You are forgetting about 2 things, the mythic rarity and how now the presale of cards and there is a 'starting' point for cards. Presales and spoilers have made the prices start higher. Add in the mythic rarity and known how rare they are, not to mention a good number of them are constructed playable in one or more formats, its created a demand that far exceeds the supply. Especially early on, like the next coupe weeks with a new set.
Quote from GotSK »
That makes no sense whatsoever. If those costs went up even remotely the same magnitude, no LGS would be in business today. Demand went up, supply was kept the same. Thats why board games or a lot of other hobby articles sold by the same LGS did not go up in price that much. And all of this has jack ***** to do with MTGO prices.
As for MTGO, I know nothing about it. The market, the meta, nothing. I play paper only. I have heard nothing but bad things from those that play MTGO. I do know you are paying for something not tangible. Well you can trade in sets for a certain time, but for the most part, those cards are not real nor carry any value. I understand I am an old time player, I prefer cards in my collection and in my hands. Some may disagree, thats fine. Its not for me.
But board games and other card games have gone up over that same time. Rent alone, at least in my area, has almost doubled in 15 years. I could get a store front for roughly $50 a sq ft 15 years ago. Today that same store front is over $100 a sq ft. Electricity is up about 40% from the same time frame. Gas prices for heat have doubled at least. Shipping prices have at least doubled, probably more then that. Yet we have more LGS today then we had 15 years ago many more. SO your thinking higher prices would stop stores form opening is wrong. The LGS owner has adapted to the changes.
The demand is one thing, but there is more to it. There is a lot of things that contribute to the prices. 10-15 years ago we had no pre sales, no starting prices, prices were set by demand and only demand. Its why some cards like Goyf started as a fifty cent, dollar bulk rare and ended up a $100 card over time.
If Wotc let the presses run, now they have to worry about destroying over run or pay for storage until demand wants all those cards. Who do you think will end up paying for that cost? Thats right, us the consumer. I wont even go into how Wotc tried that already and got burnt. Its why certain older boxes can be had for a few bucks, and other boxes cost your first born. Wotc has learned form past mistakes.
As for MTGO, I know nothing about it. The market, the meta, nothing. I play paper only. I have heard nothing but bad things from those that play MTGO. I do know you are paying for something not tangible. Well you can trade in sets for a certain time, but for the most part, those cards are not real nor carry any value. I understand I am an old time player, I prefer cards in my collection and in my hands. Some may disagree, thats fine. Its not for me.
They can be bought, sold, and traded, just like cardboard. They hold value and are used for play, just like cardboard. I had a hard time wrapping my head around this concept myself until I saw that not only can you trade them between other players, you can also sell them to retail sites for much less of a loss than paper ones (retaining as much as 90% of purchase value). The freedom to play as many games as I want at any time I want, coupled with the fact that decks cost about 1/3 the price of their paper counterparts, it was extremely easy to get into. The main selling point though was the liquidity of the collection. At any time, I can go to an online retailer (like MTGOTraders.com) and sell them my entire inventory if I ever want to get out of the online game and recoup most of my input costs.
Those are fixed costs, not production costs. When fixed costs triple, the cost of every item should not triple as well. That's why I said "If those costs went up even remotely the same magnitude, no LGS would be in business today."
You are only concentrating on the cards that have gone up. There are plenty of cards that have not even doubled in price, let alone tripled.
How has any of that not to do with demand?
You really dont understand the market.
No one wants to miss out on the next Goyf. So after Goyf did its massive increase in a short time, LGS decided to pre sale cards at set prices. This way LGS and online stores dont miss the boat entirely on the dramatic rise of cards.
The demand for new cards is now always there. People want them all. They over pay in some instances. Then when the prices fall, they cant sell, so they hang on to them, creating an artificial supply issue raising the prices. Prices go up, these people sell out quick to get there money, the price comes down again. now we have a new group 'stuck' with cards. The bottom is always rising, and the peaks grow every cycle.
I find it highly ironic that its your argument to say "those cards are not real nor carry any value" while at the same time you think that your tangible cards in your collection carry any real value. Somehow it is completely inconceivable for you to pay ~700 Dollars for online Jund, but absolutely fine to pay 2,5k for pieces of cardboard that are functionally equivalent to cut out pieces of paper from a proxy generator.
Except those proxies are not legal to play with in a competitive event. Get caught and you will be looking for a new hobby.
I have zero issues with the market. It is what it is and its always been. It works for the majority. As I have said, Wotc did things different in the past and it almost caused them to close the doors. They had to change their ways or we wouldnt be talking about the game today. Magic is a business first and foremost. The object from that stand point is to make money for all involved from Hasbro, to Wotc, to thousands of LGS, to the T.O.s and on line vendors, to the players, yes the players. If cards didnt have value, players would have zero reason to crack packs or draft. Destroy the value of cards, Wotc destroys a format in limited.
I know my collection has value. I know Magic cards in general have value. I know of someone that just recently sold off their collection for a down payment on a house. I know of others that have sold and bought cars and trucks. Used the money as start up capital for a new business. That is the definition of value.
Again, I do know that, but how has that anything to do with my point? It does not matter how exactly the artificial scarcity is achieved, it matters that it is hurtful for the game overall and its competitive scene (or the growth of it, to be precise).
But it is not. It helps it. You are assuming the more players in higher level events is a good thing. They are already running 2 day events and how many days do you think events should be? how many venues do you think can handle 4000, 5000, 10,000 Magic players along with vendors and side events? Prices keep the higher end competitive level events under control.
You are only looking at it from a wanna be higher level player and not the logistics of the events you are wanting or the business side of it.
As for MTGO, I know nothing about it. The market, the meta, nothing. I play paper only. I have heard nothing but bad things from those that play MTGO. I do know you are paying for something not tangible. Well you can trade in sets for a certain time, but for the most part, those cards are not real nor carry any value. I understand I am an old time player, I prefer cards in my collection and in my hands. Some may disagree, thats fine. Its not for me.
They can be bought, sold, and traded, just like cardboard. They hold value and are used for play, just like cardboard. I had a hard time wrapping my head around this concept myself until I saw that not only can you trade them between other players, you can also sell them to retail sites for much less of a loss than paper ones (retaining as much as 90% of purchase value). The freedom to play as many games as I want at any time I want, coupled with the fact that decks cost about 1/3 the price of their paper counterparts, it was extremely easy to get into. The main selling point though was the liquidity of the collection. At any time, I can go to an online retailer (like MTGOTraders.com) and sell them my entire inventory if I ever want to get out of the online game and recoup most of my input costs.
Thats interesting. I have heard just the opposite. Those sites only want certain cards and you never get near what you put in. I have also heard the market is very unstable with all the older drafts and sealed events they have through out the year. I believe either MTGO just finished or is doing original Ravnica drafts. A friend that had a play set of Bobs that he said was worth about $15 on line before hand has dropped to like $8. He is so pissed he is thinking of quitting the game. He constantly complains about a crappy interface and lag outs during matches and even drafting. He is looking into selling out so I will pass on what you said.
To each their own though. I know we live in an electronic world. I just cant get on board with MTGO.
the difference is, you seem to like it and I don't.
Its not a matter of liking or not. Its needed because of the logistics issues larger events would bring. How many 3 and 4 day events do you think would be run over a years time? How many places do you think can handle that type of attendance? How many judges can do an event more then 2 days?
How would you feel if every event was capped and you had to sign up months in advance just to get in?
You say you dont like how its effecting the events now, I dont think you understand how it would effect the events if we didnt have it. You think its hard now to become a pro? It would be even harder if there was no barrier into the competitive scene.
There is not artificial scarcity. That is something you wish to believe because you can not understand the market.
I really dont think you understand collectibles especially talking about selling your collection for a car as money laundering. So people who deal in sports cards and make a rather large gain and can buy a car or motorcycle is money laundering to you. The person who sells there Elvis collection and buys a house is money laundering to you. Maybe its because you dont live in America, but these are normal things to hear about and see. People invest in their collections to make money down the road. Its not different with Magic cards, which by the way are a collectable as well as game pieces.
One last thing, stop trying to pigeon hole Magic into other business models. Magic is a collectable trading card game. The most successful one ever done. There may be other business models that can make one part of the equations better, but that does not mean over all it would be better. It could possibly make other aspects worse. Wotc has been around a long time and they have tried a lot of things. Its taken them a long time to get the game to where it is now. You dont have to like what they have done or where they are going, but they dont have to answer to you. They have to answer to Hasbro. As long as Hasbro is happy, we get to continue to play/collect/speculate this great game.
As for MTGO, I know nothing about it. The market, the meta, nothing. I play paper only. I have heard nothing but bad things from those that play MTGO. I do know you are paying for something not tangible. Well you can trade in sets for a certain time, but for the most part, those cards are not real nor carry any value. I understand I am an old time player, I prefer cards in my collection and in my hands. Some may disagree, thats fine. Its not for me.
But board games and other card games have gone up over that same time. Rent alone, at least in my area, has almost doubled in 15 years. I could get a store front for roughly $50 a sq ft 15 years ago. Today that same store front is over $100 a sq ft. Electricity is up about 40% from the same time frame. Gas prices for heat have doubled at least. Shipping prices have at least doubled, probably more then that. Yet we have more LGS today then we had 15 years ago many more. SO your thinking higher prices would stop stores form opening is wrong. The LGS owner has adapted to the changes.
The demand is one thing, but there is more to it. There is a lot of things that contribute to the prices. 10-15 years ago we had no pre sales, no starting prices, prices were set by demand and only demand. Its why some cards like Goyf started as a fifty cent, dollar bulk rare and ended up a $100 card over time.
If Wotc let the presses run, now they have to worry about destroying over run or pay for storage until demand wants all those cards. Who do you think will end up paying for that cost? Thats right, us the consumer. I wont even go into how Wotc tried that already and got burnt. Its why certain older boxes can be had for a few bucks, and other boxes cost your first born. Wotc has learned form past mistakes.
They can be bought, sold, and traded, just like cardboard. They hold value and are used for play, just like cardboard. I had a hard time wrapping my head around this concept myself until I saw that not only can you trade them between other players, you can also sell them to retail sites for much less of a loss than paper ones (retaining as much as 90% of purchase value). The freedom to play as many games as I want at any time I want, coupled with the fact that decks cost about 1/3 the price of their paper counterparts, it was extremely easy to get into. The main selling point though was the liquidity of the collection. At any time, I can go to an online retailer (like MTGOTraders.com) and sell them my entire inventory if I ever want to get out of the online game and recoup most of my input costs.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
You are only concentrating on the cards that have gone up. There are plenty of cards that have not even doubled in price, let alone tripled.
You really dont understand the market.
No one wants to miss out on the next Goyf. So after Goyf did its massive increase in a short time, LGS decided to pre sale cards at set prices. This way LGS and online stores dont miss the boat entirely on the dramatic rise of cards.
The demand for new cards is now always there. People want them all. They over pay in some instances. Then when the prices fall, they cant sell, so they hang on to them, creating an artificial supply issue raising the prices. Prices go up, these people sell out quick to get there money, the price comes down again. now we have a new group 'stuck' with cards. The bottom is always rising, and the peaks grow every cycle.
Except those proxies are not legal to play with in a competitive event. Get caught and you will be looking for a new hobby.
I have zero issues with the market. It is what it is and its always been. It works for the majority. As I have said, Wotc did things different in the past and it almost caused them to close the doors. They had to change their ways or we wouldnt be talking about the game today. Magic is a business first and foremost. The object from that stand point is to make money for all involved from Hasbro, to Wotc, to thousands of LGS, to the T.O.s and on line vendors, to the players, yes the players. If cards didnt have value, players would have zero reason to crack packs or draft. Destroy the value of cards, Wotc destroys a format in limited.
I know my collection has value. I know Magic cards in general have value. I know of someone that just recently sold off their collection for a down payment on a house. I know of others that have sold and bought cars and trucks. Used the money as start up capital for a new business. That is the definition of value.
But it is not. It helps it. You are assuming the more players in higher level events is a good thing. They are already running 2 day events and how many days do you think events should be? how many venues do you think can handle 4000, 5000, 10,000 Magic players along with vendors and side events? Prices keep the higher end competitive level events under control.
You are only looking at it from a wanna be higher level player and not the logistics of the events you are wanting or the business side of it.
Thats interesting. I have heard just the opposite. Those sites only want certain cards and you never get near what you put in. I have also heard the market is very unstable with all the older drafts and sealed events they have through out the year. I believe either MTGO just finished or is doing original Ravnica drafts. A friend that had a play set of Bobs that he said was worth about $15 on line before hand has dropped to like $8. He is so pissed he is thinking of quitting the game. He constantly complains about a crappy interface and lag outs during matches and even drafting. He is looking into selling out so I will pass on what you said.
To each their own though. I know we live in an electronic world. I just cant get on board with MTGO.
Quiting over the price of online/digital costs is silly though, that *****s not real its bits on a server.
Spirits
Its not a matter of liking or not. Its needed because of the logistics issues larger events would bring. How many 3 and 4 day events do you think would be run over a years time? How many places do you think can handle that type of attendance? How many judges can do an event more then 2 days?
How would you feel if every event was capped and you had to sign up months in advance just to get in?
You say you dont like how its effecting the events now, I dont think you understand how it would effect the events if we didnt have it. You think its hard now to become a pro? It would be even harder if there was no barrier into the competitive scene.
There is not artificial scarcity. That is something you wish to believe because you can not understand the market.
I really dont think you understand collectibles especially talking about selling your collection for a car as money laundering. So people who deal in sports cards and make a rather large gain and can buy a car or motorcycle is money laundering to you. The person who sells there Elvis collection and buys a house is money laundering to you. Maybe its because you dont live in America, but these are normal things to hear about and see. People invest in their collections to make money down the road. Its not different with Magic cards, which by the way are a collectable as well as game pieces.
One last thing, stop trying to pigeon hole Magic into other business models. Magic is a collectable trading card game. The most successful one ever done. There may be other business models that can make one part of the equations better, but that does not mean over all it would be better. It could possibly make other aspects worse. Wotc has been around a long time and they have tried a lot of things. Its taken them a long time to get the game to where it is now. You dont have to like what they have done or where they are going, but they dont have to answer to you. They have to answer to Hasbro. As long as Hasbro is happy, we get to continue to play/collect/speculate this great game.