Moreover, the comparison with Ancient Tomb is very superficial (i.e. in a vacuum). Tomb is a broken card in 2 insanely powerful formats, Legacy and Vintage. Tomb allows crazy things on T1-2. Eye doesn't reach as much power in this restricted format that is Modern. The comparison is catchy but deceitful.
I also don't see how people are comparing Eye of Ugin to Ancient Tomb, since Ancient Tomb can't make 4+ mana on the first turn, while being able to tutor up creatures late-game.
I like how people keep saying it only dominated the Pro Tour when its been ripping Magic Online a new one.
I doubt I'm the only person staying away from MTGO dailies/leagues until the next B&R announcement.
Eye of ugin can be like Mishra's Workshop mana wise. Eldrazi temple is closer to ancient tomb. Hence why I have said the deck is in the realm of vintage shop decks and legacy mud. It's simply too much for modern. I say an emergency ban would not hurt since we would have to wait too long to get any decent hate. Otherwise modern is gonna really suck.
Let's be real here. Given Wizards' track record, either Eye or Temple, or both, WILL be banned. Discounting the World Championships, the deck has already put up more results than Treasure Cruise powered Delver and any deck that had Dig Through Time. If Wizards didn't give the meta time to deal with TC or DTT--two cards which enabled a diverse range of decks, and which were far more hate-able by mainstream strategies than Eldrazi--why on earth should we think they'll allow Eldrazi to survive a ban announcement?
How has it put up more results than Treasure Cruise powered Delver? If we're talking Top 8's, I honestly would dismiss any results from the Pro Tour in regards to the metagame. I've pointed this out before but people seem to forget it, but 37.5% of the rounds that led up to that Top 8 were Draft, i.e. not Modern. That's a pretty significant portion. Someone can engineer a completely different Top 8 by adjusting how the players did in the Draft portion.
Pro Tour Top 8's do tend to affect the metagame on a temporary basis because people see decks doing well and want to adopt them, but in terms of metagame strength their results actually mean very little (at least once they started doing them as multiple formats, back when they were just one format they gave a better read).
Did you not look at the insane win percentages the Eldrazi decks put up in the toughest field possible?
Moreover, the comparison with Ancient Tomb is very superficial (i.e. in a vacuum). Tomb is a broken card in 2 insanely powerful formats, Legacy and Vintage. Tomb allows crazy things on T1-2. Eye doesn't reach as much power in this restricted format that is Modern. The comparison is catchy but deceitful.
I also don't see how people are comparing Eye of Ugin to Ancient Tomb, since Ancient Tomb can't make 4+ mana on the first turn, while being able to tutor up creatures late-game.
I like how people keep saying it only dominated the Pro Tour when its been ripping Magic Online a new one.
I doubt I'm the only person staying away from MTGO dailies/leagues until the next B&R announcement.
Eye of ugin can be like Mishra's Workshop mana wise. Eldrazi temple is closer to ancient tomb. Hence why I have said the deck is in the realm of vintage shop decks and legacy mud. It's simply too much for modern. I say an emergency ban would not hurt since we would have to wait too long to get any decent hate. Otherwise modern is gonna really suck.
so damn true, why let the format adapt to this new meta? didn't work for the cruise meta, why would it work for this one? I love people saying eldrazi surprised the pro tour and thats why it did well. If thats so than why did a non ignorable amount of people play it? they must have known about its "bustedness", I mean cmon people.
"let the format adapt for a couple months" - I just went through a format= cruise, then amulet and right into this crap, can this format be good once again? please wizards?
Let's be real here. Given Wizards' track record, either Eye or Temple, or both, WILL be banned. Discounting the World Championships, the deck has already put up more results than Treasure Cruise powered Delver and any deck that had Dig Through Time. If Wizards didn't give the meta time to deal with TC or DTT--two cards which enabled a diverse range of decks, and which were far more hate-able by mainstream strategies than Eldrazi--why on earth should we think they'll allow Eldrazi to survive a ban announcement?
How has it put up more results than Treasure Cruise powered Delver? If we're talking Top 8's, I honestly would dismiss any results from the Pro Tour in regards to the metagame. I've pointed this out before but people seem to forget it, but 37.5% of the rounds that led up to that Top 8 were Draft, i.e. not Modern. That's a pretty significant portion. Someone can engineer a completely different Top 8 by adjusting how the players did in the Draft portion.
Pro Tour Top 8's do tend to affect the metagame on a temporary basis because people see decks doing well and want to adopt them, but in terms of metagame strength their results actually mean very little (at least once they started doing them as multiple formats, back when they were just one format they gave a better read).
Did you not look at the insane win percentages the Eldrazi decks put up in the toughest field possible?
Do you not see a major problem with relying on results that are heavily affected by things other than Modern?
Like I said, adjust the Draft results and you can get an entirely different Top 8. When something completely unrelated to anything in Modern is that influential on the Top 8, the Top 8 really doesn't mean much.
Too bad people haven't looked at the results and try to account for the draft record. Oh wait...
At Pro Tour Oath of the Gatewatch only 21 players ended up with a 8-2 or better record in constructed, an elite club consisting of 5.3% of all day one players. This is the cream of the crop. With a 8-2 record in constructed, a player would only need to go 4-2 in limited to have a shot at the Top Eight. Going 5-1 would guarantee a slot. The 8-2 or better meta is where things start to get absurd.
Winners: There is only one winner here, Eldrazi. The numbers are staggering. After starting day one with 8% of the meta, the Eldrazi deck once against doubles its percentage to a stunning 47.6% of the 8-2 or better meta. In fact, Eldrazi came one-half of a deck short of making 50% of the field, meaning it was more visible than all the other decks put together.
Let's be real here. Given Wizards' track record, either Eye or Temple, or both, WILL be banned. Discounting the World Championships, the deck has already put up more results than Treasure Cruise powered Delver and any deck that had Dig Through Time. If Wizards didn't give the meta time to deal with TC or DTT--two cards which enabled a diverse range of decks, and which were far more hate-able by mainstream strategies than Eldrazi--why on earth should we think they'll allow Eldrazi to survive a ban announcement?
How has it put up more results than Treasure Cruise powered Delver? If we're talking Top 8's, I honestly would dismiss any results from the Pro Tour in regards to the metagame. I've pointed this out before but people seem to forget it, but 37.5% of the rounds that led up to that Top 8 were Draft, i.e. not Modern. That's a pretty significant portion. Someone can engineer a completely different Top 8 by adjusting how the players did in the Draft portion.
Pro Tour Top 8's do tend to affect the metagame on a temporary basis because people see decks doing well and want to adopt them, but in terms of metagame strength their results actually mean very little (at least once they started doing them as multiple formats, back when they were just one format they gave a better read).
Did you not look at the insane win percentages the Eldrazi decks put up in the toughest field possible?
Do you not see a major problem with relying on results that are heavily affected by things other than Modern?
Like I said, adjust the Draft results and you can get an entirely different Top 8. When something completely unrelated to anything in Modern is that influential on the Top 8, the Top 8 really doesn't mean much.
Okay MTGO is being torn to bits by the deck. At my local shop here out of a 37 man modern tournament the 6 eldrazi players made it to the top. I was playing affinity and could not even come close to keeping up games one. Game 2 the deck is still quicker than me. I don't see how you can think this deck is healthy.
They didn't ban primetime, they banned summer bloom.
They didn't ban Deceiver, they banned twin.
They didn't ban rhino, they banned Pod
They didn't ban dryad Arbor, they banned GSZ
They didnt ban Emrakul, they banned cloudpost
Exceptions: nacatl, DRS,bbe, and sfm. Nacatl was a mistake and has since been unbanned, and sfm and DRS are engines disguised as creatures. BBE banning wasnt enough since they didnt hit the engine.
If you think they will ban a handful of rldrazi creatures instead of one of the engines, you just are not paying attention
Let's be real here. Given Wizards' track record, either Eye or Temple, or both, WILL be banned. Discounting the World Championships, the deck has already put up more results than Treasure Cruise powered Delver and any deck that had Dig Through Time. If Wizards didn't give the meta time to deal with TC or DTT--two cards which enabled a diverse range of decks, and which were far more hate-able by mainstream strategies than Eldrazi--why on earth should we think they'll allow Eldrazi to survive a ban announcement?
How has it put up more results than Treasure Cruise powered Delver? If we're talking Top 8's, I honestly would dismiss any results from the Pro Tour in regards to the metagame. I've pointed this out before but people seem to forget it, but 37.5% of the rounds that led up to that Top 8 were Draft, i.e. not Modern. That's a pretty significant portion. Someone can engineer a completely different Top 8 by adjusting how the players did in the Draft portion.
Pro Tour Top 8's do tend to affect the metagame on a temporary basis because people see decks doing well and want to adopt them, but in terms of metagame strength their results actually mean very little (at least once they started doing them as multiple formats, back when they were just one format they gave a better read).
Did you not look at the insane win percentages the Eldrazi decks put up in the toughest field possible?
Do you not see a major problem with relying on results that are heavily affected by things other than Modern?
Like I said, adjust the Draft results and you can get an entirely different Top 8. When something completely unrelated to anything in Modern is that influential on the Top 8, the Top 8 really doesn't mean much.
Okay MTGO is being torn to bits by the deck. At my local shop here out of a 37 man modern tournament the 6 eldrazi players made it to the top. I was playing affinity and could not even come close to keeping up games one. Game 2 the deck is still quicker than me. I don't see how you can think this deck is healthy.
Right now, I'm more angry at wizards for knowing the cards existed and printing eldrazi that would break the card. The entire problem could have been avoided if they had banned Eye of Ugin before the eldrazi ever hit the field and people began deck brewing. Now people have bought up eye of ugins everywhere and basically wasted their money because public pressure is going to force them to move on it one way or another. Most likely they are going to ban mimic and eye of ugin if temple is kept.
I'd rather find a way to keep Eye of Ugin in the format and ban Eldrazi that are breaking the design intent of that card, but then they still have one more Eldrazi visitation left and I doubt they will let this card slide. Either they ban fast, low cost eldrazi that are too powerful with the card in existence like Eldrazi Mimic in modern and return to big drazi in the next Eldrazi set, or ban eye and keep going with fast drazi.
All I know is that I'm getting severely tired of the endless bickering between people on the forums with this. Those of us who bought eyes are obviously enjoying our time with them and don't want to see them banned. We aren't living in a magical fantasy land saying that it is possible to keep Eye in modern without breaking anything else, either, as it is a very specific tribal mishra's workshop that works for over costed Eldrazi.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Too bad people haven't looked at the results and try to account for the draft record. Oh wait...
At Pro Tour Oath of the Gatewatch only 21 players ended up with a 8-2 or better record in constructed, an elite club consisting of 5.3% of all day one players. This is the cream of the crop. With a 8-2 record in constructed, a player would only need to go 4-2 in limited to have a shot at the Top Eight. Going 5-1 would guarantee a slot. The 8-2 or better meta is where things start to get absurd.
Winners: There is only one winner here, Eldrazi. The numbers are staggering. After starting day one with 8% of the meta, the Eldrazi deck once against doubles its percentage to a stunning 47.6% of the 8-2 or better meta. In fact, Eldrazi came one-half of a deck short of making 50% of the field, meaning it was more visible than all the other decks put together.
"One of the arguments I heard a million times on stream during Pro Tour Oath of the Gatewatch is "give the metagame time to prepare." To me this feels false. Do we really believe that the best Magic players in the world spent two weeks preparing for Modern and everyone except the 8% simply missed the Eldrazi deck, to the point where the didn't prepare at all for it? To me that logic seems shaky at best. While it is true that the deck will have a huge target on its back moving forward, I've seen pros talking about the Eldrazi deck on social media for months, so to assume that they just didn't prepare for it seems questionable at best. ?
This quote is exactly how I feel about modern at the moment. When most pros are calling the deck busted and calling for emergency bans, it's because they have tested against it for awhile. Looks like we have to wait til April just like when Delver was busted with Treasure Cruise to play modern again. Til then enjoy nothing but aggro and non interactive combo decks. I'll probably have to mainboard Spreading seas as a 4 of and play 2-3 ghost quarters in my land base to even play modern.
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On mtgsalvation people don't want to discuss ideas, so I give people something else to discuss: my controversial opinions.
Let's be real here. Given Wizards' track record, either Eye or Temple, or both, WILL be banned. Discounting the World Championships, the deck has already put up more results than Treasure Cruise powered Delver and any deck that had Dig Through Time. If Wizards didn't give the meta time to deal with TC or DTT--two cards which enabled a diverse range of decks, and which were far more hate-able by mainstream strategies than Eldrazi--why on earth should we think they'll allow Eldrazi to survive a ban announcement?
How has it put up more results than Treasure Cruise powered Delver? If we're talking Top 8's, I honestly would dismiss any results from the Pro Tour in regards to the metagame. I've pointed this out before but people seem to forget it, but 37.5% of the rounds that led up to that Top 8 were Draft, i.e. not Modern. That's a pretty significant portion. Someone can engineer a completely different Top 8 by adjusting how the players did in the Draft portion.
Pro Tour Top 8's do tend to affect the metagame on a temporary basis because people see decks doing well and want to adopt them, but in terms of metagame strength their results actually mean very little (at least once they started doing them as multiple formats, back when they were just one format they gave a better read).
Did you not look at the insane win percentages the Eldrazi decks put up in the toughest field possible?
Do you not see a major problem with relying on results that are heavily affected by things other than Modern?
Like I said, adjust the Draft results and you can get an entirely different Top 8. When something completely unrelated to anything in Modern is that influential on the Top 8, the Top 8 really doesn't mean much.
Okay MTGO is being torn to bits by the deck. At my local shop here out of a 37 man modern tournament the 6 eldrazi players made it to the top. I was playing affinity and could not even come close to keeping up games one. Game 2 the deck is still quicker than me. I don't see how you can think this deck is healthy.
I'm not arguing one way or the other about whether the deck is healthy. Even if it's the most broken deck ever created in the history of Magic, I still think that appealing to the Pro Tour Top 8 as evidence of it being overpowered is silly.
On the flipside, only one emergency ban has occurred. That required 4 months of nothing but combo decks, banning a fistful of cards, then realizing the next set would just undo all of that.
Basically, it would be like them banning eye, Temple, smasher, mimic and TKS in this set, then realizing they were printing something even more broken, all while players were leaving the game in droves
1. Wait and see on eldrazi. Give it a couple months and due process no matter how miserable.
I agree with everything you posted except this. And I disagree with this simply because I don't think we're going to learn anything we don't already know.
If they wait they can obtain more data to do the best (not that they know how to analyze data :cough: Splinter Twin :cough: Wild Nacatl), because that's the correct way to do things. I feel that is really busted and it's going to be banned, but feeling it just isn't enough from a technical point of view. Besides, having more evidence helps them to make the banning more 'robust', and thus acceptable by the comunity.
Did you guys read Brian-Brauns article on playing Eldrazi? He bombed out of the pro tour, picked up the pieces at last minute, and won an SCG regional tournament with the colorless deck. He said it felt like playing a legacy deck in modern
Its already making rounds into legacy as we speak. It quite literally is a legacy deck in modern.
My take on the new format: there will be No emergency bans... Sorry, kids, this isn't Yu-Gi-Oh, there's a reason there is adequate space between ban list announcements... Here's an analogy I heard that I agree with: "Think of banned lists like this as though they are a minor hemorrhage. You'll bleed a fair amount until your body realizes what's going on and then it will start clotting, or the wound will eventually be treated by pressure, band aids or even cauterization if it comes to that, but the bleeding will stop, it just takes time."
Sleeper - Restore Balance... This deck, while fragile, still delivers the most devastating effect that currently can exist in Modern, bar none. It wrecks Tron, Scapeshift, Eldrazi, Bogles, and a number of other decks. It's burn matchup after sideboard is impressive. It struggles against Infect, and has a hit or miss matchup with Affinity... And like all decks, loses to Lantern Control because that deck is just stupid.
Why would you play Restore Balance over Living End to combat Eldrazi? I'm curious since I piloted both decks in the past.
I believe WoTC's new policy is to make sure that every color can enjoy the exciting gameplay mechanic of making undercosted dudes and then turning them sideways. Clearly the future of magic.
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1. Wait and see on eldrazi. Give it a couple months and due process no matter how miserable.
I agree with everything you posted except this. And I disagree with this simply because I don't think we're going to learn anything we don't already know.
If they wait they can obtain more data to do the best (not that they know how to analyze data :cough: Splinter Twin :cough: Wild Nacatl), because that's the correct way to do things. I feel that is really busted and it's going to be banned, but feeling it just isn't enough from a technical point of view. Besides, having more evidence helps them to make the banning more 'robust', and thus acceptable by the comunity.
Did you guys read Brian-Brauns article on playing Eldrazi? He bombed out of the pro tour, picked up the pieces at last minute, and won an SCG regional tournament with the colorless deck. He said it felt like playing a legacy deck in modern
Its already making rounds into legacy as we speak. It quite literally is a legacy deck in modern.
My take on the new format: there will be No emergency bans... Sorry, kids, this isn't Yu-Gi-Oh, there's a reason there is adequate space between ban list announcements... Here's an analogy I heard that I agree with: "Think of banned lists like this as though they are a minor hemorrhage. You'll bleed a fair amount until your body realizes what's going on and then it will start clotting, or the wound will eventually be treated by pressure, band aids or even cauterization if it comes to that, but the bleeding will stop, it just takes time."
Sleeper - Restore Balance... This deck, while fragile, still delivers the most devastating effect that currently can exist in Modern, bar none. It wrecks Tron, Scapeshift, Eldrazi, Bogles, and a number of other decks. It's burn matchup after sideboard is impressive. It struggles against Infect, and has a hit or miss matchup with Affinity... And like all decks, loses to Lantern Control because that deck is just stupid.
Why would you play Restore Balance over Living End to combat Eldrazi? I'm curious since I piloted both decks in the past.
Doesn't Eldrazi use relic and nihil spellbomb? Living End doesn't take having the graveyard exiled very well, but restore balance wouldn't have to worry bout that.
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Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
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Doesn't Eldrazi use relic and nihil spellbomb? Living End doesn't take having the graveyard exiled very well, but restore balance wouldn't have to worry bout that.
Living End also has the problem of Chalice at 0. Restore Balance does too, but at least it only has to kill the Chalice, as opposed to Living End which has to kill both an active Chalice and deal with any active Relics and Spellbombs.
How has it put up more results than Treasure Cruise powered Delver? If we're talking Top 8's, I honestly would dismiss any results from the Pro Tour in regards to the metagame. I've pointed this out before but people seem to forget it, but 37.5% of the rounds that led up to that Top 8 were Draft, i.e. not Modern. That's a pretty significant portion. Someone can engineer a completely different Top 8 by adjusting how the players did in the Draft portion.
Pro Tour Top 8's do tend to affect the metagame on a temporary basis because people see decks doing well and want to adopt them, but in terms of metagame strength their results actually mean very little (at least once they started doing them as multiple formats, back when they were just one format they gave a better read).
Did you not look at the insane win percentages the Eldrazi decks put up in the toughest field possible?
Do you not see a major problem with relying on results that are heavily affected by things other than Modern?
Like I said, adjust the Draft results and you can get an entirely different Top 8. When something completely unrelated to anything in Modern is that influential on the Top 8, the Top 8 really doesn't mean much.
Okay MTGO is being torn to bits by the deck. At my local shop here out of a 37 man modern tournament the 6 eldrazi players made it to the top. I was playing affinity and could not even come close to keeping up games one. Game 2 the deck is still quicker than me. I don't see how you can think this deck is healthy.
I'm not arguing one way or the other about whether the deck is healthy. Even if it's the most broken deck ever created in the history of Magic, I still think that appealing to the Pro Tour Top 8 as evidence of it being overpowered is silly.
Affinity
Colorless Eldrazi
UR Eldrazi
Colorless Eldrazi
Angel Chord
UR Eldrazi
UR Eldrazi
Affinity
Colorless Eldrazi
To be clear, I don't think that Wizards will or should emergency ban Eldrazi (although I selfishly would like them to), but I'm pretty certain that they will in April.
Doesn't Eldrazi use relic and nihil spellbomb? Living End doesn't take having the graveyard exiled very well, but restore balance wouldn't have to worry bout that.
Living End also has the problem of Chalice at 0. Restore Balance does too, but at least it only has to kill the Chalice, as opposed to Living End which has to kill both an active Chalice and deal with any active Relics and Spellbombs.
Well you could maindeck Ingot Chewer to fight the artifacts and you allready play Beast Within, together with Fulminator Mage as a LD package, it comes down to just resolving a single Living End that will then simply explode all the lands they have and it seals the game.
Playing Kolaghan's Command in Living End might also help with that, as it destroys artifacts and buybacks some of the cycling creatures.
So you "can" play quite a lot to beat the artifacts (thats potentially 12 artifact destroyers you could maindeck), so a Chalice 0 shouldnt bother you too much, as you can destroy it before going in the Living End phase. Might be a hell of a deck if all your matchups are Affinity and Eldrazi with Chalice.
Relic of Progenitus is certainly annoying, especially if they get multiples and it will remove a bunch of your early cyclers. But in the end, you just need to survive, resolve a Living End and get the land destruction going, so they cant rebuild after.
Probably not as bad as it might first look, if the deck adapts.
With a heavy focus on LD you should also have a nice matchup against Tron, potentially hitting the artifacts from them (like a turn 1 Expedition map getting eaten by your Ingot Chewer, could be sweet).
I remain more convinced that splinter twin shouldn't of been banned. It wasn't going to get better from new sets. I get that people say well you can't unban X because then twin would play it. Except control decks all had good match ups against twin, it can't kill fast from beat down and a control deck has the tools to stop the combo. Any unban that helps twin probably helps controls decks more. Splinter twin was this formats force of will. stop knocking down the pillars. (not a twin player but player of decks with good twin match ups)
The birthing pod argument is consistent, every new creature would break the deck again and again. I have concerns about stoneforge mystic for similar reasons equipment design would have limitations as not to break modern.. although right now batterskull is worse than reality smasher.. and the pro tour uncovered the problem with Eye of ugin a card build specifically to cast large creatures but wizards apparently forgot it existed when they made a ton of powerful mid-range colourless eldrazi.
Sword of the meek, is so weak dies to every common sideboard card. Okay Lantern control is that the deck we are worried about abusing this? In someways it would be merciful, end the game way quicker, the same sideboard hate for the deck as a whole works here.
Ancestral visions... but twin will play it.. not any more even with an unban of twin.. it would help the control decks considerably more. Also remand is a thing oh and if it survives an eye banning processors can return it.
Dig through time... I don't like this as much as visions, It helps another combo deck, Jeskai ascendancy a lot, probably helps twin more than visions, is awkward for delver variants and storm not where as good as TC for them, still feels more combo than control.
Bloodbraid elf... Seems like something they might unban, it was no the culprate of the jund domination, I am actually not sure what it would do, perhaps push the definition of control and format policing over to Jund, would a temur midrange control deck appear if you also unbanned visions?. Undecided on this.
I'd be a bit worried about a blueing of the format, I'd try this then unban bloodbraid elf if green mid range struggles, but I'd be hopeing these unbans just give more good match ups hopefully.
Since no one actually wants to play modern until Eye is banned, perhaps play some unsanctioned modern with some of these banned cards to see what happens.. the format is broken anyway..
pretty sure a ban in april is a foregone conclusion.... if they plan on ever printing any normal costed eldrazi in the future that alone is worthy of a ban under the 'restricts design space' clause... i made that clause up but they've used it in the past for stoneforge mystic....
the mana that it generates alone without any drawbacks is worthy of a ban also...
times are changing... information travels a lot faster than it even did back in 2009... the game is a lot more mature so by a lot of measures the type of effect that these lands are having and results are unprecedented.... and extraordinary circumstances need extraordinary measures.... the longer they wait the more damage they threaten to do to the game...
April is a long wait. I am not sure the player base would want to wait till april.
I'm going to give it at least 3 weeks to see how my local meta shakes out. But it has already not been great after the Twin ban, this makes it even worse. Not optimistic at all, and I have no problem taking some time away from the game.
April is a long wait. I am not sure the player base would want to wait till april.
My article tomorrow will speak directly to this. There is strong evidence to suggest Modern's attendance will not suffer in the longterm, and that Wizards can use the two months to make the proper ban. The risks of waiting are very low. The costs of premature action could be very high, so Wizards is doing the right thing in waiting.
April is a long wait. I am not sure the player base would want to wait till april.
My article tomorrow will speak directly to this. There is strong evidence to suggest Modern's attendance will not suffer in the longterm, and that Wizards can use the two months to make the proper ban. The risks of waiting are very low. The costs of premature action could be very high, so Wizards is doing the right thing in waiting.
I pretty much disagree on all points. Modern is in complete limbo, I wouldn't advise anyone close to me to actively spend money on modern products or tournies until this gets sorted.
April is a long wait. I am not sure the player base would want to wait till april.
My article tomorrow will speak directly to this. There is strong evidence to suggest Modern's attendance will not suffer in the longterm, and that Wizards can use the two months to make the proper ban. The risks of waiting are very low. The costs of premature action could be very high, so Wizards is doing the right thing in waiting.
I pretty much disagree on all points. Modern is in complete limbo, I wouldn't advise anyone close to me to actively spend money on modern products or tournies until this gets sorted.
Do you have any evidence to suggest Modern can't recover from a two month period of potential instability? I've crunched a lot of attendance numbers and I can't see any realistic risk. But I can see significant risk to Wizards a) banning the wrong card because they don't have enough data to pick the right one, and b) banning too early and setting a precedent that emergency bans can happen again. Modern's attendance will recover. The format will be fine. But this shortsighted and kneejerk response to the Eldrazi is wildly risky and we should be thankful Wizards is levelheaded enough to wait.
April is a long wait. I am not sure the player base would want to wait till april.
My article tomorrow will speak directly to this. There is strong evidence to suggest Modern's attendance will not suffer in the longterm, and that Wizards can use the two months to make the proper ban. The risks of waiting are very low. The costs of premature action could be very high, so Wizards is doing the right thing in waiting.
What are the risks other than breaking the generally ban time line? This deck is already warping the meta.
April might be a long wait indeed, but WOTC cannot make a rush ban.
The nature of the format predicts an adaptation. This doesnt mean a good thing. Remember UR Delver with ancestral recall? We adapted, but in a warping way.
I think we wont be able to adapt properly so the deck can stay around. I would love Eldrazi to stay but it doesnt seem healthy for the format.
I can envision the next change by april or june/july (i dont remember which one): - Eldrazi Temple Banned
- Ancestral Vision unbanned.
This counts as we stand right now. Not by march obviously.
SSG is a major ofender to the format politics, but banning it would cause so many decks to die/become almost unplayable ala Amulet bloom. (This goes to Grishoalbrand, Ad nauseam, Eldrazi, super fringe stuff, etc).
I dont think they want to kill that many decks in one go considering none of them have won significantly. (This is true for decks that absolutely need SSG, Eldrazi just ramps to Chalice and Reallity Smasher, it isnt a 100% vital part of the deck).
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Eye of ugin can be like Mishra's Workshop mana wise. Eldrazi temple is closer to ancient tomb. Hence why I have said the deck is in the realm of vintage shop decks and legacy mud. It's simply too much for modern. I say an emergency ban would not hurt since we would have to wait too long to get any decent hate. Otherwise modern is gonna really suck.
I loathe creatures! Praise Prison and Land Destruction!
My Peasant Cube (looking for feedback)
Did you not look at the insane win percentages the Eldrazi decks put up in the toughest field possible?
"let the format adapt for a couple months" - I just went through a format= cruise, then amulet and right into this crap, can this format be good once again? please wizards?
decks playing:
none
Like I said, adjust the Draft results and you can get an entirely different Top 8. When something completely unrelated to anything in Modern is that influential on the Top 8, the Top 8 really doesn't mean much.
Okay MTGO is being torn to bits by the deck. At my local shop here out of a 37 man modern tournament the 6 eldrazi players made it to the top. I was playing affinity and could not even come close to keeping up games one. Game 2 the deck is still quicker than me. I don't see how you can think this deck is healthy.
I loathe creatures! Praise Prison and Land Destruction!
My Peasant Cube (looking for feedback)
They didn't ban Deceiver, they banned twin.
They didn't ban rhino, they banned Pod
They didn't ban dryad Arbor, they banned GSZ
They didnt ban Emrakul, they banned cloudpost
Exceptions: nacatl, DRS,bbe, and sfm. Nacatl was a mistake and has since been unbanned, and sfm and DRS are engines disguised as creatures. BBE banning wasnt enough since they didnt hit the engine.
If you think they will ban a handful of rldrazi creatures instead of one of the engines, you just are not paying attention
UWRjeskai nahiri UWR
UBRgrixis titi UBR
UBRgrixis delverUBR
UR ur kikimite UR
EDH
RUG Riku of Two Reflections RUG
UBR Marchesa, the Black Rose UBR
UBRGYidris, Maelstrom Wielder UBRG
UBRJeleva, Nephalia's ScourgeUBR
Right now, I'm more angry at wizards for knowing the cards existed and printing eldrazi that would break the card. The entire problem could have been avoided if they had banned Eye of Ugin before the eldrazi ever hit the field and people began deck brewing. Now people have bought up eye of ugins everywhere and basically wasted their money because public pressure is going to force them to move on it one way or another. Most likely they are going to ban mimic and eye of ugin if temple is kept.
I'd rather find a way to keep Eye of Ugin in the format and ban Eldrazi that are breaking the design intent of that card, but then they still have one more Eldrazi visitation left and I doubt they will let this card slide. Either they ban fast, low cost eldrazi that are too powerful with the card in existence like Eldrazi Mimic in modern and return to big drazi in the next Eldrazi set, or ban eye and keep going with fast drazi.
All I know is that I'm getting severely tired of the endless bickering between people on the forums with this. Those of us who bought eyes are obviously enjoying our time with them and don't want to see them banned. We aren't living in a magical fantasy land saying that it is possible to keep Eye in modern without breaking anything else, either, as it is a very specific tribal mishra's workshop that works for over costed Eldrazi.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
"One of the arguments I heard a million times on stream during Pro Tour Oath of the Gatewatch is "give the metagame time to prepare." To me this feels false. Do we really believe that the best Magic players in the world spent two weeks preparing for Modern and everyone except the 8% simply missed the Eldrazi deck, to the point where the didn't prepare at all for it? To me that logic seems shaky at best. While it is true that the deck will have a huge target on its back moving forward, I've seen pros talking about the Eldrazi deck on social media for months, so to assume that they just didn't prepare for it seems questionable at best. ?
This quote is exactly how I feel about modern at the moment. When most pros are calling the deck busted and calling for emergency bans, it's because they have tested against it for awhile. Looks like we have to wait til April just like when Delver was busted with Treasure Cruise to play modern again. Til then enjoy nothing but aggro and non interactive combo decks. I'll probably have to mainboard Spreading seas as a 4 of and play 2-3 ghost quarters in my land base to even play modern.
Decks I'm playing in Modern right now:
URB Grixis Reveler (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-grixis-reveler/)
UB Faeries (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/ub-fae-2/)
UW Azorious Control (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-ojutai-control-2/)
Basically, it would be like them banning eye, Temple, smasher, mimic and TKS in this set, then realizing they were printing something even more broken, all while players were leaving the game in droves
UWRjeskai nahiri UWR
UBRgrixis titi UBR
UBRgrixis delverUBR
UR ur kikimite UR
EDH
RUG Riku of Two Reflections RUG
UBR Marchesa, the Black Rose UBR
UBRGYidris, Maelstrom Wielder UBRG
UBRJeleva, Nephalia's ScourgeUBR
If they wait they can obtain more data to do the best (not that they know how to analyze data :cough: Splinter Twin :cough: Wild Nacatl), because that's the correct way to do things. I feel that is really busted and it's going to be banned, but feeling it just isn't enough from a technical point of view. Besides, having more evidence helps them to make the banning more 'robust', and thus acceptable by the comunity.
20 TOMBS IF YOU PLAY VESUVA. BRUTAL
Why would you play Restore Balance over Living End to combat Eldrazi? I'm curious since I piloted both decks in the past.
Doesn't Eldrazi use relic and nihil spellbomb? Living End doesn't take having the graveyard exiled very well, but restore balance wouldn't have to worry bout that.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Living End also has the problem of Chalice at 0. Restore Balance does too, but at least it only has to kill the Chalice, as opposed to Living End which has to kill both an active Chalice and deal with any active Relics and Spellbombs.
Affinity
Colorless Eldrazi
UR Eldrazi
Colorless Eldrazi
Angel Chord
UR Eldrazi
UR Eldrazi
Affinity
Colorless Eldrazi
To be clear, I don't think that Wizards will or should emergency ban Eldrazi (although I selfishly would like them to), but I'm pretty certain that they will in April.
Well you could maindeck Ingot Chewer to fight the artifacts and you allready play Beast Within, together with Fulminator Mage as a LD package, it comes down to just resolving a single Living End that will then simply explode all the lands they have and it seals the game.
Playing Kolaghan's Command in Living End might also help with that, as it destroys artifacts and buybacks some of the cycling creatures.
So you "can" play quite a lot to beat the artifacts (thats potentially 12 artifact destroyers you could maindeck), so a Chalice 0 shouldnt bother you too much, as you can destroy it before going in the Living End phase. Might be a hell of a deck if all your matchups are Affinity and Eldrazi with Chalice.
Relic of Progenitus is certainly annoying, especially if they get multiples and it will remove a bunch of your early cyclers. But in the end, you just need to survive, resolve a Living End and get the land destruction going, so they cant rebuild after.
Probably not as bad as it might first look, if the deck adapts.
With a heavy focus on LD you should also have a nice matchup against Tron, potentially hitting the artifacts from them (like a turn 1 Expedition map getting eaten by your Ingot Chewer, could be sweet).
WUBRG#BlackLotusMatterWUBRG
👮👮👮 #BlueLivesMatter 👮👮👮
The birthing pod argument is consistent, every new creature would break the deck again and again. I have concerns about stoneforge mystic for similar reasons equipment design would have limitations as not to break modern.. although right now batterskull is worse than reality smasher.. and the pro tour uncovered the problem with Eye of ugin a card build specifically to cast large creatures but wizards apparently forgot it existed when they made a ton of powerful mid-range colourless eldrazi.
Sword of the meek, is so weak dies to every common sideboard card. Okay Lantern control is that the deck we are worried about abusing this? In someways it would be merciful, end the game way quicker, the same sideboard hate for the deck as a whole works here.
Ancestral visions... but twin will play it.. not any more even with an unban of twin.. it would help the control decks considerably more. Also remand is a thing oh and if it survives an eye banning processors can return it.
Dig through time... I don't like this as much as visions, It helps another combo deck, Jeskai ascendancy a lot, probably helps twin more than visions, is awkward for delver variants and storm not where as good as TC for them, still feels more combo than control.
Bloodbraid elf... Seems like something they might unban, it was no the culprate of the jund domination, I am actually not sure what it would do, perhaps push the definition of control and format policing over to Jund, would a temur midrange control deck appear if you also unbanned visions?. Undecided on this.
Ban: Eye of Ugin
Unban: Sword of the meek, Ancestral visions, Splinter twin
I'd be a bit worried about a blueing of the format, I'd try this then unban bloodbraid elf if green mid range struggles, but I'd be hopeing these unbans just give more good match ups hopefully.
Since no one actually wants to play modern until Eye is banned, perhaps play some unsanctioned modern with some of these banned cards to see what happens.. the format is broken anyway..
Pioneer:UR Pheonix
Modern:U Mono U Tron
EDH
GB Glissa, the traitor: Army of Cans
UW Dragonlord Ojutai: Dragonlord NOjutai
UWGDerevi, Empyrial Tactician "you cannot fight the storm"
R Zirilan of the claw. The solution to every problem is dragons
UB Etrata, the Silencer Cloning assassination
Peasant cube: Cards I own
the mana that it generates alone without any drawbacks is worthy of a ban also...
times are changing... information travels a lot faster than it even did back in 2009... the game is a lot more mature so by a lot of measures the type of effect that these lands are having and results are unprecedented.... and extraordinary circumstances need extraordinary measures.... the longer they wait the more damage they threaten to do to the game...
I loathe creatures! Praise Prison and Land Destruction!
My Peasant Cube (looking for feedback)
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
My article tomorrow will speak directly to this. There is strong evidence to suggest Modern's attendance will not suffer in the longterm, and that Wizards can use the two months to make the proper ban. The risks of waiting are very low. The costs of premature action could be very high, so Wizards is doing the right thing in waiting.
I pretty much disagree on all points. Modern is in complete limbo, I wouldn't advise anyone close to me to actively spend money on modern products or tournies until this gets sorted.
Do you have any evidence to suggest Modern can't recover from a two month period of potential instability? I've crunched a lot of attendance numbers and I can't see any realistic risk. But I can see significant risk to Wizards a) banning the wrong card because they don't have enough data to pick the right one, and b) banning too early and setting a precedent that emergency bans can happen again. Modern's attendance will recover. The format will be fine. But this shortsighted and kneejerk response to the Eldrazi is wildly risky and we should be thankful Wizards is levelheaded enough to wait.
What are the risks other than breaking the generally ban time line? This deck is already warping the meta.
I loathe creatures! Praise Prison and Land Destruction!
My Peasant Cube (looking for feedback)
The nature of the format predicts an adaptation. This doesnt mean a good thing. Remember UR Delver with ancestral recall? We adapted, but in a warping way.
I think we wont be able to adapt properly so the deck can stay around. I would love Eldrazi to stay but it doesnt seem healthy for the format.
I can envision the next change by april or june/july (i dont remember which one): - Eldrazi Temple Banned
- Ancestral Vision unbanned.
This counts as we stand right now. Not by march obviously.
SSG is a major ofender to the format politics, but banning it would cause so many decks to die/become almost unplayable ala Amulet bloom. (This goes to Grishoalbrand, Ad nauseam, Eldrazi, super fringe stuff, etc).
I dont think they want to kill that many decks in one go considering none of them have won significantly. (This is true for decks that absolutely need SSG, Eldrazi just ramps to Chalice and Reallity Smasher, it isnt a 100% vital part of the deck).