Bitterblossom is a card that's obviously there for 2 strategies: fairies and tokens, none of them was ever even close to dominance in modern so the card was harmless
AV is the most efficient in mana/commitement card draw in modern, it is already seeing play in various shells
it does not matter whether it will end up as a playset in a T1 deck immediately, thing is it's a powerfull card that can single handedly beat attrition based strategies and act as a pseudo win con much like revelation always did, ironically enough it might see less play than anticipated for no other reason than Nahiri, but any meta shift towards fairness will immediately mean uptick in AVs
unbans take months or even years to show their full effect (see nacatl, only now players realized it's good in burn- took a couple of green prints as well too-), AV is and will be extremely powerfull no matter what
Sotm is still here, Eldrazi are still here, Tron is still here, affinity is still here, it will take over a year for the meta to settle
If you can survive long enough and have enough powerful cards you can draw to, AV is great. But I can't tell you how many times I have either died with it on suspend or drew nothing relevant with it; assuming it wasn't countered once it came off suspend. The card is bad much more often than it is good; especially late game. After my personal experience with the card, it has been removed from all my lists and sits comfortably in a trade binder. Maybe you have different experiences with it than I.
SOTM is also bad, but it needs a good shell that can reliably get both pieces (because they are unplayably bad on their own) and needs enough slots for a good backup plan if the combo is disrupted. Maybe someone will figure something out for the GP? Maybe they'll figure it out some day? Given how cheap it is to build on MTGO and the complete lack of results there, I'm not optimistic anyone has created a worthwhile list.
Also, as already pointed out, Nacatl isn't universally accepted as good in burn. It's good in creature-based Zoo decks also running Kird Ape, but I have also heard from many burn players that without haste, it often does nothing before dying and isn't worth it.
Ive still never died before turn 5 playing a UR deck, are you sure your playing them right? Just the other day i suspended one turn 2 against elves, drew into another one off the first one, suspended that one, then drew 3 more cards a few turns later. If you cant make it to turn 5 as ur, then wtf are you doing playing urx, the deck that physically cant win before t5
If I'm taking my turn off to suspend a card, it means I'm not holding up Bolt, Path, Snare, Leak, Remand, Terminate, etc. Those are the cards that allow me to reliably live long enough to win the game. If I'm losing before turn 5, it means I either don't have enough interaction in my hand (which could be found with Serum Visions), or I decided that my mana was better spent on things that don't impact the game for several turns.
So having an AV in hand means you're required to make the worst decision possible given the board state?
What board state? Its turn 1. If you're on the play and you have an AV in hand and cast it, you dont get to react to anything the opponent plays following that, regardless of how bad it is for you. You can react the turn after, but you're not saying that has no impact on the game whatsoever, right?
I'm starting to get the impression you've only played from across the card, but never with it. AV is not without a opportunity cost.
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Bitterblossom is a card that's obviously there for 2 strategies: fairies and tokens, none of them was ever even close to dominance in modern so the card was harmless
AV is the most efficient in mana/commitement card draw in modern, it is already seeing play in various shells
it does not matter whether it will end up as a playset in a T1 deck immediately, thing is it's a powerfull card that can single handedly beat attrition based strategies and act as a pseudo win con much like revelation always did, ironically enough it might see less play than anticipated for no other reason than Nahiri, but any meta shift towards fairness will immediately mean uptick in AVs
unbans take months or even years to show their full effect (see nacatl, only now players realized it's good in burn- took a couple of green prints as well too-), AV is and will be extremely powerfull no matter what
Sotm is still here, Eldrazi are still here, Tron is still here, affinity is still here, it will take over a year for the meta to settle
If you can survive long enough and have enough powerful cards you can draw to, AV is great. But I can't tell you how many times I have either died with it on suspend or drew nothing relevant with it; assuming it wasn't countered once it came off suspend. The card is bad much more often than it is good; especially late game. After my personal experience with the card, it has been removed from all my lists and sits comfortably in a trade binder. Maybe you have different experiences with it than I.
SOTM is also bad, but it needs a good shell that can reliably get both pieces (because they are unplayably bad on their own) and needs enough slots for a good backup plan if the combo is disrupted. Maybe someone will figure something out for the GP? Maybe they'll figure it out some day? Given how cheap it is to build on MTGO and the complete lack of results there, I'm not optimistic anyone has created a worthwhile list.
Also, as already pointed out, Nacatl isn't universally accepted as good in burn. It's good in creature-based Zoo decks also running Kird Ape, but I have also heard from many burn players that without haste, it often does nothing before dying and isn't worth it.
Ive still never died before turn 5 playing a UR deck, are you sure your playing them right? Just the other day i suspended one turn 2 against elves, drew into another one off the first one, suspended that one, then drew 3 more cards a few turns later. If you cant make it to turn 5 as ur, then wtf are you doing playing urx, the deck that physically cant win before t5
If I'm taking my turn off to suspend a card, it means I'm not holding up Bolt, Path, Snare, Leak, Remand, Terminate, etc. Those are the cards that allow me to reliably live long enough to win the game. If I'm losing before turn 5, it means I either don't have enough interaction in my hand (which could be found with Serum Visions), or I decided that my mana was better spent on things that don't impact the game for several turns.
its one mana.... you can path the thing on turn two, or if it is turn two, then you can still hold up path.... this is a poor excuse
No, its really not. There is a huge difference; playing from "in front" or "from behind". As control you'd much rather be in front and playing the game on the opponent's end step. When you're forced to act earlier, thats where things start to leak through. Missing that chance to Snare that goyf means you path it; and then you lost the removal that could kill that Finks that resolves next turn, where it should have been a Snare for Goyf and Path for Finks.
This is just 1 of a myriad of possible scenarios where spending Turn 1 to exile a card from your hand can have consequences. If you've ground out approximately 50-60 games since the unban with AV, you'd recognize these problems, risks and costs outside of the Suspend - U.
Again, I'm not saying AV is weak. But it sure as heck is being oversold as the ultimate card in the format here.
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If you can survive long enough and have enough powerful cards you can draw to, AV is great. But I can't tell you how many times I have either died with it on suspend or drew nothing relevant with it; assuming it wasn't countered once it came off suspend. The card is bad much more often than it is good; especially late game. After my personal experience with the card, it has been removed from all my lists and sits comfortably in a trade binder. Maybe you have different experiences with it than I.
SOTM is also bad, but it needs a good shell that can reliably get both pieces (because they are unplayably bad on their own) and needs enough slots for a good backup plan if the combo is disrupted. Maybe someone will figure something out for the GP? Maybe they'll figure it out some day? Given how cheap it is to build on MTGO and the complete lack of results there, I'm not optimistic anyone has created a worthwhile list.
Also, as already pointed out, Nacatl isn't universally accepted as good in burn. It's good in creature-based Zoo decks also running Kird Ape, but I have also heard from many burn players that without haste, it often does nothing before dying and isn't worth it.
Ive still never died before turn 5 playing a UR deck, are you sure your playing them right? Just the other day i suspended one turn 2 against elves, drew into another one off the first one, suspended that one, then drew 3 more cards a few turns later. If you cant make it to turn 5 as ur, then wtf are you doing playing urx, the deck that physically cant win before t5
If I'm taking my turn off to suspend a card, it means I'm not holding up Bolt, Path, Snare, Leak, Remand, Terminate, etc. Those are the cards that allow me to reliably live long enough to win the game. If I'm losing before turn 5, it means I either don't have enough interaction in my hand (which could be found with Serum Visions), or I decided that my mana was better spent on things that don't impact the game for several turns.
its one mana.... you can path the thing on turn two, or if it is turn two, then you can still hold up path.... this is a poor excuse
No, its really not. There is a huge difference; playing from "in front" or "from behind". As control you'd much rather be in front and playing the game on the opponent's end step. When you're forced to act earlier, thats where things start to leak through. Missing that chance to Snare that goyf means you path it; and then you lost the removal that could kill that Finks that resolves next turn, where it should have been a Snare for Goyf and Path for Finks.
This is just 1 of a myriad of possible scenarios where spending Turn 1 to exile a card from your hand can have consequences. If you've ground out approximately 50-60 games since the unban with AV, you'd recognize these problems, risks and costs outside of the Suspend - U.
Again, I'm not saying AV is weak. But it sure as heck is being oversold as the ultimate card in the format here.
none of that explains why he always dies before turn 5 as a urx deck
also, if you run out of answers after 1 goyf and just die vs jund.... you werent winning that game regardless if you snared the goyf
I really dislike BBD's list, 4 SV and 4 AV's? Talk about greedy.
I don't know what shell to look at yet, 1 Anger seems like a good idea for sure in the MB, who doesn't want to curve into that into Nahiri?
I'm super busy with the mother-in-law coming into town this weekend, so I can't play until like Tuesday, but I bought the remaining Nahiri pieces for Jeskai on paper and MTGO, I don't want there to be a great showing and have the prices spike hard. Nahiri can be a flop, but I think the fact she's legacy playable is VERY promising, considering legacy is stricter on what's passable as good
I hope Jeskai Nahiri is a thing, that way I can main Jund and have Nahiri Jeskai as a great backup deck that feels completely different (Although every deck I'm attracted to is ALWAYS weak to RG Tron, which is frustrating)
If Nahiri becomes a thing, what stops Slaughter Games from just being a huge trump card? I wonder how viable Nahiri Jeskai is as a sustainable tier 1 deck
I see too many games where on the play you have a bunch of land and AV's and serum visions. No thanks.
There's an Elspeth as a sideboard consideration, and 2 Cliques could be some solid flashers that work well against combo and control. Not sure what other angle. Angels seem too expensive for more threats, it gets clunky with 4 Nahiri, and 2 Cryptics
If you can survive long enough and have enough powerful cards you can draw to, AV is great. But I can't tell you how many times I have either died with it on suspend or drew nothing relevant with it; assuming it wasn't countered once it came off suspend. The card is bad much more often than it is good; especially late game. After my personal experience with the card, it has been removed from all my lists and sits comfortably in a trade binder. Maybe you have different experiences with it than I.
SOTM is also bad, but it needs a good shell that can reliably get both pieces (because they are unplayably bad on their own) and needs enough slots for a good backup plan if the combo is disrupted. Maybe someone will figure something out for the GP? Maybe they'll figure it out some day? Given how cheap it is to build on MTGO and the complete lack of results there, I'm not optimistic anyone has created a worthwhile list.
Also, as already pointed out, Nacatl isn't universally accepted as good in burn. It's good in creature-based Zoo decks also running Kird Ape, but I have also heard from many burn players that without haste, it often does nothing before dying and isn't worth it.
Ive still never died before turn 5 playing a UR deck, are you sure your playing them right? Just the other day i suspended one turn 2 against elves, drew into another one off the first one, suspended that one, then drew 3 more cards a few turns later. If you cant make it to turn 5 as ur, then wtf are you doing playing urx, the deck that physically cant win before t5
If I'm taking my turn off to suspend a card, it means I'm not holding up Bolt, Path, Snare, Leak, Remand, Terminate, etc. Those are the cards that allow me to reliably live long enough to win the game. If I'm losing before turn 5, it means I either don't have enough interaction in my hand (which could be found with Serum Visions), or I decided that my mana was better spent on things that don't impact the game for several turns.
So having an AV in hand means you're required to make the worst decision possible given the board state?
What board state? Its turn 1. If you're on the play and you have an AV in hand and cast it, you dont get to react to anything the opponent plays following that, regardless of how bad it is for you. You can react the turn after, but you're not saying that has no impact on the game whatsoever, right?
I'm starting to get the impression you've only played from across the card, but never with it. AV is not without a opportunity cost.
Then you've somehow gotten the wrong impression. I've had my playset of AV for a very long time because my primary Legacy deck, which I play weekly, is Shardless. I also play Modern twice a week unless there's a higher level event to go to on the weekend and while Jund is my primary Modern deck I've also brought many iterations of Esper, Jeskai, Temur and Grixis decks with AV since its unbanning.
Turn 1 on the draw there's a board state. You've seen at the very least what land your opponent played. Or if it's an aggressive deck, around which this conversation centers, they've probably played a creature. If they have and your hand and the board dictate that you play something other than AV then do it. If you're on the play and know what your opponent is on you can make a similarly informed choice. That's what I was saying.
Too often the argument has been that the player chose to suspend AV in the face of a situation where he shouldn't have and got punished for it. All I'm saying is to do what you should do in each situation. Sometimes that means you don't play a certain card, AV included.
There's only 1 deck where I've been punished so far for dropping an AV turn 1 on the play, and that was when I didn't know my opponent was on Affinity and T1 spammed his hand. I could have snared the ravager on his turn and had two lands for removal as a follow up. But that's the only game out of dozens where the loss was directly attributable to suspending AV on T1.
I'm also picking up very large hints that people are keeping the wrong hands. Just because you have lands, AV, and another card or two with text on it doesn't mean it's a keep. If you're keeping a hand that can't win against an aggro deck, and you suspend AV turn 1 and get blown out, the loss isn't because you suspended it but because of the hand you kept.
BBD's list is clunky and awful. Plus he says himself it's the first time he even cast AV in modern (probably just jamming it for the sake of doing so), so who knows how old or unrefined his list is. If I'm going to watch someone play it, I'd much rather watch Hoogland, who spends a lot of time in his streams explaining and justifying his lists and changes to the Nahiri Emrakul (and Nahiri Kiki) combos.
Also, AV is awesome on turn 1 and gets exponentially worse every additional turn. It also takes precious slots which can be used for other cards that are relevant at all points of the game. To me, that sliding scale of usability is not worth it, especially with the new Nahiri lists.
I'm not on board with the resto - wall plan and angel, we literally may as well be playing Jeff hooglands kiki chord deck at that point
I think not running 2 cryptic commands is a huge mistake, it's too powerful not to.
I meant running elspeth on the sideboard, good backup plan if people start getting cute with trying to slaughter games or somehow take out nahiri and emerakul
Speaking of which, surgical extraction hits emerakul in the graveyard, correct, they play it on the stack before he shuffles back into the graveyard?
I'm hearing the deck doesn't have crazy weaknesses, mainly scapeshift, rg tron and graveyard recursion decks. Tron could be an issue, but you can afford to run 3 crumble to dusts and 2 stony silence to make games 2 and 3 actually winnable unlike jund v rg tron
I definitely don't know the correct number of spellsnares, electrolyzes, counters and maindeck boardwipes but I think there will be a consensus soon.
I'm excited for jeskai, nahiri is a pain, but the deck can attack from so many angles, so much spot removal, snapcasters, helixes, manlands, and nahiri herself is spot removal too. And like I said, for the first time ever jeskai can actually destroy enchantments, that's never happened before
I don't expect Nahiri jeskai to hit top 8 or anything this weekend, the shell isn't figured out yet, but it looks promising
Everyone was excited for thing in the ice, sotm, and av, who knew the planeswalker from the new set everyone dismissed in all 3 formats could be the hottest thing
I think serum visions may be better, I want to smooth out my draws more than keeping a bad hand with av or topdecking it early against aggro
Too many people keep av hands with like all lands and 1 supreme verdict
Serum visions never felt good enough to me to turn a bad hand into keepable, so i was never in that habit, but i suppose i see streamers all the time keeping 1 land +sv hands, so i suppose that could be a real thing
when you already struggle to live to T5, isn't it kinda expected that you are not going to like AV?
That's not what I said, but thanks for putting words in my mouth. I am also playing different strategies besides pure control, because I feel pure control has terrible closing speed (and my local meta is full of Tron and Eggs, which is a nightmare matchup). This highlights again why lumping all URx strategies together is pointless because so many lists are completely and fundamentally different.
so maybe you have to refine your list, your lines and your mulligan decisions first and revisit the whole 'card evaluation' thing latter? sorry if i sound like a jerk, but someone has to say it, since you insist so much on AV and blue in general being so bad
Are you saying Jeff Hoogland is bad at evaluating cards? The guy does nothing but brew decks and Top 8 Opens and I'm just forwarding his comments.
Serum visions never felt good enough to me to turn a bad hand into keepable, so i was never in that habit, but i suppose i see streamers all the time keeping 1 land +sv hands, so i suppose that could be a real thing
Depending on the deck, 1 land + SV is great. In Delver running 18-19 lands, that's often one of the better things you could ask for. In a draw-go shell running 4, 5, and 6 drops, it's not even remotely keepable.
I'm not on board with the resto - wall plan and angel, we literally may as well be playing Jeff hooglands kiki chord deck at that point
I think not running 2 cryptic commands is a huge mistake, it's too powerful not to.
I meant running elspeth on the sideboard, good backup plan if people start getting cute with trying to slaughter games or somehow take out nahiri and emerakul
Speaking of which, surgical extraction hits emerakul in the graveyard, correct, they play it on the stack before he shuffles back into the graveyard?
I'm hearing the deck doesn't have crazy weaknesses, mainly scapeshift, rg tron and graveyard recursion decks. Tron could be an issue, but you can afford to run 3 crumble to dusts and 2 stony silence to make games 2 and 3 actually winnable unlike jund v rg tron
I definitely don't know the correct number of spellsnares, electrolyzes, counters and maindeck boardwipes but I think there will be a consensus soon.
I'm excited for jeskai, nahiri is a pain, but the deck can attack from so many angles, so much spot removal, snapcasters, helixes, manlands, and nahiri herself is spot removal too. And like I said, for the first time ever jeskai can actually destroy enchantments, that's never happened before
I don't expect Nahiri jeskai to hit top 8 or anything this weekend, the shell isn't figured out yet, but it looks promising
Everyone was excited for thing in the ice, sotm, and av, who knew the planeswalker from the new set everyone dismissed in all 3 formats could be the hottest thing
I think serum visions may be better, I want to smooth out my draws more than keeping a bad hand with av or topdecking it early against aggro
Too many people keep av hands with like all lands and 1 supreme verdict
If the deck has to choose between AV and SV, I'll take SV. The reason is that we don't want to draw Emrakul with no way to put him back into the deck, we want to cheat him out with Nahiri. Scrying with SV helps that. That said, we can always loot him away with Nahiri's plus ability.
didn't you? becuse if i'm just putting words into your mouth others seem to be on the same topic (dying before resolving AV) as well, did i put words into their ears too?
Dying before AV resolves does not automatically equate to "dying on turn 5." It means casting it at some point in the game and dying with it on suspend. Sometimes it's early, sometimes it's not. It is possible to die before turn 5 against some decks and a poor draw (which AV does nothing to help), but it is certainly not the only case. Clearly that was either not stated well enough or people made their own assumptions. The point I was making was the card did not perform as much as I would like. Either it did not draw me the cards I needed anyway or it sat on suspend and did nothing. I've suspended and resolved the card in dozens and dozens of matches online and in paper, and it was only really excellent 2 or 3 times. So I made the judgement call that it was not worth it in the kinds of decks I was playing. Which, again, can greatly differ since URx (and even strictly Jeskai) can be built a number of different ways. At the time, most of my builds were "Jeskai Flash" or Kiki/Resto lists. AV may shine better in 27-land Elspeth lists. But this is another consequence of blindly lumping all URx decks together.
didn't you? becuse if i'm just putting words into your mouth others seem to be on the same topic (dying before resolving AV) as well, did i put words into their ears too?
Dying before AV resolves does not automatically equate to "dying on turn 5." It means casting it at some point in the game and dying with it on suspend. Sometimes it's early, sometimes it's not. It is possible to die before turn 5 against some decks and a poor draw (which AV does nothing to help), but it is certainly not the only case. Clearly that was either not stated well enough or people made their own assumptions. The point I was making was the card did not perform as much as I would like. Either it did not draw me the cards I needed anyway or it sat on suspend and did nothing. I've suspended and resolved the card in dozens and dozens of matches online and in paper, and it was only really excellent 2 or 3 times. So I made the judgement call that it was not worth it in the kinds of decks I was playing. Which, again, can greatly differ since URx (and even strictly Jeskai) can be built a number of different ways. At the time, most of my builds were "Jeskai Flash" or Kiki/Resto lists. AV may shine better in 27-land Elspeth lists. But this is another consequence of blindly lumping all URx decks together.
If you die with AV on suspend and you didn't suspend it on Turn 1, then AV doesn't matter whatsoever in why you died. As long as the situation doesn't include a misplay regarding AV, of course.
I still maintain that SV needs to be run as a 4 of, with AV being a 2-3 of, with the rest for the play set in the side. While AV is great first turn, its not something that needs built around, its a bonus. Card selection is whats important in the early game, and with the current speed of the format, you need to be relevent in the early game.
Nahiri filters late game AVs you don't wan, while also giving you a nice win condition. Jeskia looks to be the best shell for AV, though AV+Liliana sounds quite powerful for Grixis. AV will find a home in a tier one deck. Its too powerful not too. To think that we'd be able to find the correct home for it in a month it's stupid. Give it time.
didn't you? becuse if i'm just putting words into your mouth others seem to be on the same topic (dying before resolving AV) as well, did i put words into their ears too?
Dying before AV resolves does not automatically equate to "dying on turn 5." It means casting it at some point in the game and dying with it on suspend. Sometimes it's early, sometimes it's not. It is possible to die before turn 5 against some decks and a poor draw (which AV does nothing to help), but it is certainly not the only case. Clearly that was either not stated well enough or people made their own assumptions. The point I was making was the card did not perform as much as I would like. Either it did not draw me the cards I needed anyway or it sat on suspend and did nothing. I've suspended and resolved the card in dozens and dozens of matches online and in paper, and it was only really excellent 2 or 3 times. So I made the judgement call that it was not worth it in the kinds of decks I was playing. Which, again, can greatly differ since URx (and even strictly Jeskai) can be built a number of different ways. At the time, most of my builds were "Jeskai Flash" or Kiki/Resto lists. AV may shine better in 27-land Elspeth lists. But this is another consequence of blindly lumping all URx decks together.
If you die with AV on suspend and you didn't suspend it on Turn 1, then AV doesn't matter whatsoever in why you died. As long as the situation doesn't include a misplay regarding AV, of course.
The upside wasn't worth 4 slots in the decks I was playing. But I guess everything is black and white and all lists want the same cards in the same way, right?
Serum visions never felt good enough to me to turn a bad hand into keepable, so i was never in that habit, but i suppose i see streamers all the time keeping 1 land +sv hands, so i suppose that could be a real thing
It depends on the matchup, my opponents deck, and if I'm on the play or the draw. I have no issues keeping a 1 land hand if my hand is very low to the ground with spot removal or counters and I'm not pressured to answer an immediate threat. Serum visions draws me a card and let's me scry 2. If I have like 2 spot removal answers with a bolt and a path I'll risk it, been doing it a ton and it's rarely bitten me in the ass
didn't you? becuse if i'm just putting words into your mouth others seem to be on the same topic (dying before resolving AV) as well, did i put words into their ears too?
Dying before AV resolves does not automatically equate to "dying on turn 5." It means casting it at some point in the game and dying with it on suspend. Sometimes it's early, sometimes it's not. It is possible to die before turn 5 against some decks and a poor draw (which AV does nothing to help), but it is certainly not the only case. Clearly that was either not stated well enough or people made their own assumptions. The point I was making was the card did not perform as much as I would like. Either it did not draw me the cards I needed anyway or it sat on suspend and did nothing. I've suspended and resolved the card in dozens and dozens of matches online and in paper, and it was only really excellent 2 or 3 times. So I made the judgement call that it was not worth it in the kinds of decks I was playing. Which, again, can greatly differ since URx (and even strictly Jeskai) can be built a number of different ways. At the time, most of my builds were "Jeskai Flash" or Kiki/Resto lists. AV may shine better in 27-land Elspeth lists. But this is another consequence of blindly lumping all URx decks together.
If you die with AV on suspend and you didn't suspend it on Turn 1, then AV doesn't matter whatsoever in why you died. As long as the situation doesn't include a misplay regarding AV, of course.
The upside wasn't worth 4 slots in the decks I was playing. But I guess everything is black and white and all lists want the same cards in the same way, right?
Question: Why is Stoneforge Mystic, Jace, The Mind Sculptor banned? SFM has soooo many answers to it and it's equipment. Jace is extremely lackluster for a turn four play especially in this aggro and combo environment. Jace never even set foot in Modern. He was banned straight from Standard all because that format at the time had limited answers to planeswalkers and activated abilities. All it needed was Pithing Needle and Caw Blade wouldn't be much of a threat. Modern on the other hand is filled with answers.
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Warning for trolling -ktkenshinx-
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Modern GB Rock U Flooding Merfolk RUG Delver Midrange WU Monks UW Tempo Geist GW Bogle GW Liege UR Tron B Vampires
Affinity Legacy
Fish
Goblins
Burn
Reanimator
Dredge
Affinity EDH W Akroma GBW Ghave BRU Thrax GR Ruric I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
Question: Why is Stoneforge Mystic, Jace, The Mind Sculptor banned? SFM has soooo many answers to it and it's equipment. Jace is extremely lackluster for a turn four play especially in this aggro and combo environment. Jace never even set foot in Modern. He was banned straight from Standard all because that format at the time had limited answers to planeswalkers and activated abilities. All it needed was Pithing Needle and Caw Blade wouldn't be much of a threat. Modern on the other hand is filled with answers.
Jitte I can answer. If the equipped creature connects with anything once, it basically becomes impossible to beat the jitte controller with creatures. At absolute worst it gains you a bunch of life.
Jitte might as well read 2c, win all creature combat for the rest of the game. Stoneforge is banned because a 4/4 vigilance lifelinker at the end of t3 is too strong for the format.
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Legacy
Death and Taxes Pauper
UB Teachings
Tortured Existence
Murasa Tron Modern
Pod (RIP)
Bloom(RIP)
Merfolk
You've been a member since 2006, longer than I have and you are asking noobish questions. That's why I asked if you're trolling. Do I need to regurgitate the tired rhetoric given to us over and over again regarding the cards you mentioned or is it enough to say it's WotC game and the cards are banned because they say so? I'm not saying I agree with them but if you need someone to give you the preexisting reasons your just not paying attention or you are trolling.
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Modern GB Rock U Flooding Merfolk RUG Delver Midrange WU Monks UW Tempo Geist GW Bogle GW Liege UR Tron B Vampires
Affinity Legacy
Fish
Goblins
Burn
Reanimator
Dredge
Affinity EDH W Akroma GBW Ghave BRU Thrax GR Ruric I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
So you're telling me all of the artifact disruption in Modern is not able to stop an equipment that doesn't do anything until after damage? Turn three 4/4 gets beat by 1,2,3-mana spells. Abrupt Decay, Reclamation Sage, Path to Exile, Terminate, Echoing Truth, Ancient Grudge, Pithing Needle, Dismember, Beast Within, Stony Silence? That's just the minimum. Dude, this not standard. Those banned cards are no where near as effective as they use to be. You can be comboed-out or poisoned on turn three/four.
Question: Why is Stoneforge Mystic, Jace, The Mind Sculptor banned? SFM has soooo many answers to it and it's equipment. Jace is extremely lackluster for a turn four play especially in this aggro and combo environment. Jace never even set foot in Modern. He was banned straight from Standard all because that format at the time had limited answers to planeswalkers and activated abilities. All it needed was Pithing Needle and Caw Blade wouldn't be much of a threat. Modern on the other hand is filled with answers.
Jitte is the second most ridiculously pushed equipment in the history of magic the gathering (ONLY to be bested by Skullclamp) and JTMS is BY FAR the most pushed planeswalker. To pretend that these cards are irrelevant is to prove EXACTLY why I'm glad players have no control over the ban list.
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What board state? Its turn 1. If you're on the play and you have an AV in hand and cast it, you dont get to react to anything the opponent plays following that, regardless of how bad it is for you. You can react the turn after, but you're not saying that has no impact on the game whatsoever, right?
I'm starting to get the impression you've only played from across the card, but never with it. AV is not without a opportunity cost.
BGW Elves BGW|BW Tokens BW|WBR Sword&ShieldWBR|BUG DelverBUG|UWR Kiki UWR | UR Storm UR
No, its really not. There is a huge difference; playing from "in front" or "from behind". As control you'd much rather be in front and playing the game on the opponent's end step. When you're forced to act earlier, thats where things start to leak through. Missing that chance to Snare that goyf means you path it; and then you lost the removal that could kill that Finks that resolves next turn, where it should have been a Snare for Goyf and Path for Finks.
This is just 1 of a myriad of possible scenarios where spending Turn 1 to exile a card from your hand can have consequences. If you've ground out approximately 50-60 games since the unban with AV, you'd recognize these problems, risks and costs outside of the Suspend - U.
Again, I'm not saying AV is weak. But it sure as heck is being oversold as the ultimate card in the format here.
BGW Elves BGW|BW Tokens BW|WBR Sword&ShieldWBR|BUG DelverBUG|UWR Kiki UWR | UR Storm UR
none of that explains why he always dies before turn 5 as a urx deck
also, if you run out of answers after 1 goyf and just die vs jund.... you werent winning that game regardless if you snared the goyf
UWRjeskai nahiri UWR
UBRgrixis titi UBR
UBRgrixis delverUBR
UR ur kikimite UR
EDH
RUG Riku of Two Reflections RUG
UBR Marchesa, the Black Rose UBR
UBRGYidris, Maelstrom Wielder UBRG
UBRJeleva, Nephalia's ScourgeUBR
I don't know what shell to look at yet, 1 Anger seems like a good idea for sure in the MB, who doesn't want to curve into that into Nahiri?
I'm super busy with the mother-in-law coming into town this weekend, so I can't play until like Tuesday, but I bought the remaining Nahiri pieces for Jeskai on paper and MTGO, I don't want there to be a great showing and have the prices spike hard. Nahiri can be a flop, but I think the fact she's legacy playable is VERY promising, considering legacy is stricter on what's passable as good
I hope Jeskai Nahiri is a thing, that way I can main Jund and have Nahiri Jeskai as a great backup deck that feels completely different (Although every deck I'm attracted to is ALWAYS weak to RG Tron, which is frustrating)
If Nahiri becomes a thing, what stops Slaughter Games from just being a huge trump card? I wonder how viable Nahiri Jeskai is as a sustainable tier 1 deck
There's an Elspeth as a sideboard consideration, and 2 Cliques could be some solid flashers that work well against combo and control. Not sure what other angle. Angels seem too expensive for more threats, it gets clunky with 4 Nahiri, and 2 Cryptics
Turn 1 on the draw there's a board state. You've seen at the very least what land your opponent played. Or if it's an aggressive deck, around which this conversation centers, they've probably played a creature. If they have and your hand and the board dictate that you play something other than AV then do it. If you're on the play and know what your opponent is on you can make a similarly informed choice. That's what I was saying.
Too often the argument has been that the player chose to suspend AV in the face of a situation where he shouldn't have and got punished for it. All I'm saying is to do what you should do in each situation. Sometimes that means you don't play a certain card, AV included.
There's only 1 deck where I've been punished so far for dropping an AV turn 1 on the play, and that was when I didn't know my opponent was on Affinity and T1 spammed his hand. I could have snared the ravager on his turn and had two lands for removal as a follow up. But that's the only game out of dozens where the loss was directly attributable to suspending AV on T1.
I'm also picking up very large hints that people are keeping the wrong hands. Just because you have lands, AV, and another card or two with text on it doesn't mean it's a keep. If you're keeping a hand that can't win against an aggro deck, and you suspend AV turn 1 and get blown out, the loss isn't because you suspended it but because of the hand you kept.
Standard: lol no
Modern: BG/x, UR/x, Burn, Merfolk, Zoo, Storm
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Delver (BUG, RUG, Grixis), Landstill, Depths Combo, Merfolk
Vintage: Dark Times, BUG Fish, Merfolk
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion / Krenko, Mob Boss / Stonebrow, Krosan Hero
Also, AV is awesome on turn 1 and gets exponentially worse every additional turn. It also takes precious slots which can be used for other cards that are relevant at all points of the game. To me, that sliding scale of usability is not worth it, especially with the new Nahiri lists.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
I think not running 2 cryptic commands is a huge mistake, it's too powerful not to.
I meant running elspeth on the sideboard, good backup plan if people start getting cute with trying to slaughter games or somehow take out nahiri and emerakul
Speaking of which, surgical extraction hits emerakul in the graveyard, correct, they play it on the stack before he shuffles back into the graveyard?
I'm hearing the deck doesn't have crazy weaknesses, mainly scapeshift, rg tron and graveyard recursion decks. Tron could be an issue, but you can afford to run 3 crumble to dusts and 2 stony silence to make games 2 and 3 actually winnable unlike jund v rg tron
I definitely don't know the correct number of spellsnares, electrolyzes, counters and maindeck boardwipes but I think there will be a consensus soon.
I'm excited for jeskai, nahiri is a pain, but the deck can attack from so many angles, so much spot removal, snapcasters, helixes, manlands, and nahiri herself is spot removal too. And like I said, for the first time ever jeskai can actually destroy enchantments, that's never happened before
I don't expect Nahiri jeskai to hit top 8 or anything this weekend, the shell isn't figured out yet, but it looks promising
Everyone was excited for thing in the ice, sotm, and av, who knew the planeswalker from the new set everyone dismissed in all 3 formats could be the hottest thing
I think serum visions may be better, I want to smooth out my draws more than keeping a bad hand with av or topdecking it early against aggro
Too many people keep av hands with like all lands and 1 supreme verdict
UWRjeskai nahiri UWR
UBRgrixis titi UBR
UBRgrixis delverUBR
UR ur kikimite UR
EDH
RUG Riku of Two Reflections RUG
UBR Marchesa, the Black Rose UBR
UBRGYidris, Maelstrom Wielder UBRG
UBRJeleva, Nephalia's ScourgeUBR
That's not what I said, but thanks for putting words in my mouth. I am also playing different strategies besides pure control, because I feel pure control has terrible closing speed (and my local meta is full of Tron and Eggs, which is a nightmare matchup). This highlights again why lumping all URx strategies together is pointless because so many lists are completely and fundamentally different.
Are you saying Jeff Hoogland is bad at evaluating cards? The guy does nothing but brew decks and Top 8 Opens and I'm just forwarding his comments.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
Depending on the deck, 1 land + SV is great. In Delver running 18-19 lands, that's often one of the better things you could ask for. In a draw-go shell running 4, 5, and 6 drops, it's not even remotely keepable.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
Standard: lol no
Modern: BG/x, UR/x, Burn, Merfolk, Zoo, Storm
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Delver (BUG, RUG, Grixis), Landstill, Depths Combo, Merfolk
Vintage: Dark Times, BUG Fish, Merfolk
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion / Krenko, Mob Boss / Stonebrow, Krosan Hero
Dying before AV resolves does not automatically equate to "dying on turn 5." It means casting it at some point in the game and dying with it on suspend. Sometimes it's early, sometimes it's not. It is possible to die before turn 5 against some decks and a poor draw (which AV does nothing to help), but it is certainly not the only case. Clearly that was either not stated well enough or people made their own assumptions. The point I was making was the card did not perform as much as I would like. Either it did not draw me the cards I needed anyway or it sat on suspend and did nothing. I've suspended and resolved the card in dozens and dozens of matches online and in paper, and it was only really excellent 2 or 3 times. So I made the judgement call that it was not worth it in the kinds of decks I was playing. Which, again, can greatly differ since URx (and even strictly Jeskai) can be built a number of different ways. At the time, most of my builds were "Jeskai Flash" or Kiki/Resto lists. AV may shine better in 27-land Elspeth lists. But this is another consequence of blindly lumping all URx decks together.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
Standard: lol no
Modern: BG/x, UR/x, Burn, Merfolk, Zoo, Storm
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Delver (BUG, RUG, Grixis), Landstill, Depths Combo, Merfolk
Vintage: Dark Times, BUG Fish, Merfolk
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion / Krenko, Mob Boss / Stonebrow, Krosan Hero
Nahiri filters late game AVs you don't wan, while also giving you a nice win condition. Jeskia looks to be the best shell for AV, though AV+Liliana sounds quite powerful for Grixis. AV will find a home in a tier one deck. Its too powerful not too. To think that we'd be able to find the correct home for it in a month it's stupid. Give it time.
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The upside wasn't worth 4 slots in the decks I was playing. But I guess everything is black and white and all lists want the same cards in the same way, right?
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
It depends on the matchup, my opponents deck, and if I'm on the play or the draw. I have no issues keeping a 1 land hand if my hand is very low to the ground with spot removal or counters and I'm not pressured to answer an immediate threat. Serum visions draws me a card and let's me scry 2. If I have like 2 spot removal answers with a bolt and a path I'll risk it, been doing it a ton and it's rarely bitten me in the ass
Standard: lol no
Modern: BG/x, UR/x, Burn, Merfolk, Zoo, Storm
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Delver (BUG, RUG, Grixis), Landstill, Depths Combo, Merfolk
Vintage: Dark Times, BUG Fish, Merfolk
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion / Krenko, Mob Boss / Stonebrow, Krosan Hero
Other cards that have many answers for them in Modern are Umezawa's Jitte, Dread Return and Second Sunrise.
What gives?
GB Rock
U Flooding Merfolk
RUG Delver Midrange
WU Monks
UW Tempo Geist
GW Bogle
GW Liege
UR Tron
B Vampires
Affinity
Legacy
Fish
Goblins
Burn
Reanimator
Dredge
Affinity
EDH
W Akroma
GBW Ghave
BRU Thrax
GR Ruric
I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
Jitte I can answer. If the equipped creature connects with anything once, it basically becomes impossible to beat the jitte controller with creatures. At absolute worst it gains you a bunch of life.
Jitte might as well read 2c, win all creature combat for the rest of the game. Stoneforge is banned because a 4/4 vigilance lifelinker at the end of t3 is too strong for the format.
Death and Taxes
Pauper
UB Teachings
Tortured Existence
Murasa Tron
Modern
Pod (RIP)
Bloom(RIP)
Merfolk
GB Rock
U Flooding Merfolk
RUG Delver Midrange
WU Monks
UW Tempo Geist
GW Bogle
GW Liege
UR Tron
B Vampires
Affinity
Legacy
Fish
Goblins
Burn
Reanimator
Dredge
Affinity
EDH
W Akroma
GBW Ghave
BRU Thrax
GR Ruric
I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
Wow.
Jitte is the second most ridiculously pushed equipment in the history of magic the gathering (ONLY to be bested by Skullclamp) and JTMS is BY FAR the most pushed planeswalker. To pretend that these cards are irrelevant is to prove EXACTLY why I'm glad players have no control over the ban list.