I'd love to have BBE in big zoo. It's probably at roughly the same or slightly lower power level as Collected Company in terms of consistency of potential hits.
It might be the card to push Big Zoo back into tier 1-1.5 and potentially diversify zoo builds.
Guys please opinions on japanese cards. Lost a 3/3 creature against Japan celestial colonade. This guy played all creatures and spells in english cards, but some cards in his manabase was japanese. I dont registrated this really ( my brain say its all fine and all english to me lets attack his empty board)...and i am sure it is a Kind of legal cheating. It is not ok, but i know legal. I Hate such people. I never forget colonade normally, but with this Tricks it can happen one time in 3 years and such people take advantage of this
If I am a customer spending premium amount of dollars, I expect a premium service. Jund falls into the category of a premium deck costing more dollars than a majority of the rest of the format. I'm not getting the desired performance ratio per dollars spent out of the Jund deck because WOTC decided to make the format more diverse.
In fact, for the 1st time in here someone did say to pre-ban a card we have not yet seen in play. Those posts should be deleted, really.
Heck, pros are doing it. Remember when Tom Ross said he thought Nahiri would be the next ban?
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Modern's linear decks are diverse enough as-is. We don't need even more of them to increase the sideboard and matchup lottery. I'm sure Wizards feels similarly and would never unban a T4 rule violator that also made those vioalations after the format's formal start date. GGT was more of a speculative ban without any data. On the other hand, Song and all T4 rule violator bans past PT Philly had strong supporting evidence and Wizards isn't going to reverse those decisions just to make Modern more linear. I fully expect we don't see a T4 rule violator unbanned in at least two years.
Wasn't the SSong ban kind of sketchy when it happened? Storm wasn't exactly a tier 1 deck when it got the chop along with BBE. It was widely played online I believe but it didn't put up any meaningful paper results.
According to the Turn 4 philosophy currently in practice (one which decided the fate of Summer Bloom) wasn't that ban kind of premature? From today's perspective it would make about as much sense as banning Goroyo's Vengeance to uphold the Turn 4 rule within the Tier 10.
I'm not really pushing that hard for this, but I think this case does show how banning criteria changes over time, even if only gradually.
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In my dream, the world had suffered a terrible disaster. A black haze shut out the sun, and the darkness was alive with the moans and screams of wounded people. Suddenly, a small light glowed. A candle flickered into life, symbol of hope for millions. A single tiny candle, shining in the ugly dark. I laughed and blew it out.
Many thanks to HotP Studios. Special thanks to DNC for this great sig.
Modern's linear decks are diverse enough as-is. We don't need even more of them to increase the sideboard and matchup lottery. I'm sure Wizards feels similarly and would never unban a T4 rule violator that also made those vioalations after the format's formal start date. GGT was more of a speculative ban without any data. On the other hand, Song and all T4 rule violator bans past PT Philly had strong supporting evidence and Wizards isn't going to reverse those decisions just to make Modern more linear. I fully expect we don't see a T4 rule violator unbanned in at least two years.
Wasn't the SSong ban kind of sketchy when it happened? Storm wasn't exactly a tier 1 deck when it got the chop along with BBE. It was widely played online I believe but it didn't put up any meaningful paper results.
According to the Turn 4 philosophy currently in practice (one which decided the fate of Summer Bloom) wasn't that ban kind of premature? From today's perspective it would make about as much sense as banning Goroyo's Vengeance to uphold the Turn 4 rule within the Tier 10.
I'm not really pushing that hard for this, but I think this case does show how banning criteria changes over time, even if only gradually.
It was the second most-played deck on MTGO and had percentages I would categorize as Tier 2 in paper. That's not categorically "Tier 1" but it's almost certainly "top-tier," which is what Wizards cares about in executing the T4 rule based on metagame shares. Storm's cost was a factor in its prevalence, but that doesn't change the prevalence numbers themselves and the ban was still consistent with other t4 bans.
Besides, why the heck would anyone want MORE linear decks in Modern? Wizards almost certainly doesn't and Song does exactly that.
I have to be honest and say that I have a soft spot for Storm decks - the way combos used to be played in the old days. The creature based breed of combos (boggles, infect, w/e) present in Modern just don't cut it for me. There is always Ad Nauseam, but I prefer Storm for nostalgic reasons.
That being said, I don't think that any bans/unbans are required at this time since the format is in a really nice place as it is. It's just a shame that Storm isn't actually a part of the big picture. Seething Song might be too steep of a price to achieve that but it sure would be nice to play with Storm competitively again. Others would disagree I'm sure but there is no accounting for taste...
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In my dream, the world had suffered a terrible disaster. A black haze shut out the sun, and the darkness was alive with the moans and screams of wounded people. Suddenly, a small light glowed. A candle flickered into life, symbol of hope for millions. A single tiny candle, shining in the ugly dark. I laughed and blew it out.
Many thanks to HotP Studios. Special thanks to DNC for this great sig.
What card would have the best chance of seeing an un-Ban at this go around?
I really doubt anything will get unbanned, considering how recently we got unbans. But if anything were to get unbanned, I think the most likely one would be Stoneforge Mystic. Which kind of speaks of the likelihood of an unban this time...
I have to be honest and say that I have a soft spot for Storm decks - the way combos used to be played in the old days. The creature based breed of combos (boggles, infect, w/e) present in Modern just don't cut it for me. There is always Ad Nauseam, but I prefer Storm for nostalgic reasons.
That being said, I don't think that any bans/unbans are required at this time since the format is in a really nice place as it is. It's just a shame that Storm isn't actually a part of the big picture. Seething Song might be too steep of a price to achieve that but it sure would be nice to play with Storm competitively again. Others would disagree I'm sure but there is no accounting for taste...
I feel badly. The reason why is that there are probably a minimum of 10 cards that Wizards will look over to unban before considering Seething Song. I think it should be in the top 5. Here's the reason. The mechanic, Storm, itself was deemed too powerful and if you look at old podcasts by Maro, he admits that it was a big mistake. Many people just hate these types of decks with a passion, especially in Modern. In Legacy, players are more lenient because they are doing horribly broken stuff themselves and the deck is much tougher to play. My first Vintage deck was TES (The Perfect Storm) over 10 years ago. I loved winning on turn 1 or 2 through disruption. Storm is just simply a deck that Wizards does not want to make more powerful in any form or way. I wouldn't be surprised if they specifically look at cards they print to make sure that they won't help Modern Storm. Even Storm in its current form can easily go off turn 3 or 4 if not disrupted.
But I will say that I would love it if it had a chance. When I saw Caleb Durward mention it in his "banned videos" on CFB over a year ago, it got me a bit hyped up, but I got shut down here. I realized that many Modern players don't want any more Combo decks in this format - at least good ones. Storm, Eggs, and Dredge are high on the list of decks that Wizards doesn't want to help, although I'm not sure why they printed Prized Amalgam and Insolent Neonate. That seemed kind of risky by their standards.
@GKourou - Bloodbraid Elf is a card that I hate with a passion, mostly because of its ability previously in Standard to wreck my DCI rating at the time. But I do agree with you (and others) that it's probably fine right now. Kalitas is better against Aggro and Bloodbraid Elf is better against Control and probably non-creature/graveyard based Combo. As for right now, no changes need to be made because we need a chance to marinate for a bit. When it gets stale, a BBE unban could help a little.
Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
I believe that BBE can be safely unbanned now. Kalitas is a card Jund players will prefer in most of the meta environments. This card is insane.
I do not own Jund on modo or online so i an not biased. Les get this over with.
I still have my doubts about bbe. A lot of the people saying a blue deck with bbe would not work in modern because of the nonbo with countermagic and that a u deck without countermagic will not be competitive do not see that such decks already exist and are quite good. Gdd blue moon is a very underrated deck that can grind anything out and is actually decent against aggro. A similar deck with green in exchange for moon to add bbe and other green good stuff might be a bit too powerful with the ability to recur ancestral visions and also cheat the cast sometimes.
If anything is getting the axe this banlist my money is on Collected company or Chord of calling. Chord being the better bet of the 2 since it tutors. Though I think it's probably premature for a ban, Eldritch Evolution could put that list over the accepted limit.
I don't think there will be any unbans either, Ancestral Vision and Sword of the Meek are still relatively new toys, and Nahiri decks are still evolving. For a potential unban I'm gonna go out on a limb and call Bloodbraid Elf. Wildcard i know, but it's more realistic than most of the other options(SFM, Jace, MM)
In fact, for the 1st time in here someone did say to pre-ban a card we have not yet seen in play. Those posts should be deleted, really.
I didn't call to ban EE since I have no idea if it's even good or not. I said CoCo and Chord, which was the better option as well since R&D doesn't like how tutors lead to the same gamestates. It fits the criteria from post 1 in this thread "Other cards have been banned because they make certain decks too consistent/reliable and thus stagnate the format." With EE it allows Melria based combo decks access to 8 tutors. Birthing Pod was banned for that exact reason in this exact deck. It goes with R&D current philosophy on tutors. I even said it was premature for a ban for that deck, but R&D has been proactive with the Modern banlist before with this deck. The format is pretty healthy ATM so anything would have to be proactive be definition.
BBE vs Kalitas was my line of thinking of why it was the most likely target for an unban. I don't know if the deck even wants it anymore. It would be nice since it was just printed in EMA too. Though if it is still "that" good we will all be playing jund all day again.
If anything is getting the axe this banlist my money is on Collected company or Chord of calling. Chord being the better bet of the 2 since it tutors. Though I think it's probably premature for a ban, Eldritch Evolution could put that list over the accepted limit.
I don't think there will be any unbans either, Ancestral Vision and Sword of the Meek are still relatively new toys, and Nahiri decks are still evolving. For a potential unban I'm gonna go out on a limb and call Bloodbraid Elf. Wildcard i know, but it's more realistic than most of the other options(SFM, Jace, MM)
In fact, for the 1st time in here someone did say to pre-ban a card we have not yet seen in play. Those posts should be deleted, really.
I didn't call to ban EE since I have no idea if it's even good or not. I said CoCo and Chord, which was the better option as well since R&D doesn't like how tutors lead to the same gamestates. It fits the criteria from post 1 in this thread "Other cards have been banned because they make certain decks too consistent/reliable and thus stagnate the format." With EE it allows Melria based combo decks access to 8 tutors. Birthing Pod was banned for that exact reason in this exact deck. It goes with R&D current philosophy on tutors. I even said it was premature for a ban for that deck, but R&D has been proactive with the Modern banlist before with this deck. The format is pretty healthy ATM so anything would have to be proactive be definition.
BBE vs Kalitas was my line of thinking of why it was the most likely target for an unban. I don't know if the deck even wants it anymore. It would be nice since it was just printed in EMA too. Though if it is still "that" good we will all be playing jund all day again.
Chord is a clunky card and this card does not fit into their ban plans. The card is too bad until turn 4 as well, so there is another disadvantage.
Collected Company can be a bit of a gample and it's on 4 mana.
Those cards are totally safe.
Move on to another subject.
Do you think there is another more likely card to be banned? People thought Birthing Pod and Splinter Twin were safe too.
Do you think there is another more likely card to be banned? People thought Birthing Pod and Splinter Twin were safe too.
Those were bans during the PT era. For now, I'm going to keep going with the philosophy that Wizards will drastically slow down their ban schedule with no more PT to influence it. If we can get from April 2016 through April 2017 without any bans, I'll feel very good about that decision. But if Wizards just bans something else in between those dates, especially if it's not some new, horribly broken card, then I'll discount this "new philosophy" as being smoke and mirrors.
For now, I'm assuming Wizards is going to stick to their word and we won't see any bans in this stable, diverse metagame.
Infect is clearly the best? To what does it owe this clarity of its position of number 1? I mean, maybe you could accurately say it is arguably the best - but even that argument would be pretty tough considering GR tron, Jund and affinity (along with the other tier 1 decks) all have cases to make for that spot. Is there any empirical basis for this belief or is it just something you "believe"?
edit: This is even built upon the base assumption that there is a #1 at all, which does not seem consistent with our evidence.
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I honestly feel infect is fine. I see why people dislike it, but i would be rather sad to see it go. Infect and jund are my favorite decks to play against in all of modern, the matchups are skill intensive, very tense and swingy, and all about getting the most out of each card to create pseudo card advantage. I do see why some do not like infect, i personally used to have an 0-8 record against infect in a deck with 4x bolt 3x helix 4x path and 4x snap, just because you have to play against that deck so differently. I can now proudly say im something like 5-12 and would rather see island banned than something from infect.
Even if they did ban something, I strongly believe Infect is too strong now and clearly the best deck with this new configuration of theirs(4 become immenses main).
Their nut draws are totally un winnable from almost any deck and it's way too goldfishy and breaks turn 4 rule a lot. Of course it has its bad matchups in Jund, Jeskai but if they go nutdraw they can win or else an inkmoth nexus with a become immense can win out of nowhere.
If PT was still a thing, I would expect that card to be banned come next January. I do not now. I am still unsure about Infect. If it starts winning, it could be in a bad spot. But now, it's perfectly safe, and with no PT even safer.
Infect is too easy to disrupt. Breaking to turn 4 rule requires to being completely vulnerable to a single kill/counter spell. Mutagenic Growth leads to much more t2 kills than Become Immense, though the work particularity well together.
Even if they did ban something, I strongly believe Infect is too strong now and clearly the best deck with this new configuration of theirs(4 become immenses main).
Their nut draws are totally un winnable from almost any deck and it's way too goldfishy and breaks turn 4 rule a lot. Of course it has its bad matchups in Jund, Jeskai but if they go nutdraw they can win or else an inkmoth nexus with a become immense can win out of nowhere.
If PT was still a thing, I would expect that card to be banned come next January. I do not now. I am still unsure about Infect. If it starts winning, it could be in a bad spot. But now, it's perfectly safe, and with no PT even safer.
Infect is too easy to disrupt. Breaking to turn 4 rule requires to being completely vulnerable to a single kill/counter spell. Mutagenic Growth leads to much more t2 kills than Become Immense, though the work particularity well together.
It's not always that easy to disrupt. I played last Thursday and my opponent was on the play (I'm on UB Fae). I keep a hand with a darkslick shores, 2 islands, bitterblossom, inquisition, disfigure, Clique. Snap Keep.
T1 Opponent - Pendelhaven - Glistener Elf - pass
T1 Me - Darkslick - Disfigure - Opponent responds with Mutagenic Growth
T2 Opponent - Forest - Groundswell - Might of Old Krosa - Mutagenic - Lethal
So, no, you can't always stop a turn 2 through disruption. With that said, we both had a laugh because such a hand through disruption is absurd.
Even if they did ban something, I strongly believe Infect is too strong now and clearly the best deck with this new configuration of theirs(4 become immenses main).
Their nut draws are totally un winnable from almost any deck and it's way too goldfishy and breaks turn 4 rule a lot. Of course it has its bad matchups in Jund, Jeskai but if they go nutdraw they can win or else an inkmoth nexus with a become immense can win out of nowhere.
If PT was still a thing, I would expect that card to be banned come next January. I do not now. I am still unsure about Infect. If it starts winning, it could be in a bad spot. But now, it's perfectly safe, and with no PT even safer.
Infect is too easy to disrupt. Breaking to turn 4 rule requires to being completely vulnerable to a single kill/counter spell. Mutagenic Growth leads to much more t2 kills than Become Immense, though the work particularity well together.
It's not always that easy to disrupt. I played last Thursday and my opponent was on the play (I'm on UB Fae). I keep a hand with a darkslick shores, 2 islands, bitterblossom, inquisition, disfigure, Clique. Snap Keep.
T1 Opponent - Pendelhaven - Glistener Elf - pass
T1 Me - Darkslick - Disfigure - Opponent responds with Mutagenic Growth
T2 Opponent - Forest - Groundswell - Might of Old Krosa - Mutagenic - Lethal
So, no, you can't always stop a turn 2 through disruption. With that said, we both had a laugh because such a hand through disruption is absurd.
Getting an Infect hand like that is literally the reason you play the deck, if it was so easy to disrupt as many people like to say, I don't think it would be as popular as it is now.
Even if they did ban something, I strongly believe Infect is too strong now and clearly the best deck with this new configuration of theirs(4 become immenses main).
Their nut draws are totally un winnable from almost any deck and it's way too goldfishy and breaks turn 4 rule a lot. Of course it has its bad matchups in Jund, Jeskai but if they go nutdraw they can win or else an inkmoth nexus with a become immense can win out of nowhere.
If PT was still a thing, I would expect that card to be banned come next January. I do not now. I am still unsure about Infect. If it starts winning, it could be in a bad spot. But now, it's perfectly safe, and with no PT even safer.
Infect is too easy to disrupt. Breaking to turn 4 rule requires to being completely vulnerable to a single kill/counter spell. Mutagenic Growth leads to much more t2 kills than Become Immense, though the work particularity well together.
It's not always that easy to disrupt. I played last Thursday and my opponent was on the play (I'm on UB Fae). I keep a hand with a darkslick shores, 2 islands, bitterblossom, inquisition, disfigure, Clique. Snap Keep.
T1 Opponent - Pendelhaven - Glistener Elf - pass
T1 Me - Darkslick - Disfigure - Opponent responds with Mutagenic Growth
T2 Opponent - Forest - Groundswell - Might of Old Krosa - Mutagenic - Lethal
So, no, you can't always stop a turn 2 through disruption. With that said, we both had a laugh because such a hand through disruption is absurd.
Getting an Infect hand like that is literally the reason you play the deck, if it was so easy to disrupt as many people like to say, I don't think it would be as popular as it is now.
Yes indeed. Sometimes it just happens, you take your beats, and you move on. People trying to downplay this aspect of the deck are wrong, and people trying to act like it happens all of the time are wrong.
Gkourou - Fae IS love/life. AV is helping the deck a ton.
Infect is clearly the best? To what does it owe this clarity of its position of number 1? I mean, maybe you could accurately say it is arguably the best - but even that argument would be pretty tough considering GR tron, Jund and affinity (along with the other tier 1 decks) all have cases to make for that spot. Is there any empirical basis for this belief or is it just something you "believe"?
edit: This is even built upon the base assumption that there is a #1 at all, which does not seem consistent with our evidence.
Internet those days. You have to put IMO if you want to be understood. I did say "in my opinion". Nothing is final, nothing is determined, just an opinion from someone who always seemed to believe Infect was OK and still believes it's away from banning. Just way more goldfishy, turn 4 rule violator if it's not for double disruption/removal and stronger than everything else. IMO.
I M O.
I'm not sure why people feel like their opinions are beyond criticism. I didn't intend to imply that you were stating it to be a consensus best deck, but rather I was trying to get you to back up your opinion with empirical data. I mean, I could have the opinion that elvish mystic is the best card in the format - but I wouldn't be immune to criticism because I put IMO in the post as a shield.
"IMO" is not a shield from criticism. If you have an opinion you can't support with empirical evidence, maybe it's not worth mentioning (as in, holds no value for anyone but yourself).
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Infect is clearly the best? To what does it owe this clarity of its position of number 1? I mean, maybe you could accurately say it is arguably the best - but even that argument would be pretty tough considering GR tron, Jund and affinity (along with the other tier 1 decks) all have cases to make for that spot. Is there any empirical basis for this belief or is it just something you "believe"?
edit: This is even built upon the base assumption that there is a #1 at all, which does not seem consistent with our evidence.
Internet those days. You have to put IMO if you want to be understood. I did say "in my opinion". Nothing is final, nothing is determined, just an opinion from someone who always seemed to believe Infect was OK and still believes it's away from banning. Just way more goldfishy, turn 4 rule violator if it's not for double disruption/removal and stronger than everything else. IMO.
I M O.
I'm not sure why people feel like their opinions are beyond criticism. I didn't intend to imply that you were stating it to be a consensus best deck, but rather I was trying to get you to back up your opinion with empirical data. I mean, I could have the opinion that elvish mystic is the best card in the format - but I wouldn't be immune to criticism because I put IMO in the post as a shield.
"IMO" is not a shield from criticism. If you have an opinion you can't support with empirical evidence, maybe it's not worth mentioning (as in, holds no value for anyone but yourself).
Be careful there. Remember that this is the golden age of the participation award.
First of all, I am free to say any of those things - you're not in some position to dictate anything to anyone. That being said, "you are not free to say" proceeds statements I did not make, so there's that.
Second, I think your "Please read better next time thanks." is a weak attempt at trolling at best, and a scathing indictment of your reading comprehension at worst.
I mean, I guess we can just ad-hominem this stuff about reading comprehension if you want. That doesn't seem particularly productive to me - but that's just an opinion.
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You can do whatever you want. Its a democracy last time i checked. There are moderators.
Now lets and about magic. Just asking to not alter my words in any way if you would be kind enough. Thanks.
I'd ask that you not imply that I am altering your words - if you'd be so kind. Thanks.
edit: Also, I'm pretty sure this place is not a democracy. I could be wrong about that - where does the voting (with respect to governance) happen?
Even if they did ban something, I strongly believe Infect is too strong now and clearly the best deck with this new configuration of theirs(4 become immenses main).
Their nut draws are totally un winnable from almost any deck and it's way too goldfishy and breaks turn 4 rule a lot. Of course it has its bad matchups in Jund, Jeskai but if they go nutdraw they can win or else an inkmoth nexus with a become immense can win out of nowhere.
If PT was still a thing, I would expect that card to be banned come next January. I do not now. I am still unsure about Infect. If it starts winning, it could be in a bad spot. But now, it's perfectly safe, and with no PT even safer.
Infect is too easy to disrupt. Breaking to turn 4 rule requires to being completely vulnerable to a single kill/counter spell. Mutagenic Growth leads to much more t2 kills than Become Immense, though the work particularity well together.
It's not always that easy to disrupt. I played last Thursday and my opponent was on the play (I'm on UB Fae). I keep a hand with a darkslick shores, 2 islands, bitterblossom, inquisition, disfigure, Clique. Snap Keep.
T1 Opponent - Pendelhaven - Glistener Elf - pass
T1 Me - Darkslick - Disfigure - Opponent responds with Mutagenic Growth
T2 Opponent - Forest - Groundswell - Might of Old Krosa - Mutagenic - Lethal
So, no, you can't always stop a turn 2 through disruption. With that said, we both had a laugh because such a hand through disruption is absurd.
That kind of reminds me of one of my matches at the WMCQ last weekend. I got paired against suicide zoo RD 1 which resulted in a T3 kill in game 1 and a T2 Kill in game 2.
Game 2, Opponent mulligans to 6:
T1 Opponent: Git Probe, Git Probe, Cycle Street Wraith, Fetch, Shock, Death's Shadow, Go.
T2 Me: Blood Moon, go (hoping to deny any further shenanigans by disrupting his mana)
T2 Opponent: Mutagenic, Mutagenic, Shock, Temur Battle Rage 20 damage.
Even if they did ban something, I strongly believe Infect is too strong now and clearly the best deck with this new configuration of theirs(4 become immenses main).
Their nut draws are totally un winnable from almost any deck and it's way too goldfishy and breaks turn 4 rule a lot. Of course it has its bad matchups in Jund, Jeskai but if they go nutdraw they can win or else an inkmoth nexus with a become immense can win out of nowhere.
If PT was still a thing, I would expect that card to be banned come next January. I do not now. I am still unsure about Infect. If it starts winning, it could be in a bad spot. But now, it's perfectly safe, and with no PT even safer.
Infect is too easy to disrupt. Breaking to turn 4 rule requires to being completely vulnerable to a single kill/counter spell. Mutagenic Growth leads to much more t2 kills than Become Immense, though the work particularity well together.
It's not always that easy to disrupt. I played last Thursday and my opponent was on the play (I'm on UB Fae). I keep a hand with a darkslick shores, 2 islands, bitterblossom, inquisition, disfigure, Clique. Snap Keep.
T1 Opponent - Pendelhaven - Glistener Elf - pass
T1 Me - Darkslick - Disfigure - Opponent responds with Mutagenic Growth
T2 Opponent - Forest - Groundswell - Might of Old Krosa - Mutagenic - Lethal
So, no, you can't always stop a turn 2 through disruption. With that said, we both had a laugh because such a hand through disruption is absurd.
That kind of reminds me of one of my matches at the WMCQ last weekend. I got paired against suicide zoo RD 1 which resulted in a T3 kill in game 1 and a T2 Kill in game 2.
Game 2, Opponent mulligans to 6:
T1 Opponent: Git Probe, Git Probe, Cycle Street Wraith, Fetch, Shock, Death's Shadow, Go.
T2 Me: Blood Moon, go (hoping to deny any further shenanigans by disrupting his mana)
T2 Opponent: Mutagenic, Mutagenic, Shock, Temur Battle Rage 20 damage.
GG
Sounds like the card we should be talking about is Mutagenic Growth.
/s (kind of)
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It might be the card to push Big Zoo back into tier 1-1.5 and potentially diversify zoo builds.
Heck, pros are doing it. Remember when Tom Ross said he thought Nahiri would be the next ban?
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Wasn't the SSong ban kind of sketchy when it happened? Storm wasn't exactly a tier 1 deck when it got the chop along with BBE. It was widely played online I believe but it didn't put up any meaningful paper results.
According to the Turn 4 philosophy currently in practice (one which decided the fate of Summer Bloom) wasn't that ban kind of premature? From today's perspective it would make about as much sense as banning Goroyo's Vengeance to uphold the Turn 4 rule within the Tier 10.
I'm not really pushing that hard for this, but I think this case does show how banning criteria changes over time, even if only gradually.
Many thanks to HotP Studios. Special thanks to DNC for this great sig.
It was the second most-played deck on MTGO and had percentages I would categorize as Tier 2 in paper. That's not categorically "Tier 1" but it's almost certainly "top-tier," which is what Wizards cares about in executing the T4 rule based on metagame shares. Storm's cost was a factor in its prevalence, but that doesn't change the prevalence numbers themselves and the ban was still consistent with other t4 bans.
Besides, why the heck would anyone want MORE linear decks in Modern? Wizards almost certainly doesn't and Song does exactly that.
That being said, I don't think that any bans/unbans are required at this time since the format is in a really nice place as it is. It's just a shame that Storm isn't actually a part of the big picture. Seething Song might be too steep of a price to achieve that but it sure would be nice to play with Storm competitively again. Others would disagree I'm sure but there is no accounting for taste...
Many thanks to HotP Studios. Special thanks to DNC for this great sig.
Edit: Just realized it was the 18th. Sorry, it's been a long day for me.
I feel badly. The reason why is that there are probably a minimum of 10 cards that Wizards will look over to unban before considering Seething Song. I think it should be in the top 5. Here's the reason. The mechanic, Storm, itself was deemed too powerful and if you look at old podcasts by Maro, he admits that it was a big mistake. Many people just hate these types of decks with a passion, especially in Modern. In Legacy, players are more lenient because they are doing horribly broken stuff themselves and the deck is much tougher to play. My first Vintage deck was TES (The Perfect Storm) over 10 years ago. I loved winning on turn 1 or 2 through disruption. Storm is just simply a deck that Wizards does not want to make more powerful in any form or way. I wouldn't be surprised if they specifically look at cards they print to make sure that they won't help Modern Storm. Even Storm in its current form can easily go off turn 3 or 4 if not disrupted.
But I will say that I would love it if it had a chance. When I saw Caleb Durward mention it in his "banned videos" on CFB over a year ago, it got me a bit hyped up, but I got shut down here. I realized that many Modern players don't want any more Combo decks in this format - at least good ones. Storm, Eggs, and Dredge are high on the list of decks that Wizards doesn't want to help, although I'm not sure why they printed Prized Amalgam and Insolent Neonate. That seemed kind of risky by their standards.
@GKourou - Bloodbraid Elf is a card that I hate with a passion, mostly because of its ability previously in Standard to wreck my DCI rating at the time. But I do agree with you (and others) that it's probably fine right now. Kalitas is better against Aggro and Bloodbraid Elf is better against Control and probably non-creature/graveyard based Combo. As for right now, no changes need to be made because we need a chance to marinate for a bit. When it gets stale, a BBE unban could help a little.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)I still have my doubts about bbe. A lot of the people saying a blue deck with bbe would not work in modern because of the nonbo with countermagic and that a u deck without countermagic will not be competitive do not see that such decks already exist and are quite good. Gdd blue moon is a very underrated deck that can grind anything out and is actually decent against aggro. A similar deck with green in exchange for moon to add bbe and other green good stuff might be a bit too powerful with the ability to recur ancestral visions and also cheat the cast sometimes.
I didn't call to ban EE since I have no idea if it's even good or not. I said CoCo and Chord, which was the better option as well since R&D doesn't like how tutors lead to the same gamestates. It fits the criteria from post 1 in this thread "Other cards have been banned because they make certain decks too consistent/reliable and thus stagnate the format." With EE it allows Melria based combo decks access to 8 tutors. Birthing Pod was banned for that exact reason in this exact deck. It goes with R&D current philosophy on tutors. I even said it was premature for a ban for that deck, but R&D has been proactive with the Modern banlist before with this deck. The format is pretty healthy ATM so anything would have to be proactive be definition.
BBE vs Kalitas was my line of thinking of why it was the most likely target for an unban. I don't know if the deck even wants it anymore. It would be nice since it was just printed in EMA too. Though if it is still "that" good we will all be playing jund all day again.
Do you think there is another more likely card to be banned? People thought Birthing Pod and Splinter Twin were safe too.
Those were bans during the PT era. For now, I'm going to keep going with the philosophy that Wizards will drastically slow down their ban schedule with no more PT to influence it. If we can get from April 2016 through April 2017 without any bans, I'll feel very good about that decision. But if Wizards just bans something else in between those dates, especially if it's not some new, horribly broken card, then I'll discount this "new philosophy" as being smoke and mirrors.
For now, I'm assuming Wizards is going to stick to their word and we won't see any bans in this stable, diverse metagame.
edit: This is even built upon the base assumption that there is a #1 at all, which does not seem consistent with our evidence.
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG
UWRjeskai nahiri UWR
UBRgrixis titi UBR
UBRgrixis delverUBR
UR ur kikimite UR
EDH
RUG Riku of Two Reflections RUG
UBR Marchesa, the Black Rose UBR
UBRGYidris, Maelstrom Wielder UBRG
UBRJeleva, Nephalia's ScourgeUBR
Infect is too easy to disrupt. Breaking to turn 4 rule requires to being completely vulnerable to a single kill/counter spell. Mutagenic Growth leads to much more t2 kills than Become Immense, though the work particularity well together.
Standard: lol no
Modern: BG/x, UR/x, Burn, Merfolk, Zoo, Storm
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Delver (BUG, RUG, Grixis), Landstill, Depths Combo, Merfolk
Vintage: Dark Times, BUG Fish, Merfolk
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion / Krenko, Mob Boss / Stonebrow, Krosan Hero
It's not always that easy to disrupt. I played last Thursday and my opponent was on the play (I'm on UB Fae). I keep a hand with a darkslick shores, 2 islands, bitterblossom, inquisition, disfigure, Clique. Snap Keep.
T1 Opponent - Pendelhaven - Glistener Elf - pass
T1 Me - Darkslick - Disfigure - Opponent responds with Mutagenic Growth
T2 Opponent - Forest - Groundswell - Might of Old Krosa - Mutagenic - Lethal
So, no, you can't always stop a turn 2 through disruption. With that said, we both had a laugh because such a hand through disruption is absurd.
Getting an Infect hand like that is literally the reason you play the deck, if it was so easy to disrupt as many people like to say, I don't think it would be as popular as it is now.
Yes indeed. Sometimes it just happens, you take your beats, and you move on. People trying to downplay this aspect of the deck are wrong, and people trying to act like it happens all of the time are wrong.
Gkourou - Fae IS love/life. AV is helping the deck a ton.
I'm not sure why people feel like their opinions are beyond criticism. I didn't intend to imply that you were stating it to be a consensus best deck, but rather I was trying to get you to back up your opinion with empirical data. I mean, I could have the opinion that elvish mystic is the best card in the format - but I wouldn't be immune to criticism because I put IMO in the post as a shield.
"IMO" is not a shield from criticism. If you have an opinion you can't support with empirical evidence, maybe it's not worth mentioning (as in, holds no value for anyone but yourself).
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG
Standard: lol no
Modern: BG/x, UR/x, Burn, Merfolk, Zoo, Storm
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Delver (BUG, RUG, Grixis), Landstill, Depths Combo, Merfolk
Vintage: Dark Times, BUG Fish, Merfolk
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion / Krenko, Mob Boss / Stonebrow, Krosan Hero
Second, I think your "Please read better next time thanks." is a weak attempt at trolling at best, and a scathing indictment of your reading comprehension at worst.
I mean, I guess we can just ad-hominem this stuff about reading comprehension if you want. That doesn't seem particularly productive to me - but that's just an opinion.
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG
I'd ask that you not imply that I am altering your words - if you'd be so kind. Thanks.
edit: Also, I'm pretty sure this place is not a democracy. I could be wrong about that - where does the voting (with respect to governance) happen?
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG
That kind of reminds me of one of my matches at the WMCQ last weekend. I got paired against suicide zoo RD 1 which resulted in a T3 kill in game 1 and a T2 Kill in game 2.
Game 2, Opponent mulligans to 6:
T1 Opponent: Git Probe, Git Probe, Cycle Street Wraith, Fetch, Shock, Death's Shadow, Go.
T2 Me: Blood Moon, go (hoping to deny any further shenanigans by disrupting his mana)
T2 Opponent: Mutagenic, Mutagenic, Shock, Temur Battle Rage 20 damage.
GG
Sounds like the card we should be talking about is Mutagenic Growth.
/s (kind of)