC doesn't seem to think its worth the risk, a position shared by most of the modern community.
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Why is Mental Misstep banned? Doesn't seem to enable any deck and helps keep a lot of decks in check.
This is what I had to say to someone on the reddit ban thread yesterday about Misstep:
Do you not remember Eldrazi winter and the absolute punishment that Chalice of the Void on one was doing to the meta? Imagine not having to waste ANY tempo playing chalice on one. Delver decks have a hard time existing, Infect pretty much can't exist, and basically every other deck (save the one deck you mentioned Affinty) has key one drops. The card is ridiculously broken and unhealthy for any 60 card constructed environment.
In addition to that, you basically force everyone to run 4 missteps. The card should never see the light of day in modern.
Why is Mental Misstep banned? Doesn't seem to enable any deck and helps keep a lot of decks in check.
This is what I had to say to someone on the reddit ban thread yesterday about Misstep:
Do you not remember Eldrazi winter and the absolute punishment that Chalice of the Void on one was doing to the meta? Imagine not having to waste ANY tempo playing chalice on one. Delver decks have a hard time existing, Infect pretty much can't exist, and basically every other deck (save the one deck you mentioned Affinty) has key one drops. The card is ridiculously broken and unhealthy for any 60 card constructed environment.
In addition to that, you basically force everyone to run 4 missteps. The card should never see the light of day in modern.
after the PT the Eldrazi decks largely dropped chalice. That said, thoughtseize, Bolt, path, and some 1 mana counters are all far too important to the health of modern to allow misstep.
did WotC ever say anything about BBE being temporarily playable in modern on MTGO?
No, because it would cause market fluctuations, further speculation, and fallout. It was probably a glitch.
yeah kinda figured so much. They've already shaken the format up so much this year that I doubt they'd unban BBE, which might be too good for the format
did WotC ever say anything about BBE being temporarily playable in modern on MTGO?
No, because it would cause market fluctuations, further speculation, and fallout. It was probably a glitch.
yeah kinda figured so much. They've already shaken the format up so much this year that I doubt they'd unban BBE, which might be too good for the format
I guess a lot of people are still mad about the Splinter Twin thinking it was banned for PT reasons alone(which it did not). Thus, WOTC wanted/wants to further unban stuff and make people happy. But they will proceed with caution, no doubt about that! Happy though that Twin ban opened the can of unbans!
tbh I think the format is pretty good and healthy right now so I don't think they should unban/ban anything. The BBE thing was probably just a glitch with the program
Happy though that Twin ban opened the can of unbans!
It would be great if blue got something else besides AV, which in of itself hasn't done much to help the color. Moved Grixis from middle of Tier 3 to bottom of Tier 2, while Jeskai as a deck doesn't exist at all without Nahiri, the Harbinger, AV or not. Just a shame that "random tier 3 combo" is the new reason blue cards can't be unbanned. Ponder is probably too good, but I don't think Preordain would break the format. :/
BBE can come off. Like Bill was saying, you need great card fixing like Brainstorm/Jace/Top to make her work properly. She'd see play in Jund but by no means would it be broken. She might even encourage some interesting brewing. I say let her have her fun.
I don't think there is anything wrong with unbanning Bloodbraid Elf, but I also see no reason for Wizards to give the top deck more options, regardless of whether it will see play or not.
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This is definitely true. That one was exactly 1 1/2 days from the announcement, so I wonder why it would happen at such a sooner date. What is a Beta Client? I've had it explained before, but can't really grasp it. Is it where Wizards play tests cards to see if they are all right for a format? If so, I don't understand how a regular Magic player would have access to that, unless it is hacked or something. So I completely agree there.
I don't agree however, that Bloodbraid Elf will help Jund. I guess it gives it more options overall, but I don't think it helps Jund any more than Olivia Voldaren or Huntmaster of the Fells currently do - just by giving more options that are not played right now to the deck.
The only reason Jund even plays Olivia or Huntmaster is because BBE was banned. Its just to strong for a deck like Jund to have access to. Jund is already the best deck and giving it a card that is a lotto ticket into potentially any number of great cards in the deck was and is to good for the format.
Jund plays those two cards because they fill completely different roles. BBE is more main-deckable as it is in line with Jund's value plan and adds pressure while (possibly) providing disruption off a flipped IoK, Decay, Lili. Olivia is SB (or mainboard currently) against creature decks while Huntmaster and Kalitas are better for burn. Would I want BBE in against Elves or Fish vs Olivia, for example? No. Would I want BBE in against burn than Huntmaster or Kalitas? No. The 4 drop spot is/had become one of the most overloaded spots in Jund currently (against the 2 drop). Olivia, Huntmaster, Kalitas, Chandra, P&K all vie for the spot, usually just 2-of in most Jund decks. Sure BBE make eke out those in different metas, but the aforementioned are completely viable as MD.
BBE is better in a void. Huntmaster, Oliva, and the rest would go to the SB where Huntmaster and Oliva lived before BBE got banned. Why? because you have to make it to the next untap phase with them normally before you can gain any value, BBE gives you instant value in a format that has so much removal. It would invalidate completely other mid-range strategies. Also with flayer now finding its way into the deck the ability to simply set it up is inbreed into the deck. Huntmaster is the only option that gives instant value and the 2/2 token isn't on par with cascading into nearly any other card in Jund and is only great when you can get your opponent hellbent and get multiple flips out of it.
Good thing modern isn't played in a void.
"Invalid completely other mid-range strategies"? Kalitas beats, by itself, Dredge, Abzan Company, Burn and kiki chord if it doesn't draw its path. That card, again, takes up the valuable 4 slot.
And you can't make the statement that the Huntmaster 2/2+2 life isn't on par with BBE flip. That makes no sense at all. Turn 3 wurmcoil engine just isn't on par with Coco into Melira+finks. Another statement that makes no sense. Sweet you flipped a decay/terminate on an empty board. Nice IOK in a top deck war. See? you can invalidate BBE's "value" just as easily as brushing off Huntmaster's 2/2+2 life.
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Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir Mono-U Control
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Derevi Stax
VolThrun
Marchesa, The Black Rose
Olivia Voldaren, Vampire Tribal
BBE is not getting unbanned any time soon. Wizards does not unban cards that slot into existing top-tier decks. Jund is currently about as top-tier as it gets. The argument that "Jund won't play BBE" is unproven speculation, at best, or a misleading lie, at worst. Moreover, there is no way Wizards looks at BBE and thinks to itself "Oh, contemporary Jund lists have evolved beyond BBE; guess we can safely unban without them using it." Even IF BBE didn't go into Jund (a huge "IF"), Wizards still wouldn't unban it because they probably don't believe that and/or aren't going to test it out so extensively.
Let's assume the meta stays exactly as it is now through the GPs - do we start to have a conversation about Jace? In the modern context, is it doing much that Nahiri isn't (4 mana walker that wins in a few turns)? They'll compete to be in the same decks, it's a powerful blue card that doesn't slot into combo, etc...
JtMS in Modern? Are you guys crazy? If they unban it then I quit Modern, seriously. He has absolutely no place in Modern being too strong.
He is too strong vs fair decks. He is too weak vs decks like Affinity, Infect which are quick enough. He 's got no place in Modern for me as well. I do not believe decks like Jund can withstand Jace.
I disagree with this. In a sense. I certainly agree that the card Jace, the Mind Sculptor by itself isn't good against certain archetypes and would be boarded out, but the decks that JTMS would slot into would likely have good matchups against those decks anyway. These are the decks that get to run Bolt, Helix, Path, great SB cards, etc. When considering a JTMS unban we can't just think of JTMS in a vacuum as a single card, but instead we need to think about what impact he would have on the meta. JTMS would be in a deck that already has a good matchup against Affinity, Infect, etc. but JTMS himself would boost that deck's matchup against other archetypes that it may be weaker against without him.
It's kinda like Splinter Twin in that regard. Not in individual card power level certainly, but instead in how it gives the deck additional angles of attack and shores up otherwise poor matchups.
Has Jacob Wilson done anything relevant in modern in the past year? Anything? Also, Merfolk has won a GP since that article so he's DEFINITELY selling the deck short.
This is where I'm at in the matchup. I do personally feel that Merfolk is favored in game 1 at around 55-45. I do feel that the number flip flops after side to 45-55, although I can understand Sea's Claim in the side would help with that.
Merfolk has trouble cards like Kira, Glass Spinner and Master of Waves that cause real problems for Jund one for one removal. However with discard, there is always that chance to nab these trouble cards and coast the rest of the way. Well timed Spreading Seas and multiple copies on the play can be VERY tough for Jund to beat, but then again, they have 1 mana discard. I've seen Merfolk have strong creature hands that are hard for Jund to stop. But when they don't draw too many threats, get mana flooded or late game Aether Vial flooded, it's easy for Jund to attrition them out.
So I don't feel right saying that the matchup is heavily favored either way and for someone to say so, I would have doubts about them or I would consider that their build is very different. Merfolk has room for flexibility and we KNOW Jund has a lot of flexibility. No two people have the same SB for Jund.
*With Bogles vs. Jund/Junk in the last 2 years, I am something like 58-19 vs. them, most of which were at Comp REL level. I would never say that I feel Bogles is heavily favored vs. Jund or the BANE of Jund. I just have gotten lucky and know how to play it. I actually have my own Jund built and I tested it to be around 50%, so that's some numbers for you.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)Among tier 1 decks, the good match up for Jund is blue based control or combo. All the rest is not higher than 50:50.
Just my little opinion.
Anything, but nothing at the moment...
Modern:
WUBRGAmulet Titan, WUBRGHuman
WUBRAd Nauseam, WBRGDeath Shadow, UBRGScapeshift, UBRGDredge
WURJeskai Nahiri, WURCheeri0s, WBGCounter Company, WRGBurn, UBRMadcap Moon, BRGJund Midrange
UBTurn,BRGriselbrand Reanimator, WGKnight Company, RGRG Tron, RGRG Ponza, XAffinity, XEldrazi Tron
He won the recent Modern MOCS with Grim Flayer Jund, which I believe is an accomplishment that's better than anyone on this forum.
I'm sure someone like Jacob Wilson thinks it's easy for Jund because he's a very technically proficient player and will know exactly the right tempo for the matchup and on a turn by turn basis, which is not something everybody can easily pick up on.
Standard: lol no
Modern: BG/x, UR/x, Burn, Merfolk, Zoo, Storm
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Delver (BUG, RUG, Grixis), Landstill, Depths Combo, Merfolk
Vintage: Dark Times, BUG Fish, Merfolk
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion / Krenko, Mob Boss / Stonebrow, Krosan Hero
Fair. I still disagree with his assessment of Fish, but so be it.
BBE is better in a void. Huntmaster, Oliva, and the rest would go to the SB where Huntmaster and Oliva lived before BBE got banned. Why? because you have to make it to the next untap phase with them normally before you can gain any value, BBE gives you instant value in a format that has so much removal. It would invalidate completely other mid-range strategies. Also with flayer now finding its way into the deck the ability to simply set it up is inbreed into the deck. Huntmaster is the only option that gives instant value and the 2/2 token isn't on par with cascading into nearly any other card in Jund and is only great when you can get your opponent hellbent and get multiple flips out of it.
RGTron
UGInfect
URStorm
WUBRAd Nauseam
BRGrishoalbrand
URGScapeshift
WBGAbzan Company
WUBRGAmulet Titan
BRGLiving End
WGBogles
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG
This is what I had to say to someone on the reddit ban thread yesterday about Misstep:
Do you not remember Eldrazi winter and the absolute punishment that Chalice of the Void on one was doing to the meta? Imagine not having to waste ANY tempo playing chalice on one. Delver decks have a hard time existing, Infect pretty much can't exist, and basically every other deck (save the one deck you mentioned Affinty) has key one drops. The card is ridiculously broken and unhealthy for any 60 card constructed environment.
In addition to that, you basically force everyone to run 4 missteps. The card should never see the light of day in modern.
RGTron
UGInfect
URStorm
WUBRAd Nauseam
BRGrishoalbrand
URGScapeshift
WBGAbzan Company
WUBRGAmulet Titan
BRGLiving End
WGBogles
Standard: lol no
Modern: BG/x, UR/x, Burn, Merfolk, Zoo, Storm
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Delver (BUG, RUG, Grixis), Landstill, Depths Combo, Merfolk
Vintage: Dark Times, BUG Fish, Merfolk
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion / Krenko, Mob Boss / Stonebrow, Krosan Hero
No, because it would cause market fluctuations, further speculation, and fallout. It was probably a glitch.
yeah kinda figured so much. They've already shaken the format up so much this year that I doubt they'd unban BBE, which might be too good for the format
tbh I think the format is pretty good and healthy right now so I don't think they should unban/ban anything. The BBE thing was probably just a glitch with the program
It would be great if blue got something else besides AV, which in of itself hasn't done much to help the color. Moved Grixis from middle of Tier 3 to bottom of Tier 2, while Jeskai as a deck doesn't exist at all without Nahiri, the Harbinger, AV or not. Just a shame that "random tier 3 combo" is the new reason blue cards can't be unbanned. Ponder is probably too good, but I don't think Preordain would break the format. :/
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
RGTron
UGInfect
URStorm
WUBRAd Nauseam
BRGrishoalbrand
URGScapeshift
WBGAbzan Company
WUBRGAmulet Titan
BRGLiving End
WGBogles
Good thing modern isn't played in a void.
"Invalid completely other mid-range strategies"? Kalitas beats, by itself, Dredge, Abzan Company, Burn and kiki chord if it doesn't draw its path. That card, again, takes up the valuable 4 slot.
And you can't make the statement that the Huntmaster 2/2+2 life isn't on par with BBE flip. That makes no sense at all. Turn 3 wurmcoil engine just isn't on par with Coco into Melira+finks. Another statement that makes no sense. Sweet you flipped a decay/terminate on an empty board. Nice IOK in a top deck war. See? you can invalidate BBE's "value" just as easily as brushing off Huntmaster's 2/2+2 life.
Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir Mono-U Control
Ob Nixilis of the Black Oath
Sen Triplets
Mizzix of the Izmagnus
Derevi Stax
VolThrun
Marchesa, The Black Rose
Olivia Voldaren, Vampire Tribal
Modern: Fish, JUND/Junk
--------
RIP Twin
It's kinda like Splinter Twin in that regard. Not in individual card power level certainly, but instead in how it gives the deck additional angles of attack and shores up otherwise poor matchups.
Standard: lol no
Modern: BG/x, UR/x, Burn, Merfolk, Zoo, Storm
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Delver (BUG, RUG, Grixis), Landstill, Depths Combo, Merfolk
Vintage: Dark Times, BUG Fish, Merfolk
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion / Krenko, Mob Boss / Stonebrow, Krosan Hero