A great amount of people who play MTGO have no issue with it, and the people who do are a vocal minority. Just because you don't like MTGO doesn't mean it's not working.
Don't like the Modern banned list? We won't do anything.
Look around the forums and tell me how many people actually AGREE that the MBL is in a bad spot right now. It won't be 100% of the people on here.
Commander has the same exact problem that Modern has since we are competing with Legacy for a ton of expensive cards. Kaalia of the Vast, a commander who is in very high demand every since she was released, has only ever been reprinted once and was $50 for the longest time.
Seriously the only card that the Commander community can guarantee to get another copy of every release is Sol Ring.
No one likes MTGO. Even the people that play it and don't complain.
MTGO is an abyssal program. They really should just start from scratch.
A great amount of people who play MTGO have no issue with it, and the people who do are a vocal minority. Just because you don't like MTGO doesn't mean it's not working.
And I wonder who these "great amount of people" who have "no issue" with MTGO are, because I don't think they exist. Maybe there's a handful of people who have no issue with MTGO, but just a handful.
It's true there's a great number of people who in spite of their issues with MTGO will put up with it (which is more a testament to the game of Magic: the Gathering than anything else, that people will put up with MTGO in order to play it). But that is very different from people who have no issues with it.
A great amount of people who play MTGO have no issue with it, and the people who do are a vocal minority. Just because you don't like MTGO doesn't mean it's not working.
And I wonder who these "great amount of people" who have "no issue" with MTGO are, because I don't think they exist. Maybe there's a handful of people who have no issue with MTGO, but just a handful.
It's true there's a great number of people who in spite of their issues with MTGO will put up with it (which is more a testament to the game of Magic: the Gathering than anything else, that people will put up with MTGO in order to play it). But that is very different from people who have no issues with it.
Actually I know a good number of people that don't have problems with it and actually enjoy it.
How do you know that bocephus? Maybe we do want the same thing?
If we all were on the same page, there would be no need for this thread.
95% of this thread is (generally) on the same page, you're the only outlier, and that's proof something is messed up because it's very rare for 95% of people to agree on anything. Take my premise that I've argued several times, Modern's problem is that it's a format where answers are better than threats. Non rotating formats need the reverse to be true, but the current design philosophy for Standard means the format can never get the needed cards. Once I've gone into the whole spiel, which I've said much more often in the past few weeks, not a single person has disagreed aside from you.
We're not all pro players that can perfectly evaluate cards, but the vast majority of us can atleast see the problems in the format once a strong argument has been made.
Modern needs several changes. Focusing on Eldrazi does a huge disservice to the argument. The deck needs a ban or two but once it's gone the real problems are still there. Banning Twin didn't help matters because it was an interactive deck that could actually compete, but even if Eldrazi were gone and Twin was still around the format is still sick.
The format is effectively missing every single goal of the format right now. It's a format that really is just Standards greatest hits, everything competitive can skirt (or outright violate) the turn 4 rule, the format itself is very narrow because linear decks are the best strategies, and due to the gatekeeper problem they can't add sufficient new cards to the format as they originally intended. Every single premise the format is supposed to be built upon is broken.
The 'we' I was talking about was not me vs you, but the player base vs Wotc.
Quote from TheDasuri »
Yes, but if the player base doesn't play the game then it dies.
People are tweeting at Forsythe letting them know they've cancelled their plans. People are letting him know they are very unhappy. IF it gets enough notice WOTC will change. They did it before when they realized design decisions were helping to drive away players, they'll do it again.
This is the one time where your "people want different things" argument that you love to bring up when being contrarian doesn't work Boce. The vast majority of players, casual to competitive, are unhappy with modern. That's big.
We will see. I am all for the player base that feels something is wrong with the format banning together to try and get something done. Be careful though. Whats stopping Wotc form pulling Modern from the PT/GP schedules? Hell, I can see Wotc cancel Detroit if the uproar is too loud. There are always more then one way to do things and sometimes people cant see the other ways until its too late. Remember Wotc didnt want Modern as a PT format, this could give them the reason to pull it for good now.
Wizards pulling Modern GPs would be horrific for them. Its one thing for them to maybe pull the PT. But to stop GPs would bother lots of people.
We don't really know what they will do is part of the problem. The last time there was a reaction as bad as it is now (and it was probably worse than I remember it) was when Mirrodin was released and affinity destroyed standard. Now it's literally a historic repeat of the same event with Eldrazi and a lot of players are leaving modern for just about everything else. Heck, there are a lot of people looking forward towards Eternal Masters right now over the next Standard block.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Would like to say everything in this thread is whiny bull, but with the price of decks being as they are, the bannings really hurt. As well as a bad meta game that has made other decks obsolete. I'm thinking they should move ban announcements to "in between sets" as opposed to how it is now. This way new releases won't train-wreck the format for too long.
Would like to say everything in this thread is whiny bull, but with the price of decks being as they are, the bannings really hurt. As well as a bad meta game that has made other decks obsolete. I'm thinking they should move ban announcements to "in between sets" as opposed to how it is now. This way new releases won't train-wreck the format for too long.
I don't think it's fair to say people are being whiny in this thread. A lot of people are passionate about Modern as a format and having this entire mess appearing right after WoTC saying they would support modern is pretty upsetting. All that recent events have proven is that WoTC doesn't know how to support modern.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
I have anecdotal evidence from alleged players, thousands, maybe millions, who agree with everything I say, and apparently that's enough to be persuasive in this thread.
How do you know that bocephus? Maybe we do want the same thing?
If we all were on the same page, there would be no need for this thread.
95% of this thread is (generally) on the same page, you're the only outlier, and that's proof something is messed up because it's very rare for 95% of people to agree on anything. Take my premise that I've argued several times, Modern's problem is that it's a format where answers are better than threats. Non rotating formats need the reverse to be true, but the current design philosophy for Standard means the format can never get the needed cards. Once I've gone into the whole spiel, which I've said much more often in the past few weeks, not a single person has disagreed aside from you.
We're not all pro players that can perfectly evaluate cards, but the vast majority of us can atleast see the problems in the format once a strong argument has been made.
Modern needs several changes. Focusing on Eldrazi does a huge disservice to the argument. The deck needs a ban or two but once it's gone the real problems are still there. Banning Twin didn't help matters because it was an interactive deck that could actually compete, but even if Eldrazi were gone and Twin was still around the format is still sick.
The format is effectively missing every single goal of the format right now. It's a format that really is just Standards greatest hits, everything competitive can skirt (or outright violate) the turn 4 rule, the format itself is very narrow because linear decks are the best strategies, and due to the gatekeeper problem they can't add sufficient new cards to the format as they originally intended. Every single premise the format is supposed to be built upon is broken.
I'm not sure what premises you're thinking of, because generally I think modern is going as promised.
How do you know that bocephus? Maybe we do want the same thing?
If we all were on the same page, there would be no need for this thread.
95% of this thread is (generally) on the same page, you're the only outlier, and that's proof something is messed up because it's very rare for 95% of people to agree on anything. Take my premise that I've argued several times, Modern's problem is that it's a format where answers are better than threats. Non rotating formats need the reverse to be true, but the current design philosophy for Standard means the format can never get the needed cards. Once I've gone into the whole spiel, which I've said much more often in the past few weeks, not a single person has disagreed aside from you.
We're not all pro players that can perfectly evaluate cards, but the vast majority of us can atleast see the problems in the format once a strong argument has been made.
Modern needs several changes. Focusing on Eldrazi does a huge disservice to the argument. The deck needs a ban or two but once it's gone the real problems are still there. Banning Twin didn't help matters because it was an interactive deck that could actually compete, but even if Eldrazi were gone and Twin was still around the format is still sick.
The format is effectively missing every single goal of the format right now. It's a format that really is just Standards greatest hits, everything competitive can skirt (or outright violate) the turn 4 rule, the format itself is very narrow because linear decks are the best strategies, and due to the gatekeeper problem they can't add sufficient new cards to the format as they originally intended. Every single premise the format is supposed to be built upon is broken.
The 'we' I was talking about was not me vs you, but the player base vs Wotc.
Quote from TheDasuri »
Yes, but if the player base doesn't play the game then it dies.
People are tweeting at Forsythe letting them know they've cancelled their plans. People are letting him know they are very unhappy. IF it gets enough notice WOTC will change. They did it before when they realized design decisions were helping to drive away players, they'll do it again.
This is the one time where your "people want different things" argument that you love to bring up when being contrarian doesn't work Boce. The vast majority of players, casual to competitive, are unhappy with modern. That's big.
We will see. I am all for the player base that feels something is wrong with the format banning together to try and get something done. Be careful though. Whats stopping Wotc form pulling Modern from the PT/GP schedules? Hell, I can see Wotc cancel Detroit if the uproar is too loud. There are always more then one way to do things and sometimes people cant see the other ways until its too late. Remember Wotc didnt want Modern as a PT format, this could give them the reason to pull it for good now.
They should pull Modern as a pro tour format. They need to do bans to make it more exciting as a marketing event but that isn't always what is the best for format health. Case in point the twin ban. While designed to increase the newness of the format it made the format more degenerate. As for pulling GP they would never do that. They would be acting like petulant children. While games can be argued to be art if no one buys your art you starve. They need to satisfy the client first.
They should pull Modern as a pro tour format. They need to do bans to make it more exciting as a marketing event [...]
Do they really need to make bans for the PT? I am sure people would have watched either way. We want to see our favourite pros play with our favourite decks. Furthermore, it's not like the meta has been stagnant, it would have been a different meta from the last modern PT even without the bans and there's always room for innovation as a few new cards from each set find their way into modern (this time the Eldrazi surely would have been a thing even with splinter twin around).
I have anecdotal evidence from alleged players, thousands, maybe millions, who agree with everything I say, and apparently that's enough to be persuasive in this thread.
Thank you! It's like this thread is full of Donald Trumps. "I've had hundreds of people tell me that the ban list is fine/broken." Gimme a break with this "evidence."
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Can you name all of the creature types with at least 20 cards? Try my Sporcle Quiz! Last Updated: 6/29/20 (Core Set 2021).
How do you know that bocephus? Maybe we do want the same thing?
If we all were on the same page, there would be no need for this thread.
95% of this thread is (generally) on the same page, you're the only outlier, and that's proof something is messed up because it's very rare for 95% of people to agree on anything. Take my premise that I've argued several times, Modern's problem is that it's a format where answers are better than threats. Non rotating formats need the reverse to be true, but the current design philosophy for Standard means the format can never get the needed cards. Once I've gone into the whole spiel, which I've said much more often in the past few weeks, not a single person has disagreed aside from you.
We're not all pro players that can perfectly evaluate cards, but the vast majority of us can atleast see the problems in the format once a strong argument has been made.
Modern needs several changes. Focusing on Eldrazi does a huge disservice to the argument. The deck needs a ban or two but once it's gone the real problems are still there. Banning Twin didn't help matters because it was an interactive deck that could actually compete, but even if Eldrazi were gone and Twin was still around the format is still sick.
The format is effectively missing every single goal of the format right now. It's a format that really is just Standards greatest hits, everything competitive can skirt (or outright violate) the turn 4 rule, the format itself is very narrow because linear decks are the best strategies, and due to the gatekeeper problem they can't add sufficient new cards to the format as they originally intended. Every single premise the format is supposed to be built upon is broken.
I'm not sure what premises you're thinking of, because generally I think modern is going as promised.
It honestly hasn't been going as promised for a very, very long time. It's just that it's been going on for so long most people have given up caring or just view what it is now as the original intent.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
A great amount of people who play MTGO have no issue with it, and the people who do are a vocal minority. Just because you don't like MTGO doesn't mean it's not working.
And I wonder who these "great amount of people" who have "no issue" with MTGO are, because I don't think they exist. Maybe there's a handful of people who have no issue with MTGO, but just a handful.
It's true there's a great number of people who in spite of their issues with MTGO will put up with it (which is more a testament to the game of Magic: the Gathering than anything else, that people will put up with MTGO in order to play it). But that is very different from people who have no issues with it.
Sad fact of the matter is that anyone who is on the forums is only a small fraction of the people who play any game.
Even if 15%, even if 50%, even if 80%, EVEN IF 99% of the people who play MTGO on this site hate it's guts, You are only a fraction of the people who play it, and the vocal majority anyway. Hence why most companies will take Forum's Feedback, but won't use it as the only source.
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Oath of the Gatewatch; the set that caused the competitive community to freak out over Basic Lands.
Actually I know a good number of people that don't have problems with it and actually enjoy it.
I don't have problems with it and do enjoy Modo.
Doesn't change that it has severe issues on my levels and really could use some fixing and improvement in many areas.
But it's really not as bad as many make it out to be, at least the new client.
To me it often seems like many tried the old client before and now hating on Modo is just the cool thing to do.
While it certainly deserves criticism, it's not as abysmal as the general (vocal) opinion makes it out to be.
That's just my view on the thing though.
Feel free to hate it, even if I find that notion rather silly. ^^
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Tired of losing to natural Tron or getting turn 2'd by Infect?
Standard infinite combos giving you a headache and the opponent always has Force of Will?
No matter the issue, there is one simple trick to solve all of your Magic problems!!
~~~To get in on the secret to eternal luck, skill and victory, just follow this link!!~~~
tl;dr people can't accept change, decide to moan on internet forums instead. Eldrazi will get banned out either on Shadows release, or on Eldritch Moon the latest. That's almost a given at this point, and threads like this are just mindless qq of people who want them banned now, which Forsythe confirmed won't happen.
I totally understand your point, and I'm generally not in favor of knee-jerk bannings either. I do, however, feel sorry for people who have to endure the next few Modern GPs before April.
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Can you name all of the creature types with at least 20 cards? Try my Sporcle Quiz! Last Updated: 6/29/20 (Core Set 2021).
I totally understand your point, and I'm generally not in favor of knee-jerk bannings either. I do, however, feel sorry for people who have to endure the next few Modern GPs before April.
It's not like they are forced to go to them.
If they don't like the meta, cancel your stuff and don't go.
Yes, "just don't do the thing you dislike" is a stupid argument, but at the moment that's all you can do, as much as that sucks.
Personally I find it more annoying that Modo is all fubar for now, and leagues are not really playable, unless you wanna metagame hard.
But at least that showed me the amazing world that is Pauper, so there's that. ^^
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Tired of losing to natural Tron or getting turn 2'd by Infect?
Standard infinite combos giving you a headache and the opponent always has Force of Will?
No matter the issue, there is one simple trick to solve all of your Magic problems!!
~~~To get in on the secret to eternal luck, skill and victory, just follow this link!!~~~
Stop nerfing decks with your bans, they are confusing to new players and professionals alike.
So they should just let, by format standards, which admittedly need to be WAY more clear and defined, broken decks run rampant and not "nerf" them, aka balance the format to a degree?
Or do you mean they should just outright break decks, instead of giving them a sliver of tier 2/3 hope?
Also how are bans confusing?
What?
Cards X, Y, Z can no longer be played, find a substitute or similar deck / play a different deck, wow very complex.
That plus the vast amount of metagame prediction and analysis done /for you/ by various websites makes bans not really confusing to anyone who knows their way around Modern.
And since most people won't be PT players, they can just wait how everything turns out before having to buy new stuff and adjust their deck to the new meta, really.
I don't get your points here at all and as they stand /strongly/ disagree. ^^
3a. You don't like the Modern Pro Tour
This confuses the community in many ways. Isn't this your second largest format? The one that is rapidly growing? Which supports many local stores, and can hold venue for people rotating out of Standard? From a business standpoint, I have no idea what goes on behind your scenes, but publicly declaring that this is your second largest format. I feel it to be sustainable to give it your second largest amount of support. One Pro Tour a year is not just a Pro Tour to us, it's a PPTQ Season, a PTQ Season, it's an FNM. Having Modern on the Pro Tour Stage, makes us want to be the next Modern Pro. You have huge high profile players that are experts in the Modern format, we want to become those people. You are taking the limelight away from them if you remove this Pro Tour. Why remove something potentially amazing from us and them? Why not help breed a new generation of professional players?
This new generation of professional players is how we relate, there is a Jon Finkel generation we all admire, but why can't we promote a Patrick Dickmann generation? There are so many aficionado, that you have already banned out of the format. Why are you continuing down this path? These are upcoming professional players with a key talent within the game, they are professional players that us newcomers can relate to.
Without a Modern Pro Tour, you wash all the support, and that untapped potential away. Not just from them, but from us.
3b. You feel banning and the Pro Tour are synergistic with each other for success
While this may or may not be true, the fact that you are in the camp of aggressively banning for a format in which you do no investment feels like a poor decision. It is also beginning to reflect among the dissent in the community. What business model, attempts to progressively degrade something that consistently grows? It seems like you have the intention to remove the thorns from a rose, but the way you are executing the situation feels like cutting down the rainforest. There have been 5 large announcements where you have banned cards and given nothing off the list back to us. It's very problematic for us as a sub-community to have top archetypes consistently banned, with no level of compensation. The printing of new powerful cards help, but they do not acknowledge or redeem the level of damage caused.
Also, you have an ideal where the Pro Tour "solves" a format. a radio podcast on Goldfish had a very strong and intelligent opinion on the matter,
I paraphrase "The community knew about the Eldrazi deck way back in December, and was a Mono Black Variant, if anything this Pro Tour held the progression of that deck into the top winning lists. Testing in secret compared to publicly held the process back."
The community has accelerated the Eldrazi deck in two weeks, into so many different varieties with no counter within the metagame, the disease is spreading. It seems insane that a company can make what is being commonly called an "artificial banning", yet there is a real problem happening right now, and you sit by without any action. The professional players did not solve the format, the community did. Stop blaming the Pro Tour for your woes.
But because that's a lazy answer, let me make more or less the same points again:
Modern doesn't ship products. Yes, it's super popular and Scg, Cfb and anyone big on magiccardmarket.com is making probably a lot of money off of it.
But does WotC get a share? Hardly.
Only a handful of Standard cards make a splash in Modern, often as metagame dependant alternatives to staples, but those aside, no one, especially not players, but not even vendors, crack packs to sell Modern cards.
So, for Wizards, having a PT that does not advertise their latest product directly makes very little sense compared to having another Standard PT.
That said, even if we don't see them as purely profitoriented capitalists, I can understand how a Modern PT can leave a bit of a sour taste in their mouth, especially if it's "just the same as last year (with a few cards different)" to someone not hugely invested in Modern.
So, in the light of the unpopular Twin banning and the potential precedence it sets for the future, I can't see how anyone is still asking to keep the Modern PT, if they don't like it being as much a big show as it is a premiere competitive Magic event.
Yes, it's really cool to see the best of the best figure out this format, and I absolutely loved the show PT:OGW was!
On the other hand, for actual playing, I much prefer a stable environment than one that changes every year. Even if it doesn't affect a personal deck, the following aggro surge (normal in new metas) and shift in match-ups can be a hassle to deal with.
Personally I MUCH prefer Modern as a "Legacy light" rather than "Big Standard" and I think, looking as past discussion on the recent bannings in particular, many here agree.
Without the Pro Tour needed bans can happen faster and "shake-up" bans can be handled a lot more lenient.
So...why keep the PT around still, if no one's really happy with it?!
If you /really/ want it to stay I'd love to also hear some advice and suggestions as to how it should be handled. What changes need to be done to please WotC /and/ the players alike?
Only asking for it to stay when it was much to our dismay just a few weeks ago, seems rather illogical.
As for the whole Eldrazi mess:
Yes, it sucks currently for anyone playing, well, huge Eldrazi and Podless Pod fans aside maybe.
But banning randomly right away seems just wrong.
I very much agree with them waiting till the official date to give them the axe, to make the right banning call and not increase ban fear by making a spontaneous, uninformed ban right away.
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Tired of losing to natural Tron or getting turn 2'd by Infect?
Standard infinite combos giving you a headache and the opponent always has Force of Will?
No matter the issue, there is one simple trick to solve all of your Magic problems!!
~~~To get in on the secret to eternal luck, skill and victory, just follow this link!!~~~
When is the community going to realize modern is a foolish and broken format? The only real draw is that it is an eternal format that was supposed to be "affordable" so you didn't have to spend 1000s of dollars on your deck and your cards would never rotate.
We'll the popularity has pushed staple prices high enuf that it's impractical for most people to have more than a deck or two. And while there is not rotation there may as well be because anytime a card becomes the premier cornerstone of the deck to beat it gets banned. It's essentially a rotation for only the best cards on a haphazard schedule.
Face it the card pool is just too big for a quality format, and it's growing every couple months. WotC has imposed this no win by turn 3 rule and banned anything that breaks it. But players will just keep finding ways to do it then complain when their deck gets nerfed. Get rid of that you say? This would be the worst thing they could do, the whole format would end up being games of completely non interacturn combo decks with the winner being whoever got to go off first.
Look I get it you don't want to spend hundreds of dollars revamping decks every year, but is this really saving you the money and headaches you had hoped when you spend a few hundred building a deck only to have its engine banned and having to start over?
You want a format that's not expensive, diverse and doesn't rotate? How about this, once-upon-a-standard, all decks are decks that would have been standard legal at some point. Anything banned in standard in its day is banned here. I've played this with my friends and while some standard environments were weaker than others but even decks from strong environments tend to be weak to decks from other formats. There is also plenty of room for innovation as your old standard decks will face decks they never had to deal with and will need to find answers from with in their associated card pool.
The only real problem with this format is that it requires more due diligence on the part of players and judges to ensure that all the cards in a particular deck we're all in standard together at some point. The easiest way to do this is to only allow those editions of cards that were in standard together or requiring at least one copy of each card be.
I'm sure the modern core will bash this but if you aren't a closed minded tool give it a try and tell me it's not loads of fun.
How do you know that bocephus? Maybe we do want the same thing?
If we all were on the same page, there would be no need for this thread.
95% of this thread is (generally) on the same page, you're the only outlier, and that's proof something is messed up because it's very rare for 95% of people to agree on anything. Take my premise that I've argued several times, Modern's problem is that it's a format where answers are better than threats. Non rotating formats need the reverse to be true, but the current design philosophy for Standard means the format can never get the needed cards. Once I've gone into the whole spiel, which I've said much more often in the past few weeks, not a single person has disagreed aside from you.
We're not all pro players that can perfectly evaluate cards, but the vast majority of us can atleast see the problems in the format once a strong argument has been made.
Modern needs several changes. Focusing on Eldrazi does a huge disservice to the argument. The deck needs a ban or two but once it's gone the real problems are still there. Banning Twin didn't help matters because it was an interactive deck that could actually compete, but even if Eldrazi were gone and Twin was still around the format is still sick.
The format is effectively missing every single goal of the format right now. It's a format that really is just Standards greatest hits, everything competitive can skirt (or outright violate) the turn 4 rule, the format itself is very narrow because linear decks are the best strategies, and due to the gatekeeper problem they can't add sufficient new cards to the format as they originally intended. Every single premise the format is supposed to be built upon is broken.
I'm not sure what premises you're thinking of, because generally I think modern is going as promised.
It honestly hasn't been going as promised for a very, very long time. It's just that it's been going on for so long most people have given up caring or just view what it is now as the original intent.
Way to elaborate. Lemme guess, "It was supposed to be a way around the reserved list! This should be closer to legacy!!111!11!1oneoneone!1!"
Who's this "we", anyway? You got a mouse in your pocket? I would play Modern every day if I had access to it. The problems are overstated: yes, one deck is too strong, but the Eldrazi vs. Eldrazi games are still very skill-testing and involve a lot of sequencing and combat math. Previously, Modern was actually too diverse: you can't plan for 20 archetypes with a 15-card sideboard.
Ideally, this format would have 4-5 well-balanced archetypes. We don't have that now, but we're moving closer to it.
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These days, some wizards are finding they have a little too much deck left at the end of their $$$.
MTG finance guy- follow me on Twitter@RichArschmann or RichardArschmann on Reddit
Pull up your stool to the rocking chair, whippersnapper, and let me tell you a tale.
When Modern first came out, we all realized that it was Wizard's solution to the withering of Legacy and Vintage under the barrage of the Reserve List (and Wizards's unwillingness to render said list irrelevant but just printing upgrades or cards filling the same niche without being functionally identical BUT I DIGRESS). And, it seemed like a fair compromise. Over time, as new cards were printed, it would look more and more like Legacy. Ten years down the line, old farts like me would probably be quite comfortable in a new non-rotating format like that.
So, I settled back to wait and see how the format would develop and blossom into one as broad and diverse as Legacy. Early on, Wizards had a choice. It made it clear that it did not want the games to end in under three turns. Okay, that's cool. But, as the format expands, powerful combos will emerge. If you want it to be slower than Legacy, you need to address them. Dark Depths. Dredge. If you're Wizards, you can address these threats in two different ways. One way is to create a card like "Force of Will" that stops early turn, all-in gambits and slows down the format. The other way is to play whack-a-mole with the Banned list to try and gut fast or oppressive decks.
They have so far opted for the latter. This is a fine decision; I disagree with the whining I'm hearing in this thread. If you want to keep the format fresh and stomp out oppressive fast strategies without giving players access to real early game control cards, then this is one way to do it. It doesn't make the format any less fun to watch. And, honestly, there's no reason to think Eldrazi is not going to get the same treatment if it keeps putting up results. A format where the Banned list is use to enforce fairness, and frequently changed, is a fine thing.
HOWEVER - it's not becoming the new Legacy that I was hoping when this first emerged. I said it's a fine decision for Wizards to control Modern using the Banned list. That's true, but it's not creating a format that I want to play in. It's not creating a place where strong decks emerge and are held in a web of strong answers, allowing dozens of archetypes to flourish. The line between a Tier 1 and Tier 2 Legacy deck is very slim, and once you hit tier 2 you can play virtually anything you want. Modern seems much simpler and less diverse -- people head for whatever linear strategy is best at the moment.
So, complain if you like, but I think Wizards' decisions are producing exactly what they want. If you don't like, it join us old folks in the REAL eternal formats.
We'll even let you use Play Test cards if you don't want to mortgage your house to buy a mana base.
My two cents from a wannabe competitive magic player that doesn't have enough time to play every big tournament because of job/wife aggro.
Modern is a fun format although it does have problems. First off, the absence of a dedicated control deck. With all these linear strategies, your going to have to design or unban something to allow this type of deck to become competitive. Your answer cannot be ban, ban, ban (unless it is clearly unhealthy). Breathe new life into the format, instead of killing off cards in search of a more diverse format. So far that has only caused the modern player grief and has set the tone of massive paranoia within the player base because their thousand dollar deck could be killed.
I for one enjoy modern and I don't really think it's that hard to fix.... I'm still going to play, well maybe not right now because of the Eldrazi uprising but I will play.... I also have faith that WOTC will figure out how to balance the format. First thing first, trap these Eldrazi's in some hedrons or something.... The current modern format reminds me of the OG Affinty standard metagame.... And that was not fun at all.
Also take my 2 cents with a grain of salt, I'm a longtime FNM hero with no significant big tournament wins but loves the game. My apology for the long post and someone sell me their Promo Gaea's Cradle and Promo Survival of the fittest I need them for my EDH deck.
No one likes MTGO. Even the people that play it and don't complain.
MTGO is an abyssal program. They really should just start from scratch.
It's true there's a great number of people who in spite of their issues with MTGO will put up with it (which is more a testament to the game of Magic: the Gathering than anything else, that people will put up with MTGO in order to play it). But that is very different from people who have no issues with it.
Actually I know a good number of people that don't have problems with it and actually enjoy it.
The 'we' I was talking about was not me vs you, but the player base vs Wotc.
We will see. I am all for the player base that feels something is wrong with the format banning together to try and get something done. Be careful though. Whats stopping Wotc form pulling Modern from the PT/GP schedules? Hell, I can see Wotc cancel Detroit if the uproar is too loud. There are always more then one way to do things and sometimes people cant see the other ways until its too late. Remember Wotc didnt want Modern as a PT format, this could give them the reason to pull it for good now.
Modern:
UWUW TronUW
Legacy:
WDeath N TaxesW
CEldrazi C
If you couldn't tell I hate greedy blue decks.
Vintage
WWhite Trash
RGTron
UGInfect
URStorm
WUBRAd Nauseam
BRGrishoalbrand
URGScapeshift
WBGAbzan Company
WUBRGAmulet Titan
BRGLiving End
WGBogles
We don't really know what they will do is part of the problem. The last time there was a reaction as bad as it is now (and it was probably worse than I remember it) was when Mirrodin was released and affinity destroyed standard. Now it's literally a historic repeat of the same event with Eldrazi and a lot of players are leaving modern for just about everything else. Heck, there are a lot of people looking forward towards Eternal Masters right now over the next Standard block.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
I don't think it's fair to say people are being whiny in this thread. A lot of people are passionate about Modern as a format and having this entire mess appearing right after WoTC saying they would support modern is pretty upsetting. All that recent events have proven is that WoTC doesn't know how to support modern.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
I'm not sure what premises you're thinking of, because generally I think modern is going as promised.
They should pull Modern as a pro tour format. They need to do bans to make it more exciting as a marketing event but that isn't always what is the best for format health. Case in point the twin ban. While designed to increase the newness of the format it made the format more degenerate. As for pulling GP they would never do that. They would be acting like petulant children. While games can be argued to be art if no one buys your art you starve. They need to satisfy the client first.
Do they really need to make bans for the PT? I am sure people would have watched either way. We want to see our favourite pros play with our favourite decks. Furthermore, it's not like the meta has been stagnant, it would have been a different meta from the last modern PT even without the bans and there's always room for innovation as a few new cards from each set find their way into modern (this time the Eldrazi surely would have been a thing even with splinter twin around).
Thank you! It's like this thread is full of Donald Trumps. "I've had hundreds of people tell me that the ban list is fine/broken." Gimme a break with this "evidence."
My 720 Peasant Cube
It honestly hasn't been going as promised for a very, very long time. It's just that it's been going on for so long most people have given up caring or just view what it is now as the original intent.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Sad fact of the matter is that anyone who is on the forums is only a small fraction of the people who play any game.
Even if 15%, even if 50%, even if 80%, EVEN IF 99% of the people who play MTGO on this site hate it's guts, You are only a fraction of the people who play it, and the vocal majority anyway. Hence why most companies will take Forum's Feedback, but won't use it as the only source.
I don't have problems with it and do enjoy Modo.
Doesn't change that it has severe issues on my levels and really could use some fixing and improvement in many areas.
But it's really not as bad as many make it out to be, at least the new client.
To me it often seems like many tried the old client before and now hating on Modo is just the cool thing to do.
While it certainly deserves criticism, it's not as abysmal as the general (vocal) opinion makes it out to be.
That's just my view on the thing though.
Feel free to hate it, even if I find that notion rather silly. ^^
Standard infinite combos giving you a headache and the opponent always has Force of Will?
No matter the issue, there is one simple trick to solve all of your Magic problems!!
~~~To get in on the secret to eternal luck, skill and victory, just follow this link!!~~~
I totally understand your point, and I'm generally not in favor of knee-jerk bannings either. I do, however, feel sorry for people who have to endure the next few Modern GPs before April.
My 720 Peasant Cube
It's not like they are forced to go to them.
If they don't like the meta, cancel your stuff and don't go.
Yes, "just don't do the thing you dislike" is a stupid argument, but at the moment that's all you can do, as much as that sucks.
Personally I find it more annoying that Modo is all fubar for now, and leagues are not really playable, unless you wanna metagame hard.
But at least that showed me the amazing world that is Pauper, so there's that. ^^
Standard infinite combos giving you a headache and the opponent always has Force of Will?
No matter the issue, there is one simple trick to solve all of your Magic problems!!
~~~To get in on the secret to eternal luck, skill and victory, just follow this link!!~~~
So they should just let, by format standards, which admittedly need to be WAY more clear and defined, broken decks run rampant and not "nerf" them, aka balance the format to a degree?
Or do you mean they should just outright break decks, instead of giving them a sliver of tier 2/3 hope?
Also how are bans confusing?
What?
Cards X, Y, Z can no longer be played, find a substitute or similar deck / play a different deck, wow very complex.
That plus the vast amount of metagame prediction and analysis done /for you/ by various websites makes bans not really confusing to anyone who knows their way around Modern.
And since most people won't be PT players, they can just wait how everything turns out before having to buy new stuff and adjust their deck to the new meta, really.
I don't get your points here at all and as they stand /strongly/ disagree. ^^
See the very interesting article on mtggoldfish.com for this topic: http://www.mtggoldfish.com/articles/the-real-reason-splinter-twin-got-banned
But because that's a lazy answer, let me make more or less the same points again:
Modern doesn't ship products. Yes, it's super popular and Scg, Cfb and anyone big on magiccardmarket.com is making probably a lot of money off of it.
But does WotC get a share? Hardly.
Only a handful of Standard cards make a splash in Modern, often as metagame dependant alternatives to staples, but those aside, no one, especially not players, but not even vendors, crack packs to sell Modern cards.
So, for Wizards, having a PT that does not advertise their latest product directly makes very little sense compared to having another Standard PT.
That said, even if we don't see them as purely profitoriented capitalists, I can understand how a Modern PT can leave a bit of a sour taste in their mouth, especially if it's "just the same as last year (with a few cards different)" to someone not hugely invested in Modern.
So, in the light of the unpopular Twin banning and the potential precedence it sets for the future, I can't see how anyone is still asking to keep the Modern PT, if they don't like it being as much a big show as it is a premiere competitive Magic event.
Yes, it's really cool to see the best of the best figure out this format, and I absolutely loved the show PT:OGW was!
On the other hand, for actual playing, I much prefer a stable environment than one that changes every year. Even if it doesn't affect a personal deck, the following aggro surge (normal in new metas) and shift in match-ups can be a hassle to deal with.
Personally I MUCH prefer Modern as a "Legacy light" rather than "Big Standard" and I think, looking as past discussion on the recent bannings in particular, many here agree.
Without the Pro Tour needed bans can happen faster and "shake-up" bans can be handled a lot more lenient.
So...why keep the PT around still, if no one's really happy with it?!
If you /really/ want it to stay I'd love to also hear some advice and suggestions as to how it should be handled. What changes need to be done to please WotC /and/ the players alike?
Only asking for it to stay when it was much to our dismay just a few weeks ago, seems rather illogical.
As for the whole Eldrazi mess:
Yes, it sucks currently for anyone playing, well, huge Eldrazi and Podless Pod fans aside maybe.
But banning randomly right away seems just wrong.
I very much agree with them waiting till the official date to give them the axe, to make the right banning call and not increase ban fear by making a spontaneous, uninformed ban right away.
Standard infinite combos giving you a headache and the opponent always has Force of Will?
No matter the issue, there is one simple trick to solve all of your Magic problems!!
~~~To get in on the secret to eternal luck, skill and victory, just follow this link!!~~~
We'll the popularity has pushed staple prices high enuf that it's impractical for most people to have more than a deck or two. And while there is not rotation there may as well be because anytime a card becomes the premier cornerstone of the deck to beat it gets banned. It's essentially a rotation for only the best cards on a haphazard schedule.
Face it the card pool is just too big for a quality format, and it's growing every couple months. WotC has imposed this no win by turn 3 rule and banned anything that breaks it. But players will just keep finding ways to do it then complain when their deck gets nerfed. Get rid of that you say? This would be the worst thing they could do, the whole format would end up being games of completely non interacturn combo decks with the winner being whoever got to go off first.
Look I get it you don't want to spend hundreds of dollars revamping decks every year, but is this really saving you the money and headaches you had hoped when you spend a few hundred building a deck only to have its engine banned and having to start over?
You want a format that's not expensive, diverse and doesn't rotate? How about this, once-upon-a-standard, all decks are decks that would have been standard legal at some point. Anything banned in standard in its day is banned here. I've played this with my friends and while some standard environments were weaker than others but even decks from strong environments tend to be weak to decks from other formats. There is also plenty of room for innovation as your old standard decks will face decks they never had to deal with and will need to find answers from with in their associated card pool.
The only real problem with this format is that it requires more due diligence on the part of players and judges to ensure that all the cards in a particular deck we're all in standard together at some point. The easiest way to do this is to only allow those editions of cards that were in standard together or requiring at least one copy of each card be.
I'm sure the modern core will bash this but if you aren't a closed minded tool give it a try and tell me it's not loads of fun.
Way to elaborate. Lemme guess, "It was supposed to be a way around the reserved list! This should be closer to legacy!!111!11!1oneoneone!1!"
Ideally, this format would have 4-5 well-balanced archetypes. We don't have that now, but we're moving closer to it.
MTG finance guy- follow me on Twitter@RichArschmann or RichardArschmann on Reddit
When Modern first came out, we all realized that it was Wizard's solution to the withering of Legacy and Vintage under the barrage of the Reserve List (and Wizards's unwillingness to render said list irrelevant but just printing upgrades or cards filling the same niche without being functionally identical BUT I DIGRESS). And, it seemed like a fair compromise. Over time, as new cards were printed, it would look more and more like Legacy. Ten years down the line, old farts like me would probably be quite comfortable in a new non-rotating format like that.
So, I settled back to wait and see how the format would develop and blossom into one as broad and diverse as Legacy. Early on, Wizards had a choice. It made it clear that it did not want the games to end in under three turns. Okay, that's cool. But, as the format expands, powerful combos will emerge. If you want it to be slower than Legacy, you need to address them. Dark Depths. Dredge. If you're Wizards, you can address these threats in two different ways. One way is to create a card like "Force of Will" that stops early turn, all-in gambits and slows down the format. The other way is to play whack-a-mole with the Banned list to try and gut fast or oppressive decks.
They have so far opted for the latter. This is a fine decision; I disagree with the whining I'm hearing in this thread. If you want to keep the format fresh and stomp out oppressive fast strategies without giving players access to real early game control cards, then this is one way to do it. It doesn't make the format any less fun to watch. And, honestly, there's no reason to think Eldrazi is not going to get the same treatment if it keeps putting up results. A format where the Banned list is use to enforce fairness, and frequently changed, is a fine thing.
HOWEVER - it's not becoming the new Legacy that I was hoping when this first emerged. I said it's a fine decision for Wizards to control Modern using the Banned list. That's true, but it's not creating a format that I want to play in. It's not creating a place where strong decks emerge and are held in a web of strong answers, allowing dozens of archetypes to flourish. The line between a Tier 1 and Tier 2 Legacy deck is very slim, and once you hit tier 2 you can play virtually anything you want. Modern seems much simpler and less diverse -- people head for whatever linear strategy is best at the moment.
So, complain if you like, but I think Wizards' decisions are producing exactly what they want. If you don't like, it join us old folks in the REAL eternal formats.
We'll even let you use Play Test cards if you don't want to mortgage your house to buy a mana base.
Modern is a fun format although it does have problems. First off, the absence of a dedicated control deck. With all these linear strategies, your going to have to design or unban something to allow this type of deck to become competitive. Your answer cannot be ban, ban, ban (unless it is clearly unhealthy). Breathe new life into the format, instead of killing off cards in search of a more diverse format. So far that has only caused the modern player grief and has set the tone of massive paranoia within the player base because their thousand dollar deck could be killed.
I for one enjoy modern and I don't really think it's that hard to fix.... I'm still going to play, well maybe not right now because of the Eldrazi uprising but I will play.... I also have faith that WOTC will figure out how to balance the format. First thing first, trap these Eldrazi's in some hedrons or something.... The current modern format reminds me of the OG Affinty standard metagame.... And that was not fun at all.
Also take my 2 cents with a grain of salt, I'm a longtime FNM hero with no significant big tournament wins but loves the game. My apology for the long post and someone sell me their Promo Gaea's Cradle and Promo Survival of the fittest I need them for my EDH deck.