Treasure cruise wasn't THAT bad, I could see ancestral visions being okay.
Treasure Cruise wasn't bad? I played Burn, yes Burn with Treasure Cruise for 3 weeks when it was legal. Since I began the game in 1994 (with the exception of Treasure Burn), I played Burn exactly once in a tournament setting. Treasure Cruise was bonkers. It may have been slightly overlooked by the Pod deck getting even better, but most people could see that Treasure Cruise was not going to be in the format long.
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
eh i guess you could skip the scalding tarns in that deck. and i'm just saying ancestral visions shouldn't be worse than treasure cruise; even if its overpowered the meta game should still be "okay"
Treasure Cruise wasn't bad? I played Burn, yes Burn with Treasure Cruise for 3 weeks when it was legal. Since I began the game in 1994 (with the exception of Treasure Burn), I played Burn exactly once in a tournament setting. Treasure Cruise was bonkers. It may have been slightly overlooked by the Pod deck getting even better, but most people could see that Treasure Cruise was not going to be in the format long.
Burn didn't really benefit that much from Treasure Cruise. The problem Treasure Cruise had in Burn is that instead of being a burn spell, it's a card that could hopefully get you more burn spells. So while you have the potential to end up with more Burn spells, you're adding an extra layer into the thing and opening yourself up to more disruption. Remand is laughable against a regular Burn spell, but it's a killer against Treasure Cruise. I saw quite a few games where if a Burn player's Treasure Cruise had been any burn spell, they would have won, but because it wasn't, they lost.
I mean, not even all of the Burn decks were playing it. It was like Bump in the Night; it's great to have another 1-mana three-damage spell, but you have to ask yourself if going into that color is worth it. Some people thought it was, some people thought it wasn't, and there wasn't really a right answer. So while Burn could play it, it didn't really benefit much from it. Monastery Swiftspear was a significantly bigger boost to Burn than Treasure Cruise ever was.
The real issue with Treasure Cruise was Delver. That deck benefitted from the card way more than Burn ever did. For Burn, Treasure Cruise is just a roll of the dice that hopefully will cause you to have an extra Burn spell. In Delver, you'd get benefits just from the card being in your deck or being cast, i.e. flipping your Delver or getting a token from Young Pyromancer, plus it was more adept at chaining them together.
Yes I know that UR Delver was the main issue with Treasure Cruise. Gitaxian Probe, Thought Scour, and other 1 mana spells made it easy to get Treasure Cruise at any stage of the game. I personally played Treasure Burn because it beat UR Delver and there wasn't many Rhino Pods in my meta. Maybe Treasure Burn wasn't better than Pre-Treasure Cruise Burn, but it definitely felt better. It felt good enough for me to try the deck. I finally went off the deck after people starting showing up with Soul Sisters type decks.
Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
Grixis delver and jund are plenty interactive. They just cost an arm and a leg.
What? Grixis delver is one of the more affordable decks in the format last i checked
With Snapcaster Mage and Scalding Tarn (the most expensive fetch currently) the deck is not so cheap but certainly is much cheaper than Jund for example.
Snapcaster is the only expensive card, and even then, it's only about $50. The Tarns are not necessary at all, and although you should get them if you can, it's completely playable with 4x Delta and 4x Mire. That's how I play it online because $7 for a fetchland is easier to swallow than $40.
You can build it cheap then fill in the gaps as you go. Grixis is probably my favorite color combination and Delver has some of the cheapest cards in terms of $$$. Bolt, Leak, Remand, Pierce, Terminate, Scour, Delver himself, Young Pyro, Tasigur, Angler, Git Probe, Serum Visions, Rise/Fall, all of these are $5 or less. The only pricey cards are Snapcaster, K Command, and if you want to run Blackcleave Cliffs.
Burn didn't really benefit that much from Treasure Cruise. The problem Treasure Cruise had in Burn is that instead of being a burn spell, it's a card that could hopefully get you more burn spells. So while you have the potential to end up with more Burn spells, you're adding an extra layer into the thing and opening yourself up to more disruption. Remand is laughable against a regular Burn spell, but it's a killer against Treasure Cruise. I saw quite a few games where if a Burn player's Treasure Cruise had been any burn spell, they would have won, but because it wasn't, they lost.
I mean, not even all of the Burn decks were playing it. It was like Bump in the Night; it's great to have another 1-mana three-damage spell, but you have to ask yourself if going into that color is worth it. Some people thought it was, some people thought it wasn't, and there wasn't really a right answer. So while Burn could play it, it didn't really benefit much from it. Monastery Swiftspear was a significantly bigger boost to Burn than Treasure Cruise ever was.
The real issue with Treasure Cruise was Delver. That deck benefitted from the card way more than Burn ever did. For Burn, Treasure Cruise is just a roll of the dice that hopefully will cause you to have an extra Burn spell. In Delver, you'd get benefits just from the card being in your deck or being cast, i.e. flipping your Delver or getting a token from Young Pyromancer, plus it was more adept at chaining them together.
Did you actually play Burn with Cruise? Because it was absolutely dirty.
Yes, it increased variance for the deck and it was fine without the draw 3, seeing as one of the best decks was Delver, an A+ matchup, and even Pod was winnable. But still, drawing 3 cards in that deck was almost always digging you deep enough to break through land gluts and overcome some measly lifegain. The only time it was bad was when you drew multiples in your opener.
ANYWAY, the point is really that Cruise was ridiculously good, and it wasn't particularly close.
Ancestral Vision is definitely not as broken as Treasure Cruise, but it promotes a similar constraint on blue decks. Instead of building for a lot of cheap cantrips and burn spells, Blue decks will instead build towards the long game with lots of interaction and countermagic. They might not be able to stop everyone in the early game, but if you let them get to turn 5+ it will be a serious issue to try and overcome the Card Advantage.
I highly doubt we'll see AV come off next week, though I could see it being reasonable at some point down the road, once they stabilize the metagame again. They aren't going to play with fire coming off of the Eldrazi winter though.
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EDH UW Geist of Saint Traft Aggro-Control WU RUG Riku of Two Reflections Combo GUR BBB Skithiryx Control BB
Burn didn't really benefit that much from Treasure Cruise. The problem Treasure Cruise had in Burn is that instead of being a burn spell, it's a card that could hopefully get you more burn spells. So while you have the potential to end up with more Burn spells, you're adding an extra layer into the thing and opening yourself up to more disruption. Remand is laughable against a regular Burn spell, but it's a killer against Treasure Cruise. I saw quite a few games where if a Burn player's Treasure Cruise had been any burn spell, they would have won, but because it wasn't, they lost.
I mean, not even all of the Burn decks were playing it. It was like Bump in the Night; it's great to have another 1-mana three-damage spell, but you have to ask yourself if going into that color is worth it. Some people thought it was, some people thought it wasn't, and there wasn't really a right answer. So while Burn could play it, it didn't really benefit much from it. Monastery Swiftspear was a significantly bigger boost to Burn than Treasure Cruise ever was.
The real issue with Treasure Cruise was Delver. That deck benefitted from the card way more than Burn ever did. For Burn, Treasure Cruise is just a roll of the dice that hopefully will cause you to have an extra Burn spell. In Delver, you'd get benefits just from the card being in your deck or being cast, i.e. flipping your Delver or getting a token from Young Pyromancer, plus it was more adept at chaining them together.
Did you actually play Burn with Cruise? Because it was absolutely dirty.
Yes, it increased variance for the deck and it was fine without the draw 3, seeing as one of the best decks was Delver, an A+ matchup, and even Pod was winnable. But still, drawing 3 cards in that deck was almost always digging you deep enough to break through land gluts and overcome some measly lifegain. The only time it was bad was when you drew multiples in your opener.
ANYWAY, the point is really that Cruise was ridiculously good, and it wasn't particularly close.
Ancestral Vision is definitely not as broken as Treasure Cruise, but it promotes a similar constraint on blue decks. Instead of building for a lot of cheap cantrips and burn spells, Blue decks will instead build towards the long game with lots of interaction and countermagic. They might not be able to stop everyone in the early game, but if you let them get to turn 5+ it will be a serious issue to try and overcome the Card Advantage.
I highly doubt we'll see AV come off next week, though I could see it being reasonable at some point down the road, once they stabilize the metagame again. They aren't going to play with fire coming off of the Eldrazi winter though.
[Bolded for Emphasis] This tautology is one of the most idiotic lines of argument when it concerns cards on the B&R list + potential bans. If this was a serious line of argument we could pretty much ban a whole host of cards for placing "constraints" on decks. Snapcaster puts an instant/sorcery constraint on a deck. If you want to play the best creature in the format (Tarmogoyf) you have a green mana constraint. If you want to play Abbot of Keral Keep you're going to put a low CMC constraint on the deck. The same with Dark Confidant. If you want to play with Countermagic you're going to place an instant speed constraint on the deck to minimize counterspells weakness (timing). I mean I could go on and on with cards that "place constraints" on deck construction. It's a really stupid argument imho.
As for AV incentivizing blue decks to do...blue things...woah, so broken! The fact that AV only goes into U based control decks is a bonus to the card - it means that it's a relatively safe unban. U based control decks have been historically weak in the format, and only lately with a 50% meta-game that is weak to Supreme Verdict + Planeswalkers like Elspeth has made it competitively playable. When this 50% deck gets banned (Eldrazi) we're going back to a world where U based control is pretty *****ty. The reason why it is so weak comes down to 1) It lacks general answers 2) All of its good CA engines and deck manipulation spells are banned. Unbanning AV at least fixes #2. After WoTC addresses one of these (AV seems the safest to come off) then we can see how much of a boost it gave. If U based control decks are still *****, then hopefully WoTC can continue to address that issue.
Modern has been a joke of a format for a while with control decks historically making up <10% of the meta. That has to change for the betterment of the format. When a pillar of what makes Magic, Magic is limited to such low numbers it's not a surprise that the format has been broken/crap for a while now. Magic needs rock/paper/scissors to have a healthy meta-game. When one leg of the trifecta is <10% you get Modern. Let's change that.
Modern has been a joke of a format for a while with control decks historically making up <10% of the meta. That has to change for the betterment of the format. When a pillar of what makes Magic, Magic is limited to such low numbers it's not a surprise that the format has been broken/crap for a while now. Magic needs rock/paper/scissors to have a healthy meta-game. When one leg of the trifecta is <10% you get Modern. Let's change that.
Could we please put to rest the notion that every possible archetype must be Tier 1 in every existing format? UW Control is a Tier 2 deck in Modern right now, which means that it`s a fine, playable, competitive deck. So a pure control deck is "only" the 7th most played deck in the format right now, cry me a river. Do you see people going "I want to play linear combo in Standard, but it`s just not viable, WotC should fix this joke of a format"? Or "straight creature aggro is unplayable in Legacy, that needs to change for the betterment of the format"? "Control is bad in draft"? All formats are lopsided like that. Please just accept a format for what it is instead of setting yourself up for disappointment when they don`t "fix" it into what yousubjectively think it should be like.
Oh, and the notion that "the format has been broken/crap for a while now" is the opinion of a vocal minority. It`s currently the fastest growing format, and it is the favourite format of a vast sea of magic players worldwide. It didn`t need fixing until about two months ago.
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When I hit my 3000 post mark, I'm gone for good.
Stay reasonable, be mindful of your expectations and don't feed the trolls.
Modern has been a joke of a format for a while with control decks historically making up <10% of the meta. That has to change for the betterment of the format. When a pillar of what makes Magic, Magic is limited to such low numbers it's not a surprise that the format has been broken/crap for a while now. Magic needs rock/paper/scissors to have a healthy meta-game. When one leg of the trifecta is <10% you get Modern. Let's change that.
Could we please put to rest the notion that every possible archetype must be Tier 1 in every existing format? UW Control is a Tier 2 deck in Modern right now, which means that it`s a fine, playable, competitive deck. So a pure control deck is "only" the 7th most played deck in the format right now, cry me a river. Do you see people going "I want to play linear combo in Standard, but it`s just not viable, WotC should fix this joke of a format"? Or "straight creature aggro is unplayable in Legacy, that needs to change for the betterment of the format"? "Control is bad in draft"? All formats are lopsided like that. Please just accept a format for what it is instead of setting yourself up for disappointment when they don`t "fix" it into what yousubjectively think it should be like.
Oh, and the notion that "the format has been broken/crap for a while now" is the opinion of a vocal minority. It`s currently the fastest growing format, and it is the favourite format of a vast sea of magic players worldwide. It didn`t need fixing until about two months ago.
Yes, god forbid we strive to make "the favourite format of a vast sea of magic players worldwide" accommodating to players of all archetypes.
Modern has been a joke of a format for a while with control decks historically making up <10% of the meta. That has to change for the betterment of the format. When a pillar of what makes Magic, Magic is limited to such low numbers it's not a surprise that the format has been broken/crap for a while now. Magic needs rock/paper/scissors to have a healthy meta-game. When one leg of the trifecta is <10% you get Modern. Let's change that.
Could we please put to rest the notion that every possible archetype must be Tier 1 in every existing format? UW Control is a Tier 2 deck in Modern right now, which means that it`s a fine, playable, competitive deck. So a pure control deck is "only" the 7th most played deck in the format right now, cry me a river. Do you see people going "I want to play linear combo in Standard, but it`s just not viable, WotC should fix this joke of a format"? Or "straight creature aggro is unplayable in Legacy, that needs to change for the betterment of the format"? "Control is bad in draft"? All formats are lopsided like that. Please just accept a format for what it is instead of setting yourself up for disappointment when they don`t "fix" it into what yousubjectively think it should be like.
Oh, and the notion that "the format has been broken/crap for a while now" is the opinion of a vocal minority. It`s currently the fastest growing format, and it is the favourite format of a vast sea of magic players worldwide. It didn`t need fixing until about two months ago.
Yes, god forbid we strive to make "the favourite format of a vast sea of magic players worldwide" accommodating to players of all archetypes.
Ok, fair point. Except .. hmm, what if I told you that maybe, maybe it isn`t actually completely impossible to play control in modern? Yes, the archetype isn`t represented in the handful of Tier 1 decks, but is control unplayable? UW Control and Grixis control are Tier 2 decks, which by definition are competitive decks. Are Tier 2 decks not viable? Do you really see it as if formats consist only of the five or six agreed upon Tier 1 decks?
Don`t get me wrong here, I don`t dislike control decks. I think it would be nice to give the archetype a boost in the format. I wouldn`t mind UW/r or Grixis getting bumped. So I agree with you on that part. An AV unban is fine by me. What I do hate with a passion is the constant and never-ending hyperbolic exaggerations about how the control archetype is completely dead and nonexistent in modern, how the format is lousy and broken just because the exact deck this and that poster wants to play isn`t one of the best five or six decks in the format. I`ve read that for years now while people have T8`d or taken down local tournaments with UW, UWr and Grixis. Are you really unable to play a non Tier 1 deck? Do you really have to play something that wins every third GP, and not just something that is perfectly able to take down locals?
And again, as I said before: Hypothetically speaking, if control wasn`t viable - it is, but if it wasn`t - so what? Go play legacy or standard. Again, I`m not complaining about the lack of combo decks in standard because that`s not what standard does. It`s not part of that format. You can`t really play prison or LD in modern either, or pox.
5. "The format was basically the same as before, just not with Storm."
a format without a top tier deck no longer top tier is not the same format as before.
I was talking about the level of interactivity of the format, not the format in general. Though to be fair, Bloodbraid Elf got the axe at the same time, so it can be tricky to disentangle the effects (or lack thereof) of one ban from the effects of the other.
Classifying Storm as "top tier" is dubious. It saw a lot of play online, but it just could not put up real results on paper. Again, in five successive big events (four Grand Prix and one Pro Tour), Storm got only one Top 8, and it lost in the quarterfinals.
is it fine to just lose on the draw to a turn 2 infect kill(even through a bolt) or giselshoalbrand kill? or a turn 2 blood moon with ssg? how do you play around that? or answer that? with 1 mana? thats only ONE problem with modern, its too fast sometimes you just lose on a coinflip wishing daze or fow were legal.
I'm not sure how this is relevant to anything in my post.
I mean if your fine with a goldfish format good for you, but im not.
I'm very confused as to how you could possibly read the last two sentences of my post and somehow come away with this idea. Did you read some version of my post that I didn't actually write? Because that's the only explanation I can find for these last two paragraphs of yours.
" I'm not sure how this is relevant to anything in my post."
but it is relevant. in fact everything wrong with modern is relevant in this thread and in our argument in the last several posts.
"I'm very confused as to how you could possibly read the last two sentences of my post and somehow come away with this idea"
its hard not to come away with this idea when your defending decks like tron lol which are goldfish decks and arent good for fair strategies in this format like ur/x bg/x
We don't even know what 3 months of modern look like without Eldrazi or Twin, let's focus on that first before calling for a bunch of tier 2 and tier 3 decks to receive a ban.
Your arguments make no sense, hellfire. I agree with Lord Seth even if I hate defending tron a little bit.
You called for Boggles ban, Scapeshift ban, Tron ban, Infect ban, Bloom ban, Grishoalbrand ban, but you did not call for a Twin ban(which is a combo). Because it fits in a control shell. That's utterly hypocritic. You trolling Wizards for the Twin ban.
So, let me ask you. If there were 3 Dredgevines in your local store(which is rly happening to mine), would you call for a Dredgevine ban? What if it was being played more and was a solid tier 2 deck(whick some time, depending on the meta game, can be). This deck only exists to humiliate Jund/Abzan/Grixis/Jeskai/Esper Control. Serves no other purpose(other than being a deck some people really happen to like- and I respect that)
The players that have decks which happen to destroy fair / BG(X) + UR(X) / decks should all have their decks removed?
I like playing Boggles. And it's fun to me(eg). I want my deck to hang around so that I can win fair decks wherever I meet 'em. I like to destroy them when I play against them.
But my deck is not that powerful and it s really losing to all of the other decks.
So, banned?
You can repeat your opinions, but because every time you are doing it without arguments and blinded by hate, you are always going to be ending up being wrong. Whoever you are talking to.
I agree with the idea that decks that are good against fair decks shouldn't necessarily be banned just for that reason. I play grixis and sometimes I randomly get smashed by dredgevine or hexproof. All I had to do is add a few cards that are versatile enough to deal with those strategies and perform decently against other match ups.
Tron is the only exception but it isn't because its good against my deck particularly. Just in general I think it's a bit overpowered considering mana destruction costs 3-4 mana (aside from spreading seas which can be removed) so by then it might be too late. AND having eye and being able to search giant monsters pretty easily after a fair deck slogs through the first few. Anyway, that's a different discussion.
But what I was getting at was with these random tier 2.5 decks beating a few specific tier 1.5/2 decks is part of the rock paper scizzors thing. It just isn't in the typical aggro mid control way. It requires these midrange decks to be more well rounded and not just finely tuned to beat the top tier decks specifically.
I would like to see modern gain something like AV or something just to promote more late game action. Maybe that would convince players to use more variety in their plan of attack and move modern away from being so creature-centric.
5. "The format was basically the same as before, just not with Storm."
a format without a top tier deck no longer top tier is not the same format as before.
I was talking about the level of interactivity of the format, not the format in general. Though to be fair, Bloodbraid Elf got the axe at the same time, so it can be tricky to disentangle the effects (or lack thereof) of one ban from the effects of the other.
Classifying Storm as "top tier" is dubious. It saw a lot of play online, but it just could not put up real results on paper. Again, in five successive big events (four Grand Prix and one Pro Tour), Storm got only one Top 8, and it lost in the quarterfinals.
is it fine to just lose on the draw to a turn 2 infect kill(even through a bolt) or giselshoalbrand kill? or a turn 2 blood moon with ssg? how do you play around that? or answer that? with 1 mana? thats only ONE problem with modern, its too fast sometimes you just lose on a coinflip wishing daze or fow were legal.
I'm not sure how this is relevant to anything in my post.
I mean if your fine with a goldfish format good for you, but im not.
I'm very confused as to how you could possibly read the last two sentences of my post and somehow come away with this idea. Did you read some version of my post that I didn't actually write? Because that's the only explanation I can find for these last two paragraphs of yours.
" I'm not sure how this is relevant to anything in my post."
but it is relevant. in fact everything wrong with modern is relevant in this thread and in our argument in the last several posts.
"I'm very confused as to how you could possibly read the last two sentences of my post and somehow come away with this idea"
its hard not to come away with this idea when your defending decks like tron lol which are goldfish decks and arent good for fair strategies in this format like ur/x bg/x
Your arguments make no sense, hellfire. I agree with Lord Seth even if I hate defending tron a little bit.
You called for Boggles ban, Scapeshift ban, Tron ban, Infect ban, Bloom ban, Grishoalbrand ban, but you did not call for a Twin ban(which is a combo). Because it fits in a control shell. That's utterly hypocritic. You trolling Wizards for the Twin ban.
So, let me ask you. If there were 3 Dredgevines in your local store(which is rly happening to mine), would you call for a Dredgevine ban? What if it was being played more and was a solid tier 2 deck(whick some time, depending on the meta game, can be). This deck only exists to humiliate Jund/Abzan/Grixis/Jeskai/Esper Control. Serves no other purpose(other than being a deck some people really happen to like- and I respect that)
The players that have decks which happen to destroy fair / BG(X) + UR(X) / decks should all have their decks removed?
I like playing Boggles. And it's fun to me(eg). I want my deck to hang around so that I can win fair decks wherever I meet 'em. I like to destroy them when I play against them.
But my deck is not that powerful and it s really losing to all of the other decks.
So, banned?
You can repeat your opinions, but because every time you are doing it without arguments and blinded by hate, you are always going to be ending up being wrong. Whoever you are talking to.
can you prove that I called for a ban of scapeshift? also infect and griselshoal ban talk isnt that outlandish....
dredge vine? seriously? your comparing a tier 3 deck with a tier 1 deck?(speaking from an eldraziless format) where the answer to 1 costs 1 mana(relic) and the other costs (3 moon, fulmi) wow good example there....
lets make it clear that you thought bloom was fine in this format and you were wrong yet still argued about it with me for months. and then say things like uwr control isnt interactable with. so no offense I no longer take anything you say seriously.
We don't even know what 3 months of modern look like without Eldrazi or Twin, let's focus on that first before calling for a bunch of tier 2 and tier 3 decks to receive a ban.
gkouru is trying to make it sound that way dont listen to him.
Im only bringing up some issues with modern that will probably exist post eldrazi meta. So im offering up ideas to possibly ban / unban/ print new cards, or a combination of these things, to make modern less of a goldfish format.
IF SOMEHOW modern becomes magically more interactive and less linear post april 4th, I will be suprised
Modern has been a joke of a format for a while with control decks historically making up <10% of the meta. That has to change for the betterment of the format. When a pillar of what makes Magic, Magic is limited to such low numbers it's not a surprise that the format has been broken/crap for a while now. Magic needs rock/paper/scissors to have a healthy meta-game. When one leg of the trifecta is <10% you get Modern. Let's change that.
Could we please put to rest the notion that every possible archetype must be Tier 1 in every existing format? UW Control is a Tier 2 deck in Modern right now, which means that it`s a fine, playable, competitive deck. So a pure control deck is "only" the 7th most played deck in the format right now, cry me a river. Do you see people going "I want to play linear combo in Standard, but it`s just not viable, WotC should fix this joke of a format"? Or "straight creature aggro is unplayable in Legacy, that needs to change for the betterment of the format"? "Control is bad in draft"? All formats are lopsided like that. Please just accept a format for what it is instead of setting yourself up for disappointment when they don`t "fix" it into what yousubjectively think it should be like.
Oh, and the notion that "the format has been broken/crap for a while now" is the opinion of a vocal minority. It`s currently the fastest growing format, and it is the favourite format of a vast sea of magic players worldwide. It didn`t need fixing until about two months ago.
Yes, god forbid we strive to make "the favourite format of a vast sea of magic players worldwide" accommodating to players of all archetypes.
Ok, fair point. Except .. hmm, what if I told you that maybe, maybe it isn`t actually completely impossible to play control in modern? Yes, the archetype isn`t represented in the handful of Tier 1 decks, but is control unplayable? UW Control and Grixis control are Tier 2 decks, which by definition are competitive decks. Are Tier 2 decks not viable? Do you really see it as if formats consist only of the five or six agreed upon Tier 1 decks?
Don`t get me wrong here, I don`t dislike control decks. I think it would be nice to give the archetype a boost in the format. I wouldn`t mind UW/r or Grixis getting bumped. So I agree with you on that part. An AV unban is fine by me. What I do hate with a passion is the constant and never-ending hyperbolic exaggerations about how the control archetype is completely dead and nonexistent in modern, how the format is lousy and broken just because the exact deck this and that poster wants to play isn`t one of the best five or six decks in the format. I`ve read that for years now while people have T8`d or taken down local tournaments with UW, UWr and Grixis. Are you really unable to play a non Tier 1 deck? Do you really have to play something that wins every third GP, and not just something that is perfectly able to take down locals?
And again, as I said before: Hypothetically speaking, if control wasn`t viable - it is, but if it wasn`t - so what? Go play legacy or standard. Again, I`m not complaining about the lack of combo decks in standard because that`s not what standard does. It`s not part of that format. You can`t really play prison or LD in modern either, or pox.
Im of the opinion that tiers only bring formats down. Whenever I hear people say that word, I just think "popularity." If you play a popular deck, that's fine, but don't criticize people who elect to play something different and can make it competitive. If someone becomes really good at playing Poached Eggs, or Restore Balance and you're playing Eldrazi or Scapeshift and lose, then you can't say their deck isn't competitive. Competitive decks are heavily depended on the deck builder and the individual piloting the deck and their knowledge of the current format. Likewise, you can give an Eldrazi deck to a "bad" magic player and they could lose every game.
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If at first you forget to maximize the swag, git gud, you filthy casul...
I was talking about the level of interactivity of the format, not the format in general. Though to be fair, Bloodbraid Elf got the axe at the same time, so it can be tricky to disentangle the effects (or lack thereof) of one ban from the effects of the other.
Classifying Storm as "top tier" is dubious. It saw a lot of play online, but it just could not put up real results on paper. Again, in five successive big events (four Grand Prix and one Pro Tour), Storm got only one Top 8, and it lost in the quarterfinals.
I'm not sure how this is relevant to anything in my post.
I'm very confused as to how you could possibly read the last two sentences of my post and somehow come away with this idea. Did you read some version of my post that I didn't actually write? Because that's the only explanation I can find for these last two paragraphs of yours.
" I'm not sure how this is relevant to anything in my post."
but it is relevant. in fact everything wrong with modern is relevant in this thread and in our argument in the last several posts.
"I'm very confused as to how you could possibly read the last two sentences of my post and somehow come away with this idea"
its hard not to come away with this idea when your defending decks like tron lol which are goldfish decks and arent good for fair strategies in this format like ur/x bg/x
Your arguments make no sense, hellfire. I agree with Lord Seth even if I hate defending tron a little bit.
You called for Boggles ban, Scapeshift ban, Tron ban, Infect ban, Bloom ban, Grishoalbrand ban, but you did not call for a Twin ban(which is a combo). Because it fits in a control shell. That's utterly hypocritic. You trolling Wizards for the Twin ban.
So, let me ask you. If there were 3 Dredgevines in your local store(which is rly happening to mine), would you call for a Dredgevine ban? What if it was being played more and was a solid tier 2 deck(whick some time, depending on the meta game, can be). This deck only exists to humiliate Jund/Abzan/Grixis/Jeskai/Esper Control. Serves no other purpose(other than being a deck some people really happen to like- and I respect that)
The players that have decks which happen to destroy fair / BG(X) + UR(X) / decks should all have their decks removed?
I like playing Boggles. And it's fun to me(eg). I want my deck to hang around so that I can win fair decks wherever I meet 'em. I like to destroy them when I play against them.
But my deck is not that powerful and it s really losing to all of the other decks.
So, banned?
You can repeat your opinions, but because every time you are doing it without arguments and blinded by hate, you are always going to be ending up being wrong. Whoever you are talking to.
can you prove that I called for a ban of scapeshift? also infect and griselshoal ban talk isnt that outlandish....
dredge vine? seriously? your comparing a tier 3 deck with a tier 1 deck?(speaking from an eldraziless format) where the answer to 1 costs 1 mana(relic) and the other costs (3 moon, fulmi) wow good example there....
lets make it clear that you thought bloom was fine in this format and you were wrong yet still argued about it with me for months. and then say things like uwr control isnt interactable with. so no offense I no longer take anything you say seriously.
Well, you called for Grishoalbrand.
You called for Infect(which I agree, but not for the reasons you are stating).
You called for FREAKING BOGLES(I Remember that).
You called for Bloom(which is fine). I will expand on that later.
You indirectly called for RG Linear Scapeshift when you said all decks that are ruining fair decks should be removed.
About Bloom. I was insisting it should not be banned when it was a tier 2 deck, in low numbers(nearly like Grishoalbrand is right now).
When it became a natural tier 1 deck, I changed my mind, like a lot of other people and called for a ban(just like it happened on Modern Nexus- eg Sheridan was insisting a ban should not happen if deck hits tier 1 in a constant basis). I am not a hypocrite. When it became a solid tier 1 deck, I, myself, called for a ban first. Then Modern Nexus called for a ban too(based on numbers, ofc, not on me- I am not implying anything like that).
About Dredgevine, is it really a tier 3 deck? And if it is, I asked you a different thing. IF IT WAS tier 2, would you have called for a ban? Ofc you would. I am just pointing out that you are repeatedly stating your opinion, and I can respect this. But, no, I can not take you seriously when your grounds are none. Just personal basis. Every freakin time.
Is it linear/non interactive/combo? If it is, then remove. If not, it's ok.
Having only black and white as logic, is not something particularly right. There are a ton of other colours in between.
About Jeskai, it is uninteractABLE. In the first 8 turns you cant use your bolts/terminates somewhere. Ok, in turn 9 i can terminate his angel token. But in ultra late game this deck just rips you apart. It's just that this deck does not have the right tools to take it ultra late and the high variance totally kills it. But having draw 3 more cards. This will make the difference.
There is totally interactable Grixis Jace/Delver/Jeskai Midrange/etc and then there is Jeskai control with manlands as a win con. Difference of interaction? A whole lotta.
Difference of fun during the game? A whole lotta.
"You indirectly called for RG Linear Scapeshift when you said all decks that are ruining fair decks should be removed."
all? where did i say all?
bogles and tron being tier 1-2 are enough prevalence to make a person seriously consider NOT playing any ur/x deck in a tournament. there is no case for there nerf as they do not break any rules for the ban list. that one is MY own thoery of one of the many reasons fair decks struggle in this format that is all.
"About Bloom. I was insisting it should not be banned when it was a tier 2 deck"
this , this right here. In my opinion even tier 2 decks should meet the same criteria for win speed consistency and should be dealt with. its something I have a firm stance on ,and will not change my opinion. this is why youll hear me argue for the nerf of decks like affinity, infect and griselshoalbrand
"About Dredgevine, is it really a tier 3 deck? And if it is, I asked you a different thing. IF IT WAS tier 2"
but its not whats there to argue here? use a better example...maybe something like bogles?
"About Jeskai, it is uninteractABLE"
shaun mclaren would dissagree with you on that one.
" But in ultra late game this deck just rips you apart. It's just that this deck does not have the right tools to take it ultra late and the high variance totally kills it"
kinda contradicted yourself there. that being said this is the reason why the deck needs help with av. you really think the formats gonna have trouble with a slow deck that has to get to ultra late game to maybe start winning?
"There is totally interactable Grixis Jace/Delver/Jeskai Midrange/etc and then there is Jeskai control with manlands as a win con. Difference of interaction? A whole lotta.
Difference of fun during the game? A whole lotta."
I have a heck of a fun time playing vs ALL of those decks. hell of a lot better than playing vs some linear tron or bogles crap
Your arguments make no sense, hellfire. I agree with Lord Seth even if I hate defending tron a little bit.
You called for Boggles ban, Scapeshift ban, Tron ban, Infect ban, Bloom ban, Grishoalbrand ban, but you did not call for a Twin ban(which is a combo). Because it fits in a control shell. That's utterly hypocritic. You trolling Wizards for the Twin ban.
So, let me ask you. If there were 3 Dredgevines in your local store(which is rly happening to mine), would you call for a Dredgevine ban? What if it was being played more and was a solid tier 2 deck(whick some time, depending on the meta game, can be). This deck only exists to humiliate Jund/Abzan/Grixis/Jeskai/Esper Control. Serves no other purpose(other than being a deck some people really happen to like- and I respect that)
The players that have decks which happen to destroy fair / BG(X) + UR(X) / decks should all have their decks removed?
I like playing Boggles. And it's fun to me(eg). I want my deck to hang around so that I can win fair decks wherever I meet 'em. I like to destroy them when I play against them.
But my deck is not that powerful and it s really losing to all of the other decks.
So, banned?
You can repeat your opinions, but because every time you are doing it without arguments and blinded by hate, you are always going to be ending up being wrong. Whoever you are talking to.
can you prove that I called for a ban of scapeshift? also infect and griselshoal ban talk isnt that outlandish....
dredge vine? seriously? your comparing a tier 3 deck with a tier 1 deck?(speaking from an eldraziless format) where the answer to 1 costs 1 mana(relic) and the other costs (3 moon, fulmi) wow good example there....
lets make it clear that you thought bloom was fine in this format and you were wrong yet still argued about it with me for months. and then say things like uwr control isnt interactable with. so no offense I no longer take anything you say seriously.
Well, you called for Grishoalbrand.
You called for Infect(which I agree, but not for the reasons you are stating).
You called for FREAKING BOGLES(I Remember that).
You called for Bloom(which is fine). I will expand on that later.
You indirectly called for RG Linear Scapeshift when you said all decks that are ruining fair decks should be removed.
About Bloom. I was insisting it should not be banned when it was a tier 2 deck, in low numbers(nearly like Grishoalbrand is right now).
When it became a natural tier 1 deck, I changed my mind, like a lot of other people and called for a ban(just like it happened on Modern Nexus- eg Sheridan was insisting a ban should not happen if deck hits tier 1 in a constant basis). I am not a hypocrite. When it became a solid tier 1 deck, I, myself, called for a ban first. Then Modern Nexus called for a ban too(based on numbers, ofc, not on me- I am not implying anything like that).
About Dredgevine, is it really a tier 3 deck? And if it is, I asked you a different thing. IF IT WAS tier 2, would you have called for a ban? Ofc you would. I am just pointing out that you are repeatedly stating your opinion, and I can respect this. But, no, I can not take you seriously when your grounds are none. Just personal basis. Every freakin time.
Is it linear/non interactive/combo? If it is, then remove. If not, it's ok.
Having only black and white as logic, is not something particularly right. There are a ton of other colours in between.
About Jeskai, it is uninteractABLE. In the first 8 turns you cant use your bolts/terminates somewhere. Ok, in turn 9 i can terminate his angel token. But in ultra late game this deck just rips you apart. It's just that this deck does not have the right tools to take it ultra late and the high variance totally kills it. But having draw 3 more cards. This will make the difference.
There is totally interactable Grixis Jace/Delver/Jeskai Midrange/etc and then there is Jeskai control with manlands as a win con. Difference of interaction? A whole lotta.
Difference of fun during the game? A whole lotta.
"You indirectly called for RG Linear Scapeshift when you said all decks that are ruining fair decks should be removed."
all? where did i say all?
bogles and tron being tier 1-2 are enough prevalence to make a person seriously consider NOT playing any ur/x deck in a tournament. there is no case for there nerf as they do not break any rules for the ban list. that one is MY own thoery of one of the many reasons fair decks struggle in this format that is all.
"About Bloom. I was insisting it should not be banned when it was a tier 2 deck"
this , this right here. In my opinion even tier 2 decks should meet the same criteria for win speed consistency and should be dealt with. its something I have a firm stance on ,and will not change my opinion. this is why youll hear me argue for the nerf of decks like affinity, infect and griselshoalbrand
"About Dredgevine, is it really a tier 3 deck? And if it is, I asked you a different thing. IF IT WAS tier 2"
but its not whats there to argue here? use a better example...maybe something like bogles?
"About Jeskai, it is uninteractABLE"
shaun mclaren would dissagree with you on that one.
" But in ultra late game this deck just rips you apart. It's just that this deck does not have the right tools to take it ultra late and the high variance totally kills it"
kinda contradicted yourself there. that being said this is the reason why the deck needs help with av. you really think the formats gonna have trouble with a slow deck that has to get to ultra late game to maybe start winning?
"There is totally interactable Grixis Jace/Delver/Jeskai Midrange/etc and then there is Jeskai control with manlands as a win con. Difference of interaction? A whole lotta.
Difference of fun during the game? A whole lotta."
I have a heck of a fun time playing vs ALL of those decks. hell of a lot better than playing vs some linear tron or bogles crap
Well, you do, but most of the people I ve come across the internet do not have a good time when they are playing against a draw go deck. This is why they are being called the fun police.
PS: i do not have a problem with esper draw go , its just WOTC have and several other people as well.
Correct me if im wrong.
According to WotC
-Draw-go is not fun
-counterspell is not fun
-combo is not fun
etc.
So, play creature based combat, with bolt on abilities, just like hearthstone.
[Bolded for Emphasis] This tautology is one of the most idiotic lines of argument when it concerns cards on the B&R list + potential bans. If this was a serious line of argument we could pretty much ban a whole host of cards for placing "constraints" on decks. Snapcaster puts an instant/sorcery constraint on a deck. If you want to play the best creature in the format (Tarmogoyf) you have a green mana constraint. If you want to play Abbot of Keral Keep you're going to put a low CMC constraint on the deck. The same with Dark Confidant. If you want to play with Countermagic you're going to place an instant speed constraint on the deck to minimize counterspells weakness (timing). I mean I could go on and on with cards that "place constraints" on deck construction. It's a really stupid argument imho.
As for AV incentivizing blue decks to do...blue things...woah, so broken! The fact that AV only goes into U based control decks is a bonus to the card - it means that it's a relatively safe unban. U based control decks have been historically weak in the format, and only lately with a 50% meta-game that is weak to Supreme Verdict + Planeswalkers like Elspeth has made it competitively playable. When this 50% deck gets banned (Eldrazi) we're going back to a world where U based control is pretty *****ty. The reason why it is so weak comes down to 1) It lacks general answers 2) All of its good CA engines and deck manipulation spells are banned. Unbanning AV at least fixes #2. After WoTC addresses one of these (AV seems the safest to come off) then we can see how much of a boost it gave. If U based control decks are still *****, then hopefully WoTC can continue to address that issue.
Modern has been a joke of a format for a while with control decks historically making up <10% of the meta. That has to change for the betterment of the format. When a pillar of what makes Magic, Magic is limited to such low numbers it's not a surprise that the format has been broken/crap for a while now. Magic needs rock/paper/scissors to have a healthy meta-game. When one leg of the trifecta is <10% you get Modern. Let's change that.
The broken part is that AV essentially buries your opponent once it resolves. The problem with that is that every blue deck now either needs to play AV or lose to it in the mirror. There is nothing idiotic about this logic, it's been used before. See: Deathrite, First Wild Nacatl Ban, Green Sun's Zenith, etc.
The real issue though isn't whether it places constraints or not, it's whether AV is too powerful in general. And I honestly think that could go either way. But reducing the card to "oh you have to wait, so it's bad" doesn't really do it justice. Waiting to draw 3 for an investment you made on turn 1/2 isn't a big deal when you can easily trade resources up until turn 5/6, which is exactly when an extra 3 cards is going to take over the game.
Complaining that blue doesn't have any good CA or deck manipulation spells is equally idiotic. (spoiler: Serum Visions is actually good despite not being as good as it's broken banned siblings, and Snapcaster Mage, Jace flipwalker, and Cryptic Command are some of the best card advantage spells in the format.)
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MODERN RGB Jund BGR WGB Junk/Abzan Company WGB
LEGACY RUGB Delver GURB
EDH UW Geist of Saint Traft Aggro-Control WU RUG Riku of Two Reflections Combo GUR BBB Skithiryx Control BB
So I was watching a twitch stream with mtg great Brad Nelson and he talked about banning a card that basically no one has talked about. That card is Primeval Titan. His argument was that even thought bloom titan was powering this deck, Titan was the real problem. He also pointed to decks that were banned in the past that were running Primeval titan as the wincon. At some point if every deck is trying to get Titan into play that is doing busted stuff maybe it's not just the engine of the deck that needs to suffer. It was an interesting argument to say the least. Bloom without Titan is just a really good Hive Mind deck that probably cast an eldrazi, Dragonlord Dromokahornet queen to win the game.
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On mtgsalvation people don't want to discuss ideas, so I give people something else to discuss: my controversial opinions.
So I was watching a twitch stream with mtg great Brad Nelson and he talked about banning a card that basically no one has talked about. That card is Primeval Titan. His argument was that even thought bloom titan was powering this deck, Titan was the real problem. He also pointed to decks that were banned in the past that were running Primeval titan as the wincon. At some point if every deck is trying to get Titan into play that is doing busted stuff maybe it's not just the engine of the deck that needs to suffer. It was an interesting argument to say the least. Bloom without Titan is just a really good Hive Mind deck that probably cast an eldrazi, Dragonlord Dromokahornet queen to win the game.
What decks are still playing Primetime though?! Only a couple and they are only ok. The problem with the deck was how fast it went off due to Summer Bloom ramping out Titan on turn 2. Axing bloom effectively relegated the deck to being not even remotely as good. Primeval Titan is a great card but he costs 6 to cast. The payoff is worth the amount of energy it goes into getting 6 mana in modern.
By the way, if you don't recognize the author, he does official text coverage for WOTC. E.g.: GP Detroit.
I wholeheartedly agree with him that Eye should definitely get the ax. I do think that they may ax Temple even just out of precaution/fear that it will still cause problems (even if I disagree with that sentiment).
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The mana cost for Ancestral Vision is "there is no mana cost," so therefore it can't be flashed back with Snapcaster Mage.
Treasure Cruise wasn't bad? I played Burn, yes Burn with Treasure Cruise for 3 weeks when it was legal. Since I began the game in 1994 (with the exception of Treasure Burn), I played Burn exactly once in a tournament setting. Treasure Cruise was bonkers. It may have been slightly overlooked by the Pod deck getting even better, but most people could see that Treasure Cruise was not going to be in the format long.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)What? Grixis delver is one of the more affordable decks in the format last i checked
UWRjeskai nahiri UWR
UBRgrixis titi UBR
UBRgrixis delverUBR
UR ur kikimite UR
EDH
RUG Riku of Two Reflections RUG
UBR Marchesa, the Black Rose UBR
UBRGYidris, Maelstrom Wielder UBRG
UBRJeleva, Nephalia's ScourgeUBR
UWRjeskai nahiri UWR
UBRgrixis titi UBR
UBRgrixis delverUBR
UR ur kikimite UR
EDH
RUG Riku of Two Reflections RUG
UBR Marchesa, the Black Rose UBR
UBRGYidris, Maelstrom Wielder UBRG
UBRJeleva, Nephalia's ScourgeUBR
I mean, not even all of the Burn decks were playing it. It was like Bump in the Night; it's great to have another 1-mana three-damage spell, but you have to ask yourself if going into that color is worth it. Some people thought it was, some people thought it wasn't, and there wasn't really a right answer. So while Burn could play it, it didn't really benefit much from it. Monastery Swiftspear was a significantly bigger boost to Burn than Treasure Cruise ever was.
The real issue with Treasure Cruise was Delver. That deck benefitted from the card way more than Burn ever did. For Burn, Treasure Cruise is just a roll of the dice that hopefully will cause you to have an extra Burn spell. In Delver, you'd get benefits just from the card being in your deck or being cast, i.e. flipping your Delver or getting a token from Young Pyromancer, plus it was more adept at chaining them together.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)Snapcaster is the only expensive card, and even then, it's only about $50. The Tarns are not necessary at all, and although you should get them if you can, it's completely playable with 4x Delta and 4x Mire. That's how I play it online because $7 for a fetchland is easier to swallow than $40.
You can build it cheap then fill in the gaps as you go. Grixis is probably my favorite color combination and Delver has some of the cheapest cards in terms of $$$. Bolt, Leak, Remand, Pierce, Terminate, Scour, Delver himself, Young Pyro, Tasigur, Angler, Git Probe, Serum Visions, Rise/Fall, all of these are $5 or less. The only pricey cards are Snapcaster, K Command, and if you want to run Blackcleave Cliffs.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
Did you actually play Burn with Cruise? Because it was absolutely dirty.
Yes, it increased variance for the deck and it was fine without the draw 3, seeing as one of the best decks was Delver, an A+ matchup, and even Pod was winnable. But still, drawing 3 cards in that deck was almost always digging you deep enough to break through land gluts and overcome some measly lifegain. The only time it was bad was when you drew multiples in your opener.
ANYWAY, the point is really that Cruise was ridiculously good, and it wasn't particularly close.
Ancestral Vision is definitely not as broken as Treasure Cruise, but it promotes a similar constraint on blue decks. Instead of building for a lot of cheap cantrips and burn spells, Blue decks will instead build towards the long game with lots of interaction and countermagic. They might not be able to stop everyone in the early game, but if you let them get to turn 5+ it will be a serious issue to try and overcome the Card Advantage.
I highly doubt we'll see AV come off next week, though I could see it being reasonable at some point down the road, once they stabilize the metagame again. They aren't going to play with fire coming off of the Eldrazi winter though.
RGB Jund BGR
WGB Junk/Abzan Company WGB
LEGACY
RUGB Delver GURB
EDH
UW Geist of Saint Traft Aggro-Control WU
RUG Riku of Two Reflections Combo GUR
BBB Skithiryx Control BB
[Bolded for Emphasis] This tautology is one of the most idiotic lines of argument when it concerns cards on the B&R list + potential bans. If this was a serious line of argument we could pretty much ban a whole host of cards for placing "constraints" on decks. Snapcaster puts an instant/sorcery constraint on a deck. If you want to play the best creature in the format (Tarmogoyf) you have a green mana constraint. If you want to play Abbot of Keral Keep you're going to put a low CMC constraint on the deck. The same with Dark Confidant. If you want to play with Countermagic you're going to place an instant speed constraint on the deck to minimize counterspells weakness (timing). I mean I could go on and on with cards that "place constraints" on deck construction. It's a really stupid argument imho.
As for AV incentivizing blue decks to do...blue things...woah, so broken! The fact that AV only goes into U based control decks is a bonus to the card - it means that it's a relatively safe unban. U based control decks have been historically weak in the format, and only lately with a 50% meta-game that is weak to Supreme Verdict + Planeswalkers like Elspeth has made it competitively playable. When this 50% deck gets banned (Eldrazi) we're going back to a world where U based control is pretty *****ty. The reason why it is so weak comes down to 1) It lacks general answers 2) All of its good CA engines and deck manipulation spells are banned. Unbanning AV at least fixes #2. After WoTC addresses one of these (AV seems the safest to come off) then we can see how much of a boost it gave. If U based control decks are still *****, then hopefully WoTC can continue to address that issue.
Modern has been a joke of a format for a while with control decks historically making up <10% of the meta. That has to change for the betterment of the format. When a pillar of what makes Magic, Magic is limited to such low numbers it's not a surprise that the format has been broken/crap for a while now. Magic needs rock/paper/scissors to have a healthy meta-game. When one leg of the trifecta is <10% you get Modern. Let's change that.
Oh, and the notion that "the format has been broken/crap for a while now" is the opinion of a vocal minority. It`s currently the fastest growing format, and it is the favourite format of a vast sea of magic players worldwide. It didn`t need fixing until about two months ago.
Stay reasonable, be mindful of your expectations and don't feed the trolls.
Doomsdayin'
Yes, god forbid we strive to make "the favourite format of a vast sea of magic players worldwide" accommodating to players of all archetypes.
Don`t get me wrong here, I don`t dislike control decks. I think it would be nice to give the archetype a boost in the format. I wouldn`t mind UW/r or Grixis getting bumped. So I agree with you on that part. An AV unban is fine by me. What I do hate with a passion is the constant and never-ending hyperbolic exaggerations about how the control archetype is completely dead and nonexistent in modern, how the format is lousy and broken just because the exact deck this and that poster wants to play isn`t one of the best five or six decks in the format. I`ve read that for years now while people have T8`d or taken down local tournaments with UW, UWr and Grixis. Are you really unable to play a non Tier 1 deck? Do you really have to play something that wins every third GP, and not just something that is perfectly able to take down locals?
And again, as I said before: Hypothetically speaking, if control wasn`t viable - it is, but if it wasn`t - so what? Go play legacy or standard. Again, I`m not complaining about the lack of combo decks in standard because that`s not what standard does. It`s not part of that format. You can`t really play prison or LD in modern either, or pox.
Stay reasonable, be mindful of your expectations and don't feed the trolls.
Doomsdayin'
" I'm not sure how this is relevant to anything in my post."
but it is relevant. in fact everything wrong with modern is relevant in this thread and in our argument in the last several posts.
"I'm very confused as to how you could possibly read the last two sentences of my post and somehow come away with this idea"
its hard not to come away with this idea when your defending decks like tron lol which are goldfish decks and arent good for fair strategies in this format like ur/x bg/x
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I agree with the idea that decks that are good against fair decks shouldn't necessarily be banned just for that reason. I play grixis and sometimes I randomly get smashed by dredgevine or hexproof. All I had to do is add a few cards that are versatile enough to deal with those strategies and perform decently against other match ups.
Tron is the only exception but it isn't because its good against my deck particularly. Just in general I think it's a bit overpowered considering mana destruction costs 3-4 mana (aside from spreading seas which can be removed) so by then it might be too late. AND having eye and being able to search giant monsters pretty easily after a fair deck slogs through the first few. Anyway, that's a different discussion.
But what I was getting at was with these random tier 2.5 decks beating a few specific tier 1.5/2 decks is part of the rock paper scizzors thing. It just isn't in the typical aggro mid control way. It requires these midrange decks to be more well rounded and not just finely tuned to beat the top tier decks specifically.
I would like to see modern gain something like AV or something just to promote more late game action. Maybe that would convince players to use more variety in their plan of attack and move modern away from being so creature-centric.
can you prove that I called for a ban of scapeshift? also infect and griselshoal ban talk isnt that outlandish....
dredge vine? seriously? your comparing a tier 3 deck with a tier 1 deck?(speaking from an eldraziless format) where the answer to 1 costs 1 mana(relic) and the other costs (3 moon, fulmi) wow good example there....
lets make it clear that you thought bloom was fine in this format and you were wrong yet still argued about it with me for months. and then say things like uwr control isnt interactable with. so no offense I no longer take anything you say seriously.
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gkouru is trying to make it sound that way dont listen to him.
Im only bringing up some issues with modern that will probably exist post eldrazi meta. So im offering up ideas to possibly ban / unban/ print new cards, or a combination of these things, to make modern less of a goldfish format.
IF SOMEHOW modern becomes magically more interactive and less linear post april 4th, I will be suprised
decks playing:
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Im of the opinion that tiers only bring formats down. Whenever I hear people say that word, I just think "popularity." If you play a popular deck, that's fine, but don't criticize people who elect to play something different and can make it competitive. If someone becomes really good at playing Poached Eggs, or Restore Balance and you're playing Eldrazi or Scapeshift and lose, then you can't say their deck isn't competitive. Competitive decks are heavily depended on the deck builder and the individual piloting the deck and their knowledge of the current format. Likewise, you can give an Eldrazi deck to a "bad" magic player and they could lose every game.
"You indirectly called for RG Linear Scapeshift when you said all decks that are ruining fair decks should be removed."
all? where did i say all?
bogles and tron being tier 1-2 are enough prevalence to make a person seriously consider NOT playing any ur/x deck in a tournament. there is no case for there nerf as they do not break any rules for the ban list. that one is MY own thoery of one of the many reasons fair decks struggle in this format that is all.
"About Bloom. I was insisting it should not be banned when it was a tier 2 deck"
this , this right here. In my opinion even tier 2 decks should meet the same criteria for win speed consistency and should be dealt with. its something I have a firm stance on ,and will not change my opinion. this is why youll hear me argue for the nerf of decks like affinity, infect and griselshoalbrand
"About Dredgevine, is it really a tier 3 deck? And if it is, I asked you a different thing. IF IT WAS tier 2"
but its not whats there to argue here? use a better example...maybe something like bogles?
"About Jeskai, it is uninteractABLE"
shaun mclaren would dissagree with you on that one.
" But in ultra late game this deck just rips you apart. It's just that this deck does not have the right tools to take it ultra late and the high variance totally kills it"
kinda contradicted yourself there. that being said this is the reason why the deck needs help with av. you really think the formats gonna have trouble with a slow deck that has to get to ultra late game to maybe start winning?
"There is totally interactable Grixis Jace/Delver/Jeskai Midrange/etc and then there is Jeskai control with manlands as a win con. Difference of interaction? A whole lotta.
Difference of fun during the game? A whole lotta."
I have a heck of a fun time playing vs ALL of those decks. hell of a lot better than playing vs some linear tron or bogles crap
decks playing:
none
According to WotC
-Draw-go is not fun
-counterspell is not fun
-combo is not fun
etc.
So, play creature based combat, with bolt on abilities, just like hearthstone.
The broken part is that AV essentially buries your opponent once it resolves. The problem with that is that every blue deck now either needs to play AV or lose to it in the mirror. There is nothing idiotic about this logic, it's been used before. See: Deathrite, First Wild Nacatl Ban, Green Sun's Zenith, etc.
The real issue though isn't whether it places constraints or not, it's whether AV is too powerful in general. And I honestly think that could go either way. But reducing the card to "oh you have to wait, so it's bad" doesn't really do it justice. Waiting to draw 3 for an investment you made on turn 1/2 isn't a big deal when you can easily trade resources up until turn 5/6, which is exactly when an extra 3 cards is going to take over the game.
Complaining that blue doesn't have any good CA or deck manipulation spells is equally idiotic. (spoiler: Serum Visions is actually good despite not being as good as it's broken banned siblings, and Snapcaster Mage, Jace flipwalker, and Cryptic Command are some of the best card advantage spells in the format.)
RGB Jund BGR
WGB Junk/Abzan Company WGB
LEGACY
RUGB Delver GURB
EDH
UW Geist of Saint Traft Aggro-Control WU
RUG Riku of Two Reflections Combo GUR
BBB Skithiryx Control BB
Decks I'm playing in Modern right now:
URB Grixis Reveler (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-grixis-reveler/)
UB Faeries (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/ub-fae-2/)
UW Azorious Control (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-ojutai-control-2/)
What decks are still playing Primetime though?! Only a couple and they are only ok. The problem with the deck was how fast it went off due to Summer Bloom ramping out Titan on turn 2. Axing bloom effectively relegated the deck to being not even remotely as good. Primeval Titan is a great card but he costs 6 to cast. The payoff is worth the amount of energy it goes into getting 6 mana in modern.
http://blog.mtgprice.com/2016/03/30/why-eye-of-ugin-is-the-ban/
By the way, if you don't recognize the author, he does official text coverage for WOTC. E.g.: GP Detroit.
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Big Johnny.
I wholeheartedly agree with him that Eye should definitely get the ax. I do think that they may ax Temple even just out of precaution/fear that it will still cause problems (even if I disagree with that sentiment).