It's a premium article but here is the relevant part, a quote from tom ross:
"I predict that Nahiri, the Harbinger will be the next card banned from Modern. It'll be about six months from now, but it will happen. It's customary to ban the enablers of combo decks: Summer Bloom but not Primeval Titan, for example. In this case, it's Nahiri, he Harbinger and not Emrakul, the Aeons Torn."
Man, doesn't take long for the train to get rolling, does it?
and people pay to read that?
I'm one of those who saw the power of Nahiri right from the spoiler time, and got them at 6tix at release, but after extensive testing she's far from ban material.
Also, I don't like her in jeskai. There, you have to play her when you're winning. If you play her when equal, she's gonna be a 2for1 during 2 turns at most. Then, if you are behind she's just a 1for1 if you're lucky.
I prefer her in mardu where I can protect her with tokens both when I'm ahead AND in equal board position with my opponent.
In my experience, this is untrue. Unless you are dying next turn, they HAVE to do something to nahiri or get emrakuled, and even then the -2 can get you out of some bad spots. It presents such a clock that it can't really be ignored; most of the time it ends up being a 2 or 3 for 1 for me (or i just win off emrakul) just because people have to use so many resources to remove it. Since when is a 2 for 1 bad for jeskai? This will obviously change when people start packing more dreadbore or maelstrom pulse.
And that really is where we find ourselves in modern. Several weeks ago everyone was all "oh no coco is too good" and then people sided for it more and it went away. now everyone is like "nahiri is too good" (not everyone obviously, I'm using hyperbole) but people will start preparing for it and it will go away, while they dilute their decks and a different strategy will enter the gap. it finally is beginning to feel like an eternal format, in the sense that there are 15ish decks in tier 1-2, and metagaming matters alot. For the time being I don't think anything needs banned or unbanned, even if I personally would like blue to be better in general.
It's a premium article but here is the relevant part, a quote from tom ross:
"I predict that Nahiri, the Harbinger will be the next card banned from Modern. It'll be about six months from now, but it will happen. It's customary to ban the enablers of combo decks: Summer Bloom but not Primeval Titan, for example. In this case, it's Nahiri, he Harbinger and not Emrakul, the Aeons Torn."
Man, doesn't take long for the train to get rolling, does it?
and people pay to read that?
I'm one of those who saw the power of Nahiri right from the spoiler time, and got them at 6tix at release, but after extensive testing she's far from ban material.
Also, I don't like her in jeskai. There, you have to play her when you're winning. If you play her when equal, she's gonna be a 2for1 during 2 turns at most. Then, if you are behind she's just a 1for1 if you're lucky.
I prefer her in mardu where I can protect her with tokens both when I'm ahead AND in equal board position with my opponent.
In my experience, this is untrue. Unless you are dying next turn, they HAVE to do something to nahiri or get emrakuled, and even then the -2 can get you out of some bad spots. It presents such a clock that it can't really be ignored; most of the time it ends up being a 2 or 3 for 1 for me (or i just win off emrakul) just because people have to use so many resources to remove it. Since when is a 2 for 1 bad for jeskai? This will obviously change when people start packing more dreadbore or maelstrom pulse.
And that really is where we find ourselves in modern. Several weeks ago everyone was all "oh no coco is too good" and then people sided for it more and it went away. now everyone is like "nahiri is too good" (not everyone obviously, I'm using hyperbole) but people will start preparing for it and it will go away, while they dilute their decks and a different strategy will enter the gap. it finally is beginning to feel like an eternal format, in the sense that there are 15ish decks in tier 1-2, and metagaming matters alot. For the time being I don't think anything needs banned or unbanned, even if I personally would like blue to be better in general.
As a ex-Grixis control player, Nahiri isn't really scary. Nahiri's -2 ability is super easy to play around.
I'm personally moving to UWR Jeskai with Nahiri... but it isn't because of Nahiri
I think that is a bit generous. LotV is played for her first two abilities. You cannot tell me that if Nahiri's ult read something other than "you win the game" she would even have a place in the control deck. No one is playing Nahiri for her first two abilities. They have incidental utility, sure, but they are not worth a four drop in Modern by themselves. Further, LotV has a symbiotic synergistic relationship with the most power vanilla beat stick in Modern in Tarmogoyf, and arguably the second or third best beatstick in Scavenging Ooze. Nahiri has the ability to create a nasty nombo that you gotta watch out for. It certainly can have a use, discarding Emrakul to get it back in your library, but completely neutering your best creature (SCM) for the next couple turns could become very problematic. And LotV comes down a turn sooner.
Now, all that being said, I expect to see a possible resurgence of the use of pithing needle in the main deck because of Nahiri. As good as LotV is, she is merely an awesome support card that notably does not say "play me, protect me and in three turns you win the game." Unfortunately, all hate directed at Nahiri will also hit every planeswalker. LotV was great because while annoying, she didn't warrant special attention because her loyalty was lower and manageable with creatures. Nahiri is out of creature's reach usually.
So, overall, great work WotC, you just made a planeswalker that could end the use of almost all other planeswalkers.
Now I'll admit, that scenario is several steps away, but definitely feels like a possibility. I am honestly surprised though that WotC was dumb enough to put that ability on a planeswalker and make it really achievable. Once again demonstrating that WotC does not test for modern/legacy at all.
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Modern GB Rock U Flooding Merfolk RUG Delver Midrange WU Monks UW Tempo Geist GW Bogle GW Liege UR Tron B Vampires
Affinity Legacy
Fish
Goblins
Burn
Reanimator
Dredge
Affinity EDH W Akroma GBW Ghave BRU Thrax GR Ruric I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
I think that is a bit generous. LotV is played for her first two abilities. You cannot tell me that if Nahiri's ult read something other than "you win the game" she would even have a place in the control deck. No one is playing Nahiri for her first two abilities. They have incidental utility, sure, but they are not worth a four drop in Modern by themselves. Further, LotV has a symbiotic synergistic relationship with the most power vanilla beat stick in Modern in Tarmogoyf, and arguably the second or third best beatstick in Scavenging Ooze. Nahiri has the ability to create a nasty nombo that you gotta watch out for. It certainly can have a use, discarding Emrakul to get it back in your library, but completely neutering your best creature (SCM) for the next couple turns could become very problematic. And LotV comes down a turn sooner.
Now, all that being said, I expect to see a possible resurgence of the use of pithing needle in the main deck because of Nahiri. As good as LotV is, she is merely an awesome support card that notably does not say "play me, protect me and in three turns you win the game." Unfortunately, all hate directed at Nahiri will also hit every planeswalker. LotV was great because while annoying, she didn't warrant special attention because her loyalty was lower and manageable with creatures. Nahiri is out of creature's reach usually.
So, overall, great work WotC, you just made a planeswalker that could end the use of almost all other planeswalkers.
Now I'll admit, that scenario is several steps away, but definitely feels like a possibility. I am honestly surprised though that WotC was dumb enough to put that ability on a planeswalker and make it really achievable. Once again demonstrating that WotC does not test for modern/legacy at all.
Seriously, shut up. This is one of the whiniest most over the top reasons to get mad that I've read on here in a while.
Let the deck/planeswalker actually break something before you go whining about it.
All I hear is complaining about how the power level is so low and that there are no new toys for eternal players to play with. EVERY time we get one there is some contingent of players that comes out of the woodwork to go on and on about how everything is ruined because WOTC is stupid or doesn't test or *(insert ridiculously convoluted argument here)*.
Unbelievable.
Also, you're DRAMATICALLY underselling how powerful and game changing LOTV is. For real.
So, overall, great work WotC, you just made a planeswalker that could end the use of almost all other planeswalkers.
Before Nahiri, Lily, Karn, and Ugin were the only top-tier planeswalker in Modern. Random sideboard copies of Jace in Twin don't count, and the Tron walkers were confined to a single deck. Now at least other colors can play a competitive planeswalker, and yet here we are in the thread approaching (or exceeding) the usual level of alarmism and hyperbole.
It's upsetting that whenever Modern gets new cards, large community subsections react negatively. Or whenever there's metagame movement of any kind, those same subsections respond with ban talk. This is a powerful format with powerful cards. If we never ever want Tier 1 decks to change, we can just ban everything new that comes along. Or we can accept some degree of flux as powerful new entrants appear in Modern.
The bar for a walker in modern is very high -- the bolt and creature centric nature of the format makes a specific set of demands on a playable walker. It's got to either come down on turn 3 and threaten to win the game (Lily) or come down on turn 4-5 and be good enough to survive to untap with with little support.
One of the reasons Nahiri is so powerful in modern (and probably better than Jace) is that she has two different very powerful ways to survive to untap -- she kills a big tapped threat or she plusses and dodges up to 5 power on board.
JTMS is much stronger once you untap than Nahiri, but Nahiri is far more likely to survive to untap.
A couple walkers that have seen quite a bit of play in Modern that are left off of the list are Gideon Jura and Elspeth, Sun's Champion, both of whom have stellar defense.
In short, defense is more important for modern walkers than in legacy, and Nahiri's main power is her sick defense.
What I meant by that statement is that Nahiri being a thing could be just enough reason for people to start seriously considering main deck hate for planeswalkers. While trons walkers are more powerful, the tron is what people prepared for and played against. It's easier and more universal to hit an opponent's mana base then add specific cards for their walkers, especially considering tron had a multitude of threats beyond Ugin and Karn.
Will people be so quick to use planeswalkers with hate for them becoming a real thing? Now there will be three tier one or nearly tier one decks that rely heavily on walker interaction. Does that mean main deck hate for them should become a thing? I guess that's my question.
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Goblins
Burn
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Dredge
Affinity EDH W Akroma GBW Ghave BRU Thrax GR Ruric I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
Reread the post dude. I inferred that LotV is the better planeswalker. My post was in response to MarcWizard saying they were on the same level. Gah, I gotta get better at quoting. Sorry.
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Modern GB Rock U Flooding Merfolk RUG Delver Midrange WU Monks UW Tempo Geist GW Bogle GW Liege UR Tron B Vampires
Affinity Legacy
Fish
Goblins
Burn
Reanimator
Dredge
Affinity EDH W Akroma GBW Ghave BRU Thrax GR Ruric I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
Will people be so quick to use planeswalkers with hate for them becoming a real thing? Now there will be three tier one or nearly tier one decks that rely heavily on walker interaction. Does that mean main deck hate for them should become a thing? I guess that's my question.
Yes. Let the metagame adapt and evolve like it should be doing in a non-rotating format. There's this strange idea in Modern that if players have to make any adjustments to their core 60 Tier 1 cards then the format has been warped. Evolutions are fine and inevitable in non-rotating formats, and Jund players having to increase the Pulse count and add Dreadbore is part of that.
Isn't pithing needle a better option, at least when you're not playing decks with access to abrupt decay? It can hit so much more than walkers though it is weak to artifact removal but is being main decked for that outside of abrupt decay and maybe a pride mage or the sliver in coco decks...
And for the record, let me reiterate that I DO NOT think Nahiri is broken or needing a ban. I do however think that her presence as a primary win condition, along with the tron guys (Karn and Ugin) may put planeswalker hate onto the map as main deck material. To me that is a significant shift in the meta at large. And I'm not saying that shouldn't happen, rather that it is remarkable that it very well could.
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Modern GB Rock U Flooding Merfolk RUG Delver Midrange WU Monks UW Tempo Geist GW Bogle GW Liege UR Tron B Vampires
Affinity Legacy
Fish
Goblins
Burn
Reanimator
Dredge
Affinity EDH W Akroma GBW Ghave BRU Thrax GR Ruric I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
Isn't pithing needle a better option, at least when you're not playing decks with access to abrupt decay? It can hit so much more than walkers though it is weak to artifact removal but is being main decked for that outside of abrupt decay and maybe a pride mage or the sliver in coco decks...
Needle is good but creature-kill is always critical in Modern. If you can double your Nahiri answer as a removal spell for Goyfs, Tasigurs, Nacatls, Guides, etc., then that's a big plus. I would love to see more Needle but I see where it loses out to hard removal like Pulse and DB.
And for the record, let me reiterate that I DO NOT think Nahiri is broken or needing a ban. I do however think that her presence as a primary win condition, along with the tron guys (Karn and Ugin) may put planeswalker hate onto the map as main deck material. To me that is a significant shift in the meta at large. And I'm not saying that shouldn't happen, rather that it is remarkable that it very well could.
When people observe and remark on major metagame shifts in the ban thread in the context of a Nahiri ban discussion, it doesn't come off as just a casual note about the metagame. If you want to discuss those kinds of shifts, the Nahiri thread or the Metagame thread would be less loaded venues.
DID WIZARDS HAVE THEIR MINDS SET ON MODERN WHEN THEY WERE DESIGNING NAHIRI OR JUST THE NEW EMRRAKUL ON ELDTRITCH MOON?
Highly doubtful. They design cards specifically for Draft and Standard. If something is good in Modern, it's usually an accident, oversight, or lucky. It's unlikely that Modern influenced the design whatsoever. Remember that Treasure Cruise and Dig Through Time were perfectly fine throughout two years of Standard but banned in every eternal format.
DID WIZARDS HAVE THEIR MINDS SET ON MODERN WHEN THEY WERE DESIGNING NAHIRI OR JUST THE NEW EMRRAKUL ON ELDTRITCH MOON?
Highly doubtful. They design cards specifically for Draft and Standard. If something is good in Modern, it's usually an accident, oversight, or lucky. It's unlikely that Modern influenced the design whatsoever. Remember that Treasure Cruise and Dig Through Time were perfectly fine throughout two years of Standard but banned in every eternal format.
Abrupt Decay and several artifact hate cards were made primarily for modern.
Maybe kolaghans command too but I am uncertain on this one.
Abrupt Decay was made specifically to counter Counterbalance, which is a Legacy staple, not a Modern one.
Isn't pithing needle a better option, at least when you're not playing decks with access to abrupt decay? It can hit so much more than walkers though it is weak to artifact removal but is being main decked for that outside of abrupt decay and maybe a pride mage or the sliver in coco decks...
If we started to see Pithing Needle main decked then I would tend to agree that the format is being warped. Hopefully we're FAR from that, though, because Needle is a horrible choice for a main deck card. Most decks want their 60 to execute their deck's game plan and rely on SB cards only to react to how the opposing deck reacts to them or to fight them in a specific way. A deck like CoCo can main deck Pridemage because it's already just a toolbox deck, so another toolbox card that has legs is fine. A Uxx Gifts deck could equally adapt with some 1-ofs, because that's basically how the deck functions. But most other decks should leave things like Needle to the SB.
DID WIZARDS HAVE THEIR MINDS SET ON MODERN WHEN THEY WERE DESIGNING NAHIRI OR JUST THE NEW EMRRAKUL ON ELDTRITCH MOON?
Highly doubtful. They design cards specifically for Draft and Standard. If something is good in Modern, it's usually an accident, oversight, or lucky. It's unlikely that Modern influenced the design whatsoever. Remember that Treasure Cruise and Dig Through Time were perfectly fine throughout two years of Standard but banned in every eternal format.
Abrupt Decay and several artifact hate cards were made primarily for modern.
Maybe kolaghans command too but I am uncertain on this one.
We don't know that, unless there's some article I don't know about acknowledging it. Decay works fantastically in eternal formats, but design and development for new sets is always driven by Standard and Limited. I'm sure someone somewhere along the design tree must have thought "hey, this might be good in Modern/Legacy," but that probably would have been long after initial design phases.
DID WIZARDS HAVE THEIR MINDS SET ON MODERN WHEN THEY WERE DESIGNING NAHIRI OR JUST THE NEW EMRRAKUL ON ELDTRITCH MOON?
Highly doubtful. They design cards specifically for Draft and Standard. If something is good in Modern, it's usually an accident, oversight, or lucky. It's unlikely that Modern influenced the design whatsoever. Remember that Treasure Cruise and Dig Through Time were perfectly fine throughout two years of Standard but banned in every eternal format.
Abrupt Decay and several artifact hate cards were made primarily for modern.
Maybe kolaghans command too but I am uncertain on this one.
We don't know that, unless there's some article I don't know about acknowledging it. Decay works fantastically in eternal formats, but design and development for new sets is always driven by Standard and Limited. I'm sure someone somewhere along the design tree must have thought "hey, this might be good in Modern/Legacy," but that probably would have been long after initial design phases.
We do know that.
This whole "they don't design for other formats" thing is a myth. They do. Abrupt Decay is a perfect example, as design put it in specifically to fight Counterbalance in Legacy.
What they don't do is TEST their Standard cards for older formats. There's a big difference between design and test.
DID WIZARDS HAVE THEIR MINDS SET ON MODERN WHEN THEY WERE DESIGNING NAHIRI OR JUST THE NEW EMRRAKUL ON ELDTRITCH MOON?
Highly doubtful. They design cards specifically for Draft and Standard. If something is good in Modern, it's usually an accident, oversight, or lucky. It's unlikely that Modern influenced the design whatsoever. Remember that Treasure Cruise and Dig Through Time were perfectly fine throughout two years of Standard but banned in every eternal format.
Abrupt Decay and several artifact hate cards were made primarily for modern.
Maybe kolaghans command too but I am uncertain on this one.
We don't know that, unless there's some article I don't know about acknowledging it. Decay works fantastically in eternal formats, but design and development for new sets is always driven by Standard and Limited. I'm sure someone somewhere along the design tree must have thought "hey, this might be good in Modern/Legacy," but that probably would have been long after initial design phases.
We do know that.
This whole "they don't design for other formats" thing is a myth. They do. Abrupt Decay is a perfect example, as design put it in specifically to fight Counterbalance in Legacy.
What they don't do is TEST their Standard cards for older formats. There's a big difference between design and test.
I guess if correlation = causality, then sure. We're making assumptions because it makes perfect sense, not because anyone in the company actually said so.
Highly doubtful. They design cards specifically for Draft and Standard. If something is good in Modern, it's usually an accident, oversight, or lucky. It's unlikely that Modern influenced the design whatsoever. Remember that Treasure Cruise and Dig Through Time were perfectly fine throughout two years of Standard but banned in every eternal format.
Abrupt Decay and several artifact hate cards were made primarily for modern.
Maybe kolaghans command too but I am uncertain on this one.
We don't know that, unless there's some article I don't know about acknowledging it. Decay works fantastically in eternal formats, but design and development for new sets is always driven by Standard and Limited. I'm sure someone somewhere along the design tree must have thought "hey, this might be good in Modern/Legacy," but that probably would have been long after initial design phases.
We do know that.
This whole "they don't design for other formats" thing is a myth. They do. Abrupt Decay is a perfect example, as design put it in specifically to fight Counterbalance in Legacy.
What they don't do is TEST their Standard cards for older formats. There's a big difference between design and test.
I guess if correlation = causality, then sure. We're making assumptions because it makes perfect sense, not because anyone in the company actually said so.
You calling my bluff?
Eric Lauer said:
"Modern is a format created by players, not developers. So we tend to be hands off, although we try to avoid adding turn-three kills. With Legacy, we sometimes design "answer cards" such as Abrupt Decay being an answer to Counterbalance. When appropriate, we might do that with Modern. But we haven't had to yet."
Abrupt Decay and several artifact hate cards were made primarily for modern.
Maybe kolaghans command too but I am uncertain on this one.
We don't know that, unless there's some article I don't know about acknowledging it. Decay works fantastically in eternal formats, but design and development for new sets is always driven by Standard and Limited. I'm sure someone somewhere along the design tree must have thought "hey, this might be good in Modern/Legacy," but that probably would have been long after initial design phases.
We do know that.
This whole "they don't design for other formats" thing is a myth. They do. Abrupt Decay is a perfect example, as design put it in specifically to fight Counterbalance in Legacy.
What they don't do is TEST their Standard cards for older formats. There's a big difference between design and test.
I guess if correlation = causality, then sure. We're making assumptions because it makes perfect sense, not because anyone in the company actually said so.
You calling my bluff?
Eric Lauer said:
"Modern is a format created by players, not developers. So we tend to be hands off, although we try to avoid adding turn-three kills. With Legacy, we sometimes design "answer cards" such as Abrupt Decay being an answer to Counterbalance. When appropriate, we might do that with Modern. But we haven't had to yet."
Tom LaPille also said that Mental Misstep was printed with Brainstorm in mind in Legacy, but they overshot it.
I honestly had no idea. I searched for similar articles and found nothing and came back to the game well after that was published. All I was going off of were the statements and articles of the past few years, none of which specifically name any cards being designed for modern. I assumed it may be a thing, but with how much they drive in their narrative (MaRo specifically) that sets are designed with Standard and Limited in mind, it seems most Modern playable cards become that way due to accident rather than specific planning. Interesting read for sure. Definitely gives very different vibe than the past two years of statements.
Understandable, but the "vibe" you're referring to is a little different. The majority of the recent statements have focused on whether WOTC "tests" for older formats in their Standard set development. While that can be confused with whether or not they "design" certain cards for other formats, the two things are very different.
I honestly had no idea. I searched for similar articles and found nothing and came back to the game well after that was published. All I was going off of were the statements and articles of the past few years, none of which specifically name any cards being designed for modern. I assumed it may be a thing, but with how much they drive in their narrative (MaRo specifically) that sets are designed with Standard and Limited in mind, it seems most Modern playable cards become that way due to accident rather than specific planning. Interesting read for sure. Definitely gives very different vibe than the past two years of statements.
People often misquote and misinterpret Maro as well. On his Drive To Work podcasts he talks OFTEN about the need to design cards for all different types of players in all different types of formats. Yes, overwhelmingly they design cards for the current and future standards and how things work together in limited, but they absolutely do seed cards that specifically impact different formats if the need or desire for such cards presents themselves within the context of their plans for standard. They may not always be up front with what cards were seeded for those other formats, but that doesn't mean they aren't there.
from what i know is that they design card for a lot of format, like EDH, draft, modern, etc.
BUT the development (testing) is mainly (99,99%) focused on draft/standard.
And as a modern player im fine with this, i dont like the ever changing standard meta, so modern, while is shaked sometimes, is good for me. And if a card is too good for my format(modern)? they can ban it.
The reason I chose needle is its applications are pretty broad. I mean it hits every walker and most every relevant creature that isn't a beatstick. I mean something that causes problems for Nahiri, LotV, Karn, Ugin, Scooze, Viscera seer, Kiki Jiki, aether vial and every fetchland out there seems pretty viable. Maybe four in the side is enough though since it's a tougher game 1 play.
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Modern GB Rock U Flooding Merfolk RUG Delver Midrange WU Monks UW Tempo Geist GW Bogle GW Liege UR Tron B Vampires
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Fish
Goblins
Burn
Reanimator
Dredge
Affinity EDH W Akroma GBW Ghave BRU Thrax GR Ruric I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
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In my experience, this is untrue. Unless you are dying next turn, they HAVE to do something to nahiri or get emrakuled, and even then the -2 can get you out of some bad spots. It presents such a clock that it can't really be ignored; most of the time it ends up being a 2 or 3 for 1 for me (or i just win off emrakul) just because people have to use so many resources to remove it. Since when is a 2 for 1 bad for jeskai? This will obviously change when people start packing more dreadbore or maelstrom pulse.
And that really is where we find ourselves in modern. Several weeks ago everyone was all "oh no coco is too good" and then people sided for it more and it went away. now everyone is like "nahiri is too good" (not everyone obviously, I'm using hyperbole) but people will start preparing for it and it will go away, while they dilute their decks and a different strategy will enter the gap. it finally is beginning to feel like an eternal format, in the sense that there are 15ish decks in tier 1-2, and metagaming matters alot. For the time being I don't think anything needs banned or unbanned, even if I personally would like blue to be better in general.
Death and Taxes
Pauper
UB Teachings
Tortured Existence
Murasa Tron
Modern
Pod (RIP)
Bloom(RIP)
Merfolk
As a ex-Grixis control player, Nahiri isn't really scary. Nahiri's -2 ability is super easy to play around.
I'm personally moving to UWR Jeskai with Nahiri... but it isn't because of Nahiri
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Now, all that being said, I expect to see a possible resurgence of the use of pithing needle in the main deck because of Nahiri. As good as LotV is, she is merely an awesome support card that notably does not say "play me, protect me and in three turns you win the game." Unfortunately, all hate directed at Nahiri will also hit every planeswalker. LotV was great because while annoying, she didn't warrant special attention because her loyalty was lower and manageable with creatures. Nahiri is out of creature's reach usually.
So, overall, great work WotC, you just made a planeswalker that could end the use of almost all other planeswalkers.
Now I'll admit, that scenario is several steps away, but definitely feels like a possibility. I am honestly surprised though that WotC was dumb enough to put that ability on a planeswalker and make it really achievable. Once again demonstrating that WotC does not test for modern/legacy at all.
GB Rock
U Flooding Merfolk
RUG Delver Midrange
WU Monks
UW Tempo Geist
GW Bogle
GW Liege
UR Tron
B Vampires
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Goblins
Burn
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Dredge
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BRU Thrax
GR Ruric
I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
Seriously, shut up. This is one of the whiniest most over the top reasons to get mad that I've read on here in a while.
Let the deck/planeswalker actually break something before you go whining about it.
All I hear is complaining about how the power level is so low and that there are no new toys for eternal players to play with. EVERY time we get one there is some contingent of players that comes out of the woodwork to go on and on about how everything is ruined because WOTC is stupid or doesn't test or *(insert ridiculously convoluted argument here)*.
Unbelievable.
Also, you're DRAMATICALLY underselling how powerful and game changing LOTV is. For real.
Before Nahiri, Lily, Karn, and Ugin were the only top-tier planeswalker in Modern. Random sideboard copies of Jace in Twin don't count, and the Tron walkers were confined to a single deck. Now at least other colors can play a competitive planeswalker, and yet here we are in the thread approaching (or exceeding) the usual level of alarmism and hyperbole.
It's upsetting that whenever Modern gets new cards, large community subsections react negatively. Or whenever there's metagame movement of any kind, those same subsections respond with ban talk. This is a powerful format with powerful cards. If we never ever want Tier 1 decks to change, we can just ban everything new that comes along. Or we can accept some degree of flux as powerful new entrants appear in Modern.
Standard: lol no
Modern: BG/x, UR/x, Burn, Merfolk, Zoo, Storm
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Delver (BUG, RUG, Grixis), Landstill, Depths Combo, Merfolk
Vintage: Dark Times, BUG Fish, Merfolk
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion / Krenko, Mob Boss / Stonebrow, Krosan Hero
One of the reasons Nahiri is so powerful in modern (and probably better than Jace) is that she has two different very powerful ways to survive to untap -- she kills a big tapped threat or she plusses and dodges up to 5 power on board.
JTMS is much stronger once you untap than Nahiri, but Nahiri is far more likely to survive to untap.
A couple walkers that have seen quite a bit of play in Modern that are left off of the list are Gideon Jura and Elspeth, Sun's Champion, both of whom have stellar defense.
In short, defense is more important for modern walkers than in legacy, and Nahiri's main power is her sick defense.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
Will people be so quick to use planeswalkers with hate for them becoming a real thing? Now there will be three tier one or nearly tier one decks that rely heavily on walker interaction. Does that mean main deck hate for them should become a thing? I guess that's my question.
GB Rock
U Flooding Merfolk
RUG Delver Midrange
WU Monks
UW Tempo Geist
GW Bogle
GW Liege
UR Tron
B Vampires
Affinity
Legacy
Fish
Goblins
Burn
Reanimator
Dredge
Affinity
EDH
W Akroma
GBW Ghave
BRU Thrax
GR Ruric
I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
GB Rock
U Flooding Merfolk
RUG Delver Midrange
WU Monks
UW Tempo Geist
GW Bogle
GW Liege
UR Tron
B Vampires
Affinity
Legacy
Fish
Goblins
Burn
Reanimator
Dredge
Affinity
EDH
W Akroma
GBW Ghave
BRU Thrax
GR Ruric
I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
Yes. Let the metagame adapt and evolve like it should be doing in a non-rotating format. There's this strange idea in Modern that if players have to make any adjustments to their core 60 Tier 1 cards then the format has been warped. Evolutions are fine and inevitable in non-rotating formats, and Jund players having to increase the Pulse count and add Dreadbore is part of that.
And for the record, let me reiterate that I DO NOT think Nahiri is broken or needing a ban. I do however think that her presence as a primary win condition, along with the tron guys (Karn and Ugin) may put planeswalker hate onto the map as main deck material. To me that is a significant shift in the meta at large. And I'm not saying that shouldn't happen, rather that it is remarkable that it very well could.
GB Rock
U Flooding Merfolk
RUG Delver Midrange
WU Monks
UW Tempo Geist
GW Bogle
GW Liege
UR Tron
B Vampires
Affinity
Legacy
Fish
Goblins
Burn
Reanimator
Dredge
Affinity
EDH
W Akroma
GBW Ghave
BRU Thrax
GR Ruric
I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
Needle is good but creature-kill is always critical in Modern. If you can double your Nahiri answer as a removal spell for Goyfs, Tasigurs, Nacatls, Guides, etc., then that's a big plus. I would love to see more Needle but I see where it loses out to hard removal like Pulse and DB.
When people observe and remark on major metagame shifts in the ban thread in the context of a Nahiri ban discussion, it doesn't come off as just a casual note about the metagame. If you want to discuss those kinds of shifts, the Nahiri thread or the Metagame thread would be less loaded venues.
Highly doubtful. They design cards specifically for Draft and Standard. If something is good in Modern, it's usually an accident, oversight, or lucky. It's unlikely that Modern influenced the design whatsoever. Remember that Treasure Cruise and Dig Through Time were perfectly fine throughout two years of Standard but banned in every eternal format.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
Standard: lol no
Modern: BG/x, UR/x, Burn, Merfolk, Zoo, Storm
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Delver (BUG, RUG, Grixis), Landstill, Depths Combo, Merfolk
Vintage: Dark Times, BUG Fish, Merfolk
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion / Krenko, Mob Boss / Stonebrow, Krosan Hero
Standard: lol no
Modern: BG/x, UR/x, Burn, Merfolk, Zoo, Storm
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Delver (BUG, RUG, Grixis), Landstill, Depths Combo, Merfolk
Vintage: Dark Times, BUG Fish, Merfolk
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion / Krenko, Mob Boss / Stonebrow, Krosan Hero
We don't know that, unless there's some article I don't know about acknowledging it. Decay works fantastically in eternal formats, but design and development for new sets is always driven by Standard and Limited. I'm sure someone somewhere along the design tree must have thought "hey, this might be good in Modern/Legacy," but that probably would have been long after initial design phases.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
This whole "they don't design for other formats" thing is a myth. They do. Abrupt Decay is a perfect example, as design put it in specifically to fight Counterbalance in Legacy.
What they don't do is TEST their Standard cards for older formats. There's a big difference between design and test.
Standard: lol no
Modern: BG/x, UR/x, Burn, Merfolk, Zoo, Storm
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Delver (BUG, RUG, Grixis), Landstill, Depths Combo, Merfolk
Vintage: Dark Times, BUG Fish, Merfolk
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion / Krenko, Mob Boss / Stonebrow, Krosan Hero
I guess if correlation = causality, then sure. We're making assumptions because it makes perfect sense, not because anyone in the company actually said so.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
Eric Lauer said:
"Modern is a format created by players, not developers. So we tend to be hands off, although we try to avoid adding turn-three kills. With Legacy, we sometimes design "answer cards" such as Abrupt Decay being an answer to Counterbalance. When appropriate, we might do that with Modern. But we haven't had to yet."
(Source: http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/week-was/looking-back-modern-2012-11-15)
Tom LaPille also said that Mental Misstep was printed with Brainstorm in mind in Legacy, but they overshot it.
Standard: lol no
Modern: BG/x, UR/x, Burn, Merfolk, Zoo, Storm
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Delver (BUG, RUG, Grixis), Landstill, Depths Combo, Merfolk
Vintage: Dark Times, BUG Fish, Merfolk
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion / Krenko, Mob Boss / Stonebrow, Krosan Hero
I honestly had no idea. I searched for similar articles and found nothing and came back to the game well after that was published. All I was going off of were the statements and articles of the past few years, none of which specifically name any cards being designed for modern. I assumed it may be a thing, but with how much they drive in their narrative (MaRo specifically) that sets are designed with Standard and Limited in mind, it seems most Modern playable cards become that way due to accident rather than specific planning. Interesting read for sure. Definitely gives very different vibe than the past two years of statements.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
Standard: lol no
Modern: BG/x, UR/x, Burn, Merfolk, Zoo, Storm
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Delver (BUG, RUG, Grixis), Landstill, Depths Combo, Merfolk
Vintage: Dark Times, BUG Fish, Merfolk
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion / Krenko, Mob Boss / Stonebrow, Krosan Hero
People often misquote and misinterpret Maro as well. On his Drive To Work podcasts he talks OFTEN about the need to design cards for all different types of players in all different types of formats. Yes, overwhelmingly they design cards for the current and future standards and how things work together in limited, but they absolutely do seed cards that specifically impact different formats if the need or desire for such cards presents themselves within the context of their plans for standard. They may not always be up front with what cards were seeded for those other formats, but that doesn't mean they aren't there.
BUT the development (testing) is mainly (99,99%) focused on draft/standard.
And as a modern player im fine with this, i dont like the ever changing standard meta, so modern, while is shaked sometimes, is good for me. And if a card is too good for my format(modern)? they can ban it.
GB Rock
U Flooding Merfolk
RUG Delver Midrange
WU Monks
UW Tempo Geist
GW Bogle
GW Liege
UR Tron
B Vampires
Affinity
Legacy
Fish
Goblins
Burn
Reanimator
Dredge
Affinity
EDH
W Akroma
GBW Ghave
BRU Thrax
GR Ruric
I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.