I don't think GSZ will ever see the light of day again. It narrows green decks, is good at all points of the game, and is a repeatable tutor. It goes against so many of the Modern ideals. Chord could well be on a watch list, but if it is, I would think it less likely to get hit than something like Goryo's Vengance or Mox Opal. And I think the afformentioned cards are safe barring a sudden uptick in play and preformace of the decks that run those cards.
Modern has finally returned to being a brewing paradise. Less fear of bans, wide open format, and the ability to attack on many angles. Lets enjoy it for a while? I think Modern is much more ripe for a few unbans than bans right now.
Yes, this is definitely true. I personally don't want to see any changes until at least 2 ban announcements from now, unless something is wrong. At that point, I hope Jund's 4 drops are evaluated and Bloodbraid Elf is considered. I actually was thinking about a spicy RUG list with Bloodbraid Elf. I know the chances of cascading into Ancestral Vision is pretty low, but there is a lot of value otherwise. It kind of plays out like the old Next Level Blue decks that played Tarmogoyf.
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I don't think GSZ will ever see the light of day again. It narrows green decks, is good at all points of the game, and is a repeatable tutor. It goes against so many of the Modern ideals. Chord could well be on a watch list, but if it is, I would think it less likely to get hit than something like Goryo's Vengance or Mox Opal. And I think the afformentioned cards are safe barring a sudden uptick in play and preformace of the decks that run those cards.
Modern has finally returned to being a brewing paradise. Less fear of bans, wide open format, and the ability to attack on many angles. Lets enjoy it for a while? I think Modern is much more ripe for a few unbans than bans right now.
Chord of Calling is perfectly safe, and not even a great card on a power level to begin with. It's a little bit clunky, and cant use it till the beginning of the game. It would make a laughable card out of the banlist.
I do not think Mox Opal or Goryos will be banned now, with no PT. Bans are over, except if Grishoalbrand wins too much.
You inadvertently made a great point here - do we think players are going to start picking up some of the decks that were a little sketchy before now without the threat of banning? I know MANY people who didn't play Amulet because they knew it was going to get axed and so it's meta share could have been much higher. Any chance we see a similar effect for decks like Grishoalbrand, Ad Nauseam or Bubble Hulk?
I don't think GSZ will ever see the light of day again. It narrows green decks, is good at all points of the game, and is a repeatable tutor. It goes against so many of the Modern ideals. Chord could well be on a watch list, but if it is, I would think it less likely to get hit than something like Goryo's Vengance or Mox Opal. And I think the afformentioned cards are safe barring a sudden uptick in play and preformace of the decks that run those cards.
Modern has finally returned to being a brewing paradise. Less fear of bans, wide open format, and the ability to attack on many angles. Lets enjoy it for a while? I think Modern is much more ripe for a few unbans than bans right now.
Chord of Calling is perfectly safe, and not even a great card on a power level to begin with. It's a little bit clunky, and cant use it till the beginning of the game. It would make a laughable card out of the banlist.
I do not think Mox Opal or Goryos will be banned now, with no PT. Bans are over, except if Grishoalbrand wins too much.
You inadvertently made a great point here - do we think players are going to start picking up some of the decks that were a little sketchy before now without the threat of banning? I know MANY people who didn't play Amulet because they knew it was going to get axed and so it's meta share could have been much higher. Any chance we see a similar effect for decks like Grishoalbrand, Ad Nauseam or Bubble Hulk?
I think the meta share would already be higher than it is if something like that were going on.
GSZ is other story. It's not like the card is so much more powerful than Chord of Calling and in Abzan CoCo it actually wouldn't be. I don't play this deck but if I would and if GSZ was unbanned I wouldn't play it in the deck. Instant tutors it already plays are much better for this kind of deck and it lets you search for any creature not just green one. However GSZ is the best tutor overall for green decks and does so much for them at any given state of the game. With that said I don't think it will ever be released.
I agree that GSZ is not totally busted in power lever, but the thing is, every green deck would pay it. I don't really know why you said you wouldn't play it in abzan coco. I mean, abzan coco runs a lot of mana dorks, and GSZ is better than any of them. So yes, you probably would have to play 4 GSZ in abzan coco. Jund and junk would play 2 or 3, elves would run the playset, big zoo and infect would run some as well... this card is banned because it reduces the diversity of the green decks, not for power level(it would be completely busted on elves tho).
GSZ is other story. It's not like the card is so much more powerful than Chord of Calling and in Abzan CoCo it actually wouldn't be. I don't play this deck but if I would and if GSZ was unbanned I wouldn't play it in the deck. Instant tutors it already plays are much better for this kind of deck and it lets you search for any creature not just green one. However GSZ is the best tutor overall for green decks and does so much for them at any given state of the game. With that said I don't think it will ever be released.
I agree that GSZ is not totally busted in power lever, but the thing is, every green deck would pay it. I don't really know why you said you wouldn't play it in abzan coco. I mean, abzan coco runs a lot of mana dorks, and GSZ is better than any of them. So yes, you probably would have to play 4 GSZ in abzan coco. Jund and junk would play 2 or 3, elves would run the playset, big zoo and infect would run some as well... this card is banned because it reduces the diversity of the green decks, not for power level(it would be completely busted on elves tho).
Because GSZ can't grab Seer. Chord can grab any piece of their combo. That versatility is important. Chord also grabs silver bullets of any color, from Kataki to Revoker. So saying Abzan coco wont bust a power level with this card is partially correct - it wouldnt be right to drop chords for gsz in that shell. And part of the combo threat is being able to hold it up at instant speed.
Agree that in elves it would be stronger, but it again suffers from only being able to fetch green stuff - when we aren't fetching to kill, we're trying to grab kataki or revoker most times. And again GSZ lets us down there. Being able to grab Ezuri off of 1 forest and 3 dorks however, is absolutely nuts. We'd probably not toolbox anymore, and go str8 aggro.
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GSZ is other story. It's not like the card is so much more powerful than Chord of Calling and in Abzan CoCo it actually wouldn't be. I don't play this deck but if I would and if GSZ was unbanned I wouldn't play it in the deck. Instant tutors it already plays are much better for this kind of deck and it lets you search for any creature not just green one. However GSZ is the best tutor overall for green decks and does so much for them at any given state of the game. With that said I don't think it will ever be released.
I agree that GSZ is not totally busted in power lever, but the thing is, every green deck would pay it. I don't really know why you said you wouldn't play it in abzan coco. I mean, abzan coco runs a lot of mana dorks, and GSZ is better than any of them. So yes, you probably would have to play 4 GSZ in abzan coco. Jund and junk would play 2 or 3, elves would run the playset, big zoo and infect would run some as well... this card is banned because it reduces the diversity of the green decks, not for power level(it would be completely busted on elves tho).
I said it because Chord of Calling and Collected Company are better suited for Abzan Company. It's not an instant and can only search for green creatures which clearly make Chord better in this deck because it can search for any creature and that at instant speed.
The thing is, you wouldn't replace chord of calling with GSZ, you will probably replace some mana dorks and add 4 GSZ and dryad arbor. Now you have the same mana dorks as before and 4 tutors more
and of course its not all that straightforward as it now means your creature count has dropped, making coco hit that fewer creatures. (not that dorks are significant off of a coco, but still).
Another collateral damage taken is to Gavony Township, which now has less things to pump up.
It also makes the deck less resilient to blood moon, because its the dorks like BOP/hierarch that help push past those.
With more tutors you would presumably be trying harder to combo off, but ironically it can't grab one of the pieces.
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Totally agree. This just means it's time to play something no one is prepared for.
I'd like to try a Dragon control with a lot of cheap discard spells and board wipers. Who knows.
I don't think GSZ will ever see the light of day again. It narrows green decks, is good at all points of the game, and is a repeatable tutor. It goes against so many of the Modern ideals. Chord could well be on a watch list, but if it is, I would think it less likely to get hit than something like Goryo's Vengance or Mox Opal. And I think the afformentioned cards are safe barring a sudden uptick in play and preformace of the decks that run those cards.
Modern has finally returned to being a brewing paradise. Less fear of bans, wide open format, and the ability to attack on many angles. Lets enjoy it for a while? I think Modern is much more ripe for a few unbans than bans right now.
I hope there are no changes in the next few ban cycles. The format has all but completely stabilized, and it can function this way quite well for the remainder of the year.
Do you guys think that with Jund doing well and being tier 1 is there a chance that wotc risks and unban BBE?
Or only if jund falls into tier 2 for several months?
I think while the format is still trying to regain its footing after all the drastic shakeups and Jund is tier 1 with the highest metagame percentage there's no chance. I don't think Jund necessarily has to drop to tier 2 for it to be unbanned, but certainly SOME mixture of things, including time, need to happen and we're not there yet.
They're not going to unban BBE when the deck as of now has the most meta shares, along with being tier 1
BBE shouldn't have really been banned to begin with, but they won't give the deck more power
I just find it funny that not too long ago people were doomsaying the end of GBx as a viable deck because of AV. It's absolutely everywhere from what I can see and sure it lost a few points because of AV but it's still housing other random strategies like it always did.
Do you guys think that with Jund doing well and being tier 1 is there a chance that wotc risks and unban BBE?
Or only if jund falls into tier 2 for several months?
I actually think nothing will be unbanned just yet, later on yes (some cards) but but at the first upcoming B&R update list. It's same for the BBE-I expect unban (it seems the most likely card to unban) but I wouldn't put it on the unbanned list in the next update. No changes is the most likely scenario for the near future in my opinion.
I agree as well.
What other cards do you think can be unbanned during 2017 per say?
Cause I can only see busted things beyond bloodbraid ekf and maybe green Suns zenith.
I don't think GSZ can ever come off. Maybe in a world where Modern can contain DRS, SFM, JTMS, Jitte, and GSZ, then sure. But that's probably never.
The only 2 cards on the banlist that I believe have any shot of making it off the list in the next 5 years are BBE and Preordain. I guess Splinter Twin is by itself in a middle category depending on how URx does in general, but it should be a LONG time before that's ever unbanned, if at all.
In my opinion a Splinter Twin unban doesn't make much sense as long as cards like Jace, the Mind Sculptor are still on the banlist. If blue really turns out to be bad(note that I don't agree with the preemptive doomsaying, we should at least wait until the GP weekend) it would really make more sense to unban more blue cards and to not just unban Splinter Twin to be back a square one regarding the diversity of blue decks.
Why do we know that? Many people here also claimed that Ancestral Vision and Sword of the Meek are broken and shouldn't be unbanned. If these 2 cards turn out to have minimal impact again like the previous unbans (which we don't know yet) it in my opinion would increase the chance of more unbans in the future.
Regarding cantrips, I've said in the past that banning cantrips is the wrong way to balance combo decks.
Combo decks that consistently win on turn 4 would be better for the format than ones that inconsistently win on turn 2 or 3.
Take Infect for example you take away something like their Mutagenic Growth and/or Glistener Elf and give them Preordain and Ponder, this would maybe leave the deck at a similiar power level, but would not only make the the deck more fair but also help fair blue decks.
So unbanning a cantrip is definitely possible if they are willing to balance possibly problematic combo decks afterwards.
Also I find it bizzare how some people turned the discussion from: Collected Company could potentially become a problem in the future to Green Sun's Zenith is one of the safest remaining cards to unban.
I sorely hope Jace, The Mind Sculptor comes off! Almost certainly wishful thinking, but I can hope
This one is really never coming off. When and if Modern dies, this card will be in the banlist.
Just think other 4-mana planswalker (fe Nahiri, The Harbinger or older ones) and then compare it to this one!
There is the price constraint as well.
I dislike using absolute terms. I agree that it's somewhat unlikely that it will come off the banlist, but I believe that there is an environment that it could be unbanned. I agree that it's the most powerful 4CC planeswalker ever created and likely stronger than all of the 5 and maybe even 6CC ones. My hope is that since it doesn't really impact the turn 4 rule and (at least right now) no blue deck has a significant share of the meta, it's a possible target.
I sorely hope Jace, The Mind Sculptor comes off! Almost certainly wishful thinking, but I can hope
This one is really never coming off. When and if Modern dies, this card will be in the banlist.
Just think other 4-mana planswalker (fe Nahiri, The Harbinger or older ones) and then compare it to this one!
There is the price constraint as well.
Thing is, Nahiri (and really, non-Jace 3-mana planeswalkers in general) isn't very impressive to begin with. A card being better than mediocre cards doesn't make it overpowered.
I mean, just compare Liliana of the Veil to every other 3-mana planeswalker.
GSZ will never come off the list. Anybody thinking it has a chance is cracked. Too good early, too good late. DRS will come off before GSZ if that gives you any idea.
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Affinity EDH W Akroma GBW Ghave BRU Thrax GR Ruric I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
Regarding cantrips, I've said in the past that banning cantrips is the wrong way to balance combo decks.
Take Infect for example you take away something like their Mutagenic Growth and/or Glistener Elf and give them Preordain and Ponder, this would maybe leave the deck at a similiar power level, but would not only make the the deck more fair but also help fair blue decks.
There is always going to be a combo deck in the format, and probably there is always going to be a new discovered combo in the format.
1. Asking to unban cantrips like Preordain will just ensure that every time that we are going to have a new combo like Bloom, Grishoalbrand, Hulk etc you are going to ban a piece from that combo. Moreover, worse combos than bloom or grishoalbrand might take their chances to kill at turn 3 even more frequently. Maybe there will be a need for a Pyromancer Ascension,surely we will need a Goryo's Vengeance ban and maybe we will need some more combo bans in the future. So, regargind WOTC's vision to
Have as small a banned list as possible that accomplishes all the previous goals
the thing you are proposing is totally wrong from their side, again.
2. Again, cantrips like Preordain will help combo more than it will help blue control decks, and I doubt that blue control decks will be helped that much. Blue control decks just need raw card advantage, and guees what, they jus took it. There is no "if AV proves to be incompetent, unban more blue cards", because blue control decks just got a bye matchup in Jund/Junk etc etc. And with Jund rising again, having 2 matchups so much in your favor's way is important. Moreover, this card will help vs other decks as well.
So unbanning a cantrip is definitely possible if they are willing to balance possibly problematic combo decks afterwards.
The answer lies above. As I said, they want a small banlist and you can consider Preordain more of a combo deck banned than Blue controls deck card. That's how WOTC see it. Preordain/Ponder is more of a combo ban and they are pleased that way.
(About possible Ponder/Preordain unban and the relation it holds with combos)
I've heard arguments that cards like Preordain are needed to make control work in Modern, but realistically, they would be much more powerful in combo decks than the control decks. This is one of the risks of having cheap card filtering, and one of the reasons we moved away from doing it in Standard. We print cards like Anticipate, but I don't think we will make another one-mana cantrip with card selection attached to it any time soon. It just doesn't incentivize the kinds of games we want to see play out.
Part of the reason that Ponder and Preordain are banned and Sleight of Hand and Serum Visions aren't, is that the latter two are just weaker and don't do as good of a job of letting people set up their draws quickly. The problem with putting too much card filtering in a format is that it drives too many of the games to play out exactly the same. There is some novelty in this, but I think it is less fun for a format that we want to be highly re-playable.
Also I find it bizzare how some people turned the discussion from: Collected Company could potentially become a problem in the future to Green Sun's Zenith is one of the safest remaining cards to unban.
Whoever claimed A Collected Company ban is super weird and really should re-evaluate some things in Modern. GSZ is a much better Coco or Chord version, and it's probably broken and never coming off.
But talking about a GSZ possible unban, showcases how much safe/clunky CoCo/Chord are in relation.
what combo decks are you afraid of? From what I can tell no combo deck is over 1% of the meta. So what if Preordain helps them more than it helps control? It will also help control.
Decks like Storm or Grishoalbrand are always on the edge of breaking. Allowing these decks to become much more consistant is not something that really needs to be done IMO. You would also power up decks like Delver, Infect, and maybe even Counter Cat could return. Preordain is poweful enough that if you are in blue you are running Preordain. I would bet money that it would be the most played card in the format.
Now you could argue that with Preordain the format would not be a sideboard lottery like many think it to be. You'd be able to better dig for your answers, which would allow you too play more silver bullets, increasing the coverage you can run in the side. The only issue I see here is that it would shift to format from a Green format to a blue format. With Legacy being what it is, I'm unsure Wizards would want another Blue format.
Decks like Storm or Grishoalbrand are always on the edge of breaking. Allowing these decks to become much more consistant is not something that really needs to be done IMO. You would also power up decks like Delver, Infect, and maybe even Counter Cat could return. Preordain is poweful enough that if you are in blue you are running Preordain. I would bet money that it would be the most played card in the format.
Now you could argue that with Preordain the format would not be a sideboard lottery like many think it to be. You'd be able to better dig for your answers, which would allow you too play more silver bullets, increasing the coverage you can run in the side. The only issue I see here is that it would shift to format from a Green format to a blue format. With Legacy being what it is, I'm unsure Wizards would want another Blue format.
I doubt it would make fair blue decks dominant. if anything it would boost the combo more . I always ask myself why should fair blue decks suffer for broken combo decks that would run the cantrips? if you unbanned ponder and preordain for example and the only things it breaks are a couple combo decks, than maybe they are the problem and not the cantrips? would ponder and preordain really push fair blue decks over the top? I doubt it.. not in this powerful format.
Modern has finally returned to being a brewing paradise. Less fear of bans, wide open format, and the ability to attack on many angles. Lets enjoy it for a while? I think Modern is much more ripe for a few unbans than bans right now.
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Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)You inadvertently made a great point here - do we think players are going to start picking up some of the decks that were a little sketchy before now without the threat of banning? I know MANY people who didn't play Amulet because they knew it was going to get axed and so it's meta share could have been much higher. Any chance we see a similar effect for decks like Grishoalbrand, Ad Nauseam or Bubble Hulk?
Standard: lol no
Modern: BG/x, UR/x, Burn, Merfolk, Zoo, Storm
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Delver (BUG, RUG, Grixis), Landstill, Depths Combo, Merfolk
Vintage: Dark Times, BUG Fish, Merfolk
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion / Krenko, Mob Boss / Stonebrow, Krosan Hero
I agree that GSZ is not totally busted in power lever, but the thing is, every green deck would pay it. I don't really know why you said you wouldn't play it in abzan coco. I mean, abzan coco runs a lot of mana dorks, and GSZ is better than any of them. So yes, you probably would have to play 4 GSZ in abzan coco. Jund and junk would play 2 or 3, elves would run the playset, big zoo and infect would run some as well... this card is banned because it reduces the diversity of the green decks, not for power level(it would be completely busted on elves tho).
RBGW Suicide Zoo
Legacy
RUG Canadian Threshold
Because GSZ can't grab Seer. Chord can grab any piece of their combo. That versatility is important. Chord also grabs silver bullets of any color, from Kataki to Revoker. So saying Abzan coco wont bust a power level with this card is partially correct - it wouldnt be right to drop chords for gsz in that shell. And part of the combo threat is being able to hold it up at instant speed.
Agree that in elves it would be stronger, but it again suffers from only being able to fetch green stuff - when we aren't fetching to kill, we're trying to grab kataki or revoker most times. And again GSZ lets us down there. Being able to grab Ezuri off of 1 forest and 3 dorks however, is absolutely nuts. We'd probably not toolbox anymore, and go str8 aggro.
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The thing is, you wouldn't replace chord of calling with GSZ, you will probably replace some mana dorks and add 4 GSZ and dryad arbor. Now you have the same mana dorks as before and 4 tutors more
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Another collateral damage taken is to Gavony Township, which now has less things to pump up.
It also makes the deck less resilient to blood moon, because its the dorks like BOP/hierarch that help push past those.
With more tutors you would presumably be trying harder to combo off, but ironically it can't grab one of the pieces.
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I'd like to try a Dragon control with a lot of cheap discard spells and board wipers. Who knows.
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I hope there are no changes in the next few ban cycles. The format has all but completely stabilized, and it can function this way quite well for the remainder of the year.
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Standard: lol no
Modern: BG/x, UR/x, Burn, Merfolk, Zoo, Storm
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Delver (BUG, RUG, Grixis), Landstill, Depths Combo, Merfolk
Vintage: Dark Times, BUG Fish, Merfolk
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion / Krenko, Mob Boss / Stonebrow, Krosan Hero
BBE shouldn't have really been banned to begin with, but they won't give the deck more power
I just find it funny that not too long ago people were doomsaying the end of GBx as a viable deck because of AV. It's absolutely everywhere from what I can see and sure it lost a few points because of AV but it's still housing other random strategies like it always did.
The only 2 cards on the banlist that I believe have any shot of making it off the list in the next 5 years are BBE and Preordain. I guess Splinter Twin is by itself in a middle category depending on how URx does in general, but it should be a LONG time before that's ever unbanned, if at all.
Standard: lol no
Modern: BG/x, UR/x, Burn, Merfolk, Zoo, Storm
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Delver (BUG, RUG, Grixis), Landstill, Depths Combo, Merfolk
Vintage: Dark Times, BUG Fish, Merfolk
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion / Krenko, Mob Boss / Stonebrow, Krosan Hero
Regarding cantrips, I've said in the past that banning cantrips is the wrong way to balance combo decks.
Combo decks that consistently win on turn 4 would be better for the format than ones that inconsistently win on turn 2 or 3.
Take Infect for example you take away something like their Mutagenic Growth and/or Glistener Elf and give them Preordain and Ponder, this would maybe leave the deck at a similiar power level, but would not only make the the deck more fair but also help fair blue decks.
So unbanning a cantrip is definitely possible if they are willing to balance possibly problematic combo decks afterwards.
Also I find it bizzare how some people turned the discussion from: Collected Company could potentially become a problem in the future to Green Sun's Zenith is one of the safest remaining cards to unban.
I dislike using absolute terms. I agree that it's somewhat unlikely that it will come off the banlist, but I believe that there is an environment that it could be unbanned. I agree that it's the most powerful 4CC planeswalker ever created and likely stronger than all of the 5 and maybe even 6CC ones. My hope is that since it doesn't really impact the turn 4 rule and (at least right now) no blue deck has a significant share of the meta, it's a possible target.
I mean, just compare Liliana of the Veil to every other 3-mana planeswalker.
GB Rock
U Flooding Merfolk
RUG Delver Midrange
WU Monks
UW Tempo Geist
GW Bogle
GW Liege
UR Tron
B Vampires
Affinity
Legacy
Fish
Goblins
Burn
Reanimator
Dredge
Affinity
EDH
W Akroma
GBW Ghave
BRU Thrax
GR Ruric
I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
Standard: lol no
Modern: BG/x, UR/x, Burn, Merfolk, Zoo, Storm
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Delver (BUG, RUG, Grixis), Landstill, Depths Combo, Merfolk
Vintage: Dark Times, BUG Fish, Merfolk
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion / Krenko, Mob Boss / Stonebrow, Krosan Hero
Now you could argue that with Preordain the format would not be a sideboard lottery like many think it to be. You'd be able to better dig for your answers, which would allow you too play more silver bullets, increasing the coverage you can run in the side. The only issue I see here is that it would shift to format from a Green format to a blue format. With Legacy being what it is, I'm unsure Wizards would want another Blue format.
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I doubt it would make fair blue decks dominant. if anything it would boost the combo more . I always ask myself why should fair blue decks suffer for broken combo decks that would run the cantrips? if you unbanned ponder and preordain for example and the only things it breaks are a couple combo decks, than maybe they are the problem and not the cantrips? would ponder and preordain really push fair blue decks over the top? I doubt it.. not in this powerful format.
decks playing:
none