MTG Salvation

I honestly think that JTMS and SFM would be perfectly fine. Based on my legacy experience, Jitte is just too absurdly strong.

Quote from solidscheme »

Question: Why is Stoneforge Mystic, Jace, The Mind Sculptor banned? SFM has soooo many answers to it and it's equipment. Jace is extremely lackluster for a turn four play especially in this aggro and combo environment. Jace never even set foot in Modern. He was banned straight from Standard all because that format at the time had limited answers to planeswalkers and activated abilities. All it needed was Pithing Needle and Caw Blade wouldn't be much of a threat. Modern on the other hand is filled with answers.

Other cards that have many answers for them in Modern are Umezawa's Jitte, Dread Return and Second Sunrise.

What gives?

There are technically a lot of answers to SFM, but almost all of them are not profitable. A 2 drop that either gets you a 2 for 1 or just wins you the game if unanswered could definitely be a little too strong. I actually am not necessarily sure it would be, but there's also the issue that every white deck would play SFM, and other decks might even splash white just for it. If Splinter Twin was banned for decreasing diversity, there's no way SFM will ever be unbanned.

As for Jace, well, like you said it doesn't actually help much against combo and aggro. All it does is scream "kill me before turn 4 bro!" to which the rest of the format will oblige, and the end result will be that blue decks are twice as expensive but not actually better positioned at all. Jace is a card that's stupidly overpowered against fair decks and doesn't do anything against unfair ones typically. I wish people would just forget that the card even existed, it was a major design mistake and has been acknowledged as such. Let's just put it to bed, please.

I hope you aren't serious about Jitte or Second Sunrise.

Dude, stop. Just stop. You can't compare Jitte to skullclamp. No matter what happens (except exile) skullclamp always benefits. Thre Jitte creature can still die and you have to re-equip it to something. In legacy that might work with the little amount of removal and tiny creatures they use, but in Modern?

Question what does Jace do on turn four againt CoCo? Burn? Tron? Eldrazi?

Quote from solidscheme »

So you're telling me all of the artifact disruption in Modern is not able to stop an equipment that doesn't do anything until after damage? Turn three 4/4 gets beat by 1,2,3-mana spells. Abrupt Decay, Reclamation Sage, Path to Exile, Terminate, Echoing Truth, Ancient Grudge, Pithing Needle, Dismember, Beast Within, Stony Silence? That's just the minimum. Dude, this not standard. Those banned cards are no where near as effective as they use to be. You can be comboed-out or poisoned on turn three/four.

If you think that Abrupt Decay or Path to Exile "beat" Stoneforge Mystic than you must be pretty off on some key fundamentals of Magic.

Quote from solidscheme »

Question what does Jace do on turn four againt CoCo? Burn? Tron? Eldrazi?

Nothing really. However, Jace does quite a bit turn 4 against any fair deck. This is exactly why I think he should rot on the banlist forever.

Why should I elaborate? For godsake those cards have been discussed inside and out. But okay. Quick and dirty:
SFM: Limits Design space and is a tutor. It would slot into several decks and homogenize the meta around it.
JtMS: Best PW ever printed and an admitted mistake by WotC. It would be an auto include in any type of blue control deck. Personally I question its viability since so many decks can kill either the turn it comes down or even before. Still though, at 4 mana there is absolutely no better investment.
Jitte: As stated by others, if it comes on line it's over. While control still needs a boost, this would blow aggro decks out of the water, akin to what has happened in Legacy.
Dread Return: Dredge is a thing. Three critters to get a critter is too fast, even if dredge wasn't lurking out there.
Second Sunrise: The only card I'm aware of that has been banned because it leads to a boring ass strategy that takes to long to win.

Quote from FZA »

Quote from solidscheme »

So you're telling me all of the artifact disruption in Modern is not able to stop an equipment that doesn't do anything until after damage? Turn three 4/4 gets beat by 1,2,3-mana spells. Abrupt Decay, Reclamation Sage, Path to Exile, Terminate, Echoing Truth, Ancient Grudge, Pithing Needle, Dismember, Beast Within, Stony Silence? That's just the minimum. Dude, this not standard. Those banned cards are no where near as effective as they use to be. You can be comboed-out or poisoned on turn three/four.

If you think that Abrupt Decay or Path to Exile "beat" Stoneforge Mystic than you must be pretty off on some key fundamentals of Magic.

SFM doesn't past the lightning bolt test. You get an equipment that stays in your hand unless manually put it down or find a way to keep another SFM safe for a turn. Tell me what I'm missing especially since you picked only TWO cards out of all the options?

I have tested Jitte, you do NOT want Zoo or Affinity, or any midrange deck getting it. It would be an automatic 4 in any creature deck, it is not powerful, it is actually, Top 20 individual cards in Magic broken in half. I want Jace and Mystic to come off, but do me a favor, take a stock Jund list, cut the 4 Bobs and test with Jitte instead, you will understand. Same goes for any deck that is not combo, just try it

Quote from solidscheme »

Quote from FZA »

Quote from solidscheme »

So you're telling me all of the artifact disruption in Modern is not able to stop an equipment that doesn't do anything until after damage? Turn three 4/4 gets beat by 1,2,3-mana spells. Abrupt Decay, Reclamation Sage, Path to Exile, Terminate, Echoing Truth, Ancient Grudge, Pithing Needle, Dismember, Beast Within, Stony Silence? That's just the minimum. Dude, this not standard. Those banned cards are no where near as effective as they use to be. You can be comboed-out or poisoned on turn three/four.

If you think that Abrupt Decay or Path to Exile "beat" Stoneforge Mystic than you must be pretty off on some key fundamentals of Magic.

SFM doesn't past the lightning bolt test. You get an equipment that stays in your hand unless manually put it down or find a way to keep another SFM safe for a turn. Tell me what I'm missing especially since you picked only TWO cards out of all the options?

You're missing the fact that even if SFM is killed, you still got to tutor for an equipment. So I spent one card to kill your card which replaced itself. You got a 2 for 1, and all I got was a very marginal tempo gain (if I killed it with a bolt).

The only cards that profitably answer SFM are either too narrow to be played main deck (Ancient Grudge) or cost more than 2 mana (Kolaghan's Command).

Honestly though if you're going to cite cards like Pithing Needle or Beast Within (lol) as reasons that SFM is safe to unban, it suggests you're pretty out of touch with the format.

See this is why asked if you are trolling. These conversations have happened literally dozens of times, some of them in the last year. You've (solidscheme) have been a member since 2006 and you ask why? Really? Everybody who has an inkling of the game or follows it at all has a pretty good idea. Do we necessarily agree with those reasons, well that is a different question altogether.

Quote from FZA »

Quote from solidscheme »

Quote from FZA »

Quote from solidscheme »

So you're telling me all of the artifact disruption in Modern is not able to stop an equipment that doesn't do anything until after damage? Turn three 4/4 gets beat by 1,2,3-mana spells. Abrupt Decay, Reclamation Sage, Path to Exile, Terminate, Echoing Truth, Ancient Grudge, Pithing Needle, Dismember, Beast Within, Stony Silence? That's just the minimum. Dude, this not standard. Those banned cards are no where near as effective as they use to be. You can be comboed-out or poisoned on turn three/four.

If you think that Abrupt Decay or Path to Exile "beat" Stoneforge Mystic than you must be pretty off on some key fundamentals of Magic.

SFM doesn't past the lightning bolt test. You get an equipment that stays in your hand unless manually put it down or find a way to keep another SFM safe for a turn. Tell me what I'm missing especially since you picked only TWO cards out of all the options?

You're missing the fact that even if SFM is killed, you still got to tutor for an equipment. So I spent one card to kill your card which replaced itself. You got a 2 for 1, and all I got was a very marginal tempo gain (if I killed it with a bolt).

The only cards that profitably answer SFM are either too narrow to be played main deck (Ancient Grudge) or cost more than 2 mana (Kolaghan's Command).

Honestly though if you're going to cite cards like Pithing Needle or Beast Within (lol) as reasons that SFM is safe to unban, it suggests you're pretty out of touch with the format.

It really doesn't matter. A 4/4 is nothing in this format of knock-your-head-off-in-one-turn. The thing looks downright silly next to something like living end or Grisel.

Right, because the entire format is made up of uninteractive combo decks.

Seriously, your post just sounds like all of the Standard players who love to make dumb jokes about Modern - "lol guys look at those silly modern players and all those combo decks! Isn't it so much more fun to cast Siege Rhino a million times and not think about anything except for combat math?"

Really though, I would ask that you at least be somewhat familiar with the format before coming here with questions like that. It honestly sounds like you're just here to trash on the format in which case I will no longer be obliging you.

Quote from FZA »

Quote from solidscheme »

Quote from FZA »

Quote from solidscheme »

So you're telling me all of the artifact disruption in Modern is not able to stop an equipment that doesn't do anything until after damage? Turn three 4/4 gets beat by 1,2,3-mana spells. Abrupt Decay, Reclamation Sage, Path to Exile, Terminate, Echoing Truth, Ancient Grudge, Pithing Needle, Dismember, Beast Within, Stony Silence? That's just the minimum. Dude, this not standard. Those banned cards are no where near as effective as they use to be. You can be comboed-out or poisoned on turn three/four.

If you think that Abrupt Decay or Path to Exile "beat" Stoneforge Mystic than you must be pretty off on some key fundamentals of Magic.

SFM doesn't past the lightning bolt test. You get an equipment that stays in your hand unless manually put it down or find a way to keep another SFM safe for a turn. Tell me what I'm missing especially since you picked only TWO cards out of all the options?

You're missing the fact that even if SFM is killed, you still got to tutor for an equipment. So I spent one card to kill your card which replaced itself. You got a 2 for 1, and all I got was a very marginal tempo gain (if I killed it with a bolt).

The only cards that profitably answer SFM are either too narrow to be played main deck (Ancient Grudge) or cost more than 2 mana (Kolaghan's Command).

Honestly though if you're going to cite cards like Pithing Needle or Beast Within (lol) as reasons that SFM is safe to unban, it suggests you're pretty out of touch with the format.

All I want to say is that the swords are unplayable if you need to hard cast them. Tapping 3 mana for sword of what and ever can lose you a game easy. They also require a boardstate.

Swords might not be playable on their own, but when you play a 2 drop and it gets bolted but you still end up with a sword in your hand out of the deal, that's a pretty significant advantage. You essentially got that sword in your hand for free at that point.

Quote from FZA »

Right, because the entire format is made up of uninteractive combo decks.

Seriously, your post just sounds like all of the Standard players who love to make dumb jokes about Modern - "lol guys look at those silly modern players and all those combo decks! Isn't it so much more fun to cast Siege Rhino a million times and not think about anything except for combat math?"

Really though, I would ask that you at least be somewhat familiar with the format before coming here with questions like that. It honestly sounds like you're just here to trash on the format in which case I will no longer be obliging you.

Dude, you're doing the same thing. You're acting like a 4/4 on turn three in modern is something special. I LOVE Modern and I want to see the stagnation it currently has get shaken up a little. We NEED some blue control decks in this format. It's seems we're too comfortable with the same decks being played forever. I remember extended being better in the brewing department, especially with control decks.

The format is far from stagnant right now. Maybe your meta is but as a whole, the format is still spinning. As an archetype control has almost always been weak in modern. Personally I think its by design because control hampers the development of other decks as much as late game as combo does early game. I like what WotC has done with control because if its too powerful it's going to lock decks out of the format. Control necessarily has to be weak. By control here I'm meaning permission based draw go kinds of stuff. I also think control has been hamstrung to help limit match time. Every game going for 15-20 turns starts to be logistically difficult. Same reason eggs had to go.

Quote from solidscheme »

Dude, you're doing the same thing. You're acting like a 4/4 on turn three in modern is something special. I LOVE Modern and I want to see the stagnation it currently has get shaken up a little. We NEED some blue control decks in this format. It's seems we're too comfortable with the same decks being played forever. I remember extended being better in the brewing department, especially with control decks.

What we "NEED" to do is wait for the results from SCG Indy, TCG States, and the GP Weekend. Without those T8s/T32s/Day 2s we do not have an accurate picture of what the metagame needs and does not need. This directly affects SFM, JTMS, and Jitte, all of which may or may not be safe in Modern depending on the broader metagame context. Unfortunately, we don't have that broader context right now, so we can't know if they are actually safe unbans.

I will say that Wizards has historically not unbanned cards which slot into existing top-tier decks. This has been true of 100% of their past unbans and I suspect it's a relatively firm policy. If so, SFM is unlikely to come off because it may improve the decidedly top-tier Abzan Company. But again, that's a matter of testing, not speculation, and I'm unwilling to test anything until we have results to indicate what must be tested.

DR and Sunrise are separate matters. DR is unlikely to ever be unbanned because it just contributes to another deck that tries to violate the turn four rule. Even if the deck can be regulated through various types of interaction, Modern does not need any more decks pushing the turn four rule. I suspect Wizards will never unban any cards that fit into decks that could violate that rule, even if they might end up being fair in practice. Given the uncertainties in unbanning cards, this is a risk-averse policy which I respect and believe Wizards should uphold.

As for Sunrise, it was a demonstrable logistical problem for tournaments. It will never be unbanned because all it takes is a tiny cohort of 2-3 players on the deck to ensure every round goes too long. That's a nightmare at GPs and will never happen again.

Quote from solidscheme »

Quote from FZA »

Right, because the entire format is made up of uninteractive combo decks.

Seriously, your post just sounds like all of the Standard players who love to make dumb jokes about Modern - "lol guys look at those silly modern players and all those combo decks! Isn't it so much more fun to cast Siege Rhino a million times and not think about anything except for combat math?"

Really though, I would ask that you at least be somewhat familiar with the format before coming here with questions like that. It honestly sounds like you're just here to trash on the format in which case I will no longer be obliging you.

Dude, you're doing the same thing. You're acting like a 4/4 on turn three in modern is something special. I LOVE Modern and I want to see the stagnation it currently has get shaken up a little. We NEED some blue control decks in this format. It's seems we're too comfortable with the same decks being played forever. I remember extended being better in the brewing department, especially with control decks.

The whole reason control is enjoyable in the first place is because it rewards tight play and tends to have even matchups against the rest of the field. This is why I enjoy playing control and midrange decks and I'm guessing that's why most people enjoy them as well.

If you unban cards like Jace and SFM that just turn control's matchup against BGx, Zoo, and other fair non blue decks into 65-35 matchups but don't help at all vs. the linear decks that they actually need help against, you're just turning them into what Tron is now, a deck with a lot of really good and really bad matchups and not too many even ones. Also, you'll turn every control mirror into "who can resolve Jace first?" rather than the fun and interesting matches that they are now.

At times Modern already feels too dependent on matchups to me; your fate at a tournament shouldn't rest so much on who a computer randomly pairs you against. More even matchups across the board = more fun format. So I'd rather not make changes to the format that exacerbate this issue.

You keep talking about how SFM will do nothing against all the linear decks in Modern, so if that's the case, why unban SFM in the first place?

Quote from solidscheme »

Quote from FZA »

Right, because the entire format is made up of uninteractive combo decks.

Seriously, your post just sounds like all of the Standard players who love to make dumb jokes about Modern - "lol guys look at those silly modern players and all those combo decks! Isn't it so much more fun to cast Siege Rhino a million times and not think about anything except for combat math?"

Really though, I would ask that you at least be somewhat familiar with the format before coming here with questions like that. It honestly sounds like you're just here to trash on the format in which case I will no longer be obliging you.

Dude, you're doing the same thing. You're acting like a 4/4 on turn three in modern is something special. I LOVE Modern and I want to see the stagnation it currently has get shaken up a little. We NEED some blue control decks in this format. It's seems we're too comfortable with the same decks being played forever. I remember extended being better in the brewing department, especially with control decks.

There are literally 25+ viable decks in the format right now. There's no way anything you're saying isn't trolling at this point.

Quote from FZA »

Quote from solidscheme »

Quote from FZA »

Right, because the entire format is made up of uninteractive combo decks.

Seriously, your post just sounds like all of the Standard players who love to make dumb jokes about Modern - "lol guys look at those silly modern players and all those combo decks! Isn't it so much more fun to cast Siege Rhino a million times and not think about anything except for combat math?"

Really though, I would ask that you at least be somewhat familiar with the format before coming here with questions like that. It honestly sounds like you're just here to trash on the format in which case I will no longer be obliging you.

Dude, you're doing the same thing. You're acting like a 4/4 on turn three in modern is something special. I LOVE Modern and I want to see the stagnation it currently has get shaken up a little. We NEED some blue control decks in this format. It's seems we're too comfortable with the same decks being played forever. I remember extended being better in the brewing department, especially with control decks.

The whole reason control is enjoyable in the first place is because it rewards tight play and tends to have even matchups against the rest of the field. This is why I enjoy playing control and midrange decks and I'm guessing that's why most people enjoy them as well.

If you unban cards like Jace and SFM that just turn control's matchup against BGx, Zoo, and other fair non blue decks into 65-35 matchups but don't help at all vs. the linear decks that they actually need help against, you're just turning them into what Tron is now, a deck with a lot of really good and really bad matchups and not too many even ones. Also, you'll turn every control mirror into "who can resolve Jace first?" rather than the fun and interesting matches that they are now.

At times Modern already feels too dependent on matchups to me; your fate at a tournament shouldn't rest so much on who a computer randomly pairs you against. More even matchups across the board = more fun format. So I'd rather not make changes to the format that exacerbate this issue.

You keep talking about how SFM will do nothing against all the linear decks in Modern, so if that's the case, why unban SFM in the first place?

It might get people brewing also the ban is for problematic cards. I don't see it as a problem especially with what we already have in the format.

"This card probably wouldn't be broken" isn't enough justification to unban a card, especially one that we've experienced to be broken in the past. There has to be some reasoning as to why it would improve the format to make it worth the risk, however small that risk may be.

When I look at JTMS I see a card that would make the format a lot more expensive for blue players and not more enjoyable. No thank you.

Control is totally playable right now, anyway. Jeskai Control is a perfectly viable deck.

Quote from solidscheme »

Quote from FZA »

Right, because the entire format is made up of uninteractive combo decks.

Seriously, your post just sounds like all of the Standard players who love to make dumb jokes about Modern - "lol guys look at those silly modern players and all those combo decks! Isn't it so much more fun to cast Siege Rhino a million times and not think about anything except for combat math?"

Really though, I would ask that you at least be somewhat familiar with the format before coming here with questions like that. It honestly sounds like you're just here to trash on the format in which case I will no longer be obliging you.

Dude, you're doing the same thing. You're acting like a 4/4 on turn three in modern is something special. I LOVE Modern and I want to see the stagnation it currently has get shaken up a little. We NEED some blue control decks in this format. It's seems we're too comfortable with the same decks being played forever. I remember extended being better in the brewing department, especially with control decks.

Wtf? Stagnation? You realizr what the last 5 months have been like for modern, right?what we need is some goddamn stability

In addition, i personally agree with you on the jace and sfm unbans, but your approaching the problem entirely wrong. Your trying to explain why the card is safe in modern, which granted is important but is not something you can explain. You need to do testing and get real data to prove a card is safe.

In addition your only explanation why they are safe is that they "die to removal", when the real question is what if they DONT get answered. The reason why jace is safe or unsafe is not because you can name him with pithing needle or you 'just die on t4 anyway", the reason he would be safe would be because landing him on t4 and then untapping with him doesnt just make you 95% to win against most of the field.

Finally, your missing the most important part to get a card unbanned, why do we need it unbanned? What good does it do for the format? Why is this actuslly good, not just good in your opinion? What decks does it improve, and are there any over dominant decks this card will tune down?

Quote from bfrie »

Quote from solidscheme »

Quote from FZA »

Right, because the entire format is made up of uninteractive combo decks.

Seriously, your post just sounds like all of the Standard players who love to make dumb jokes about Modern - "lol guys look at those silly modern players and all those combo decks! Isn't it so much more fun to cast Siege Rhino a million times and not think about anything except for combat math?"

Really though, I would ask that you at least be somewhat familiar with the format before coming here with questions like that. It honestly sounds like you're just here to trash on the format in which case I will no longer be obliging you.

Dude, you're doing the same thing. You're acting like a 4/4 on turn three in modern is something special. I LOVE Modern and I want to see the stagnation it currently has get shaken up a little. We NEED some blue control decks in this format. It's seems we're too comfortable with the same decks being played forever. I remember extended being better in the brewing department, especially with control decks.

Wtf? Stagnation? You realizr what the last 5 months have been like for modern, right?what we need is some goddamn stability

In addition, i personally agree with you on the jace and sfm unbans, but your approaching the problem entirely wrong. Your trying to explain why the card is safe in modern, which granted is important but is not something you can explain. You need to do testing and get real data to prove a card is safe.

In addition your only explanation why they are safe is that they "die to removal", when the real question is what if they DONT get answered. The reason why jace is safe or unsafe is not because you can name him with pithing needle or you 'just die on t4 anyway", the reason he would be safe would be because landing him on t4 and then untapping with him doesnt just make you 95% to win against most of the field.

Finally, your missing the most important part to get a card unbanned, why do we need it unbanned? What good does it do for the format? Why is this actuslly good, not just good in your opinion? What decks does it improve, and are there any over dominant decks this card will tune down?

Yeah I know about the Eldrazi, but that's been toned-down (rightfully). It's really not about improving/adding to a deck. Why can't we make new decks? That's what this format needs to get away from. Over 8,000 cards in the format and a miniscule amount of them are used (especially new Standard sets) because of the removal test, turn four test and the "Doesn't fit in my deck" test. We need more brewing.

That's just the nature of an eternal format though. When players have access to the best of the best, most other cards aren't going to be played. Modern is already the most diverse format; it has problems, but diversity certainly isn't one.

Quote from solidscheme »

Quote from bfrie »

Quote from solidscheme »

Quote from FZA »

Right, because the entire format is made up of uninteractive combo decks.

Seriously, your post just sounds like all of the Standard players who love to make dumb jokes about Modern - "lol guys look at those silly modern players and all those combo decks! Isn't it so much more fun to cast Siege Rhino a million times and not think about anything except for combat math?"

Really though, I would ask that you at least be somewhat familiar with the format before coming here with questions like that. It honestly sounds like you're just here to trash on the format in which case I will no longer be obliging you.

Dude, you're doing the same thing. You're acting like a 4/4 on turn three in modern is something special. I LOVE Modern and I want to see the stagnation it currently has get shaken up a little. We NEED some blue control decks in this format. It's seems we're too comfortable with the same decks being played forever. I remember extended being better in the brewing department, especially with control decks.

Wtf? Stagnation? You realizr what the last 5 months have been like for modern, right?what we need is some goddamn stability

In addition, i personally agree with you on the jace and sfm unbans, but your approaching the problem entirely wrong. Your trying to explain why the card is safe in modern, which granted is important but is not something you can explain. You need to do testing and get real data to prove a card is safe.

In addition your only explanation why they are safe is that they "die to removal", when the real question is what if they DONT get answered. The reason why jace is safe or unsafe is not because you can name him with pithing needle or you 'just die on t4 anyway", the reason he would be safe would be because landing him on t4 and then untapping with him doesnt just make you 95% to win against most of the field.

Finally, your missing the most important part to get a card unbanned, why do we need it unbanned? What good does it do for the format? Why is this actuslly good, not just good in your opinion? What decks does it improve, and are there any over dominant decks this card will tune down?

Yeah I know about the Eldrazi, but that's been toned-down (rightfully). It's really not about improving/adding to a deck. Why can't we make new decks? That's what this format needs to get away from. Over 8,000 cards in the format and a miniscule amount of them are used (especially new Standard sets) because of the removal test, turn four test and the "Doesn't fit in my deck" test. We need more brewing.

The last 3 sets have created entirely new archetypes, what more could you want?