odd, i tested Geist as well (countersuit was 3x Mana Leak, 1x Remand, 2x Spell Snare the only MB answers) and i found it a nightmare MU, in fact on the draw whenever he cast a T2 foundry without 2/60 snare in hand i could as well concede on the spot, on the play i was a bit better but getting IoK into Foundry was disastrous as well...
also with the combo assembled geist was utterly irrelevant along with my entire deck, even sweeping his board with Avacyn's transform didn;t help as he generated another 4 tokens immediately after it...
post SB with 2x Stony Silence and 1x Wear//Tear things got slightly better but still not even, i'd say a 65-35 or even 70-30 MU thopter's favor
Most of the builds I'm testing start with 3x Remand, 2x Leak, and 2x Snare main. You may be selling the geist strategy a bit short by running so low on Remands.
Add to that they unbanned 2 cards in an under represented archetype and BBE slots right into an already existing Tier 1 deck and makes it better.
I agree with this. That said, I expect Jund to drop to Tier 2 or worse until/unless Eldrazi Temple is banned.
I feel like Jund will remain Tier 1. There simply are not going to be enough poor matchups (in percentage of people playing these decks) to keep it out. Not to mention, Jund can adapt very well by changing parts of their SB. I believe it is moreso than the average Modern deck. It still should do fine vs. Affinity, Infect, and many other random Aggro decks. I feel like it's close with decks wanting to run Sword or Ancestral Vision - maybe 50/50.
Jund did fine during Eldrazi at my LGS, but that evidence is anecdotal since we had less than 10% of the meta being Eldrazi.
I actually feel like the unbans are preemptively pointing a little bit at a future unban of Bloodbraid Elf. If those are okay, BBE should be okay as well. But Wizards doesn't want to unban too many cards at once. I'm VERY surprised they even did TWO at once. I would have thought that they like to do 1 unban and see how it works out before making more unbans. But I will admit that Sword of the Meek and Ancestral Vision don't seem to do much in Tier 1 in Modern right now. At least that is my opinion and I've seen people dispute that as well.
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i haven't had much difficulty vs sotm and i play geist... but spell snare is really the only recourse against thopter decks unless you're running other countermagic...
the ub tezz lists are better than the uw lists because of the discard and tezz as an alternate wincon and really if they have it there's not a good way to deal with it if you're not a t1 aggro deck that will consistently get in more damage before the engine starts kicking in... postboard the matchup is loads better but only if you're in white...
It is an easy combo to stop much like twin was if you are an interactive deck yes but like BBD said you need to do unfair things if you are going to play control in modern and I say in any eternal gormat outside of pauper. If the combo turns out to be good then thopter sword will have an advantage over other conttol decks in a diverse meta since they can always just do their unfair thing and steal games against unfavor as ble positions or matchups. If you build your deck in a way thst is not all in on the vombo you can easily transfotm into a control deck with bombs like twin did if the opponent has too much disruption. In no way am I saying the deck is good or if it will fill that void in the meta that twin had in the meta. It is too soon to say but what I do know is that you need to have a strong proactive plan in your deck yo succeed in a diverse metagame.
odd, i tested Geist as well (countersuit was 3x Mana Leak, 1x Remand, 2x Spell Snare the only MB answers) and i found it a nightmare MU, in fact on the draw whenever he cast a T2 foundry without 2/60 snare in hand i could as well concede on the spot, on the play i was a bit better but getting IoK into Foundry was disastrous as well...
also with the combo assembled geist was utterly irrelevant along with my entire deck, even sweeping his board with Avacyn's transform didn;t help as he generated another 4 tokens immediately after it...
post SB with 2x Stony Silence and 1x Wear//Tear things got slightly better but still not even, i'd say a 65-35 or even 70-30 MU thopter's favor
Most of the builds I'm testing start with 3x Remand, 2x Leak, and 2x Snare main. You may be selling the geist strategy a bit short by running so low on Remands.
i used to play even up to 4 remands, but in my region there's tons of aggro, getting paired repeatedly with affinity/burn/zoo and such, makes remand seem extremely underwhelming as they often play 2 spells on the turn you try to remand them... that said i agree with you, it's just not a proper meta call in my region, now with AV things get even weirder, as Remand seems a must have in blue mirrors but it's so damn underwhelming against the tons of aggro i'm facing
gotcha. Makes sense. That said, if aggro is that prevalent in your meta you probably don't want Geist to begin with.
Add to that they unbanned 2 cards in an under represented archetype and BBE slots right into an already existing Tier 1 deck and makes it better.
I agree with this. That said, I expect Jund to drop to Tier 2 or worse until/unless Eldrazi Temple is banned.
I feel like Jund will remain Tier 1. There simply are not going to be enough poor matchups (in percentage of people playing these decks) to keep it out. Not to mention, Jund can adapt very well by changing parts of their SB. I believe it is moreso than the average Modern deck. It still should do fine vs. Affinity, Infect, and many other random Aggro decks. I feel like it's close with decks wanting to run Sword or Ancestral Vision - maybe 50/50.
Jund did fine during Eldrazi at my LGS, but that evidence is anecdotal since we had less than 10% of the meta being Eldrazi.
I actually feel like the unbans are preemptively pointing a little bit at a future unban of Bloodbraid Elf. If those are okay, BBE should be okay as well. But Wizards doesn't want to unban too many cards at once. I'm VERY surprised they even did TWO at once. I would have thought that they like to do 1 unban and see how it works out before making more unbans. But I will admit that Sword of the Meek and Ancestral Vision don't seem to do much in Tier 1 in Modern right now. At least that is my opinion and I've seen people dispute that as well.
my fear of Eldrazi isn't about matchups. It's about eldrazi out junding jund. If wotc is right and they go more midrange, their tools and power level are simply better.
odd, i tested Geist as well (countersuit was 3x Mana Leak, 1x Remand, 2x Spell Snare the only MB answers) and i found it a nightmare MU, in fact on the draw whenever he cast a T2 foundry without 2/60 snare in hand i could as well concede on the spot, on the play i was a bit better but getting IoK into Foundry was disastrous as well...
also with the combo assembled geist was utterly irrelevant along with my entire deck, even sweeping his board with Avacyn's transform didn;t help as he generated another 4 tokens immediately after it...
post SB with 2x Stony Silence and 1x Wear//Tear things got slightly better but still not even, i'd say a 65-35 or even 70-30 MU thopter's favor
i'm pretty sure our lists differ a good deal and i probably didn't play anything close to optimized lists but the decks that just jam the combo in a UW shell or uwr have not been good.... i didn't even see the combo for the most part.. clique is really good against it also... as is surgical extraction...
anyone playing the thopter combo so far have been jamming it and relying on it to win on it's own... and that's probably a mistake... and even the UB tezz lists are ok but probably at best t2... you really only need to worry about thopter foundry and against ub ... tezz... and that's really it... the decks don't have another way to win so far and the combo doesn't drop often enough to be a problem... at least yet... and i think most thopter lists will need to include muddle the mixture because of that...
the combo isn't twin... and they don't do anything.. literally nothing without each other... so that puts extra pressure on the other parts of the deck... and the control lists were weak as is....
the chord decks are really good because they have tutor effects to make it really consistent and usually game winning on the spot... i'm pretty sure the thopter decks are going to need something similar or have an alternate gameplan that synergizes with the combo also....
this is still way too early and it's powerful enough that i think something will emerge but i think most are not thinking about the deck right so far...
Add to that they unbanned 2 cards in an under represented archetype and BBE slots right into an already existing Tier 1 deck and makes it better.
I agree with this. That said, I expect Jund to drop to Tier 2 or worse until/unless Eldrazi Temple is banned.
I feel like Jund will remain Tier 1. There simply are not going to be enough poor matchups (in percentage of people playing these decks) to keep it out. Not to mention, Jund can adapt very well by changing parts of their SB. I believe it is moreso than the average Modern deck. It still should do fine vs. Affinity, Infect, and many other random Aggro decks. I feel like it's close with decks wanting to run Sword or Ancestral Vision - maybe 50/50.
Jund did fine during Eldrazi at my LGS, but that evidence is anecdotal since we had less than 10% of the meta being Eldrazi.
I actually feel like the unbans are preemptively pointing a little bit at a future unban of Bloodbraid Elf. If those are okay, BBE should be okay as well. But Wizards doesn't want to unban too many cards at once. I'm VERY surprised they even did TWO at once. I would have thought that they like to do 1 unban and see how it works out before making more unbans. But I will admit that Sword of the Meek and Ancestral Vision don't seem to do much in Tier 1 in Modern right now. At least that is my opinion and I've seen people dispute that as well.
my fear of Eldrazi isn't about matchups. It's about eldrazi out junding jund. If wotc is right and they go more midrange, their tools and power level are simply better.
This is a good point, but decks like Processors or EldraziTron (now w/o Eye) won't be played in a high percentage in my opinion. I feel like those 2 decks AND GR Tron will probably be played at an overall percentage that GR Tron was alone before the Twin/Bloom bans (5.5% on themodernnexus.com).
Those decks won't be enough to hate Jund down to Tier 2 in my opinion. Those decks all have a pretty tough time with most of the decks that Jund beats like super quick Aggro decks. (I'm not saying that these are gimmes for Jund, but Jund is favored vs. decks like Affinity and Infect IMO.)
But I think what you're saying is that Eldrazi will have some effect on Midrange, as well as stonewalling smaller Aggro decks. In my opinion if it is done sparingly, it helps the meta be more diverse. It won't keep those 3 decks from Tier 2 though and Jund from Tier 1.
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It is an easy combo to stop much like twin was if you are an interactive deck yes but like BBD said you need to do unfair things if you are going to play control in modern and I say in any eternal gormat outside of pauper. If the combo turns out to be good then thopter sword will have an advantage over other conttol decks in a diverse meta since they can always just do their unfair thing and steal games against unfavor as ble positions or matchups. If you build your deck in a way thst is not all in on the vombo you can easily transfotm into a control deck with bombs like twin did if the opponent has too much disruption. In no way am I saying the deck is good or if it will fill that void in the meta that twin had in the meta. It is too soon to say but what I do know is that you need to have a strong proactive plan in your deck yo succeed in a diverse metagame.
i kind of categorize the thopter deck as an ultra fair deck if that makes sense.. it's not gaining a million life or doing a million damage in a turn... you're restricted by your mana but it's ultra efficient in using that mana....
as i've said before... it's not a good combo to just jam in... the individual pieces are too weak and not game ending for it to be jammed in... twin you could jam because that's game ending...
It is an easy combo to stop much like twin was if you are an interactive deck yes but like BBD said you need to do unfair things if you are going to play control in modern and I say in any eternal gormat outside of pauper. If the combo turns out to be good then thopter sword will have an advantage over other conttol decks in a diverse meta since they can always just do their unfair thing and steal games against unfavor as ble positions or matchups. If you build your deck in a way thst is not all in on the vombo you can easily transfotm into a control deck with bombs like twin did if the opponent has too much disruption. In no way am I saying the deck is good or if it will fill that void in the meta that twin had in the meta. It is too soon to say but what I do know is that you need to have a strong proactive plan in your deck yo succeed in a diverse metagame.
i kind of categorize the thopter deck as an ultra fair deck if that makes sense.. it's not gaining a million life or doing a million damage in a turn... you're restricted by your mana but it's ultra efficient in using that mana....
as i've said before... it's not a good combo to just jam in... the individual pieces are too weak and not game ending for it to be jammed in... twin you could jam because that's game ending...
That is why it is probably better to have in the meta than twin. Thopter you build around it a little at least and gives your opponent a chance to react although untapping after assembling it is pretty much game over for them unless they can combo kill you or kill the foundry and wipe the tokens. This is if the combo is good enough but conttol decks need some kind of way to just turn the game in a way that they just stop caring about their opponent and start executing their own game plan.
Great point. Jund is already a very well rounded deck and it doesn't NEED another "decent against everything" card in BBE right now. Maybe if the deck falls off then sure, perhaps later.
Thopter combo is pretty decent. Since the pieces do nothing on their own AND it costs mana, it makes it fair in my opinion. Academy Ruins gives them a little but of inevitability which I am iffy about but I can't really justify a complaint when the combo itself is pretty balanced and easily beatable. Any and every deck can SB Surgical Extraction btw.
It seems like AV needs to be a 4 of and somewhat built around for it to be maximally effective. I don't imagine it bein so good that it becomes the engine of every blue deck.
In Grixis control, I can't afford to run AV but I will be prepared against it with Remands. I decided to add 3-4 counterflux as the rest of the countersuite because I need hard counters to actually answer the things that I'm delaying with remand, and I got sick of conditional/dead counter spells late game. With main board Damnations and Terminates, the deck is doing well. Only thing it's lacking is a way to close out the game fast (ish). 3 Tar Pits and a Keranos aren't enough. With the more midrange version of this deck I was running more creatures so I could essentially burn them out the rest of the way but that's no longer going to be a consistent plan.
What good finishers are there for a true control deck in Grixis colors? And in general, for control decks what are some good finishers besides thopter combo?
If Jund becomes a non-competitive deck, hopefully Wizards will do the right thing and reban AV and/or SotM. If Jund is uncompetitive it means every midrange deck without blue in it is uncompetitive, which would be an outcome directly attributable to these unbans.
I see no way that BBE gets unbanned in anywhere close to the near future. They even mentioned it being on the banlists as one of the reasons they felt AV was a safe unban.. I'm not going to say I really agree that it's too good for Modern but just from what I see in Wizards reasonings, I don't think it will be considered for a while.
AF implied SoTM is to good in lantern to unban. Unbanned.
They made a promo sfm when no prior promos weren't modern legal. Still banned.
They printed twin in mm15. Banned 6 months later.
That statement means next to nothing. They've proven that the metagame drives their ban actions, not prior inconsistent statements.
You mean PT/GP Top 8s, and not "the metagame" as a whole, right?
oh you...
Honestly though, bans are simply just not predictable. We thought last format that we would see Amulet Bloom get hit and while it did, so did Twin. The speculation over bans this time around were preaching Eye of Ugin, Eldrazi Temple, Mox Opal and Simian Spirit Guide while calling for Visions, and Bloodbraid Elf Unbans. We saw only Eye of Ugin get banned and then saw Visions and Sword of the Meek make a "meek" return.
Wizards doesn't play test formats, they simply gather feedback and act as conservatively as possible.
Modern is like a snow globe when it comes to format comparisons. After awhile, the snow settles, and formats either have the perfect coating or its out of balance, but Wizards doesn't want to shake the snow globe, lest it becomes worse than it was.
When Wizards does bannings, especially since ban lists coincide with set releases, they have no idea what happens next, that is unpredictable. Who would have thought that dollar rares from Oath of the Gatewatch would be the basis for the most degenerate deck Modern has ever seen? Who thought that Splinter Twin discouraged format diversity and warped the meta? It doesn't matter. Wizards makes the call, and we have to live with it, which means that on occasion, they get it wrong.
I think this is a healthy "banlist," but I'm hesitant to say "good." We have no idea how big of an impact Visions and Sword of the Meek will have on the format, but the way the community is responding makes me think that control and midrange is definitely getting pushed again, but they want to ensure they don't reach Twin levels of "good."
Good on you Wizards, you shook the snow globe, now we'll see how it settles.
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Great point. Jund is already a very well rounded deck and it doesn't NEED another "decent against everything" card in BBE right now. Maybe if the deck falls off then sure, perhaps later.
Thopter combo is pretty decent. Since the pieces do nothing on their own AND it costs mana, it makes it fair in my opinion. Academy Ruins gives them a little but of inevitability which I am iffy about but I can't really justify a complaint when the combo itself is pretty balanced and easily beatable. Any and every deck can SB Surgical Extraction btw.
It seems like AV needs to be a 4 of and somewhat built around for it to be maximally effective. I don't imagine it bein so good that it becomes the engine of every blue deck.
In Grixis control, I can't afford to run AV but I will be prepared against it with Remands. I decided to add 3-4 counterflux as the rest of the countersuite because I need hard counters to actually answer the things that I'm delaying with remand, and I got sick of conditional/dead counter spells late game. With main board Damnations and Terminates, the deck is doing well. Only thing it's lacking is a way to close out the game fast (ish). 3 Tar Pits and a Keranos aren't enough. With the more midrange version of this deck I was running more creatures so I could essentially burn them out the rest of the way but that's no longer going to be a consistent plan.
What good finishers are there for a true control deck in Grixis colors? And in general, for control decks what are some good finishers besides thopter combo?
For Grixis colors?
Gurmag Angler and Tasigur are always solid options. I've seen some Grixis decks use Ob, Nixilis the Fallen, which is surprisingly effective.
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If Jund becomes a non-competitive deck, hopefully Wizards will do the right thing and reban AV and/or SotM. If Jund is uncompetitive it means every midrange deck without blue in it is uncompetitive, which would be an outcome directly attributable to these unbans.
As a Jund player, I think you sound ridiculous
You don't reban AV and Sword because poor Jund hits tier 2, or even tier 3.
For one, WOTC would look like morons unbanning the two and banning the two back so quickly
Three, unban BBE and see if that works
I would say go so far as to unban Shaman if that doesn't work, but I don't know if I can take myself serious with that suggestion
Sword and AV should be fine, as long as someone doesn't crack the format and come up with oppressive decks or combo's with the two cards
Hopefully there's no stupid eggs like combo because of Sword and Thopter
Did anyone actually read the ban announcement?
I think Wizards needs to hire a new PR writer... It's horrible.
It was not clear to most professional players that the Eldrazi deck was too strong, or even as strong as the alternatives.
Um... fairly certain it was.
You need to read the article more carefully. What they said was, relatively few pro players chose to play Eldrazi at the pro tour, which is a reasonable indication they didn't identify the deck beforehand as too strong or they would have played it.
If Jund becomes a non-competitive deck, hopefully Wizards will do the right thing and reban AV and/or SotM. If Jund is uncompetitive it means every midrange deck without blue in it is uncompetitive, which would be an outcome directly attributable to these unbans.
As a Jund player, I think you sound ridiculous
You don't reban AV and Sword because poor Jund hits tier 2, or even tier 3.
For one, WOTC would look like morons unbanning the two and banning the two back so quickly
Three, unban BBE and see if that works
I would say go so far as to unban Shaman if that doesn't work, but I don't know if I can take myself serious with that suggestion
Sword and AV should be fine, as long as someone doesn't crack the format and come up with oppressive decks or combo's with the two cards
Hopefully there's no stupid eggs like combo because of Sword and Thopter
We'll see, I look forward to seeing all the new competitively viable decks that are not either:
1) Linear and very fast
2) Playing Ancestral Visions
or
3) Creature combos
In the meantime I'll be drawing 3 until its rebanned.
If Jund becomes a non-competitive deck, hopefully Wizards will do the right thing and reban AV and/or SotM. If Jund is uncompetitive it means every midrange deck without blue in it is uncompetitive, which would be an outcome directly attributable to these unbans.
THE BAN MANIA CANNOT BE CONTAINED!!
No wonder major authors do nothing but write about Modern bans in every Modern article. The player-base can't talk about anything else but bans. New relevant cards get printed? Emergency ban them. New deck gets big? Ban staples from it. Pet deck doing poorly? Ban cards from opposing decks. New unban looks to shake up format? Reban it or ban cards it makes good. Wizards has some responsibility in this to make the format less ban-defined, but players share that responsibility too. Wizards is also very much pushing against that narrative in this recent update.
When we get major unbans, we should be preparing for and discussing new brews, new sideboard tech, new maindeck evolutions, new metagame shifts, and the new possibilities generally. People who already are calling for cards to be rebanned (??) less than four days after the announcement went live are harming the format. And before someone says "I'm not CALLING it to be banned; I'm just saying it could happen or might happen in Scenario X," that's tantamount to calling a ban because you're projecting for a scenario that is so ban-mania driven any more reasonable Modern player would never even bother opining on it.
If you're worried about the unbans, the ONLY appropriate response is "wait and see for more data" with no other re-banning caveats. Anything else is just a continuation in the ban mania which has wrought havoc on Modern and will continue to hurt the format until it is cut back.
If you're worried about the unbans, the ONLY appropriate response is "wait and see for more data" with no other re-banning caveats. Anything else is just a continuation in the ban mania which has wrought havoc on Modern and will continue to hurt the format until it is cut back.
This thread is almost entirely composed of unban mania which has or would wreak havoc on Modern and will continue to hurt the format until it is cut back. Wizards specifically mentioned BBE not being in the format as a contributing factor to the AV unban and yet 1/3? of the posts so far range from speculation about to begging for the unbanning of BBE.
It is difficult to understand how begging for unbans at this stage of the new format's development is any more appropriate than identifying what seems to be the competitive archetypes and speculating about rebans based on the impact of the latest changes.
But, hey, you're the boss. Just please don't ever quote percentages or refer to apparent community consensus in any posts based on feedback from this community when this is actually the "beg for unbans" thread, not the "banlist discussion" thread.
Lastly, I'm not worried about the unbans. I like playing Blue and who doesn't like drawing three. I'll happily play whatever the format is at any given time unless it becomes completely combo driven.
This thread is almost entirely composed of unban mania which has or would wreak havoc on Modern and will continue to hurt the format until it is cut back. Wizards specifically mentioned BBE not being in the format as a contributing factor to the AV unban and yet 1/3? of the posts so far range from speculation about to begging for the unbanning of BBE.
It is difficult to understand how begging for unbans at this stage of the new format's development is any more appropriate than identifying what seems to be the competitive archetypes and speculating about rebans based on the impact of the latest changes.
Unban discussion is definitely worse than identifying competitive archetypes. But rebans are worse than both by a huge margin. Wizards has never done a reban in a competitive format in the last decade-plus. It might be longer but I don't want to refer to that far back in time because I don't remember all the early bans off the top of my head. The closest was unbanning Entomb and then rebanning Mystical Tutor in Legacy less than a year later, but that was still a different card and wasn't entirely due to Reanimator. Up until now, Modern has had no significant unbans: the closest was Nacatl, but even that hasn't been format-defining. I can't blame people for wanting to see more exciting, safe, and powerful unbans, and I can't blame them for trying to argue that any given unban is exciting, safe, and powerful. They might be wrong on some of those counts, especially the "safe" one, but I see where they are coming from. By contrast, Wizards has already done plenty of major, format-changing bans. People are more excited to see possibilities added then possibilities removed, even if some bans do open up possibilities (most ban suggestions don't).
The standard response to someone begging for unbans needs to be "have you tested it?" 90% of unban proponents haven't, so the conversation can just stop there. If they have tested it, you can discuss results and talk about format impact.
But, hey, you're the boss. Just please don't ever quote percentages or refer to apparent community consensus in any posts based on feedback from this community when this is actually the "beg for unbans" thread, not the "banlist discussion" thread.
It's not a redtexted warning. I'm just saying ban mania and rebanning talk is ridiculous and bad for the format. People can still talk about it. Also, don't know where this "quote percentages" or "community consensus" bit is coming from. I never mentioned either and have no intention of it.
If Jund becomes a non-competitive deck, hopefully Wizards will do the right thing and reban AV and/or SotM. If Jund is uncompetitive it means every midrange deck without blue in it is uncompetitive, which would be an outcome directly attributable to these unbans.
This is dumb. Metas change, and jund doesnt "deserve" to be tier 1, nor is jund a marker of the viability of all midrange decks. If juns drops a few tiers, but say mardu/abzan become top tier, why is that bad? Simple answer is its not bad, it allows new decks to shine.
You need to read the article more carefully. What they said was, relatively few pro players chose to play Eldrazi at the pro tour, which is a reasonable indication they didn't identify the deck beforehand as too strong or they would have played it.
...At the Pro Tour. Before the very same Pro Tour top 32 shed light on the power of Eldrazi. And before 3 GPs in a weekend confirmed this power. And then there was all the subsequent tournaments and MODO results. At the time of the banning, it was clear to everyone. Or should have been.
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MODERN RGB Jund BGR WGB Junk/Abzan Company WGB
LEGACY RUGB Delver GURB
EDH UW Geist of Saint Traft Aggro-Control WU RUG Riku of Two Reflections Combo GUR BBB Skithiryx Control BB
Now that AV is unbanned, if the reality is that RG decks cease entirely to be represented in top performing decks, I feel we'll definitely have a majority of people supporting a Bloodbraid Elf unban. Considering it was at 40% before the changes, I could easily see 60% of players supporting her return to the format.
These are exactly the kind of "statistics" I was referring to above. Once we've self-selected the people that participate in the threads to those advocating for unbans, these numbers are even more meaningless than they were previously.
Unbanning BBE won't be the only alternative, powering up RG is one alternative, powering down U will also be one, again under the enormous presumption this scenario happens.
This is dumb. Metas change, and jund doesnt "deserve" to be tier 1, nor is jund a marker of the viability of all midrange decks. If juns drops a few tiers, but say mardu/abzan become top tier, why is that bad? Simple answer is its not bad, it allows new decks to shine.
The point I was making but apparently didn't spell out carefully enough is Jund was generally accepted to be the best midrange deck pre-unbans. If Jund wasn't viable, then by extension none of the other non-Blue midrange decks would be viable either, including mardu/abzan/etc. Or does mardu have some special secret sauce that makes it better when the opponent resolves a draw 3? Other non-blue midrange decks becoming viable would be an outstanding development. If that happens, the unbans will be a big success.
What evidence or line of reasoning do we have that will happen? We don't have any evidence it won't, but it is reasonable to think blue midrange\control decks are a lot stronger.
You need to read the article more carefully. What they said was, relatively few pro players chose to play Eldrazi at the pro tour, which is a reasonable indication they didn't identify the deck beforehand as too strong or they would have played it.
...At the Pro Tour. Before the very same Pro Tour top 32 shed light on the power of Eldrazi. And before 3 GPs in a weekend confirmed this power. And then there was all the subsequent tournaments and MODO results. At the time of the banning, it was clear to everyone. Or should have been.
This has been a tough day for me communicating apparently. Paraphrasing what Wizards said, they said the majority of pros didn't figure out Eldrazi was broken right away. Their evidence is the number of pros that played an Eldrazi deck in the field, under the presumption that if they figured out it was amazing, they'd have played it. The number in the Top 32, or the amount it was played AFTER the pro tour literally has nothing to do with what they said.
Wizards:
At the Pro tour, only about eight percent of the field played Eldrazi deck—the same amount played Infect, and more played Burn or Affinity. It was not clear to most professional players that the Eldrazi deck was too strong, or even as strong as the alternatives.
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Standard: lol no
Modern: BG/x, UR/x, Burn, Merfolk, Zoo, Storm
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Delver (BUG, RUG, Grixis), Landstill, Depths Combo, Merfolk
Vintage: Dark Times, BUG Fish, Merfolk
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion / Krenko, Mob Boss / Stonebrow, Krosan Hero
I feel like Jund will remain Tier 1. There simply are not going to be enough poor matchups (in percentage of people playing these decks) to keep it out. Not to mention, Jund can adapt very well by changing parts of their SB. I believe it is moreso than the average Modern deck. It still should do fine vs. Affinity, Infect, and many other random Aggro decks. I feel like it's close with decks wanting to run Sword or Ancestral Vision - maybe 50/50.
Jund did fine during Eldrazi at my LGS, but that evidence is anecdotal since we had less than 10% of the meta being Eldrazi.
I actually feel like the unbans are preemptively pointing a little bit at a future unban of Bloodbraid Elf. If those are okay, BBE should be okay as well. But Wizards doesn't want to unban too many cards at once. I'm VERY surprised they even did TWO
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)It is an easy combo to stop much like twin was if you are an interactive deck yes but like BBD said you need to do unfair things if you are going to play control in modern and I say in any eternal gormat outside of pauper. If the combo turns out to be good then thopter sword will have an advantage over other conttol decks in a diverse meta since they can always just do their unfair thing and steal games against unfavor as ble positions or matchups. If you build your deck in a way thst is not all in on the vombo you can easily transfotm into a control deck with bombs like twin did if the opponent has too much disruption. In no way am I saying the deck is good or if it will fill that void in the meta that twin had in the meta. It is too soon to say but what I do know is that you need to have a strong proactive plan in your deck yo succeed in a diverse metagame.
Standard: lol no
Modern: BG/x, UR/x, Burn, Merfolk, Zoo, Storm
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Delver (BUG, RUG, Grixis), Landstill, Depths Combo, Merfolk
Vintage: Dark Times, BUG Fish, Merfolk
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion / Krenko, Mob Boss / Stonebrow, Krosan Hero
Standard: lol no
Modern: BG/x, UR/x, Burn, Merfolk, Zoo, Storm
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Delver (BUG, RUG, Grixis), Landstill, Depths Combo, Merfolk
Vintage: Dark Times, BUG Fish, Merfolk
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion / Krenko, Mob Boss / Stonebrow, Krosan Hero
i'm pretty sure our lists differ a good deal and i probably didn't play anything close to optimized lists but the decks that just jam the combo in a UW shell or uwr have not been good.... i didn't even see the combo for the most part.. clique is really good against it also... as is surgical extraction...
anyone playing the thopter combo so far have been jamming it and relying on it to win on it's own... and that's probably a mistake... and even the UB tezz lists are ok but probably at best t2... you really only need to worry about thopter foundry and against ub ... tezz... and that's really it... the decks don't have another way to win so far and the combo doesn't drop often enough to be a problem... at least yet... and i think most thopter lists will need to include muddle the mixture because of that...
the combo isn't twin... and they don't do anything.. literally nothing without each other... so that puts extra pressure on the other parts of the deck... and the control lists were weak as is....
the chord decks are really good because they have tutor effects to make it really consistent and usually game winning on the spot... i'm pretty sure the thopter decks are going to need something similar or have an alternate gameplan that synergizes with the combo also....
this is still way too early and it's powerful enough that i think something will emerge but i think most are not thinking about the deck right so far...
Those decks won't be enough to hate Jund down to Tier 2 in my opinion. Those decks all have a pretty tough time with most of the decks that Jund beats like super quick Aggro decks. (I'm not saying that these are gimmes for Jund, but Jund is favored vs. decks like Affinity and Infect IMO.)
But I think what you're saying is that Eldrazi will have some effect on Midrange, as well as stonewalling smaller Aggro decks. In my opinion if it is done sparingly, it helps the meta be more diverse. It won't keep those 3 decks from Tier 2 though and Jund from Tier 1.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)i kind of categorize the thopter deck as an ultra fair deck if that makes sense.. it's not gaining a million life or doing a million damage in a turn... you're restricted by your mana but it's ultra efficient in using that mana....
as i've said before... it's not a good combo to just jam in... the individual pieces are too weak and not game ending for it to be jammed in... twin you could jam because that's game ending...
Also, would a Temur build with BBE and AV be any good? Isn`t it way too hard to engineer a cascade into AV?
Stay reasonable, be mindful of your expectations and don't feed the trolls.
Doomsdayin'
That is why it is probably better to have in the meta than twin. Thopter you build around it a little at least and gives your opponent a chance to react although untapping after assembling it is pretty much game over for them unless they can combo kill you or kill the foundry and wipe the tokens. This is if the combo is good enough but conttol decks need some kind of way to just turn the game in a way that they just stop caring about their opponent and start executing their own game plan.
Thopter combo is pretty decent. Since the pieces do nothing on their own AND it costs mana, it makes it fair in my opinion. Academy Ruins gives them a little but of inevitability which I am iffy about but I can't really justify a complaint when the combo itself is pretty balanced and easily beatable. Any and every deck can SB Surgical Extraction btw.
It seems like AV needs to be a 4 of and somewhat built around for it to be maximally effective. I don't imagine it bein so good that it becomes the engine of every blue deck.
In Grixis control, I can't afford to run AV but I will be prepared against it with Remands. I decided to add 3-4 counterflux as the rest of the countersuite because I need hard counters to actually answer the things that I'm delaying with remand, and I got sick of conditional/dead counter spells late game. With main board Damnations and Terminates, the deck is doing well. Only thing it's lacking is a way to close out the game fast (ish). 3 Tar Pits and a Keranos aren't enough. With the more midrange version of this deck I was running more creatures so I could essentially burn them out the rest of the way but that's no longer going to be a consistent plan.
What good finishers are there for a true control deck in Grixis colors? And in general, for control decks what are some good finishers besides thopter combo?
Honestly though, bans are simply just not predictable. We thought last format that we would see Amulet Bloom get hit and while it did, so did Twin. The speculation over bans this time around were preaching Eye of Ugin, Eldrazi Temple, Mox Opal and Simian Spirit Guide while calling for Visions, and Bloodbraid Elf Unbans. We saw only Eye of Ugin get banned and then saw Visions and Sword of the Meek make a "meek" return.
Wizards doesn't play test formats, they simply gather feedback and act as conservatively as possible.
Modern is like a snow globe when it comes to format comparisons. After awhile, the snow settles, and formats either have the perfect coating or its out of balance, but Wizards doesn't want to shake the snow globe, lest it becomes worse than it was.
When Wizards does bannings, especially since ban lists coincide with set releases, they have no idea what happens next, that is unpredictable. Who would have thought that dollar rares from Oath of the Gatewatch would be the basis for the most degenerate deck Modern has ever seen? Who thought that Splinter Twin discouraged format diversity and warped the meta? It doesn't matter. Wizards makes the call, and we have to live with it, which means that on occasion, they get it wrong.
I think this is a healthy "banlist," but I'm hesitant to say "good." We have no idea how big of an impact Visions and Sword of the Meek will have on the format, but the way the community is responding makes me think that control and midrange is definitely getting pushed again, but they want to ensure they don't reach Twin levels of "good."
Good on you Wizards, you shook the snow globe, now we'll see how it settles.
For Grixis colors?
Gurmag Angler and Tasigur are always solid options. I've seen some Grixis decks use Ob, Nixilis the Fallen, which is surprisingly effective.
I think Wizards needs to hire a new PR writer... It's horrible.
Um... fairly certain it was.
As a Jund player, I think you sound ridiculous
You don't reban AV and Sword because poor Jund hits tier 2, or even tier 3.
For one, WOTC would look like morons unbanning the two and banning the two back so quickly
Three, unban BBE and see if that works
I would say go so far as to unban Shaman if that doesn't work, but I don't know if I can take myself serious with that suggestion
Sword and AV should be fine, as long as someone doesn't crack the format and come up with oppressive decks or combo's with the two cards
Hopefully there's no stupid eggs like combo because of Sword and Thopter
You need to read the article more carefully. What they said was, relatively few pro players chose to play Eldrazi at the pro tour, which is a reasonable indication they didn't identify the deck beforehand as too strong or they would have played it.
We'll see, I look forward to seeing all the new competitively viable decks that are not either:
1) Linear and very fast
2) Playing Ancestral Visions
or
3) Creature combos
In the meantime I'll be drawing 3 until its rebanned.
THE BAN MANIA CANNOT BE CONTAINED!!
No wonder major authors do nothing but write about Modern bans in every Modern article. The player-base can't talk about anything else but bans. New relevant cards get printed? Emergency ban them. New deck gets big? Ban staples from it. Pet deck doing poorly? Ban cards from opposing decks. New unban looks to shake up format? Reban it or ban cards it makes good. Wizards has some responsibility in this to make the format less ban-defined, but players share that responsibility too. Wizards is also very much pushing against that narrative in this recent update.
When we get major unbans, we should be preparing for and discussing new brews, new sideboard tech, new maindeck evolutions, new metagame shifts, and the new possibilities generally. People who already are calling for cards to be rebanned (??) less than four days after the announcement went live are harming the format. And before someone says "I'm not CALLING it to be banned; I'm just saying it could happen or might happen in Scenario X," that's tantamount to calling a ban because you're projecting for a scenario that is so ban-mania driven any more reasonable Modern player would never even bother opining on it.
If you're worried about the unbans, the ONLY appropriate response is "wait and see for more data" with no other re-banning caveats. Anything else is just a continuation in the ban mania which has wrought havoc on Modern and will continue to hurt the format until it is cut back.
This thread is almost entirely composed of unban mania which has or would wreak havoc on Modern and will continue to hurt the format until it is cut back. Wizards specifically mentioned BBE not being in the format as a contributing factor to the AV unban and yet 1/3? of the posts so far range from speculation about to begging for the unbanning of BBE.
It is difficult to understand how begging for unbans at this stage of the new format's development is any more appropriate than identifying what seems to be the competitive archetypes and speculating about rebans based on the impact of the latest changes.
But, hey, you're the boss. Just please don't ever quote percentages or refer to apparent community consensus in any posts based on feedback from this community when this is actually the "beg for unbans" thread, not the "banlist discussion" thread.
Lastly, I'm not worried about the unbans. I like playing Blue and who doesn't like drawing three. I'll happily play whatever the format is at any given time unless it becomes completely combo driven.
Unban discussion is definitely worse than identifying competitive archetypes. But rebans are worse than both by a huge margin. Wizards has never done a reban in a competitive format in the last decade-plus. It might be longer but I don't want to refer to that far back in time because I don't remember all the early bans off the top of my head. The closest was unbanning Entomb and then rebanning Mystical Tutor in Legacy less than a year later, but that was still a different card and wasn't entirely due to Reanimator. Up until now, Modern has had no significant unbans: the closest was Nacatl, but even that hasn't been format-defining. I can't blame people for wanting to see more exciting, safe, and powerful unbans, and I can't blame them for trying to argue that any given unban is exciting, safe, and powerful. They might be wrong on some of those counts, especially the "safe" one, but I see where they are coming from. By contrast, Wizards has already done plenty of major, format-changing bans. People are more excited to see possibilities added then possibilities removed, even if some bans do open up possibilities (most ban suggestions don't).
The standard response to someone begging for unbans needs to be "have you tested it?" 90% of unban proponents haven't, so the conversation can just stop there. If they have tested it, you can discuss results and talk about format impact.
It's not a redtexted warning. I'm just saying ban mania and rebanning talk is ridiculous and bad for the format. People can still talk about it. Also, don't know where this "quote percentages" or "community consensus" bit is coming from. I never mentioned either and have no intention of it.
This is dumb. Metas change, and jund doesnt "deserve" to be tier 1, nor is jund a marker of the viability of all midrange decks. If juns drops a few tiers, but say mardu/abzan become top tier, why is that bad? Simple answer is its not bad, it allows new decks to shine.
UWRjeskai nahiri UWR
UBRgrixis titi UBR
UBRgrixis delverUBR
UR ur kikimite UR
EDH
RUG Riku of Two Reflections RUG
UBR Marchesa, the Black Rose UBR
UBRGYidris, Maelstrom Wielder UBRG
UBRJeleva, Nephalia's ScourgeUBR
...At the Pro Tour. Before the very same Pro Tour top 32 shed light on the power of Eldrazi. And before 3 GPs in a weekend confirmed this power. And then there was all the subsequent tournaments and MODO results. At the time of the banning, it was clear to everyone. Or should have been.
RGB Jund BGR
WGB Junk/Abzan Company WGB
LEGACY
RUGB Delver GURB
EDH
UW Geist of Saint Traft Aggro-Control WU
RUG Riku of Two Reflections Combo GUR
BBB Skithiryx Control BB
These are exactly the kind of "statistics" I was referring to above. Once we've self-selected the people that participate in the threads to those advocating for unbans, these numbers are even more meaningless than they were previously.
Unbanning BBE won't be the only alternative, powering up RG is one alternative, powering down U will also be one, again under the enormous presumption this scenario happens.
The point I was making but apparently didn't spell out carefully enough is Jund was generally accepted to be the best midrange deck pre-unbans. If Jund wasn't viable, then by extension none of the other non-Blue midrange decks would be viable either, including mardu/abzan/etc. Or does mardu have some special secret sauce that makes it better when the opponent resolves a draw 3? Other non-blue midrange decks becoming viable would be an outstanding development. If that happens, the unbans will be a big success.
What evidence or line of reasoning do we have that will happen? We don't have any evidence it won't, but it is reasonable to think blue midrange\control decks are a lot stronger.
This has been a tough day for me communicating apparently. Paraphrasing what Wizards said, they said the majority of pros didn't figure out Eldrazi was broken right away. Their evidence is the number of pros that played an Eldrazi deck in the field, under the presumption that if they figured out it was amazing, they'd have played it. The number in the Top 32, or the amount it was played AFTER the pro tour literally has nothing to do with what they said.
Wizards: