But when you have to play a way off the beaten track rogue deck like 8Rack or Lantern to have a positive percentage, and the one mainstream deck with a 'good matchup' still leaves you 50/50 and basically loses to grave hate, that's a problem. You can beat it, but you have to give up tons in other matchups, and even then it only really gets you to 50/50. That's bad.
I don't see how anyone can say that a 40% metagame share with basically 80% of pros playing the deck at events is fine. It's by far the most warped the Modern meta has ever been.
I've played Eldrazi precisely once, and I won, even through a Eye > Mimic > Mimic opening. I changed my sideboard a bit if I was expecting the deck at my FNMs. I'm fine with all that. But I can also zoom out and look at the big picture, which is that there is a core of 30ish cards played by 40% of meta at large, and that sucks and needs to be fixed.
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I can't say I'm pleased to see you and must warn you I may have to do something about it.
EDH: UGEdric
Pauper: URDelver
Modern: UGRDelver
Draft my cube: Eric's 390 Unpowered
But the reason why I say it's close is that I noticed an attendance drop during Cruise and Pod. My LGS went from 36 players to 20 players at one point. As for the Eldrazi month or 2, despite all the rumblings and only 3 people playing it, we've had 33-46 players each FNM. I honestly am not sure exactly why attendance stayed up, but maybe players are getting more "resilient" to odd changes in the meta. Just last night, a Jund player did Terminate on my Reality Smasher into Big Game Hunter on my Eldrazi Mimic. That was the first Big Game Hunter I have seen since Planar Chaos Limited. Sadly, I shrugged that off by casting a Drowner of Hope the next turn.
I honestly believe this is due to players knowing it's going to be banned because the deck is so absurdly broken and so insanely prevalent at the GP/SCG/PT level. There was just no reason to invest in it; Eye of Ugin's buylist price started dropping about 1 week after the PT finished and now a card I sold for $35 per copy in the days following the PT can now be purchased for a laughably $7-$10. That's the clearest indicator that people just aren't buying in because they know a ban is around the corner.
But then it seems like the Modern players would just not play as much until the B&R announcement, then resume. I nearly was tempted to do the same, but I decided to pick up the BFZ and Oath cards and try to win some tournaments. In 7 GPTs, I top 8ed 6 of them. (the only one I didn't top 8 was single elimination, 5 card poor hands, and nut draws by my Abzan Company opponent, 5 CoCo in 2 games) I know, excuses... My previous best was Standard UW Merfolk at top 8ing 3 of 5 tournaments (although these were PTQs, not GPTs), so Eldrazi far surpassed those numbers.
Also, I would say that I knew that Treasure Cruise would be banned. Drawing 3 cards, even at Sorcery speed for U is just too good. Pod surprised me, but I have to acknowledge that Siege Rhino pushed it past the edge. I just didn't realize that good players playing a Tier 1 deck would cause it to be banned.
*I truly expected to be playing at insanely "small attendance" tournaments during this Eldrazi "Summer."
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
Oddly enough, yeah, eldrazi is worse. Treasure cruise is definitely a far more busted card, but the eldrazi deck is far better than a modern delver deck fueled by treasure cruise.
I'm a little less upset at wizards though because it would have been a bit more difficult to spend the time in testing to figure out this deck could be potentially problematic. But treasure cruise was a just a clear indication that wizards spends next to zero time playtesting new cards in modern/legacy. I still don't understand why wizards hasn't gone to the modern and legacy communities to get help in this regard. We all know damn well there are people on this forum that are perfectly capable of evaluating cards reasonably and will actually spend the time to do so...for free, even. Modern would have a lot of problems solved by now if they actually had people doing research and playtesting things providing actual data that isn't from MTGO which is terribly skewed.
1. Treasure Cruise Delver and Rhino Pod were the 2 best decks at the time, but Affinity, Bloom Titan, and RG Breach also were good at the time. Even Burn could do okay if you caught enough people playing UR Delver, although Pod and Bloom would be tough for it, as well as Affinity having a slightly positive matchup vs. Burn as well.
Amulet Bloom was non-existant at the time, nobody really played it or took it seriously. It was a very good deck, of course, the best one in my opinion actually, but it wasn't relevant tothe metagame in any meaningful way at the time.
I can't argue with this since I know you are one of the Bloom players here.
I just thought I remembered the meta being something like this.
1. UR Delver - 20%
2. Rhino Pod - 18%
3. Affinity - 8%
4. Bloom Titan - 6%
5. Scapeshift - 5%
6. RG Breach - admittedly not played much, I think 3%, but I felt like it was a good deck vs. Delver and Pod.
Other than these times, I felt like Bloom was always played at 5% or less of the overall meta. I could be mistaken, so I hope someone can dig up some numbers. Yes, I'm lazy.
Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
Now its fairly easy to build to beat the Eldrazi if they are the majority in your meta.
Ha! Haha! Hahahaha! If only we told that to all those thousands of people who got destroyed in every major event since February!
Its because the player base is upset with Wotc actions and refuse to adapt. The player base allowed the format to be the way it was the last 3 months. Look at the players that actually care about the format and didnt play Eldrazi and how good they did during that same time frame. Eldrazi did not win every event. There was a small contingency actually adapting and trying to beat the Eldrazi. Then there was those pissed they had to actually think and adapt to a new deck and said screw it, this format sucks, and kept pounding their old deck against a wall complaining about the Eldrazi.
It was the Magic version of taking the ball and going home and not caring.
How they didn't want to adapt to it when 99% of the deck gets crushed by Eldrazi no matter what you do. The decks is broken and the fact that people didn't (couldn't) adapt to it doesn't change that. Only a few decks do good against it (Abzan Company, Living End, Affinity and maybe some more) while the rest doesn't and many decks are unplayable because of this (GBx and other interactive decks) or much weaker and all this just because of one deck. I don't know how can you justify that. It should be nerfed no matter what and this is the only thing that would help format from getting out of the hell.
Yes the Eldrazi narrowed deck selection, but the deck was not unbeatable.
I watched guys that grind the PT, have PT points and are very good deck builders and players build decks using cards some would never think of using against the Eldrazi and have a lopsided positive match up like 60-40, 65-35, and refuse to take those decks to high level events because they were pissed at what Wotc did to the format.
Yes the Eldrazi narrowed deck selection, but the deck was not unbeatable.
I watched guys that grind the PT, have PT points and are very good deck builders and players build decks using cards some would never think of using against the Eldrazi and have a lopsided positive match up like 60-40, 65-35, and refuse to take those decks to high level events because they were pissed at what Wotc did to the format.
So we will see how things play out.
Well, anyone could build decks like that. Problem is you now are a dog to just about every other deck out there. If Eldrazi is 40 pct there's still 60 pct left to beat you know...
Now its fairly easy to build to beat the Eldrazi if they are the majority in your meta.
Ha! Haha! Hahahaha! If only we told that to all those thousands of people who got destroyed in every major event since February!
Its because the player base is upset with Wotc actions and refuse to adapt. The player base allowed the format to be the way it was the last 3 months. Look at the players that actually care about the format and didnt play Eldrazi and how good they did during that same time frame. Eldrazi did not win every event. There was a small contingency actually adapting and trying to beat the Eldrazi. Then there was those pissed they had to actually think and adapt to a new deck and said screw it, this format sucks, and kept pounding their old deck against a wall complaining about the Eldrazi.
It was the Magic version of taking the ball and going home and not caring.
How they didn't want to adapt to it when 99% of the deck gets crushed by Eldrazi no matter what you do. The decks is broken and the fact that people didn't (couldn't) adapt to it doesn't change that. Only a few decks do good against it (Abzan Company, Living End, Affinity and maybe some more) while the rest doesn't and many decks are unplayable because of this (GBx and other interactive decks) or much weaker and all this just because of one deck. I don't know how can you justify that. It should be nerfed no matter what and this is the only thing that would help format from getting out of the hell.
Yes the Eldrazi narrowed deck selection, but the deck was not unbeatable.
I watched guys that grind the PT, have PT points and are very good deck builders and players build decks using cards some would never think of using against the Eldrazi and have a lopsided positive match up like 60-40, 65-35, and refuse to take those decks to high level events because they were pissed at what Wotc did to the format.
So we will see how things play out.
How is it possible for a secret group of players to have this tech while the top ranked players in the world never discovered it? I mean we saw the actual best players in the world stick to a couple meta decks or Eldrazi and with 3 GPs we saw total dominance of Eldrazi. I find that highly highly dubious.
Ha! Haha! Hahahaha! If only we told that to all those thousands of people who got destroyed in every major event since February!
Its because the player base is upset with Wotc actions and refuse to adapt. The player base allowed the format to be the way it was the last 3 months. Look at the players that actually care about the format and didnt play Eldrazi and how good they did during that same time frame. Eldrazi did not win every event. There was a small contingency actually adapting and trying to beat the Eldrazi. Then there was those pissed they had to actually think and adapt to a new deck and said screw it, this format sucks, and kept pounding their old deck against a wall complaining about the Eldrazi.
It was the Magic version of taking the ball and going home and not caring.
How they didn't want to adapt to it when 99% of the deck gets crushed by Eldrazi no matter what you do. The decks is broken and the fact that people didn't (couldn't) adapt to it doesn't change that. Only a few decks do good against it (Abzan Company, Living End, Affinity and maybe some more) while the rest doesn't and many decks are unplayable because of this (GBx and other interactive decks) or much weaker and all this just because of one deck. I don't know how can you justify that. It should be nerfed no matter what and this is the only thing that would help format from getting out of the hell.
Yes the Eldrazi narrowed deck selection, but the deck was not unbeatable.
I watched guys that grind the PT, have PT points and are very good deck builders and players build decks using cards some would never think of using against the Eldrazi and have a lopsided positive match up like 60-40, 65-35, and refuse to take those decks to high level events because they were pissed at what Wotc did to the format.
So we will see how things play out.
How is it possible for a secret group of players to have this tech while the top ranked players in the world never discovered it? I mean we saw the actual best players in the world stick to a couple meta decks or Eldrazi and with 3 GPs we saw total dominance of Eldrazi. I find that highly highly dubious.
The reputation I've heard is that the pros barely prepare for Modern (at least people like Gerry Thompson and Luis Scott-Vargas--correct me if I'm wrong for those 2 people). Exceptions include Patrick Dickmann (the Tempo Twin master), Reid Duke (he doesn't pick the same meta deck every time, at least), Lee Shi Tian (he tends to stick to stuff like Scapeshift, but he swaps decks, too), Jeff Hoogland (Kiki Chord looks like something he's worked hard on), and (as far as I can tell) Sam Pardee (he was on Melira Pod until it got banned).
Note that one of the 3 GPs you mentioned, GP Detroit 2016, was won outright by Melira Company. Ralph Betesh, the winner, even mentioned that he "didn't lose a match to White-Blue Eldrazi on MTGO in the past week of testing" in the event's Top 8 Profiles page.
What with everyone and their dog who's on Melira Company in MTGO keeping 1 Intrepid Hero in their sideboard, I can completely believe what bocephus is saying in the post you quoted.
Ha! Haha! Hahahaha! If only we told that to all those thousands of people who got destroyed in every major event since February!
Its because the player base is upset with Wotc actions and refuse to adapt. The player base allowed the format to be the way it was the last 3 months. Look at the players that actually care about the format and didnt play Eldrazi and how good they did during that same time frame. Eldrazi did not win every event. There was a small contingency actually adapting and trying to beat the Eldrazi. Then there was those pissed they had to actually think and adapt to a new deck and said screw it, this format sucks, and kept pounding their old deck against a wall complaining about the Eldrazi.
It was the Magic version of taking the ball and going home and not caring.
How they didn't want to adapt to it when 99% of the deck gets crushed by Eldrazi no matter what you do. The decks is broken and the fact that people didn't (couldn't) adapt to it doesn't change that. Only a few decks do good against it (Abzan Company, Living End, Affinity and maybe some more) while the rest doesn't and many decks are unplayable because of this (GBx and other interactive decks) or much weaker and all this just because of one deck. I don't know how can you justify that. It should be nerfed no matter what and this is the only thing that would help format from getting out of the hell.
Yes the Eldrazi narrowed deck selection, but the deck was not unbeatable.
I watched guys that grind the PT, have PT points and are very good deck builders and players build decks using cards some would never think of using against the Eldrazi and have a lopsided positive match up like 60-40, 65-35, and refuse to take those decks to high level events because they were pissed at what Wotc did to the format.
So we will see how things play out.
How is it possible for a secret group of players to have this tech while the top ranked players in the world never discovered it? I mean we saw the actual best players in the world stick to a couple meta decks or Eldrazi and with 3 GPs we saw total dominance of Eldrazi. I find that highly highly dubious.
Its not a secret group of players, its behind the scenes, the things most people dont see of those players they watch on the weekends on Twitch.
As its been said, most pros dont care about Modern and dont test. They grab what they feel comfortable with or, the deck of the month. But there are some higher level players that love Modern and do some work behind the scenes.
No deck is unbeatable, its the player base that decides what we see. That has been the case the last 3 months with part of the player base being disgruntled. They are trying to prove something or show something to Wotc. We will see if it worked in less then a day.
Its because the player base is upset with Wotc actions and refuse to adapt. The player base allowed the format to be the way it was the last 3 months. Look at the players that actually care about the format and didnt play Eldrazi and how good they did during that same time frame. Eldrazi did not win every event. There was a small contingency actually adapting and trying to beat the Eldrazi. Then there was those pissed they had to actually think and adapt to a new deck and said screw it, this format sucks, and kept pounding their old deck against a wall complaining about the Eldrazi.
It was the Magic version of taking the ball and going home and not caring.
How they didn't want to adapt to it when 99% of the deck gets crushed by Eldrazi no matter what you do. The decks is broken and the fact that people didn't (couldn't) adapt to it doesn't change that. Only a few decks do good against it (Abzan Company, Living End, Affinity and maybe some more) while the rest doesn't and many decks are unplayable because of this (GBx and other interactive decks) or much weaker and all this just because of one deck. I don't know how can you justify that. It should be nerfed no matter what and this is the only thing that would help format from getting out of the hell.
Yes the Eldrazi narrowed deck selection, but the deck was not unbeatable.
I watched guys that grind the PT, have PT points and are very good deck builders and players build decks using cards some would never think of using against the Eldrazi and have a lopsided positive match up like 60-40, 65-35, and refuse to take those decks to high level events because they were pissed at what Wotc did to the format.
So we will see how things play out.
How is it possible for a secret group of players to have this tech while the top ranked players in the world never discovered it? I mean we saw the actual best players in the world stick to a couple meta decks or Eldrazi and with 3 GPs we saw total dominance of Eldrazi. I find that highly highly dubious.
Its not a secret group of players, its behind the scenes, the things most people dont see of those players they watch on the weekends on Twitch.
As its been said, most pros dont care about Modern and dont test. They grab what they feel comfortable with or, the deck of the month. But there are some higher level players that love Modern and do some work behind the scenes.
it's also very telling (and a frequent occurrence) when pros play a deck that is several iterations behind the current accepted "tuned" version. many times i've seen a pro take a rogue/tier 2 deck to a ProTour or GP with an untuned janky version of something that's much more capable - for instance, the Elves deck was a frequent offender in this regard, with Pros playing very sub-optimal lists at the highest level events, and suffering as a result, without the correct sideboard tech for their metagame, or without the useful singletons that help the deck overcome format staples like Jund or Affinity.
this goes beyond a player's personal preference for individual card choices. this is genuinely not knowing, testing and ignoring the community's efforts to improve decks.
and for the most part it goes unnoticed! it's only the people that play those specific decks who pick up on it - and you'll see them commenting on twitch streams or on this very forum - "why is X pro-player running an outdated version of our deck?"
happens all the time.
it wouldn't surprise me if a major part of the reason for the (frankly ridiculous) uptake of Eldrazi decks amongst the pro community was because they just didn't have any better ideas, and don't know the format well enough to devise good ways to beat the eldrazi decks.
for the record, there's plenty of decks that can routinely destroy Eldrazi, almost regardless of their specific deck makeup. they just aren't the "old guard" same-old tier 1 decks that we've had for years, so people are like "ermahgerd the established tier 1 decks aren't top-dog anymore, the world is crashing down".
I've seen some great finishes and incredible win-rates against Eldrazi from at least 8 different decks in the last month. really though, the community-at-large just hasn't chosen to actually adapt, save for a few individuals. the metagame percentages look horrific (well.... they ARE horrific) but that doesn't mean the Eldrazi decks are actually unbeatable.
shame, really. but hey. i guess there's a monetary implication as well, so i can't grumble that thousands of people chose to stick with their same old decks regardless of the metagame. the associated costs would be unfair to expect from most people - modern decks are hella expensive.
I'm excited for tomorrow. We'll see a piece of the Eldrazi deck hit the can, and then the people that want to still make the deck work can have a go at some serious brewing and testing - and everyone else can go back to business as usual.
It was the fault of players that are not testing or care about Modern. They just pick up the deck of the month and go to town. The is lazy. As been mentioned, how many times have you seen a pro or higher level player, playing a deck that is so sub optimal in the format you just scratch your head? The past 3 months has magnified that and uncovered what many have been saying. The majority of pro players do not test or even build for Modern. There is a very small set of players building and testing and the rest of the players are using their work to play Modern.
No deck is unbeatable. If you know you are going to be playing a deck or a version of a deck multiple times in a 2 day event, come prepared.
Overall, Eldrazi is worse by a huge margin. At the local level, however, Cruise was worse where I live. I saw a lot more Cruise Delver then than I'm seeing Eldrazi now because the Eldrazi deck is a huge investment that everyone thinks will be banned, while in the Cruise era so many people had Delver cards and basically just needed to get Treasure Cruise and Thought Scour, go wild for a few months and then lose no investment at all on the upcoming ban.
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When I hit my 3000 post mark, I'm gone for good.
Stay reasonable, be mindful of your expectations and don't feed the trolls.
Overall, Eldrazi is worse by a huge margin. At the local level, however, Cruise was worse where I live. I saw a lot more Cruise Delver then than I'm seeing Eldrazi now because the Eldrazi deck is a huge investment that everyone thinks will be banned, while in the Cruise era so many people had Delver cards and basically just needed to get Treasure Cruise and Thought Scour, go wild for a few months and then lose no investment at all on the upcoming ban.
The lands for Cruise Delver were quite expensive for the good version, that's why you often saw Grixis as the budget list because you could play 8 Khans fetches while UR Delver needed Tarns+Mistys.
No deck is unbeatable. If you know you are going to be playing a deck or a version of a deck multiple times in a 2 day event, come prepared.
So like Caw-Blade?
When you make comments like this, I understand that you have no idea what you are talking about.
Standard, a format with maybe 3000 cards in it and doesnt have answers for everything, compared to a format with 10,000 or more available to deck builder and player.
You are comparing apples and cars and saying its the same. Which it isnt by a long run.
I have admitted we will see a ban from Eldrazi simply because of the player base crying over the deck. I dont know what more you want.
No deck is unbeatable. If you know you are going to be playing a deck or a version of a deck multiple times in a 2 day event, come prepared.
So like Caw-Blade?
When you make comments like this, I understand that you have no idea what you are talking about.
Standard, a format with maybe 3000 cards in it and doesnt have answers for everything, compared to a format with 10,000 or more available to deck builder and player.
You are comparing apples and cars and saying its the same. Which it isnt by a long run.
I have admitted we will see a ban from Eldrazi simply because of the player base crying over the deck. I dont know what more you want.
Don't you find it odd then that in a pool of tens of thousands of cards, thousands and thousands of players haven't been able to find something to beat Eldrazi effectively, since there is essentially no hate for fast, powerful, efficient creatures and land destruction or Blood Moons are usually too slow to be relevant?
Maybe this line of thinking comes from your local meta, where Eldrazi is not 30-50% of the meta, and you don't face it every other match like people do online. The deck is miserable to play against because it just adapts to any deck that is good against it while playing it's own hate cards for those decks.
To even imply that the Eldrazi dominance is remotely due to "lazy players failing to adapt" is both insulting to players and completely ignorant of Eldrazi's unprecedented numbers in every measurable category.
It is WORSE than Caw-Blade BECAUSE the card pool IS so large, and yet no answer is in sight.
No deck is unbeatable. If you know you are going to be playing a deck or a version of a deck multiple times in a 2 day event, come prepared.
So like Caw-Blade?
When you make comments like this, I understand that you have no idea what you are talking about.
Standard, a format with maybe 3000 cards in it and doesnt have answers for everything, compared to a format with 10,000 or more available to deck builder and player.
You are comparing apples and cars and saying its the same. Which it isnt by a long run.
I have admitted we will see a ban from Eldrazi simply because of the player base crying over the deck. I dont know what more you want.
Don't you find it odd then that in a pool of tens of thousands of cards, thousands and thousands of players haven't been able to find something to beat Eldrazi effectively, since there is essentially no hate for fast, powerful, efficient creatures and land destruction or Blood Moons are usually too slow to be relevant?
Maybe this line of thinking comes from your local meta, where Eldrazi is not 30-50% of the meta, and you don't face it every other match like people do online. The deck is miserable to play against because it just adapts to any deck that is good against it while playing it's own hate cards for those decks.
To even imply that the Eldrazi dominance is remotely due to "lazy players failing to adapt" is both insulting to players and completely ignorant of Eldrazi's unprecedented numbers in every measurable category.
It is WORSE than Caw-Blade BECAUSE the card pool IS so large, and yet no answer is in sight.
Not when the majority of the player base that is playing Twitch events dont care or test for their events. Saying the player base is lazy isnt insulting, its the truth. Sorry you cant handle the truth. As I have said, those that do care, and do test, and enjoy the format have built decks to beat the Eldrazi. Its a message to Wotc from the player base. Now the ball is in Wotc's court. I hope with everyone on the ban wagon they ban like 6 cards tomorrow. Then we can hear how Wotc screwed up again. I have said it multiple times, Wotc is damned if they do, damned if they dont.
@bocephus
If it isn't the "old guard," can you just name what deck(s) beat Eldrazi then? Along with card choices and whatnot. I don't follow modern enough to know what's new tech these days.
Reprints the one card that people point to when saying that art objectifies women.
Well done Wizards.
Liliana does not objectify women in any way at all. We have gotten to a point in our society that every single picture of a women must be objectifying a women in some negative way......blah blah blah.. That is not the case. (((Sarcasm)))Picture of a girl drinking a milk shake, must be sex related and putting women down, picture of girl sitting on a beach, picture of a girl driving a car, picture of a girl on the moon at a new space station.)))
You have a picture of an attractive strong power women who girls dress up as for anime conventions. What more do you want? The picture is fine, happy to see a reprint. Sick of of seeing people claim that everything in existence must be putting women down. Then all I have to do is replace the word "women" with anything else to get the same mentality; fish, cats, arabs, blacks, jews, men, environment, whites, chinese, old people, etc. It doesn't matter what word I put in. Stop sucking life out of everything man. That artwork of her is awesome. Stop putting stuff down man. Just stop. If the picture was really as negative as you claim she would totally nude, in a kitchen, making sandwiches and giving blow jobs. Her abilities would be horrible as well. +1 do nothing -2 do nothing -6 do nothing. Instead liliana of the veil is an amazing planeswalker comparable to jace, the mind sculpter with great art to appreciate.
My suggestion listen to some comedy radio for a while, pandora is free, youtube is free there is something out there for you. ***** go make fun of somebody. The whole world is so serious and campaigning for some cause, or someones rights, everything is a hate crime, racist, sexist. blah blah blah.
"O no mcdonalds must be slandering a hate crime against skinny people every time they make a big mac." hahaha jeeze You're just someone perpetuating another groups negative perspective that they've made you believe is correct. Look at the picture for a hour and tell me what's wrong with it? I don't see anything.
I have heard vague rumors of a moustache-dispensing vending machine in a distant laundromat, across the street from a tattoo parlor. However, this information is shaky, and time is of the essence.
Wow. People are still defending Eldrazi? That deck gave us the most compelling statistical indictment of a strategy in Modern history: just look at every single metagame number from the Pro Tour through the GP weekend until today. Wizards has banned far less offensive violators on a similar timeline after a new set created format imbalance, and Eldrazi's death was inevitable the moment the GP weekend finished.
Every busted deck can be beaten. I played an anti-Affinity deck in 2005 with maindecked Oxidizes and Molder Slugs, among others, and had great Affinity matchups. The metagame was still hideously warped, and the 2005 Affinity bans were good ones. By the same measures, the Eldrazi ban(s) tomorrow will be good ones too. Even the anti-Eldrazi decks didn't always beat Eldrazi, and the format devolved into Eldrazi and anti-Eldrazi on a scale far in excess of anything in Modern's history.
As a whole, this isn't a "Wizards is damned if they do, damned if they don't" scenario. This is a "Wizards broke it and Wizards is going to fix it to the widespread joy of the player-base" scenario. Not everyone will be happy, but in this case, those who are unhappy about Eldrazi bans are either ignorant of what happened in the last few months or advancing some kind of personal or ulterior agenda that has nothing to do with widespread format health.
Wow. People are still defending Eldrazi? That deck gave us the most compelling statistical indictment of a strategy in Modern history: just look at every single metagame number from the Pro Tour through the GP weekend until today. Wizards has banned far less offensive violators on a similar timeline after a new set created format imbalance, and Eldrazi's death was inevitable the moment the GP weekend finished.
Every busted deck can be beaten. I played an anti-Affinity deck in 2005 with maindecked Oxidizes and Molder Slugs, among others, and had great Affinity matchups. The metagame was still hideously warped, and the 2005 Affinity bans were good ones. By the same measures, the Eldrazi ban(s) tomorrow will be good ones too. Even the anti-Eldrazi decks didn't always beat Eldrazi, and the format devolved into Eldrazi and anti-Eldrazi on a scale far in excess of anything in Modern's history.
As a whole, this isn't a "Wizards is damned if they do, damned if they don't" scenario. This is a "Wizards broke it and Wizards is going to fix it to the widespread joy of the player-base" scenario. Not everyone will be happy, but in this case, those who are unhappy about Eldrazi bans are either ignorant of what happened in the last few months or advancing some kind of personal or ulterior agenda that has nothing to do with widespread format health.
I made the case for Treasure Cruise being the most impactful at a grass-roots level (completely disregarding high-level events). TC was very prolific. as we've seen and discussed before, many people have avoided buying into the Eldrazi deck (most likely cause - impending bans) when they otherwise would have dived in. there are many other sideline factors also at work which have resulted in a much lower amount of Eldrazi being played at local game store events.
I wasn't defending the deck at all, and I 100% agree with it seeing a ban at this point - although some commenters here got completely the wrong end of the stick of what I was saying, and started arguing with me as if I was arguing for no bans/defending the deck. that slew of comments is what you may have caught the tail end of. rest assured I think everyone here is one the same page that the deck needs a good ol' nerf.
of course, on MTGO and at high-level events, we have seen the Eldrazi strut their stuff pretty heavily, and in that instance again I'm sure we all agree which metagame is the more broken.
i wish people would read entire comments before going blue in the face and arguing against something I didn't actually say, lol. it's a bit perplexing.
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Modern: G Tron, Vannifar, Jund, Druid/Vizier combo, Humans, Eldrazi Stompy (Serum Powder), Amulet, Grishoalbrand, Breach Titan, Turns, Eternal Command, As Foretold Living End, Elves, Cheerios, RUG Scapeshift
No deck is unbeatable. If you know you are going to be playing a deck or a version of a deck multiple times in a 2 day event, come prepared.
So like Caw-Blade?
When you make comments like this, I understand that you have no idea what you are talking about.
Standard, a format with maybe 3000 cards in it and doesnt have answers for everything, compared to a format with 10,000 or more available to deck builder and player.
You are comparing apples and cars and saying its the same. Which it isnt by a long run.
I have admitted we will see a ban from Eldrazi simply because of the player base crying over the deck. I dont know what more you want.
Don't you find it odd then that in a pool of tens of thousands of cards, thousands and thousands of players haven't been able to find something to beat Eldrazi effectively, since there is essentially no hate for fast, powerful, efficient creatures and land destruction or Blood Moons are usually too slow to be relevant?
Maybe this line of thinking comes from your local meta, where Eldrazi is not 30-50% of the meta, and you don't face it every other match like people do online. The deck is miserable to play against because it just adapts to any deck that is good against it while playing it's own hate cards for those decks.
To even imply that the Eldrazi dominance is remotely due to "lazy players failing to adapt" is both insulting to players and completely ignorant of Eldrazi's unprecedented numbers in every measurable category.
It is WORSE than Caw-Blade BECAUSE the card pool IS so large, and yet no answer is in sight.
Not when the majority of the player base that is playing Twitch events dont care or test for their events. Saying the player base is lazy isnt insulting, its the truth. Sorry you cant handle the truth. As I have said, those that do care, and do test, and enjoy the format have built decks to beat the Eldrazi. Its a message to Wotc from the player base. Now the ball is in Wotc's court. I hope with everyone on the ban wagon they ban like 6 cards tomorrow. Then we can hear how Wotc screwed up again. I have said it multiple times, Wotc is damned if they do, damned if they dont.
So as I understand it, your current stance is Twin ban=good for modern, and Eldrazi ban= bad for modern.
Well I guess you can say we have both sides of the arguement at least.
I think that they should leave everything as is right now and - wait till the next set to ban eldrazi or the one after - especially if Emrakul is on Innistrad.
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I don't see how anyone can say that a 40% metagame share with basically 80% of pros playing the deck at events is fine. It's by far the most warped the Modern meta has ever been.
I've played Eldrazi precisely once, and I won, even through a Eye > Mimic > Mimic opening. I changed my sideboard a bit if I was expecting the deck at my FNMs. I'm fine with all that. But I can also zoom out and look at the big picture, which is that there is a core of 30ish cards played by 40% of meta at large, and that sucks and needs to be fixed.
EDH: UGEdric
Pauper: UR Delver
Modern: UGR Delver
Draft my cube: Eric's 390 Unpowered
I honestly believe this is due to players knowing it's going to be banned because the deck is so absurdly broken and so insanely prevalent at the GP/SCG/PT level. There was just no reason to invest in it; Eye of Ugin's buylist price started dropping about 1 week after the PT finished and now a card I sold for $35 per copy in the days following the PT can now be purchased for a laughably $7-$10. That's the clearest indicator that people just aren't buying in because they know a ban is around the corner.
Also, I would say that I knew that Treasure Cruise would be banned. Drawing 3 cards, even at Sorcery speed for U is just too good. Pod surprised me, but I have to acknowledge that Siege Rhino pushed it past the edge. I just didn't realize that good players playing a Tier 1 deck would cause it to be banned.
*I truly expected to be playing at insanely "small attendance" tournaments during this Eldrazi "Summer."
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)I'm a little less upset at wizards though because it would have been a bit more difficult to spend the time in testing to figure out this deck could be potentially problematic. But treasure cruise was a just a clear indication that wizards spends next to zero time playtesting new cards in modern/legacy. I still don't understand why wizards hasn't gone to the modern and legacy communities to get help in this regard. We all know damn well there are people on this forum that are perfectly capable of evaluating cards reasonably and will actually spend the time to do so...for free, even. Modern would have a lot of problems solved by now if they actually had people doing research and playtesting things providing actual data that isn't from MTGO which is terribly skewed.
Modern Junk Primer
Legacy ANT Primer
L1 Judge
I can't argue with this since I know you are one of the Bloom players here.
I just thought I remembered the meta being something like this.
1. UR Delver - 20%
2. Rhino Pod - 18%
3. Affinity - 8%
4. Bloom Titan - 6%
5. Scapeshift - 5%
6. RG Breach - admittedly not played much, I think 3%, but I felt like it was a good deck vs. Delver and Pod.
Other than these times, I felt like Bloom was always played at 5% or less of the overall meta. I could be mistaken, so I hope someone can dig up some numbers. Yes, I'm lazy.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)Yes the Eldrazi narrowed deck selection, but the deck was not unbeatable.
I watched guys that grind the PT, have PT points and are very good deck builders and players build decks using cards some would never think of using against the Eldrazi and have a lopsided positive match up like 60-40, 65-35, and refuse to take those decks to high level events because they were pissed at what Wotc did to the format.
So we will see how things play out.
Well, anyone could build decks like that. Problem is you now are a dog to just about every other deck out there. If Eldrazi is 40 pct there's still 60 pct left to beat you know...
How is it possible for a secret group of players to have this tech while the top ranked players in the world never discovered it? I mean we saw the actual best players in the world stick to a couple meta decks or Eldrazi and with 3 GPs we saw total dominance of Eldrazi. I find that highly highly dubious.
The reputation I've heard is that the pros barely prepare for Modern (at least people like Gerry Thompson and Luis Scott-Vargas--correct me if I'm wrong for those 2 people). Exceptions include Patrick Dickmann (the Tempo Twin master), Reid Duke (he doesn't pick the same meta deck every time, at least), Lee Shi Tian (he tends to stick to stuff like Scapeshift, but he swaps decks, too), Jeff Hoogland (Kiki Chord looks like something he's worked hard on), and (as far as I can tell) Sam Pardee (he was on Melira Pod until it got banned).
Note that one of the 3 GPs you mentioned, GP Detroit 2016, was won outright by Melira Company. Ralph Betesh, the winner, even mentioned that he "didn't lose a match to White-Blue Eldrazi on MTGO in the past week of testing" in the event's Top 8 Profiles page.
What with everyone and their dog who's on Melira Company in MTGO keeping 1 Intrepid Hero in their sideboard, I can completely believe what bocephus is saying in the post you quoted.
Its not a secret group of players, its behind the scenes, the things most people dont see of those players they watch on the weekends on Twitch.
As its been said, most pros dont care about Modern and dont test. They grab what they feel comfortable with or, the deck of the month. But there are some higher level players that love Modern and do some work behind the scenes.
No deck is unbeatable, its the player base that decides what we see. That has been the case the last 3 months with part of the player base being disgruntled. They are trying to prove something or show something to Wotc. We will see if it worked in less then a day.
it's also very telling (and a frequent occurrence) when pros play a deck that is several iterations behind the current accepted "tuned" version. many times i've seen a pro take a rogue/tier 2 deck to a ProTour or GP with an untuned janky version of something that's much more capable - for instance, the Elves deck was a frequent offender in this regard, with Pros playing very sub-optimal lists at the highest level events, and suffering as a result, without the correct sideboard tech for their metagame, or without the useful singletons that help the deck overcome format staples like Jund or Affinity.
this goes beyond a player's personal preference for individual card choices. this is genuinely not knowing, testing and ignoring the community's efforts to improve decks.
and for the most part it goes unnoticed! it's only the people that play those specific decks who pick up on it - and you'll see them commenting on twitch streams or on this very forum - "why is X pro-player running an outdated version of our deck?"
happens all the time.
it wouldn't surprise me if a major part of the reason for the (frankly ridiculous) uptake of Eldrazi decks amongst the pro community was because they just didn't have any better ideas, and don't know the format well enough to devise good ways to beat the eldrazi decks.
for the record, there's plenty of decks that can routinely destroy Eldrazi, almost regardless of their specific deck makeup. they just aren't the "old guard" same-old tier 1 decks that we've had for years, so people are like "ermahgerd the established tier 1 decks aren't top-dog anymore, the world is crashing down".
I've seen some great finishes and incredible win-rates against Eldrazi from at least 8 different decks in the last month. really though, the community-at-large just hasn't chosen to actually adapt, save for a few individuals. the metagame percentages look horrific (well.... they ARE horrific) but that doesn't mean the Eldrazi decks are actually unbeatable.
shame, really. but hey. i guess there's a monetary implication as well, so i can't grumble that thousands of people chose to stick with their same old decks regardless of the metagame. the associated costs would be unfair to expect from most people - modern decks are hella expensive.
I'm excited for tomorrow. We'll see a piece of the Eldrazi deck hit the can, and then the people that want to still make the deck work can have a go at some serious brewing and testing - and everyone else can go back to business as usual.
bring on the bans!
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
No deck is unbeatable. If you know you are going to be playing a deck or a version of a deck multiple times in a 2 day event, come prepared.
So like Caw-Blade?
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
Stay reasonable, be mindful of your expectations and don't feed the trolls.
Doomsdayin'
The lands for Cruise Delver were quite expensive for the good version, that's why you often saw Grixis as the budget list because you could play 8 Khans fetches while UR Delver needed Tarns+Mistys.
When you make comments like this, I understand that you have no idea what you are talking about.
Standard, a format with maybe 3000 cards in it and doesnt have answers for everything, compared to a format with 10,000 or more available to deck builder and player.
You are comparing apples and cars and saying its the same. Which it isnt by a long run.
I have admitted we will see a ban from Eldrazi simply because of the player base crying over the deck. I dont know what more you want.
Don't you find it odd then that in a pool of tens of thousands of cards, thousands and thousands of players haven't been able to find something to beat Eldrazi effectively, since there is essentially no hate for fast, powerful, efficient creatures and land destruction or Blood Moons are usually too slow to be relevant?
Maybe this line of thinking comes from your local meta, where Eldrazi is not 30-50% of the meta, and you don't face it every other match like people do online. The deck is miserable to play against because it just adapts to any deck that is good against it while playing it's own hate cards for those decks.
To even imply that the Eldrazi dominance is remotely due to "lazy players failing to adapt" is both insulting to players and completely ignorant of Eldrazi's unprecedented numbers in every measurable category.
It is WORSE than Caw-Blade BECAUSE the card pool IS so large, and yet no answer is in sight.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
Not when the majority of the player base that is playing Twitch events dont care or test for their events. Saying the player base is lazy isnt insulting, its the truth. Sorry you cant handle the truth. As I have said, those that do care, and do test, and enjoy the format have built decks to beat the Eldrazi. Its a message to Wotc from the player base. Now the ball is in Wotc's court. I hope with everyone on the ban wagon they ban like 6 cards tomorrow. Then we can hear how Wotc screwed up again. I have said it multiple times, Wotc is damned if they do, damned if they dont.
If it isn't the "old guard," can you just name what deck(s) beat Eldrazi then? Along with card choices and whatnot. I don't follow modern enough to know what's new tech these days.
Every busted deck can be beaten. I played an anti-Affinity deck in 2005 with maindecked Oxidizes and Molder Slugs, among others, and had great Affinity matchups. The metagame was still hideously warped, and the 2005 Affinity bans were good ones. By the same measures, the Eldrazi ban(s) tomorrow will be good ones too. Even the anti-Eldrazi decks didn't always beat Eldrazi, and the format devolved into Eldrazi and anti-Eldrazi on a scale far in excess of anything in Modern's history.
As a whole, this isn't a "Wizards is damned if they do, damned if they don't" scenario. This is a "Wizards broke it and Wizards is going to fix it to the widespread joy of the player-base" scenario. Not everyone will be happy, but in this case, those who are unhappy about Eldrazi bans are either ignorant of what happened in the last few months or advancing some kind of personal or ulterior agenda that has nothing to do with widespread format health.
I made the case for Treasure Cruise being the most impactful at a grass-roots level (completely disregarding high-level events). TC was very prolific. as we've seen and discussed before, many people have avoided buying into the Eldrazi deck (most likely cause - impending bans) when they otherwise would have dived in. there are many other sideline factors also at work which have resulted in a much lower amount of Eldrazi being played at local game store events.
I wasn't defending the deck at all, and I 100% agree with it seeing a ban at this point - although some commenters here got completely the wrong end of the stick of what I was saying, and started arguing with me as if I was arguing for no bans/defending the deck. that slew of comments is what you may have caught the tail end of. rest assured I think everyone here is one the same page that the deck needs a good ol' nerf.
of course, on MTGO and at high-level events, we have seen the Eldrazi strut their stuff pretty heavily, and in that instance again I'm sure we all agree which metagame is the more broken.
i wish people would read entire comments before going blue in the face and arguing against something I didn't actually say, lol. it's a bit perplexing.
It actually does incredible!
UWR Control/Midrange/Delver
UWR TwinMiss youGBWJunk (still semi-budget; 3 tarmo only)
GWAura Hexproof
GWHatebears
So as I understand it, your current stance is Twin ban=good for modern, and Eldrazi ban= bad for modern.
Well I guess you can say we have both sides of the arguement at least.
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