Can you tell me then how can Jund fight against Snapcaster Mage and AV which both provides phenomenal card advantage?
Well for starters, you can't flashback AV.
I didn't say that AV can be flashed back by Snapcaster Mage but that you essentially have card advantage with AV and Snapcaster Mage that can flash back spells and provide ca advantage or any other kind of advantage in game by that. Jund doesn't do good against these kind of decks. It can do fine against control but when control rebuilds its hand with AV it actually kills all work Jund did so far.
This game usually works in a way that control>midrange/combo>aggro>control. Rock Paper Scissors type stuff.
I am truly sorry for you that it's not a Jund>everything else type format, but that is better for the format as a whole. AV decks will not be super dominant, because they will be controlled by the shear number of aggro decks that can kill as early as turn 2. Aggro will not be dominant because Jund will do what Jund does. Jund will not be dominant due to a resurgence in A WHOLE ARCHETYPE.
So relax, and keep playing Jund. Chances are that this will bring forth the healthiest metagame Modern has seen in quite a while.
I don't get what all this fuss is about regarding jund/abzan. Traditional, GBx beats Ux. A 1 mana discard card removing the answers that Ux Decks had in hand, so that GBx could land a threat, was always a huge blow. Liliana usually was GG - it required the Ux player too many resources to deal with her. A Goyf after discard on turn 1 - removing the answer Ux player could have in hand to deal with it - was a nightmare.
And now you are crying because U/x decks may have a chance? It's not even sure that AV will really push Ux control decks to T1. And on top deck, AV is awful, it requires that I wait 4 turns to get some value, while in the table could be a huge goyf. Also, if it really gets to the point where U/x Control decks have a significant meta share (like 4-5%), there is always answers in sideboard (some already referred the Wasteland Strangler). So stop crying, and let's enjoy (what i hope it will be) a meta free of eldrazi dominance.
I dont know if thats true. It may punish Jund/Junk, but it may also boost up some strats that will help.
Tempo? Are the Delver guys happy?
nah, AV isnt going in my delver list. delver needs the scry to set up delver flips and needs to cast spells immediately for pyro tokens.
i also dont think this is punishing GBx, its really just making them do more than resolve a lilly to win the matchup. it certainly worsens the matchup, but not in a "punish jund" way, more like a "you dont get to win off one planeswalker" thing
***edit***
these thopter decks also seem like a bad matchup for delver, so not much love there either. kikimite has been godly with 4x AV though, i am very happy about that
I get the feeling you know nothing about the matchup
Jund Plays 13 to 14 creatures, has a bunch of dead removal game 1 against jeskai and uw, and absolutely cannot last the long game against those decks. If you think every game is going to be turn 1 discard into turn 2 goyf every game while the other player kept 5 lands, AV and a supreme verdict, you're high
That being said, I'm certain jund is dropping into tier 2, and that's ok, it's not as if jund players are entitled to be tier 1. I'm hoping that either Junk has to take over or someone brews a sultai GBX deck to compete
This also depends on how many AV decks are around and if it pressures players to be linear. If blue becomes very popular, I promise you that decks running 4x AV will guarantee that gbx had a 35-40 matchup in multiple matchups. The deck can't win against that. A Turn 4 av against Jund and junk isn't a bad play either
That being said, some opening hands could be significantly worse without serum visions, and they keep a shaky hand because of AV
AV shouldn't have been banned, as a jund player I'm not too happy about AV, but I definitely want to see how the meta is first, and if GBX can respond to it
I do think this unbanning could force blood braid elf to come off the list, because I do see gbx struggling bad if AV becomes a common thing
I don't think these unbannings were good, AV unban more specifically. It will help blue decks while push away even more other fair decks and it won't help against fast, linear decks at the same time. This isn't good for Modern, you solve one problem but make another even bigger one.
Yeah, there's absolutely no incentive to play a fair deck that doesn't play an Ancestral Vision now. Jund cannot keep up with that card advantage, even Reid Duke wants to shelf the deck and he's played so much Jund in Modern. I'd want to be playing something extremely fast and unfair or play an Ancestral Vision deck. I would not want to play anything in between, but hey maybe people won't have Ancestral Vision because it costs more than 200 dollars for a playset.
Agreed. The best thing now is to play an aggro deck or some kind of unfair combo deck. If you want to play fair slower deck (let it be control or midrange) you basically have to play AV if you want to play on the competitive level. It's quite said for those who like GBx decks and as a Jund player I really had high hopes for Jund in the new metagame but one single card make them fall into pieces. Also like you said when Jund master Reid Duke says he's not willing to play Jund then you know how bad it is for Jund (and actually GBx in general).
Can we let av be unbanned for 24 hours before we yet again call this the "death of jund"
As a Jund player, I agree. First of all, let`s wait and see. We still don`t know how good AV will turn out to be, and how widely it will be played. Secondly, GB/x decks are pretty good at adapting. We`re like some sludge monster that you can`t really kill, you can just weaken it and set it back. Third, let`s say that Jund is bumped to tier 1.5 for a while. So what? Does it need to have a constant tier 1 status? I`m going to keep trucking, how bad can it be really? The fact that it isn`t Reid Duke`s #1 choice out of all his possible options, doesn`t mean that it`s dead or unplayable. People are so quick to talk about any deck that aren`t one of the top five decks, as "unplayable" or "dead". This includes control decks before this B&R, they were "completely nonexistent" as tier two decks. At least now there is some hope that control players can stop their incessant whining and crying for a little while, that`s right I said it.
I don't get what all this fuss is about regarding jund/abzan. Traditional, GBx beats Ux. A 1 mana discard card removing the answers that Ux Decks had in hand, so that GBx could land a threat, was always a huge blow. Liliana usually was GG - it required the Ux player too many resources to deal with her. A Goyf after discard on turn 1 - removing the answer Ux player could have in hand to deal with it - was a nightmare.
And now you are crying because U/x decks may have a chance? It's not even sure that AV will really push Ux control decks to T1. And on top deck, AV is awful, it requires that I wait 4 turns to get some value, while in the table could be a huge goyf. Also, if it really gets to the point where U/x Control decks have a significant meta share (like 4-5%), there is always answers in sideboard (some already referred the Wasteland Strangler). So stop crying, and let's enjoy (what i hope it will be) a meta free of eldrazi dominance.
agree. besides, BGx has one of the best draw engines of all time in bob.
It's not just AV that will drop jund's tier. Eldrazi took the smallest nerf possible and will likely become a bit more midrange, pushing jund out of that space since it can't compete with card quality. If AV strategies take off that will just add to it, since discard strategies always suffer when good card draw is in s decent amount of the meta.
It's a combination of things, but AV certainly doesn't help jund.
And even though jund is one of my decks, I'm looking forward to playing uwr again.
And LOL to the person saying jund just wins off landing Lili. Any deck that wins by resolving a 4-of by definition can't be a 50-50 deck, which is what jund is. That viewpoint is just preposterous.
It's not just AV that will drop jund's tier. Eldrazi took the smallest nerf possible and will likely become a bit more midrange, pushing jund out of that space since it can't compete with card quality. If AV strategies take off that will just add to it, since discard strategies always suffer when good card draw is in s decent amount of the meta.
It's a combination of things, but AV certainly doesn't help jund.
And even though jund is one of my decks, I'm looking forward to playing uwr again.
And LOL to the person saying jund just wins off landing Lili. Any deck that wins by resolving a 4-of by definition can't be a 50-50 deck, which is what jund is. That viewpoint is just preposterous.
What I've said was that Jund vs Ux Control decks, landing Lili was usually a GG. I didn't refer the rest of the meta.
Ux don't have a clean and easy way to deal with a 4 health planeswalker (outside bolt range) while their hand keeps getting raped by discard spells/abilities.
I think we may have laughed a bit too soon at Forsythe's Lantern+SotM=KingObnoxious tweet.
Lantern Control is officially testing the crap out of SotM... and they seem to like it. Not sure it will ultimately stick, I'll be testing it too no doubt. I have many doubts in regards to both consistency and resilience as we are diluting the deck with something that might end up not being good enough. Foundry has been tested at various points of the deck's evolution but always fell short of good enough, SotM does absolutely nothing on its own in the deck. Guess we'll get a final verdict in about a week or two of testing.
PS: This unban was strange. Feels like they unbanned it just to prove Forsythe was right on that tweet. Like he got laughed and bullied so hard over that tweet he unbanned it just to prove a point. He even hints at people to try it in Lantern on the unban announcement.
I would think that now regular aggro decks are pretty much gone. I don't know if burn will be able to tempo out a control deck with a thopter combo waiting in the wings. I think were into the realm of combo/control. I definitely think its safe to bring bck aggro cards and cards that facilitate aggro/creature based combos. I think pod can safely come back and bloodbraid elf, maybe sfm. This is my read at first blush but we shall see
It's not just AV that will drop jund's tier. Eldrazi took the smallest nerf possible and will likely become a bit more midrange, pushing jund out of that space since it can't compete with card quality. If AV strategies take off that will just add to it, since discard strategies always suffer when good card draw is in s decent amount of the meta.
It's a combination of things, but AV certainly doesn't help jund.
And even though jund is one of my decks, I'm looking forward to playing uwr again.
And LOL to the person saying jund just wins off landing Lili. Any deck that wins by resolving a 4-of by definition can't be a 50-50 deck, which is what jund is. That viewpoint is just preposterous.
What I've said was that Jund vs Ux Control decks, landing Lili was usually a GG. I didn't refer the rest of the meta.
Ux don't have a clean and easy way to deal with a 4 health planeswalker (outside bolt range) while their hand keeps getting raped by discard spells/abilities.
Control decks have historically been weak or manageable threats in Modern. Giving them the finite Thopter Foundry/Sword of the Meek combo does give control decks viability, but it's not nearly as efficient or fast as Twin, don't get me wrong, this puts control decks on the map of relevancy. Ancestral Visions is not honestly overbearing for the format. It should have been unbanned a while ago. Treasure Cruise, Dig Through Time, Ponder and Preordain are all more powerful consistently, and yeah, you can cheat your way out of suspending it, but most players have to tailor their decks to do that and at that point, it's not worth it. The big thing for Modern is that Eldrazi are gone, and brews can flourish. I also think that "Thing in the Ice" and "Westvale Abbey" have a place in Modern too, and we'll see what that does for the meta. Thopter Foundry/Sword of the Meek, and then transforming Westvale Abbey seems really, really good.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
If at first you forget to maximize the swag, git gud, you filthy casul...
Ladies and Gentlemen, this was a huge win for the community. Wizards is now officially listening to us, in ways they never had in the past. The only notion missing from this announcement was the unbanning of Bloodbraid Elf, and in short time I expect her to rejoin the ranks of Modern, no matter how delusional Wizards is currently with their fear of the Cascade mechanic.
After Bloodbraid Elf gets the rightful unban, we can then see how aggressive we should be with the current banned list. We could revisit other fair cards, cantrips, artifact lands, and combo pieces. This announcement was a notion towards Legacy Lite, and not Super Standard. Modern can finally feel like a unique format, it now has breathing room.
Again, I like the unban on the cards but the speculation on them is insane. Golgari grave troll got unbanned and it has about as much use as Ancestral Vision in the format, yet it is at 3 usd while AV is being speculated at 40 usd a piece? Sometimes I think sellers are idiots in this game. Lets sell AV for crap tons because obviously every blue deck on earth is going to want to use a time delayed 3 card draw rare that can be sniped by eldrazi processors, may never go off because it was played way too late, or never goes off because aggro just took the wind out of said control strategy.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Again, I like the unban on the cards but the speculation on them is insane. Golgari grave troll got unbanned and it has about as much use as Ancestral Vision in the format, yet it is at 3 usd while AV is being speculated at 40 usd a piece? Sometimes I think sellers are idiots in this game. Lets sell AV for crap tons because obviously every blue deck on earth is going to want to use a time delayed 3 card draw rare that can be sniped by eldrazi processors, may never go off because it was played way too late, or never goes off because aggro just took the wind out of said control strategy.
Thank you! That's exactly how I feel about visions. It's good, but not $40 good... Maybe $15 at best. I'd rather just play Serum Visions.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
If at first you forget to maximize the swag, git gud, you filthy casul...
What control really needed was something like counterspell. Blue just has situational counterspells, or generic counter spells that are too slow for modern. AV will help but will be inconsistent. And while I think it actually could be too powerful considering all you need is 1 in opening hand to change the game, ultimately if the format gets faster and more combo related it's not going to be that great. So it depends what the format does
Just my opinion
Regarding B/G/x decks, I think variants could actually stay around. Think about a B/G (or B/U) midrange deck with temples, TKS, RS, and Matter Reshaper.. It is actually pretty good. Adds to the discard strategy, and sort of has its own CA. I'm having fun with U/B mid with just those eldrazi. Casting Liliana off of matter reshaper is nice, and otherwise you just get to draw a card. With confidants, serum visions, discard, acess to dispel and other counters.. it's pretty dope. It's got elements of control but also has actual threats early and room to main deck ghost quarters
I can see Scapeshift decks using T1 Eldrazi Temple. All it takes is an Amulet. Suddenly, any Vesuva is a threat to become a Temple. Same goes for Thespian's Stage
Next thing you know, you have a bounce coming down to play T2 Eyeless Watcher. Hello T3 Prime Time.
No? How about easy T2 Thought-Knot Seer.
Worse, you can have a T2 Eldrazi Displacer high on Training Grounds bouncing T3 Eyeless Watcher for infinite 1/1 tokens that are also mana. That can feed into things like Newlamog, or Emrakul.
Or Prophet of Distortion feeding off Training Grounds to draw a card for 1<>. Simply <> if you have 2 Training Grounds on table. With 8 (or 12) Temples, that's a hellacious amount of card draw. Going to draw into your answers in no time at all.
T1 Temple1 into Amulet
T2 Temple2 into TKS, or bounceland into Eldrazi Displacer and Training Grounds, or a 4/4 Endless One, or 2 Mimics,
T3 Eyeless Watcher w/ Displacer creating mana to drop Emrakul, Newlamog, Ugin or Karn. Or all 4. On the same turn.
I warned that it was Temple that was broken. Funny thing is, Eye of Ugin would have fed some of these strategies, but not all.
Again, I like the unban on the cards but the speculation on them is insane. Golgari grave troll got unbanned and it has about as much use as Ancestral Vision in the format, yet it is at 3 usd while AV is being speculated at 40 usd a piece? Sometimes I think sellers are idiots in this game. Lets sell AV for crap tons because obviously every blue deck on earth is going to want to use a time delayed 3 card draw rare that can be sniped by eldrazi processors, may never go off because it was played way too late, or never goes off because aggro just took the wind out of said control strategy.
Thank you! That's exactly how I feel about visions. It's good, but not $40 good... Maybe $15 at best. I'd rather just play Serum Visions.
If you think those two cards fulfill the same purpose then I suggest you spend some time testing.
by being bad against burn/affinity/infect/merfolk/elves mostly, it always was, except it was such a great fit into Twin it didn't matter
Remand also happened to be really good against all the rest of the decks, and even when it's "bad" against something like affinity etc., it's still never dead.
I don't see how a format that is likely to slow down a bit (thanks to Sword Combo), as well as host a triumphant return to blue-based decks being playable again (thanks to both Eye ban and AV unban) will somehow be hostile for Remand, one of the best blue spells in the format. Even if it's not a 4-of, it's going to be played. And especially if AV mirrors become a thing, Remand's stock will rise even higher. Not only because of Remand, but for all the same old reasons: Snapcaster, Cryptic, Planeswalkers, etc.
Point is, REmand just went up a peg again, not down.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
MODERN RGB Jund BGR WGB Junk/Abzan Company WGB
LEGACY RUGB Delver GURB
EDH UW Geist of Saint Traft Aggro-Control WU RUG Riku of Two Reflections Combo GUR BBB Skithiryx Control BB
Again, I like the unban on the cards but the speculation on them is insane. Golgari grave troll got unbanned and it has about as much use as Ancestral Vision in the format, yet it is at 3 usd while AV is being speculated at 40 usd a piece? Sometimes I think sellers are idiots in this game. Lets sell AV for crap tons because obviously every blue deck on earth is going to want to use a time delayed 3 card draw rare that can be sniped by eldrazi processors, may never go off because it was played way too late, or never goes off because aggro just took the wind out of said control strategy.
I understand people are frustrated with the price increase, but this is an absurd evaluation of AV. The card is significantly better and more impactful than GGT and is totally different in both role and availability than Serum Visions. Of course it will command a higher price tag than both. It will likely see as much play as Cryptic, if not more, so its price is going to be higher than Cryptic's off fewer reprints in lower-print run sets. Let's not succumb to hyperbolic misevaluation just because the pricing makes us unhappy.
remand was really good in the twin shell but it's sort of not so great in other builds... gaining tempo is only so great if you can capitalize on it and the card you get is only good if that's getting you closer to a win... in other words.. remand is only as good as the cards around it...
in post twin control builds... the getting to the win part is so much worse that you're better off trading with something like mana leak...
remand was really good in the twin shell but it's sort of not so great in other builds... gaining tempo is only so great if you can capitalize on it and the card you get is only good if that's getting you closer to a win... in other words.. remand is only as good as the cards around it...
in post twin control builds... the getting to the win part is so much worse that you're better off trading with something like mana leak...
2 Things:
1) While Twin was certainly the poster child for Remand before OGW came out, it was far from the only deck that played it to success. Any Snapcaster deck is likely interested in Remand, and the only reason decks like Grixis Delver didn't have too many copies was because they were actually trying to play attrition in the early game and didn't have enough mana or late game staying power to really enjoy a proper Remand into Cryptic loop.
2) AV is very similar to Twin in that it asks you to survive until turn 5ish to get a big payoff. Remand plays really well with that plan. It's not like you can't also have Mana Leaks and Crypics in that deck too. Cut the Twin package and you end up with a lot of room for other spells. The whole point of an AV shell is too delay your opponent until you draw 3 cards and bury them with more counters and removal.
You guys can go ahead and overlook Remand while you're testing your U/R/x decks, but I'll be happily jamming 4 of them alongside the 4 Ancestral Vision until new information comes to light.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
MODERN RGB Jund BGR WGB Junk/Abzan Company WGB
LEGACY RUGB Delver GURB
EDH UW Geist of Saint Traft Aggro-Control WU RUG Riku of Two Reflections Combo GUR BBB Skithiryx Control BB
I don't think these unbannings were good, AV unban more specifically. It will help blue decks while push away even more other fair decks and it won't help against fast, linear decks at the same time. This isn't good for Modern, you solve one problem but make another even bigger one.
Yeah, there's absolutely no incentive to play a fair deck that doesn't play an Ancestral Vision now. Jund cannot keep up with that card advantage, even Reid Duke wants to shelf the deck and he's played so much Jund in Modern. I'd want to be playing something extremely fast and unfair or play an Ancestral Vision deck. I would not want to play anything in between, but hey maybe people won't have Ancestral Vision because it costs more than 200 dollars for a playset.
Agreed. The best thing now is to play an aggro deck or some kind of unfair combo deck. If you want to play fair slower deck (let it be control or midrange) you basically have to play AV if you want to play on the competitive level. It's quite said for those who like GBx decks and as a Jund player I really had high hopes for Jund in the new metagame but one single card make them fall into pieces. Also like you said when Jund master Reid Duke says he's not willing to play Jund then you know how bad it is for Jund (and actually GBx in general).
Can we let av be unbanned for 24 hours before we yet again call this the "death of jund"
As a Jund player, I agree. First of all, let`s wait and see. We still don`t know how good AV will turn out to be, and how widely it will be played. Secondly, GB/x decks are pretty good at adapting. We`re like some sludge monster that you can`t really kill, you can just weaken it and set it back. Third, let`s say that Jund is bumped to tier 1.5 for a while. So what? Does it need to have a constant tier 1 status? I`m going to keep trucking, how bad can it be really? The fact that it isn`t Reid Duke`s #1 choice out of all his possible options, doesn`t mean that it`s dead or unplayable. People are so quick to talk about any deck that aren`t one of the top five decks, as "unplayable" or "dead". This includes control decks before this B&R, they were "completely nonexistent" as tier two decks. At least now there is some hope that control players can stop their incessant whining and crying for a little while, that`s right I said it.
For the price that some people paid on the deck, yeah it should be tier 1, otherwise the investment on the deck isn't even worth it even from a tournament spike where money is not an object to tournament success.
Again, I like the unban on the cards but the speculation on them is insane. Golgari grave troll got unbanned and it has about as much use as Ancestral Vision in the format, yet it is at 3 usd while AV is being speculated at 40 usd a piece? Sometimes I think sellers are idiots in this game. Lets sell AV for crap tons because obviously every blue deck on earth is going to want to use a time delayed 3 card draw rare that can be sniped by eldrazi processors, may never go off because it was played way too late, or never goes off because aggro just took the wind out of said control strategy.
Thank you! That's exactly how I feel about visions. It's good, but not $40 good... Maybe $15 at best. I'd rather just play Serum Visions.
If you think those two cards fulfill the same purpose then I suggest you spend some time testing.
I play tested on the off-chance it would get unbanned and I honestly find it less efficient.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
If at first you forget to maximize the swag, git gud, you filthy casul...
For the price that some people paid on the deck, yeah it should be tier 1, otherwise the investment on the deck isn't even worth it even from a tournament spike where money is not an object to tournament success.
This argument again! One of my personal banlist discussion favorites.
A deck's price should have little, if any, direct causation with its tier. It's fine if there's a correlation: good cards and good decks tend to be popular, increasing demand, and increasing price. That's fine. But the deck's cost should never be the reason the deck is good. Stated another way, the most expensive deck should not be the best deck just because it's the most expensive. That suggests a serious degree of metagame imbalance, both where a best deck is known, and where a best deck is the best because of its extra-game prices, not its metagame context. Wizards should never, ever make banning or unbanning decisions in Modern to try and ensure an expensive deck stays viable. That's the kind of artificial format influence which is a huge and unambiguous detriment to Modern's overall health.
Ladies and Gentlemen, this was a huge win for the community. Wizards is now officially listening to us, in ways they never had in the past. The only notion missing from this announcement was the unbanning of Bloodbraid Elf, and in short time I expect her to rejoin the ranks of Modern, no matter how delusional Wizards is currently with their fear of the Cascade mechanic.
After Bloodbraid Elf gets the rightful unban, we can then see how aggressive we should be with the current banned list. We could revisit other fair cards, cantrips, artifact lands, and combo pieces. This announcement was a notion towards Legacy Lite, and not Super Standard. Modern can finally feel like a unique format, it now has breathing room.
I'd like to believe that once BBE comes off the list (hopefully soon) that everyone will be satisfied for unbans for a long while to come and we should let the format stabilise after how chaotic things have been for the past 4 months.
However, ecosystems are unpredictable things. Who knows what wild changes might arrived from a combination of:
This game usually works in a way that control>midrange/combo>aggro>control. Rock Paper Scissors type stuff.
I am truly sorry for you that it's not a Jund>everything else type format, but that is better for the format as a whole. AV decks will not be super dominant, because they will be controlled by the shear number of aggro decks that can kill as early as turn 2. Aggro will not be dominant because Jund will do what Jund does. Jund will not be dominant due to a resurgence in A WHOLE ARCHETYPE.
So relax, and keep playing Jund. Chances are that this will bring forth the healthiest metagame Modern has seen in quite a while.
RGW Naya Company
RWB Mardu Control
And now you are crying because U/x decks may have a chance? It's not even sure that AV will really push Ux control decks to T1. And on top deck, AV is awful, it requires that I wait 4 turns to get some value, while in the table could be a huge goyf. Also, if it really gets to the point where U/x Control decks have a significant meta share (like 4-5%), there is always answers in sideboard (some already referred the Wasteland Strangler). So stop crying, and let's enjoy (what i hope it will be) a meta free of eldrazi dominance.
UR TwinLegacy
UWR MiraclesI get the feeling you know nothing about the matchup
Jund Plays 13 to 14 creatures, has a bunch of dead removal game 1 against jeskai and uw, and absolutely cannot last the long game against those decks. If you think every game is going to be turn 1 discard into turn 2 goyf every game while the other player kept 5 lands, AV and a supreme verdict, you're high
That being said, I'm certain jund is dropping into tier 2, and that's ok, it's not as if jund players are entitled to be tier 1. I'm hoping that either Junk has to take over or someone brews a sultai GBX deck to compete
This also depends on how many AV decks are around and if it pressures players to be linear. If blue becomes very popular, I promise you that decks running 4x AV will guarantee that gbx had a 35-40 matchup in multiple matchups. The deck can't win against that. A Turn 4 av against Jund and junk isn't a bad play either
That being said, some opening hands could be significantly worse without serum visions, and they keep a shaky hand because of AV
AV shouldn't have been banned, as a jund player I'm not too happy about AV, but I definitely want to see how the meta is first, and if GBX can respond to it
I do think this unbanning could force blood braid elf to come off the list, because I do see gbx struggling bad if AV becomes a common thing
Stay reasonable, be mindful of your expectations and don't feed the trolls.
Doomsdayin'
agree. besides, BGx has one of the best draw engines of all time in bob.
UBRGrixis ControlUBR | URPhoenixUR | UWMiraclesUW |GBRJundGBR | UBFaeriesUB | UBWAd NauseumUBW |GBRWBlueless ShadowGBRW |
MTGA
UBRGrixis ControlUBR | UTempoU
It's a combination of things, but AV certainly doesn't help jund.
And even though jund is one of my decks, I'm looking forward to playing uwr again.
And LOL to the person saying jund just wins off landing Lili. Any deck that wins by resolving a 4-of by definition can't be a 50-50 deck, which is what jund is. That viewpoint is just preposterous.
Standard: lol no
Modern: BG/x, UR/x, Burn, Merfolk, Zoo, Storm
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Delver (BUG, RUG, Grixis), Landstill, Depths Combo, Merfolk
Vintage: Dark Times, BUG Fish, Merfolk
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion / Krenko, Mob Boss / Stonebrow, Krosan Hero
What I've said was that Jund vs Ux Control decks, landing Lili was usually a GG. I didn't refer the rest of the meta.
Ux don't have a clean and easy way to deal with a 4 health planeswalker (outside bolt range) while their hand keeps getting raped by discard spells/abilities.
UR TwinLegacy
UWR MiraclesLantern Control is officially testing the crap out of SotM... and they seem to like it. Not sure it will ultimately stick, I'll be testing it too no doubt. I have many doubts in regards to both consistency and resilience as we are diluting the deck with something that might end up not being good enough. Foundry has been tested at various points of the deck's evolution but always fell short of good enough, SotM does absolutely nothing on its own in the deck. Guess we'll get a final verdict in about a week or two of testing.
PS: This unban was strange. Feels like they unbanned it just to prove Forsythe was right on that tweet. Like he got laughed and bullied so hard over that tweet he unbanned it just to prove a point. He even hints at people to try it in Lantern on the unban announcement.
"When you get your opponent down to 0 sanity, you win the game!"
Standard: lol no
Modern: BG/x, UR/x, Burn, Merfolk, Zoo, Storm
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Delver (BUG, RUG, Grixis), Landstill, Depths Combo, Merfolk
Vintage: Dark Times, BUG Fish, Merfolk
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion / Krenko, Mob Boss / Stonebrow, Krosan Hero
After Bloodbraid Elf gets the rightful unban, we can then see how aggressive we should be with the current banned list. We could revisit other fair cards, cantrips, artifact lands, and combo pieces. This announcement was a notion towards Legacy Lite, and not Super Standard. Modern can finally feel like a unique format, it now has breathing room.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Thank you! That's exactly how I feel about visions. It's good, but not $40 good... Maybe $15 at best. I'd rather just play Serum Visions.
Just my opinion
Regarding B/G/x decks, I think variants could actually stay around. Think about a B/G (or B/U) midrange deck with temples, TKS, RS, and Matter Reshaper.. It is actually pretty good. Adds to the discard strategy, and sort of has its own CA. I'm having fun with U/B mid with just those eldrazi. Casting Liliana off of matter reshaper is nice, and otherwise you just get to draw a card. With confidants, serum visions, discard, acess to dispel and other counters.. it's pretty dope. It's got elements of control but also has actual threats early and room to main deck ghost quarters
Food for thought
Next thing you know, you have a bounce coming down to play T2 Eyeless Watcher. Hello T3 Prime Time.
No? How about easy T2 Thought-Knot Seer.
Worse, you can have a T2 Eldrazi Displacer high on Training Grounds bouncing T3 Eyeless Watcher for infinite 1/1 tokens that are also mana. That can feed into things like Newlamog, or Emrakul.
Or Prophet of Distortion feeding off Training Grounds to draw a card for 1<>. Simply <> if you have 2 Training Grounds on table. With 8 (or 12) Temples, that's a hellacious amount of card draw. Going to draw into your answers in no time at all.
T1 Temple1 into Amulet
T2 Temple2 into TKS, or bounceland into Eldrazi Displacer and Training Grounds, or a 4/4 Endless One, or 2 Mimics,
T3 Eyeless Watcher w/ Displacer creating mana to drop Emrakul, Newlamog, Ugin or Karn. Or all 4. On the same turn.
I warned that it was Temple that was broken. Funny thing is, Eye of Ugin would have fed some of these strategies, but not all.
If you think those two cards fulfill the same purpose then I suggest you spend some time testing.
Remand also happened to be really good against all the rest of the decks, and even when it's "bad" against something like affinity etc., it's still never dead.
I don't see how a format that is likely to slow down a bit (thanks to Sword Combo), as well as host a triumphant return to blue-based decks being playable again (thanks to both Eye ban and AV unban) will somehow be hostile for Remand, one of the best blue spells in the format. Even if it's not a 4-of, it's going to be played. And especially if AV mirrors become a thing, Remand's stock will rise even higher. Not only because of Remand, but for all the same old reasons: Snapcaster, Cryptic, Planeswalkers, etc.
Point is, REmand just went up a peg again, not down.
RGB Jund BGR
WGB Junk/Abzan Company WGB
LEGACY
RUGB Delver GURB
EDH
UW Geist of Saint Traft Aggro-Control WU
RUG Riku of Two Reflections Combo GUR
BBB Skithiryx Control BB
I understand people are frustrated with the price increase, but this is an absurd evaluation of AV. The card is significantly better and more impactful than GGT and is totally different in both role and availability than Serum Visions. Of course it will command a higher price tag than both. It will likely see as much play as Cryptic, if not more, so its price is going to be higher than Cryptic's off fewer reprints in lower-print run sets. Let's not succumb to hyperbolic misevaluation just because the pricing makes us unhappy.
in post twin control builds... the getting to the win part is so much worse that you're better off trading with something like mana leak...
2 Things:
1) While Twin was certainly the poster child for Remand before OGW came out, it was far from the only deck that played it to success. Any Snapcaster deck is likely interested in Remand, and the only reason decks like Grixis Delver didn't have too many copies was because they were actually trying to play attrition in the early game and didn't have enough mana or late game staying power to really enjoy a proper Remand into Cryptic loop.
2) AV is very similar to Twin in that it asks you to survive until turn 5ish to get a big payoff. Remand plays really well with that plan. It's not like you can't also have Mana Leaks and Crypics in that deck too. Cut the Twin package and you end up with a lot of room for other spells. The whole point of an AV shell is too delay your opponent until you draw 3 cards and bury them with more counters and removal.
You guys can go ahead and overlook Remand while you're testing your U/R/x decks, but I'll be happily jamming 4 of them alongside the 4 Ancestral Vision until new information comes to light.
RGB Jund BGR
WGB Junk/Abzan Company WGB
LEGACY
RUGB Delver GURB
EDH
UW Geist of Saint Traft Aggro-Control WU
RUG Riku of Two Reflections Combo GUR
BBB Skithiryx Control BB
For the price that some people paid on the deck, yeah it should be tier 1, otherwise the investment on the deck isn't even worth it even from a tournament spike where money is not an object to tournament success.
I play tested on the off-chance it would get unbanned and I honestly find it less efficient.
This argument again! One of my personal banlist discussion favorites.
A deck's price should have little, if any, direct causation with its tier. It's fine if there's a correlation: good cards and good decks tend to be popular, increasing demand, and increasing price. That's fine. But the deck's cost should never be the reason the deck is good. Stated another way, the most expensive deck should not be the best deck just because it's the most expensive. That suggests a serious degree of metagame imbalance, both where a best deck is known, and where a best deck is the best because of its extra-game prices, not its metagame context. Wizards should never, ever make banning or unbanning decisions in Modern to try and ensure an expensive deck stays viable. That's the kind of artificial format influence which is a huge and unambiguous detriment to Modern's overall health.
Stoneforge Mystic I would like to see unbanned as well, but I'd sooner like to see Bloodbraid Elf if I had to choose