If they will ban Dredge, i will quit. We need at least one GY deck in our tier1. Why not? Hate still borrow Dredge deep and i think if Dredge deserves ban, then Affinity and Infect deserve it too.
I don't think they will ban Dredge although I would have nothing against if they did because it's just a stupid deck that requires you to be faster than it or to have gy hate to beat it. If you have slower deck gy hate is the only way to beat it, without it there's no hope and even this isn't always enough.
Also I don't see a reason why would we need gy deck in tier 1.
I don't see a reason why we need one but I also don't see a reason why we shouldn't have one. It's just a big bag of "meh".
I agree but I did not used it to paint any metagame shifts/decisions/bans/unbans. Just to say Abzan Company was taken care of(together with the rest GP's/SCG's), and I expect the same thing to happen with Dredge if it proves itself to be that good(which it may be is)
Agreed that most banlist analysis after the Eldrazi has been atrocious. First Abzan Company was the next Twin. Oops. Then Nahiri was busted and needed a ban in six months. Oops. I mean sure, if you call every breakout deck bannable you'll eventually be right, but that rate doesn't and shouldn't inspire a lot of confidence.
Legitimate question: Were the same people calling for bans on all three decks?
And, to be fair, since the Eye of Ugin ban many people have been talking about banning something from Infect as well (which is not a new deck, obviously).
Dredge is the new kid and people haven't adjusted to it yet, but I imagine they will by GP time. It will probably still give a strong showing and remain tier 1. This undoubtedly means that, like Infect, it will be an unfair tier 1 aggro deck that will constantly be railed on regardless of whether or not it meets basic ban criteria (which both decks may, at some point). That being said, I don't think Modern needs another aggro deck in tier 1, and I'm kind of worried as I started building Dredge (without Bridge/Gargadon) a few months ago and would hate to see a vital piece banned before I actually get to play it (like Bloom! Bleh).
If they will ban Dredge, i will quit. We need at least one GY deck in our tier1. Why not? Hate still borrow Dredge deep and i think if Dredge deserves ban, then Affinity and Infect deserve it too.
I don't think they will ban Dredge although I would have nothing against if they did because it's just a stupid deck that requires you to be faster than it or to have gy hate to beat it. If you have slower deck gy hate is the only way to beat it, without it there's no hope and even this isn't always enough.
Also I don't see a reason why would we need gy deck in tier 1.
Sure, we want another awesome jund, junk, bank, mank, dunk in tier1 and we all be okay. Standard-like crap ftw.
[quote from="Ayiluss »" url="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/733911-current-modern-banlist-discussion-7-18-2016-update?comment=864"][quote from="iloverin »" url="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/733911-current-modern-banlist-discussion-7-18-2016-update?comment=860"]If they will ban Dredge, i will quit. We need at least one GY deck in our tier1. Why not? Hate still borrow Dredge deep and i think if Dredge deserves ban, then Affinity and Infect deserve it too.
If they will ban Dredge, i will quit. We need at least one GY deck in our tier1. Why not? Hate still borrow Dredge deep and i think if Dredge deserves ban, then Affinity and Infect deserve it too.
I don't think they will ban Dredge although I would have nothing against if they did because it's just a stupid deck that requires you to be faster than it or to have gy hate to beat it. If you have slower deck gy hate is the only way to beat it, without it there's no hope and even this isn't always enough.
Also I don't see a reason why would we need gy deck in tier 1.
Sure, we want another awesome jund, junk, bank, mank, dunk in tier1 and we all be okay. Standard-like crap ftw.
It's definitely better to have interactive deck like Jund than some linear deck like Dredge that requires you to draw your piece of gy hate in order to beat it and if you don't you're just dead unless you play super fast deck that can race it but there are very few decks that can.
Sure. Lets kill all fast decks and combos. And format will be very interactive. Like standard.
The numbers are basically meaningless, or at least need to be taken with many caveats. Pros have to prep 50% for Standard and only need to get through 8 rounds of Modern to get to the finals. You're also metagaming against a known field of a small number of players. Those are highly inbred conditions which don't represent the wider metagame and should not be used to justify any unbanning/banning discussions.
Using this logic, Pro Tour results are equally meaningless, right?
The numbers are basically meaningless, or at least need to be taken with many caveats. Pros have to prep 50% for Standard and only need to get through 8 rounds of Modern to get to the finals. You're also metagaming against a known field of a small number of players. Those are highly inbred conditions which don't represent the wider metagame and should not be used to justify any unbanning/banning discussions.
Using this logic, Pro Tour results are equally meaningless, right?
We are returning to the all time classic "Pro tours were 50% draft and they banned Twin off of PT FRF so the ban was unjust-plz unban Twin" thing?
I'm just making sure we agree. If these results are meaningless because it's a small, inbred meta of pros, hyper-metagaming each other, and half the tournament relies on another format, then what makes this event any different from a PT?
The numbers are basically meaningless, or at least need to be taken with many caveats. Pros have to prep 50% for Standard and only need to get through 8 rounds of Modern to get to the finals. You're also metagaming against a known field of a small number of players. Those are highly inbred conditions which don't represent the wider metagame and should not be used to justify any unbanning/banning discussions.
Using this logic, Pro Tour results are equally meaningless, right?
On their own, they mostly are. Taken in context, however, they matter. For instance, If those results just sharpen a trend that was already happening, they matter more. Context matters. I even said in the quoted post "they need to be taken with many caveats," but you either missed that or deliberately omitted that because it didn't fit your argument. For example, using Worlds metagames to make arguments about the overall Modern metagame is stupid. Using a combination of GP and PT data is much more on-base.
Thankfully, we don't have any more PTs so we don't need to worry about it any more.
The numbers are basically meaningless, or at least need to be taken with many caveats. Pros have to prep 50% for Standard and only need to get through 8 rounds of Modern to get to the finals. You're also metagaming against a known field of a small number of players. Those are highly inbred conditions which don't represent the wider metagame and should not be used to justify any unbanning/banning discussions.
Using this logic, Pro Tour results are equally meaningless, right?
On their own, they mostly are. Taken in context, however, they matter. For instance, If those results just sharpen a trend that was already happening, they matter more. Context matters. I even said in the quoted post "they need to be taken with many caveats," but you either missed that or deliberately omitted that because it didn't fit your argument. For example, using Worlds metagames to make arguments about the overall Modern metagame is stupid. Using a combination of GP and PT data is much more on-base.
But if you compare these results to even the most recent Modern Nexus metagame analysis, the picture is basically the same. The vast majority of the game is linear aggro and Jund. The specific flavor of linear aggro may change event to event, but it's basically been this way for months. At what point do these tournaments actually matter? You said yourself, that we could interpret the upcoming GPs any way you please. Aren't you doing the same thing, dismissing every non-GP event over the past few months? I'm just trying to understand how long "wait and see" is supposed to remain the option of choice before saying "linear decks are a problem in Modern." Especially now that the PT is no longer a benchmark.
Also, having Jund and only Jund as the "answer" doesn't seem to bode well for diversity.
The numbers are basically meaningless, or at least need to be taken with many caveats. Pros have to prep 50% for Standard and only need to get through 8 rounds of Modern to get to the finals. You're also metagaming against a known field of a small number of players. Those are highly inbred conditions which don't represent the wider metagame and should not be used to justify any unbanning/banning discussions.
Using this logic, Pro Tour results are equally meaningless, right?
On their own, they mostly are. Taken in context, however, they matter. For instance, If those results just sharpen a trend that was already happening, they matter more. Context matters. I even said in the quoted post "they need to be taken with many caveats," but you either missed that or deliberately omitted that because it didn't fit your argument. For example, using Worlds metagames to make arguments about the overall Modern metagame is stupid. Using a combination of GP and PT data is much more on-base.
But if you compare these results to even the most recent Modern Nexus metagame analysis, the picture is basically the same. The vast majority of the game is linear aggro and Jund. The specific flavor of linear aggro may change event to event, but it's basically been this way for months. At what point do these tournaments actually matter? You said yourself, that we could interpret the upcoming GPs any way you please. Aren't you doing the same thing, dismissing every non-GP event over the past few months? I'm just trying to understand how long "wait and see" is supposed to remain the option of choice before saying "linear decks are a problem in Modern." Especially now that the PT is no longer a benchmark.
Also, having Jund and only Jund as the "answer" doesn't seem to bode well for diversity.
You ignored Jeskai. I know you hate/dislike Jeskai Nahiri, but stop ignoring and downplaying it in your posts here. It's disingenuous and makes me, and probably others, take your analysis less seriously. There are certainly reasonable criticisms to say about Jeskai: for instance, it didn't do well at either this week's or last week's Open, which might be a red flag. But that's a far cry from the categorical dismissal of Jeskai Nahiri you've made since May. If you want to make a measured criticism of the deck, great. But when doing so, do it in a way that doesn't make others feel like you are gleeful the deck isn't meeting some expectation.
As for the wait and see line, it's viable up until at least the last GP of 2016 (Dallas in November). Eldrazi got banned in April. April to November is a solid eight-month stretch from which we can make conclusions. After that, we can start prescribing fixes.
The numbers are basically meaningless, or at least need to be taken with many caveats. Pros have to prep 50% for Standard and only need to get through 8 rounds of Modern to get to the finals. You're also metagaming against a known field of a small number of players. Those are highly inbred conditions which don't represent the wider metagame and should not be used to justify any unbanning/banning discussions.
Using this logic, Pro Tour results are equally meaningless, right?
On their own, they mostly are. Taken in context, however, they matter. For instance, If those results just sharpen a trend that was already happening, they matter more. Context matters. I even said in the quoted post "they need to be taken with many caveats," but you either missed that or deliberately omitted that because it didn't fit your argument. For example, using Worlds metagames to make arguments about the overall Modern metagame is stupid. Using a combination of GP and PT data is much more on-base.
But if you compare these results to even the most recent Modern Nexus metagame analysis, the picture is basically the same. The vast majority of the game is linear aggro and Jund. The specific flavor of linear aggro may change event to event, but it's basically been this way for months. At what point do these tournaments actually matter? You said yourself, that we could interpret the upcoming GPs any way you please. Aren't you doing the same thing, dismissing every non-GP event over the past few months? I'm just trying to understand how long "wait and see" is supposed to remain the option of choice before saying "linear decks are a problem in Modern." Especially now that the PT is no longer a benchmark.
Also, having Jund and only Jund as the "answer" doesn't seem to bode well for diversity.
Jeskai Harbringer and Eldrazi are both tier 1 decks, and Jeskai harbringer has more than enough tools to deal with linear aggro. Bolt, helix, anger, verdict, snap, plus it has access to 3 different colors for sideboard options, including white, which has the best sideboard cards.
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Modern
JundBGR
RW Blood MoonRW
Pauper
Delver U
Elves G
Control B
Commander
Edgar Markov BRW
Captain Sisay GW
Niv-Mizzet, Parun UR
Tymna and Ravos WB
As for the wait and see line, it's viable up until at least the last GP of 2016 (Dallas in November). Eldrazi got banned in April. April to November is a solid eight-month stretch from which we can make conclusions. After that, we can start prescribing fixes.
I guess it doesn't help that in Wizard's infinite wisdom, they decide to jam multiple GPs into a single weekend rather than spread them out through the year. We had a triple GP weekend during Eldrazi Winter, then after the ban, a double GP weekend (one of which had the pairings messed up), 3 months without a Modern GP, then another triple GP weekend, 2 more months without, then finally a single last Modern GP.
Bant Eldrazi is starting to scare me a bit. It actually has the 2nd highest metagame share on MTGO and just put 3 copies in the top 8 of the SCG open.
To be clear I'm not saying it needs a ban right now, obviously, but I was part of the group that was in favor of banning both Eye and Temple back in April, because I think Temple is still a pretty busted card, tapping for 2 with no drawback is pretty insane still.
Again, not saying it needs a ban now, but if I had to choose a card that I thought would be the most likely to be banned by years' end, Temple would be it.
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Current Modern decks BGW Junk / URB Grixis Shadow / RGB Lantern Control / WUBCBant Eldrazi
Current Legacy decks BUG Shardless BUG / UWR Predict Miracles / RUG Canadian Thresh / WRBG 4c Loam UB Reanimator
New can of worms to open - a guy from my LGS posted on FB that "the guy who noticed that Twin and Bloom were banned on the Beta Client on MTGO" the Friday before the Monday Ban Announcement just noticed the inclusion of Bloodbraid Elf in Modern. Now I'm not sure what a "Beta Client" actually is, but it seemed like he was correct the first time around. Nowadays, I'm more inclined to believe many Magic related rumors because I've doubted so many that came true.
The first thing to look at when considering a potential unban is Jund. I personally think that Bloodbraid Elf is NOT better than Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet. Obviously in certain metagames, the Elf is better. But in the metagames we're seeing now, I feel like Kalitas is better. I have lost many times to Kalitas (especially when I ran Abzan Company) and I have heard that many others have to. It would seem odd to me since BBE doesn't seem to make an impact in Modern other than that, but I could be wrong. I guess Big Zoo or RG Ponza could run it, but I'm not sure where else it would see play. I would take my post with a grain of salt obviously since I'm just a dude (or dudette) on the internet, but I guess time will tell.
Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
I find it very hard to be true, but hey, if they go for it, let's take the dust off them and give it a spin.
There is certainly some appeal to unbanning BBE now that Visions is legal. I have an extremely hard time believe that a BBE + Visions RUG deck would be too good as Wizards seemed to suggest in their rationale for unbanning Visions. I hope they reconsider that, because it doesn't seem like they really though it through. On the other hand, another fair archetype being viable is pretty much exactly what this format needs.
The bigger question is does it make Jund too good, which I would say the answer is no, since it's not that much better than the 4-drops we currently play, TBH.
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Current Modern decks BGW Junk / URB Grixis Shadow / RGB Lantern Control / WUBCBant Eldrazi
Current Legacy decks BUG Shardless BUG / UWR Predict Miracles / RUG Canadian Thresh / WRBG 4c Loam UB Reanimator
The BBE beta post seemed to be debunked later when another poster, perhaps series of posters, attached screenshots showing it wasn't legal on the beta client.
New can of worms to open - a guy from my LGS posted on FB that "the guy who noticed that Twin and Bloom were banned on the Beta Client on MTGO" the Friday before the Monday Ban Announcement just noticed the inclusion of Bloodbraid Elf in Modern. Now I'm not sure what a "Beta Client" actually is, but it seemed like he was correct the first time around. Nowadays, I'm more inclined to believe many Magic related rumors because I've doubted so many that came true.
That last "leak" came just a day and a half before the actual news should have broken. We're more than a month away from the next ban announcement, so who knows why this is popping up (or even if it's true). Either way, it would make absolutely no sense to unban something that helps Jund, since it's currently the "best deck" in Modern anyway.
This is definitely true. That one was exactly 1 1/2 days from the announcement, so I wonder why it would happen at such a sooner date. What is a Beta Client? I've had it explained before, but can't really grasp it. Is it where Wizards play tests cards to see if they are all right for a format? If so, I don't understand how a regular Magic player would have access to that, unless it is hacked or something. So I completely agree there.
I don't agree however, that Bloodbraid Elf will help Jund. I guess it gives it more options overall, but I don't think it helps Jund any more than Olivia Voldaren or Huntmaster of the Fells currently do - just by giving more options that are not played right now to the deck.
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
This is definitely true. That one was exactly 1 1/2 days from the announcement, so I wonder why it would happen at such a sooner date. What is a Beta Client? I've had it explained before, but can't really grasp it. Is it where Wizards play tests cards to see if they are all right for a format? If so, I don't understand how a regular Magic player would have access to that, unless it is hacked or something. So I completely agree there.
I don't agree however, that Bloodbraid Elf will help Jund. I guess it gives it more options overall, but I don't think it helps Jund any more than Olivia Voldaren or Huntmaster of the Fells currently do - just by giving more options that are not played right now to the deck.
The only reason Jund even plays Olivia or Huntmaster is because BBE was banned. Its just to strong for a deck like Jund to have access to. Jund is already the best deck and giving it a card that is a lotto ticket into potentially any number of great cards in the deck was and is to good for the format.
This is definitely true. That one was exactly 1 1/2 days from the announcement, so I wonder why it would happen at such a sooner date. What is a Beta Client? I've had it explained before, but can't really grasp it. Is it where Wizards play tests cards to see if they are all right for a format? If so, I don't understand how a regular Magic player would have access to that, unless it is hacked or something. So I completely agree there.
I don't agree however, that Bloodbraid Elf will help Jund. I guess it gives it more options overall, but I don't think it helps Jund any more than Olivia Voldaren or Huntmaster of the Fells currently do - just by giving more options that are not played right now to the deck.
The only reason Jund even plays Olivia or Huntmaster is because BBE was banned. Its just to strong for a deck like Jund to have access to. Jund is already the best deck and giving it a card that is a lotto ticket into potentially any number of great cards in the deck was and is to good for the format.
Jund plays those two cards because they fill completely different roles. BBE is more main-deckable as it is in line with Jund's value plan and adds pressure while (possibly) providing disruption off a flipped IoK, Decay, Lili. Olivia is SB (or mainboard currently) against creature decks while Huntmaster and Kalitas are better for burn. Would I want BBE in against Elves or Fish vs Olivia, for example? No. Would I want BBE in against burn than Huntmaster or Kalitas? No. The 4 drop spot is/had become one of the most overloaded spots in Jund currently (against the 2 drop). Olivia, Huntmaster, Kalitas, Chandra, P&K all vie for the spot, usually just 2-of in most Jund decks. Sure BBE make eke out those in different metas, but the aforementioned are completely viable as MD.
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EDH:ShatterStax, Only The Strong Survive
Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir Mono-U Control
Ob Nixilis of the Black Oath
Sen Triplets
Mizzix of the Izmagnus
Derevi Stax
VolThrun
Marchesa, The Black Rose
Olivia Voldaren, Vampire Tribal
if you are to play them you have to be Temur (obviously 4c aka Jund + Blue is just a worse version of Jund or a jund that doesn't beat aggro anymore) the problem with Temur, especially a Temur including 4 drops and AV is that it's going to be a slow deck and slow decks need INTERACTION otherwise they're going to die before they do anything of note, so what's going to be? 4 bolts, some roast/electrolyze or maybe something like forked bolt and the rest are going to be counterspells, leaks, remands, spell snares, stubborn denial and so on meaning that you're going to have ~5-10 cards that just fizzle if cascaded into, not to mention that there's no way to reliably cascade into AV, if anything the odds of you cascading into AV during a game is lower than casting a miracle
in legacy that works because FoW is technically a 5cmc spell so you can't cascade into it, in modern there's no such thing
@cfusionpm Jund being the 'best deck' is your opinion, it's definately one of the the best and probably the most popular but that is all, multiple pros for instance have expressed their opinion that infect is the best deck, if anything 2016 is the first time since DRS ban that Jund is top8ing like a T1 deck, in 2015 it had just 4 Top8s (equal to merfolks) yet we still heard stuff like this, 2016 seems to be much kinder to Jund though due to Kalitas being added and more creature based decks seeing play
There are strong blue decks that do not run counterspells outside of 2 cryptics. The blue moon deck run by channel fireball is an excellent deck snd could be chsnged to temur and be as effective. Modern is so creature focused that stack interaction is not really needed mainboard. Removal is all you really need in like 90% of game 1s.
BBE unbanning would result in a stronger showing of RG-Eldrazi again.
BBE into Matter-Reshaper, Talisman, Stirrings or Bolt would be absolute insane in a deck that can play aggro or grind out games so good as it does Eldrazi.
Best case you run into Reshaper, wost case you open Stirrings or Ramp for the t4 Smasher or sometimes even Breaker or Endbringer.
if you are to play them you have to be Temur (obviously 4c aka Jund + Blue is just a worse version of Jund or a jund that doesn't beat aggro anymore) the problem with Temur, especially a Temur including 4 drops and AV is that it's going to be a slow deck and slow decks need INTERACTION otherwise they're going to die before they do anything of note, so what's going to be? 4 bolts, some roast/electrolyze or maybe something like forked bolt and the rest are going to be counterspells, leaks, remands, spell snares, stubborn denial and so on meaning that you're going to have ~5-10 cards that just fizzle if cascaded into, not to mention that there's no way to reliably cascade into AV, if anything the odds of you cascading into AV during a game is lower than casting a miracle
in legacy that works because FoW is technically a 5cmc spell so you can't cascade into it, in modern there's no such thing
@cfusionpm Jund being the 'best deck' is your opinion, it's definately one of the the best and probably the most popular but that is all, multiple pros for instance have expressed their opinion that infect is the best deck, if anything 2016 is the first time since DRS ban that Jund is top8ing like a T1 deck, in 2015 it had just 4 Top8s (equal to merfolks) yet we still heard stuff like this, 2016 seems to be much kinder to Jund though due to Kalitas being added and more creature based decks seeing play
I think such a deck would use stuff like simic and izzet charm instead of mana leak to get rid of the cascade problem
Standard: lol no
Modern: BG/x, UR/x, Burn, Merfolk, Zoo, Storm
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Delver (BUG, RUG, Grixis), Landstill, Depths Combo, Merfolk
Vintage: Dark Times, BUG Fish, Merfolk
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion / Krenko, Mob Boss / Stonebrow, Krosan Hero
Legitimate question: Were the same people calling for bans on all three decks?
And, to be fair, since the Eye of Ugin ban many people have been talking about banning something from Infect as well (which is not a new deck, obviously).
Dredge is the new kid and people haven't adjusted to it yet, but I imagine they will by GP time. It will probably still give a strong showing and remain tier 1. This undoubtedly means that, like Infect, it will be an unfair tier 1 aggro deck that will constantly be railed on regardless of whether or not it meets basic ban criteria (which both decks may, at some point). That being said, I don't think Modern needs another aggro deck in tier 1, and I'm kind of worried as I started building Dredge (without Bridge/Gargadon) a few months ago and would hate to see a vital piece banned before I actually get to play it (like Bloom! Bleh).
Sure, we want another awesome jund, junk, bank, mank, dunk in tier1 and we all be okay. Standard-like crap ftw.
This^
Sure. Lets kill all fast decks and combos. And format will be very interactive. Like standard.
Using this logic, Pro Tour results are equally meaningless, right?
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
I'm just making sure we agree. If these results are meaningless because it's a small, inbred meta of pros, hyper-metagaming each other, and half the tournament relies on another format, then what makes this event any different from a PT?
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
On their own, they mostly are. Taken in context, however, they matter. For instance, If those results just sharpen a trend that was already happening, they matter more. Context matters. I even said in the quoted post "they need to be taken with many caveats," but you either missed that or deliberately omitted that because it didn't fit your argument. For example, using Worlds metagames to make arguments about the overall Modern metagame is stupid. Using a combination of GP and PT data is much more on-base.
Thankfully, we don't have any more PTs so we don't need to worry about it any more.
But if you compare these results to even the most recent Modern Nexus metagame analysis, the picture is basically the same. The vast majority of the game is linear aggro and Jund. The specific flavor of linear aggro may change event to event, but it's basically been this way for months. At what point do these tournaments actually matter? You said yourself, that we could interpret the upcoming GPs any way you please. Aren't you doing the same thing, dismissing every non-GP event over the past few months? I'm just trying to understand how long "wait and see" is supposed to remain the option of choice before saying "linear decks are a problem in Modern." Especially now that the PT is no longer a benchmark.
Also, having Jund and only Jund as the "answer" doesn't seem to bode well for diversity.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
You ignored Jeskai. I know you hate/dislike Jeskai Nahiri, but stop ignoring and downplaying it in your posts here. It's disingenuous and makes me, and probably others, take your analysis less seriously. There are certainly reasonable criticisms to say about Jeskai: for instance, it didn't do well at either this week's or last week's Open, which might be a red flag. But that's a far cry from the categorical dismissal of Jeskai Nahiri you've made since May. If you want to make a measured criticism of the deck, great. But when doing so, do it in a way that doesn't make others feel like you are gleeful the deck isn't meeting some expectation.
As for the wait and see line, it's viable up until at least the last GP of 2016 (Dallas in November). Eldrazi got banned in April. April to November is a solid eight-month stretch from which we can make conclusions. After that, we can start prescribing fixes.
Jeskai Harbringer and Eldrazi are both tier 1 decks, and Jeskai harbringer has more than enough tools to deal with linear aggro. Bolt, helix, anger, verdict, snap, plus it has access to 3 different colors for sideboard options, including white, which has the best sideboard cards.
JundBGR
RW Blood MoonRW
Pauper
Delver U
Elves G
Control B
Commander
Edgar Markov BRW
Captain Sisay GW
Niv-Mizzet, Parun UR
Tymna and Ravos WB
I guess it doesn't help that in Wizard's infinite wisdom, they decide to jam multiple GPs into a single weekend rather than spread them out through the year. We had a triple GP weekend during Eldrazi Winter, then after the ban, a double GP weekend (one of which had the pairings messed up), 3 months without a Modern GP, then another triple GP weekend, 2 more months without, then finally a single last Modern GP.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
To be clear I'm not saying it needs a ban right now, obviously, but I was part of the group that was in favor of banning both Eye and Temple back in April, because I think Temple is still a pretty busted card, tapping for 2 with no drawback is pretty insane still.
Again, not saying it needs a ban now, but if I had to choose a card that I thought would be the most likely to be banned by years' end, Temple would be it.
BGW Junk / URB Grixis Shadow / RGB Lantern Control / WUBCBant Eldrazi
Current Legacy decks
BUG Shardless BUG / UWR Predict Miracles / RUG Canadian Thresh / WRBG 4c Loam
UB Reanimator
The first thing to look at when considering a potential unban is Jund. I personally think that Bloodbraid Elf is NOT better than Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet. Obviously in certain metagames, the Elf is better. But in the metagames we're seeing now, I feel like Kalitas is better. I have lost many times to Kalitas (especially when I ran Abzan Company) and I have heard that many others have to. It would seem odd to me since BBE doesn't seem to make an impact in Modern other than that, but I could be wrong. I guess Big Zoo or RG Ponza could run it, but I'm not sure where else it would see play. I would take my post with a grain of salt obviously since I'm just a dude (or dudette) on the internet, but I guess time will tell.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)I find it very hard to be true, but hey, if they go for it, let's take the dust off them and give it a spin.
There is certainly some appeal to unbanning BBE now that Visions is legal. I have an extremely hard time believe that a BBE + Visions RUG deck would be too good as Wizards seemed to suggest in their rationale for unbanning Visions. I hope they reconsider that, because it doesn't seem like they really though it through. On the other hand, another fair archetype being viable is pretty much exactly what this format needs.
The bigger question is does it make Jund too good, which I would say the answer is no, since it's not that much better than the 4-drops we currently play, TBH.
BGW Junk / URB Grixis Shadow / RGB Lantern Control / WUBCBant Eldrazi
Current Legacy decks
BUG Shardless BUG / UWR Predict Miracles / RUG Canadian Thresh / WRBG 4c Loam
UB Reanimator
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
I don't agree however, that Bloodbraid Elf will help Jund. I guess it gives it more options overall, but I don't think it helps Jund any more than Olivia Voldaren or Huntmaster of the Fells currently do - just by giving more options that are not played right now to the deck.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)The only reason Jund even plays Olivia or Huntmaster is because BBE was banned. Its just to strong for a deck like Jund to have access to. Jund is already the best deck and giving it a card that is a lotto ticket into potentially any number of great cards in the deck was and is to good for the format.
Jund plays those two cards because they fill completely different roles. BBE is more main-deckable as it is in line with Jund's value plan and adds pressure while (possibly) providing disruption off a flipped IoK, Decay, Lili. Olivia is SB (or mainboard currently) against creature decks while Huntmaster and Kalitas are better for burn. Would I want BBE in against Elves or Fish vs Olivia, for example? No. Would I want BBE in against burn than Huntmaster or Kalitas? No. The 4 drop spot is/had become one of the most overloaded spots in Jund currently (against the 2 drop). Olivia, Huntmaster, Kalitas, Chandra, P&K all vie for the spot, usually just 2-of in most Jund decks. Sure BBE make eke out those in different metas, but the aforementioned are completely viable as MD.
Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir Mono-U Control
Ob Nixilis of the Black Oath
Sen Triplets
Mizzix of the Izmagnus
Derevi Stax
VolThrun
Marchesa, The Black Rose
Olivia Voldaren, Vampire Tribal
Modern: Fish, JUND/Junk
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RIP Twin
There are strong blue decks that do not run counterspells outside of 2 cryptics. The blue moon deck run by channel fireball is an excellent deck snd could be chsnged to temur and be as effective. Modern is so creature focused that stack interaction is not really needed mainboard. Removal is all you really need in like 90% of game 1s.
BBE into Matter-Reshaper, Talisman, Stirrings or Bolt would be absolute insane in a deck that can play aggro or grind out games so good as it does Eldrazi.
Best case you run into Reshaper, wost case you open Stirrings or Ramp for the t4 Smasher or sometimes even Breaker or Endbringer.
Nobody want to replace value creatures for value creatures!
I think such a deck would use stuff like simic and izzet charm instead of mana leak to get rid of the cascade problem
UWRjeskai nahiri UWR
UBRgrixis titi UBR
UBRgrixis delverUBR
UR ur kikimite UR
EDH
RUG Riku of Two Reflections RUG
UBR Marchesa, the Black Rose UBR
UBRGYidris, Maelstrom Wielder UBRG
UBRJeleva, Nephalia's ScourgeUBR