The issue with Preordain isn't the fair blue decks, it's the degenerate decks that would be playing it and causing issues for the format. I'd like to see it unbanned, but I really don't think we will because of it's potential to push the various combo decks over the top.
I think the scariest combo deck that it could break is Grishoalbrand. WoTC originally banned Ponder and Preordain because of Storm, it made the deck too consistent - but I believe that those were the wrong bans, I think the strongest rituals, Rite of flame and Seething Song should've been the targets. The good news is since then, these rituals have been banned, which leads me to believe that Preordain is safe to come off, and if it does break Grishoalbrand, then Goryo's Vengeance is the next, and correct, ban.
It doesn't matter what the scariest current combo deck Preordain could enable is. Preordain does nothing but enable, there will always be some fast combo deck and having preordain just makes those decks more consistent.
BBE doesn't need to be unbanned. June is doing just fine without it and any zoo deck that might want it as a curve topper has CoCo now.
Modern is better off without Splinter Twin. Its existence just shoehorns blue into subtle variations on the same deck.
SFM could probably be unbanned honestly. Jeskai has Nahiri now and I don't think it can fit SFM in the deck too, Abzan could use something to make it a viable choice over Jund, and Zoo probably wouldn't even play it. It's also kept in check by Kommand and Spell Snare.
Unfortunately every try hard from Sacramento to Shanghai preaches from the top of their 27 lands + Mana Reflection that Tooth and Nail and Time Stretch are fine to play in the same turn but Armageddon is unfair.
Is now the time to pick up copies of Stoneforge Mystic? It seems that her price has been steadily dropping. I can't see myself ever playing the card but it would spike a lot if it was unbanned right? Any other cards on the banlist that are good specs right now?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern RGTron UGInfect URStorm WUBRAd Nauseam BRGrishoalbrand URGScapeshift WBGAbzan Company WUBRGAmulet Titan BRGLiving End WGBogles
One other thing about SFM is that if they unban her, that basically means that they can`t ever print very good equipment again. I`m not sure if they`d be interested in a design restriction like that. When it comes to her power level in Modern, I don`t think anyone can say. It`s a hard card to evaluate, and modern is a hard format to evaulate cards for. I can see her being better in legacy than modern, there sure are a lot of Bolts and Kolaghan`s Commands flying around. I don`t really see myself transitioning from Jund to Junk immediately if she`s unbanned. That said, I think the format is fine, so I support no bans or unbans. And if SFM is good, she`s probably good against the wrong decks.
Bloodbraid Elf... Honestly, if she was unbanned right now, I`m not sure I`d even play her in Jund. I`d try her out, obviously, but I just don`t see her outclassing Kalitas in this format, and there are too many cascade targets that can just miss. But as I just wrote, it`s so hard to say without significant testing. I`d sure love her as a curve-topper in big Zoo.
What would you guys think that would be banned if there was a need to ban something from the dredge deck?
This deck seems to be the real deal.
Ps: I think nothing needs to be banned and the deck is OK though, as are all deck and the current meta is good. This is a thought exercise.
Insolent Neonate could be an interesting one...leads to the most explosive starts to my knowledge.
Agreed. Neonate is a nice enabler as lootings 5-8, but I don't think the deck would be a contender without Prized Amalgam. Both cards appeared in lists about the same time, but the deck wouldn't be as explosive or problematic if they were only dredging for Bloodghast and Narcomoeba. I personally don't have a problem with the deck (if I were to play a creature aggro list, I would be playing dredge), but it isn't my style and I can see why people have issues with it.
I don't think running around and unbanning really powerful cards to combat aggro is the way to 'fix' this. It will do nothing but up the ante, which just pushes modern closer to legacy-lite. A better solution would imo be to ban the troublesome cards out of the aggro decks if they become too good.
The format will always become legacy lite no matter what you do, this is inevitable. Completely unplayable Standard cards are redefining Modern in concrete ways.
Why anyone, Wizards especially, somehow believe that a Banned list can contain this format from growing to more powerful roots, is asinine. We should be unbanning more cards, it's unjust to have a deck with 10 power coming at you on turn 2, or some deck having a toolbox the size of your binder after a turn 1 Birds of Paradise, but I can't GSZ a Dryad Arbor out turn 1, or try and cast a somewhat relevant Bloodbraid Elf. Yet don't worry! Collected Company is here!
This is not true. If Wotc uses the ban list in a way to keep things in check, Modern will never be Legacy lite. It has the ability to if Wotc doesnt manage the format well though. The difference is some would rather let the format be with no management, others would rather a heavy hand. For me, as long as Legacy is still around and being played, Wotc keeps the heavy hand on Modern and keeps the format in check.
Also I think its great Standard cards are effecting Modern. Thats how it should be. When a set comes out it should add to all formats, not just one or two. With Standard cards effecting Modern, there is less spotlight on the ban list. Maybe some will forget about the ban list all together.
Agreed. Neonate is a nice enabler as lootings 5-8, but I don't think the deck would be a contender without Prized Amalgam. Both cards appeared in lists about the same time, but the deck wouldn't be as explosive or problematic if they were only dredging for Bloodghast and Narcomoeba. I personally don't have a problem with the deck (if I were to play a creature aggro list, I would be playing dredge), but it isn't my style and I can see why people have issues with it.
Neonate is almost better than Looting as it lets you start Dredging T1. The obvious ban would be Grave Troll, but I think banning Narcromoeba would be the right move.
Without it, it is a lot harder to trigger Amalgam and would make the deck a lot less explosive
Dredge has been relevant for a month online and less than 2 weeks in paper. Let's let the metagame adjust (people are still not playing enough graveyard hate in their boards to reflect dredge's newfound provenance) and see what happens after the GP weekend.
Whenever a new deck shows up everyone gets super bummed that they need to change their 75 to adapt to the new deck - this is what is currently happening.
Eh, it is another one of those "thought exercises" that people like to post on this thread. I don't disagree at all though. The meta has barely reacted and I believe it can be hated out. I'll be a little bummed by that since that hate will hit my decks a bit, but more paper events and time need to pass before it is an actually legit issue. I highly doubt this is a second coming of eldrazi winter or anything super format warping. Just another contender that people have to prepare for (either SB or trying to go over / ignore).
Eh, it is another one of those "thought exercises." I don't disagree at all though. The meta has barely reacted and I believe it can be hated out. I'll be a little bummed by that since that hate will hit my decks a bit, but more paper events and time need to pass before it is an actually legit issue. I highly doubt this is a second coming of eldrazi winter or anything super format warping. Just another contender that people have to prepare for (either SB or trying to go over / ignore).
Agreed.
Also, for as 'dredge-y' as the top 32 of the last SCG was there was plenty of non-linear love to go around.
1st - Dredge - Linear
2nd - RG Breach - Linear but runs plenty of interaction
3rd - Jund - Non-Linear
4th - Infect - Linear
5th - UW Control - Non-Linear
6th - Dredge - Linear
7th - Jund - Non-Linear
8th - Jund - Non-Linear
That's a pretty good top 8 from a 'balance' standpoint. Again, we're seeing MULTIPLE different kinds of strategies able to put up good showings. For as much as the argument has been that you 'must' play a non-linear ignore your opponent deck, it's simply not been true.
9-16
9th - Jund - Non-Linear
10th - GW Hatebears - Right on the Non-Linear/Linear line (Heavily debated)
11th - Temur Control - Non-Linear
12th - Dredge - Linear
13th - Burn - Linear
14th - Affinity - Linear
15th - Jund - Non-Linear
16th - U Tron - Non-Linear
Another 50/50 NL/L split among the decks that often come down to breakers. Still fine. Interesting decks starting to pop up too in U Tron and Temur Control. Sweet.
17-32 tell a fairly similar story.
Play what you want. We don't need bans, we need people to figure out where decks are best placed in the meta.
So your options for playing a non-linear deck are basically play Jund or be really good and really lucky with matchups and draws.
Or UW control, or Temur control, or U Tron, or any of the other non-linear decks that have been fine in the past few weeks and performed well despite an over abundance of linear decks...
None of the linear decks that did well had ANY luck either. All of these players on their dopey non-linear decks just prayed the whole day. Yep. That's EXACTLY it.
There's only 2 choices. Dredge was not a deck before SOI. It was a deck after it gained Neonate and Amalgam. So it's either of the two. Neonate is easily replaced by some other enabler like Burning Inquiry or Shriekhorn (in the Bridge-less version), Amalgam is more crucial to the deck.
The interesting question is how good Dredge would be if it loses Amalgam. You still have creatures that can be revived from the graveyard, except that they cost mana now (Stitchwing Skaab and Haunted Dead). I expect the deck would just load up on HDs, maybe throw in a Rally the Peasants or Scourge Devil to boost them, and max out on Life from the Loam for discard fodder. Without 4 free 3/3s in your deck, you can't race aggro/combo as well unless you get T3 HD into T4 Rally, but you still retain your advantage vs fair decks: lots and lots of recurring creatures.
So your options for playing a non-linear deck are basically play Jund or be really good and really lucky with matchups and draws.
Or UW control, or Temur control, or U Tron, or any of the other non-linear decks that have been fine in the past few weeks and performed well despite an over abundance of linear decks...
None of the linear decks that did well had ANY luck either. All of these players on their dopey non-linear decks just prayed the whole day. Yep. That's EXACTLY it.
I'm just summarizing and simplifying what you posted. The vast majority of the best options were either a linear strategy or Jund (and only Jund). In this particular weekend, basically all other strategies fell too much to variance/matchups. We saw it on coverage and we see it in the results. The real picture will be painted in two weeks, but I don't think we'll see much of a change.
What would you guys think that would be banned if there was a need to ban something from the dredge deck?
This deck seems to be the real deal.
Ps: I think nothing needs to be banned and the deck is OK though, as are all deck and the current meta is good. This is a thought exercise.
In his post-victory interview, Ross Merriam said the correct card to ban is Faithless Looting. Which, of course, would look very silly on the ban list. So maybe the right thing would be to re-ban GGT and admit that unbanning it was a mistake.
For clarity's sake, I don't think unbanning GGT was a mistake and I don't think anything needs to be banned. I was just following the hypothetical of "if something had to be banned from dredge..."
So your options for playing a non-linear deck are basically play Jund or be really good and really lucky with matchups and draws.
Or UW control, or Temur control, or U Tron, or any of the other non-linear decks that have been fine in the past few weeks and performed well despite an over abundance of linear decks...
None of the linear decks that did well had ANY luck either. All of these players on their dopey non-linear decks just prayed the whole day. Yep. That's EXACTLY it.
I'm just summarizing and simplifying what you posted. The vast majority of the best options were either a linear strategy or Jund (and only Jund). In this particular weekend, basically all other strategies fell too much to variance/matchups. We saw it on coverage and we see it in the results. The real picture will be painted in two weeks, but I don't think we'll see much of a change.
Things vary from week to week. In the last SCG Open there were two Jeskai Control decks in top 8, even further back we had one SCG Open of three Abzan CoCo decks in top 8. This was great weekend for Jund without a doubt but this doesn't mean that other reactive decks aren't viable or that they can't perform good in the current metagame.
Shhhhh - you'll ruin the narrative.
But really though - I think we're all excited to see what happens at the GPs and evaluate from there, but if the numbers stay as they currently are I don't see any serious argument for a ban or unban anywhere. Yes linear decks are doing extremely well, but non-linear decks have continued to do well enough to continue to top 32 with regularity. Seems fine to me as the line pushing things slightly towards linear is fairly shallow and could easily be tipped the other way with a new card in the non-linear camp. Wizards is VERY aware of blue's weaknesses in the current standard and Stoddard has basically promised a more pushed (read: equal to green) blue in the new standard so MAYBE with that we'll see some new modern playables that assist non-linear decks.
Wizards is VERY aware of blue's weaknesses in the current standard and Stoddard has basically promised a more pushed (read: equal to green) blue in the new standard so MAYBE with that we'll see some new modern playables that assist non-linear decks.
I wonder when this will go into effect. Unsubstantiate and Summary Dismissal are steps in the right direction, but they're also more often than not just worse than Remand and Cryptic Command. Plus, without unbanning Preordain, I don't know what they could do in terms of power that's better than Serum Visions in a new card. A Brainstorm-like effect for U at instant speed would be pretty cool, powered down for draw 2 put back 1, but Hell will freeze over before they make a card like that (or it gets banned 3 months later for combo/aggro abuse).
Wizards is VERY aware of blue's weaknesses in the current standard and Stoddard has basically promised a more pushed (read: equal to green) blue in the new standard so MAYBE with that we'll see some new modern playables that assist non-linear decks.
I wonder when this will go into effect. Unsubstantiate and Summary Dismissal are steps in the right direction, but they're also more often than not just worse than Remand and Cryptic Command. Plus, without unbanning Preordain, I don't know what they could do in terms of power that's better than Serum Visions in a new card. A Brainstorm-like effect for U at instant speed would be pretty cool, powered down for draw 2 put back 1, but Hell will freeze over before they make a card like that (or it gets banned 3 months later for combo/aggro abuse).
I think the best and safest cantrip they are willing to print right now is Opt. I want that card so bad - also another modern playable counterspell.
Wizards is VERY aware of blue's weaknesses in the current standard and Stoddard has basically promised a more pushed (read: equal to green) blue in the new standard so MAYBE with that we'll see some new modern playables that assist non-linear decks.
I wonder when this will go into effect. Unsubstantiate and Summary Dismissal are steps in the right direction, but they're also more often than not just worse than Remand and Cryptic Command. Plus, without unbanning Preordain, I don't know what they could do in terms of power that's better than Serum Visions in a new card. A Brainstorm-like effect for U at instant speed would be pretty cool, powered down for draw 2 put back 1, but Hell will freeze over before they make a card like that (or it gets banned 3 months later for combo/aggro abuse).
Yeah I've got no idea what this actually will look like. They've been saying over and over again though that they did miss the mark specifically on blue draw spells in the current standard and have used comparisons to Collected Company and Painful Truths to evidence what was an outpacing of card advantage over blue. If THOSE two cards are the ones they're comparing blue card draw to then I'd say that potentially we have something to look forward to.
They've also spoken at length recently about the desire for counterspell in modern from the playerbase and I'm sure they're trying to work on *something* that can pass through standard without being disastrous. Players have proposed standard-serious restrictions on counterspell that would be almost non restrictions in modern (something like you must exile a land from your graveyard as you play this spell) to functionally get the card here. Let's see what happens.
Bill - I think once the meta reacts to dredge (it ALWAYS happens) then we'll be fine. Sweepers + grave hate is pretty lights out against the deck.
Blue has actually had it rather well in the current Standard... when mixed with White.
You know what I'd immediately compare the tag team of Reflector Mage and Spell Queller in a Collected Company deck to?
The Cryptic Command Mistbind Clique crossup in Faeries.
It's a bit more ridiculous because CoCo makes it a spin of the wheel with results that can go as low as complete whiff or as high as Queller-Reflector while responding to a spell on the stack, but it has that same attitude of "get clowned during the combat step and lose a lot of tempo along the way, or get punished for trying to cast a spell."
But, admittedly, that's multicolor, not entirely representative of pure Blue.
Blue has actually had it rather well in the current Standard... when mixed with White.
You know what I'd immediately compare the tag team of Reflector Mage and Spell Queller in a Collected Company deck to?
The Cryptic Command Mistbind Clique crossup in Faeries.
It's a bit more ridiculous because CoCo makes it a spin of the wheel with results that can go as low as complete whiff or as high as Queller-Reflector while responding to a spell on the stack, but it has that same attitude of "get clowned during the combat step and lose a lot of tempo along the way, or get punished for trying to cast a spell."
But, admittedly, that's multicolor, not entirely representative of pure Blue.
Just give me Opt man, just give me Opt and a solid counterspell and I'm good.
And we're again into the blue being too bad discussion. I don't think blue needs anything at the moment. Jeskai is still good decent deck. Dredge is a problem for it but so is for other reactive decks with Jund included and Jeskai has enough options for sb to fight Dredge. Those who play it will need to start packing more hate against it as well as other deck's players and we will pass Dredge test.
No one said blue is bad. We were just talking about various cards that would slightly push non-linear strategies.. blue just happens to be central to many of those conversations.
And we're again into the blue being too bad discussion. I don't think blue needs anything at the moment. Jeskai is still good decent deck. Dredge is a problem for it but so is for other reactive decks with Jund included and Jeskai has enough options for sb to fight Dredge. Those who play it will need to start packing more hate against it as well as other deck's players and we will pass Dredge test.
yay sideboard modern!
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And we're again into the blue being too bad discussion. I don't think blue needs anything at the moment. Jeskai is still good decent deck. Dredge is a problem for it but so is for other reactive decks with Jund included and Jeskai has enough options for sb to fight Dredge. Those who play it will need to start packing more hate against it as well as other deck's players and we will pass Dredge test.
yay sideboard modern!
Is there any non-standard format where essential sideboard cards don't come into play in nearly every matchup? Legacy and vintage have extensive sideboard hate cards - in legacy the cards are sometimes as narrow as Ashen Rider to fight show and tell which feels absolutely disgusting. Can we drop this stupid argument and just admit that a symptom of an insanely deep card pool is that people will have to include cards to fight strategies that their regular 60 cards can't do? Hell, I bring in Ancestral Visions against Jund as a Fae player - am I just riding the sideboard wave?
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I think the scariest combo deck that it could break is Grishoalbrand. WoTC originally banned Ponder and Preordain because of Storm, it made the deck too consistent - but I believe that those were the wrong bans, I think the strongest rituals, Rite of flame and Seething Song should've been the targets. The good news is since then, these rituals have been banned, which leads me to believe that Preordain is safe to come off, and if it does break Grishoalbrand, then Goryo's Vengeance is the next, and correct, ban.
BBE doesn't need to be unbanned. June is doing just fine without it and any zoo deck that might want it as a curve topper has CoCo now.
Modern is better off without Splinter Twin. Its existence just shoehorns blue into subtle variations on the same deck.
SFM could probably be unbanned honestly. Jeskai has Nahiri now and I don't think it can fit SFM in the deck too, Abzan could use something to make it a viable choice over Jund, and Zoo probably wouldn't even play it. It's also kept in check by Kommand and Spell Snare.
RGTron
UGInfect
URStorm
WUBRAd Nauseam
BRGrishoalbrand
URGScapeshift
WBGAbzan Company
WUBRGAmulet Titan
BRGLiving End
WGBogles
Bloodbraid Elf... Honestly, if she was unbanned right now, I`m not sure I`d even play her in Jund. I`d try her out, obviously, but I just don`t see her outclassing Kalitas in this format, and there are too many cascade targets that can just miss. But as I just wrote, it`s so hard to say without significant testing. I`d sure love her as a curve-topper in big Zoo.
Stay reasonable, be mindful of your expectations and don't feed the trolls.
Doomsdayin'
Insolent Neonate could be an interesting one...leads to the most explosive starts to my knowledge.
DECKS:
UB Faeries [Midrange/Tempo]
RWUGB Affinity[Aggro]
FAERIES TOO STRONK!!!1111
- Fae Prophecy, 201
5678This is not true. If Wotc uses the ban list in a way to keep things in check, Modern will never be Legacy lite. It has the ability to if Wotc doesnt manage the format well though. The difference is some would rather let the format be with no management, others would rather a heavy hand. For me, as long as Legacy is still around and being played, Wotc keeps the heavy hand on Modern and keeps the format in check.
Also I think its great Standard cards are effecting Modern. Thats how it should be. When a set comes out it should add to all formats, not just one or two. With Standard cards effecting Modern, there is less spotlight on the ban list. Maybe some will forget about the ban list all together.
Neonate is almost better than Looting as it lets you start Dredging T1. The obvious ban would be Grave Troll, but I think banning Narcromoeba would be the right move.
Without it, it is a lot harder to trigger Amalgam and would make the deck a lot less explosive
Whenever a new deck shows up everyone gets super bummed that they need to change their 75 to adapt to the new deck - this is what is currently happening.
Agreed.
Also, for as 'dredge-y' as the top 32 of the last SCG was there was plenty of non-linear love to go around.
http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/deckshow.php?event_ID=47&t[T2]=28&start_date=2016-08-13&end_date=2016-08-13&state=NY&city=Syracuse&order_1=finish&limit=8&t_num=1&action=Show Decks
1st - Dredge - Linear
2nd - RG Breach - Linear but runs plenty of interaction
3rd - Jund - Non-Linear
4th - Infect - Linear
5th - UW Control - Non-Linear
6th - Dredge - Linear
7th - Jund - Non-Linear
8th - Jund - Non-Linear
That's a pretty good top 8 from a 'balance' standpoint. Again, we're seeing MULTIPLE different kinds of strategies able to put up good showings. For as much as the argument has been that you 'must' play a non-linear ignore your opponent deck, it's simply not been true.
9-16
9th - Jund - Non-Linear
10th - GW Hatebears - Right on the Non-Linear/Linear line (Heavily debated)
11th - Temur Control - Non-Linear
12th - Dredge - Linear
13th - Burn - Linear
14th - Affinity - Linear
15th - Jund - Non-Linear
16th - U Tron - Non-Linear
Another 50/50 NL/L split among the decks that often come down to breakers. Still fine. Interesting decks starting to pop up too in U Tron and Temur Control. Sweet.
17-32 tell a fairly similar story.
Play what you want. We don't need bans, we need people to figure out where decks are best placed in the meta.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
Or UW control, or Temur control, or U Tron, or any of the other non-linear decks that have been fine in the past few weeks and performed well despite an over abundance of linear decks...
None of the linear decks that did well had ANY luck either. All of these players on their dopey non-linear decks just prayed the whole day. Yep. That's EXACTLY it.
The interesting question is how good Dredge would be if it loses Amalgam. You still have creatures that can be revived from the graveyard, except that they cost mana now (Stitchwing Skaab and Haunted Dead). I expect the deck would just load up on HDs, maybe throw in a Rally the Peasants or Scourge Devil to boost them, and max out on Life from the Loam for discard fodder. Without 4 free 3/3s in your deck, you can't race aggro/combo as well unless you get T3 HD into T4 Rally, but you still retain your advantage vs fair decks: lots and lots of recurring creatures.
| Ad Nauseam
| Infect
Big Johnny.
I'm just summarizing and simplifying what you posted. The vast majority of the best options were either a linear strategy or Jund (and only Jund). In this particular weekend, basically all other strategies fell too much to variance/matchups. We saw it on coverage and we see it in the results. The real picture will be painted in two weeks, but I don't think we'll see much of a change.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
For clarity's sake, I don't think unbanning GGT was a mistake and I don't think anything needs to be banned. I was just following the hypothetical of "if something had to be banned from dredge..."
Standard: lol no
Modern: BG/x, UR/x, Burn, Merfolk, Zoo, Storm
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Delver (BUG, RUG, Grixis), Landstill, Depths Combo, Merfolk
Vintage: Dark Times, BUG Fish, Merfolk
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion / Krenko, Mob Boss / Stonebrow, Krosan Hero
Shhhhh - you'll ruin the narrative.
But really though - I think we're all excited to see what happens at the GPs and evaluate from there, but if the numbers stay as they currently are I don't see any serious argument for a ban or unban anywhere. Yes linear decks are doing extremely well, but non-linear decks have continued to do well enough to continue to top 32 with regularity. Seems fine to me as the line pushing things slightly towards linear is fairly shallow and could easily be tipped the other way with a new card in the non-linear camp. Wizards is VERY aware of blue's weaknesses in the current standard and Stoddard has basically promised a more pushed (read: equal to green) blue in the new standard so MAYBE with that we'll see some new modern playables that assist non-linear decks.
I wonder when this will go into effect. Unsubstantiate and Summary Dismissal are steps in the right direction, but they're also more often than not just worse than Remand and Cryptic Command. Plus, without unbanning Preordain, I don't know what they could do in terms of power that's better than Serum Visions in a new card. A Brainstorm-like effect for U at instant speed would be pretty cool, powered down for draw 2 put back 1, but Hell will freeze over before they make a card like that (or it gets banned 3 months later for combo/aggro abuse).
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
I think the best and safest cantrip they are willing to print right now is Opt. I want that card so bad - also another modern playable counterspell.
Yeah I've got no idea what this actually will look like. They've been saying over and over again though that they did miss the mark specifically on blue draw spells in the current standard and have used comparisons to Collected Company and Painful Truths to evidence what was an outpacing of card advantage over blue. If THOSE two cards are the ones they're comparing blue card draw to then I'd say that potentially we have something to look forward to.
They've also spoken at length recently about the desire for counterspell in modern from the playerbase and I'm sure they're trying to work on *something* that can pass through standard without being disastrous. Players have proposed standard-serious restrictions on counterspell that would be almost non restrictions in modern (something like you must exile a land from your graveyard as you play this spell) to functionally get the card here. Let's see what happens.
Bill - I think once the meta reacts to dredge (it ALWAYS happens) then we'll be fine. Sweepers + grave hate is pretty lights out against the deck.
You know what I'd immediately compare the tag team of Reflector Mage and Spell Queller in a Collected Company deck to?
The Cryptic Command Mistbind Clique crossup in Faeries.
It's a bit more ridiculous because CoCo makes it a spin of the wheel with results that can go as low as complete whiff or as high as Queller-Reflector while responding to a spell on the stack, but it has that same attitude of "get clowned during the combat step and lose a lot of tempo along the way, or get punished for trying to cast a spell."
But, admittedly, that's multicolor, not entirely representative of pure Blue.
Just give me Opt man, just give me Opt and a solid counterspell and I'm good.
No one said blue is bad. We were just talking about various cards that would slightly push non-linear strategies.. blue just happens to be central to many of those conversations.
decks playing:
none
Is there any non-standard format where essential sideboard cards don't come into play in nearly every matchup? Legacy and vintage have extensive sideboard hate cards - in legacy the cards are sometimes as narrow as Ashen Rider to fight show and tell which feels absolutely disgusting. Can we drop this stupid argument and just admit that a symptom of an insanely deep card pool is that people will have to include cards to fight strategies that their regular 60 cards can't do? Hell, I bring in Ancestral Visions against Jund as a Fae player - am I just riding the sideboard wave?