Does anyone look at the new Eldrazi cards from Oath and think it's going to be a tier 1 deck to push Jund and Junk completely out of the meta?
Tron is already beyond well positioned to push jund or junk out of the meta given enough time.
The problem is it's worst match ups got worse. Mainly burn and affinity gunning it down. I doubt the meta game is going to devolve completely but their should be a big shift toward tron eldrazi and than aggro decks as players try to beat them.
I don't really care about specific cards being banned. I have the card pool and resources to move to other decks or fill in the lost slots and keep going without missing much of a beat. But I absolutely detest what it says about the format when cards like Twin leave. I initially signed up for Modern because I didn't have the duals for Legacy and wanted a non-rotating format.
The way the Legacy format is managed is what I expected and wanted from Modern. And can you really blame me? Modern was billed as a solution to the accessibility issues that plagued Legacy and labeled a non-rotating format. All Magic players had an assumption about what a non-rotating format was and what it entailed, and it looked like Legacy and Vintage but with a different card pool. Then BAM all of a sudden they're treating this format differently than any other non-rotating format.
Add me to the list of folks who don't care at all whether there's a Modern PT but want a more hands-off approach to the banlist.
Do you actively ignore what other people write? Or do you simply misunderstand? Modern events would be amazing. Events which showcase Modern specifically and are not tied to the Pro Tour. Things like a Modern Cup and the Modern Masters GP. We should have MORE Modern events (something SCG has definitely jumped on). And as long as they aren't these contrived new-player-salesman events like the Pro Tour, it probably wouldn't be facing such thin and arbitrary bans every year.
Nope I just dont agreee. Watching the same match ups round after round doesnt sound amazing to me.
Then stay in Standard. We don't need you in Modern.
it is important for modern to have a separate identity from legacy, but in that right it also must have its own identity from standard. does a format where the best deck "rotates" every year sound much different from standard? and at that, by disrupting the meta once a year, will modern ever be able to settle into its own true identity?
I think this IS it's identity, and it's one very different from every other format. I think micro rotations that keep down power creep and the meta fresh are good. Decks constantly have to rethink about how to attack, boards are constantly changing, cards come in and out of power. It's a HUGE card pool but the game feels very... alive. It's adaptive. It's continually fresh. I'm into it. If others aren't, sure. Legacy is GREAT, don't get me wrong, but it doesn't feel AT ALL like modern. When you play a deck in legacy, you're playing a deck that might have existed close to a decade, often with very few changes. That certainly has some pluses and minuses, but if you've played and enjoyed modern AT ALL in the last year, then none of that is what you're into modern for because it plays out so differently.
Does it sound different from standard then? 100%. It's not even REMOTELY similar. We lost two cards. Two. Standard loses a few hundred at a time. Mana bases change. Archetypes become completely unplayable. Money is gained and lost very quickly.
Does anyone look at the new Eldrazi cards from Oath and think it's going to be a tier 1 deck to push Jund and Junk completely out of the meta?
I fear it will also push fair aggro decks like Zoo out of the meta as well. I've been testing a version that can fairly consistently land a turn 2 though knot seer and a turn 3 reality smasher. I don't see how any sort of midrange or Zoo deck can keep up with that.
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Current Modern decks BGW Junk / URB Grixis Shadow / RGB Lantern Control / WUBCBant Eldrazi
Current Legacy decks BUG Shardless BUG / UWR Predict Miracles / RUG Canadian Thresh / WRBG 4c Loam UB Reanimator
Okay, so, part of the reason for the ban is that they want the Pro tour to be more exciting, and more brew-y.
Why not have a special ban list for the pro tour specifically? Instead of banning Splinter Twin for everyone, just make it banned for the pro tour.
If something is genuinely a format wide problem, ban it, but if you just want to shake up the pro tour, a format wide ban seems to be the equivalent putting a tack into the wall with a sledge-hammer.
...magic is actually a planeswalker DUEL, does cracking eggs sounds like a way to win a duel to you? or Lantern, wtf is that mage even supposed to be? what sort of magic does he use? boredomancy?)
No creativity, no imagination... In a duel between two mages, what better target for a mage than the opposing mage himself instead of his creatures and incantations?
Written by another member a long time ago:
Two wizards face off. The first, a calm, collected wizard that seems to show no interest in what is happening; across from him a cocky, grinning master of red and green magics.
The red wizard makes the first move, calling forth horrible, mindless beasts and cunning goblins to ruthlessly attack his foe. The calm mage endures a few close calls, a bad scrape, and a glancing blow that nearly rips his arm off, but before long he has set up his defensive spells and the monsters can't get through to him.
Cursing the cowardly magician, the red mage racks his brain for a spell to get through his opponent's barrier and... nothing. He tries to recall a spell he once learned but all that flashes through his head is a glimpse of a land he once visited.
Shaking his head as if to drive the distractions from his mind he focuses again and tries to recall another spell, one of vicious destruction that has pulled him out of many difficult situations. Again, nothing. He remembers learning the spell, but instead of incantations all his mind sees is an old forest he passed through years ago.
Now panicking, he tries to come up with anything, any spell or any memory, anything to show him that he existed once and still exists. At first he clings to a few precious memories; even if he doesn't have his spells, he still has his humanity. But soon, those are gone too. Memories of his friends and loved ones are gone, replaced only with images of towering mountains. Eventually not a single memory remains. This poor man doesn't know even his own name. All knowledge of what he was, is, and would be are gone, replaced only with images of majestic landscapes that play in his mind with vivid detail. From there, it does not take long before his mind shatters.
He curls up on the ground and cries, openly sobbing from a great feeling of loss, though over what he can not recall. His quiet opponent simply sighs, though out of boredom or sadness it is unclear, and casually saunters over to the broken mage to put him out of his misery.
(flavor by Brojimbo)
Now carry on with the thread, no need to disturb the 65+ page Twin-A-Ton frenzy to talk about Lantern.
the calm and collected mage is exactly the fantasy of the tyical blue mage who ideally no matter how much flames the red one summons his counterspells protect him
as for lantern there's nothing calm and collected about it, it's all about having the nerve to show up with such a deck and troll opponents with twice your skill much like Zac did with BBD and then shake hands despite you've got to know deep inside what the other guy thinks of you
anyways enough of trollomancy/boredomancy (till your next reply at least), if you want to sell the calm and collected mage to new palyers you sell them Jace,card draw and counterspells, which happen to be immensly popular, no 'normal' person would look at the mtg card pool and say 'wow look at this lantern, that's what i want to play!', the only selling point to it is it's troll/oddball factor, certain people for instance feel smarter when playing oddball decks
Whatever you say bill. Hate the game, not the player.
TL;DR: Any URx Deck was either Twin or subpar, so it did hurt diversity a lot, and you actually had 3/4th of a year to notice Wizards actually tried doing something vs Twin (their attempt was Rending Volley, and that did not work ).
If I can safely play an URx control/tempo deck with, I don't know, Keranos, I would have since it would have cost me 2/3 slots instead of 10. And also I would have had a good MU versus Twin, one of the most played deck.
But sadly it was a no-go because of all the fast linear and non interactive strategy that modern is full of. So I have to sacrify 10 slots for a combo finisher.
You are completely missing the point of the article by comparing Lightning Bolt with Splinter Twin. Yes, Lightning Bolt sees play in many red decks in modern for 1 reason only: It is the best removal spell in red.
As for Twin, it was the only good choice of finishing a game. All other strategies in URx were being dominated by the following question: Is this better than Twin? So either you played Twin, or you didn't play it and everyone would ridicule your deck for not including Twin ... That hurts diversity. The difference between Bolt being played and Twin being played is that there are actually red decks that do not play Bolt, because it's not the ONLY strategy dominating the archetype.
"there are actually red decks that do not play Bolt"
Can you list some red decks that don't play Bolt?
Living End is in Jund colors, no bolt. (Plays Beast Within and LE for that)
Grisholbrand is BR, no bolt. (Very few lists might rarely be seen packing 1-4 in the sb, it just wants to combo over your creatures)
Restore Balance, no bolt. (Wants to combo for the sweep)
Slivers, no bolt. (Wants to overwhelm you in creatures)
RW Lockdown, no bolt. (Plays Helix for the lifegain)
"the deck that shall not be named", no bolt. (Plays Pyrite Spellbomb or bolt upgraded.)
I don't think anyone is saying these bans are "spinning a wheel" random, it's that Splinter Twin did not explicitly break any of the rules of Modern described and communicated to the public by Wizards themselves. Therefore, we can conclude that ANY top tier deck, which is successful and popular, will be banned for nothing more than BEING successful and popular. These ramifications are much more terrifying than simply the shock of banning a pillar of Modern. And it has a lot more impact than banning decks which blatantly and obviously break rules (notice that no one is at all surprised or upset with Summer Bloom's ban).
I FULLY disagree with this assertion. Splinter Twin did MUCH more to the modern metagame than win a little bit for a short period of time - Twin has dominated modern for almost the entirety of the format,
that's bull*****
When I started modern (late 2012), Twin wasn't even tier 1 and all the blue players played Jeskai Geist and Jeskai Control instead. What a ridiculous claim that twin has always dominated modern. So Jund, Pod, Affinity, never existed then? Seriously no one ever thought Twin was "dominant", ESPECIALLY before 2014-15, when at points it completely dropped off because fair decks were a larger percentage of the meta. As the unfair decks pushed out fair decks, Twin got better because it preyed on the unfair decks and kept them under control. Now they banned Twin don't expect to see any fair decks in modern doing well unless something bizarre happens
I guess it's up to interpretation. Twin is third in all time GP wins and top 8s and has won half of the Modern Pro Tours. It also completely dominated both States tournaments last year as well as the RPTQs. So.. yeah. If you don't think that's dominating, then ok. It's definitely a subjective claim. It's definitely gone in and out of popularity over the years, but there are very few periods of modern where it wouldn't be considered tier 1.
You're saying Infect is a menace. Others are calling for an Affinity ban. Other people are convinced Eye of Ugin needs an emergency ban. None of this means anything. When we see a deck become oppressive, the meta will react as such. If the deck is still oppressive, it will eat a ban. Until then, figure out how to beat it.
I already knew tron being predicted as possibility the alpha deck to use as enough to push jund and junk out the meta, Eldrazi is enough to push it to 2,5 tier status, I fear
I already said it, but I think banning Twin is going to have very large reprucussions, bigger than pods, which was fine.
The banning of twin is going to lead the wotc to ban quite a few other things to balance the meta out.
Blue has no win con to keep up with these crazy fast decks. Am I seriously going to cast Keranos turn 5 against tron, Eldrazi, burn, affinity, and infect? Urx had to slot 12 bad cards as a win con, that's pretty huge.
Now we have turn 4 ulamogs, possibly turn 2 knotseers, affinity at blazing speeds playing master of etheriums.
After studying the new eldrazi cards I'm less and less optimistic about this format for the next few months. I'm glad I happened to have bought affinity before it exploded in popularity again this summer, wotc just killed Twin and Jund is looking poor
I bought a combo deck, a fair good stuff deck and an aggro deck in case of meta shifts, but I'm super Dissapointed that I'm feeling pigeonholed to play affinity now for the next 3 to 6 months
if you want to sell the calm and collected mage to new palyers you sell them Jace,card draw and counterspells, which happen to be immensly popular,
Hmm, you really seem to come from a diffrent reality than i come from. In my reality, wizards dont have good counterspells, because a lot of players (especially new ones) find them "unfun". That somehow contradicts "immensly popular".
Can you either explain the contradiction or show me the way to your reality?
in my 'reality' blue is the most polarizing color in the mtg community: apart from the fact that it's easy to confirm this by experience and also by occasional polls, some of them took place here, blue won both the polls of the favorite and the least favorite among players: a good chunk of the community loves it and another good one hates it
Jace has been the most pushed and promoted planeswalker in mtg, as most players seem to identify with him and blue has always been the color with the most 'loyal' playerbase, there are people who would never play a non-blue deck, something hard to find in other colors, in other words blue is the iconic wizard and as in all fantasy settings most players identify with wizards/mages (gamers are usually introverted,smart-or smartassess-, condescending, seemingly educated/academic,loving of debates and discussions,nerdy,not very physical types and usually consider their mind their stronger point) therefore in any such game blue is naturally the most popular color
ofc there's another part of the playerbase, who just hates blue, for the same reasons the others love blue: because it's a color that's focused on inaction and preventing your opponent from doing something cool rather than doing something cool yourself, also many consider the combo decks it's involved in unfair
as for the lack of counters, this is just a PoV: modern counters are excellent at countering what they should be : spells, having counterspells being almost as good as removal at removing creatures is just a bad design
so the new design is mostly: counters deal with mostly spells, removal deals with permanents, which makes perfect sense, unlike the 'counters deal with everything as long as they're timely' design
being both a BGx and a URx pilot i can tell you that most of the time both my counters and my discards were aimed at non-creature cards and modern counters are excellent at this with Dispel being amazingly effective
what wizards does not promote is draw-go: this is objectively unfun, ofc it cannot come close to the 'unfun levels' of our beloved lantern due to lacking lockdown/troll elements but still having someone who's deckbuilding goal is to extract virtual card advantage by blanking most of your interaction (and then claim that he champions interactive magic,that's boarderline hypocrisy...) and stall the game in an unatural manner due to the irrational decision of playing with no wincons other than snap/bolt/colonnade, yes that archetype is not promoted by wizards, why would it be?
another huge point is that any creatureless deck is innately very hard to interact with, that's why creatureless shells are discouraged, for me interacting with Esper draw go is about as hard as it is interacting with Storm, essentially i just side out most of my removal and overload on threats and what little counters/discard i have in the sb
as for wizards not printing good blue cards, sorry for my bluntness but if you think that you have a lot to learn... Snapcaster Mage IS the most powerful card in modern, Serum Visions even as the weakest 1 cmc cantrips is still pwoerful: in fact 1 cmc cantrips are innately broken in certain shells (mostly combo but not only) that's why 2/3 are already banned, Dispel is a subtle beast of effeciency, Jace, Vryn's Prodigy is a snapcaster/confidant hybrid that can win games on it's own, most of the cards in the BL are Blue, they were so pushed they got banned: JTMS,TC,DTT,AV,Ponder,Preordain, Mental Misstep
in an abstract blue is still the most powerful color in Modern with Black being a breath away from catching up for the first time
also in Legacy or a no BL Modern, not playing blue is hampering your odds at victory and that includes counterspells, historically Blue has been THE magic color, the others were mostly to support it
you know the merfolk joke? 'islandwalk is the best ability in the game, if your opponent knows anything about magic he's going to be playing lots of islands'
Blue is not the must powerful color in modern. Throughout moderns history, green based decks have always been the most popular and most powerful. It took Treasure Cruise and DTT to push blue over the top. Twin was the exception, now it's gone.
Wotc needs the Standard player to want to play Modern too.
Ähm, i have a question. Why? WotC needs Standardplayers to play standard and limited, why should they play modern (from a companys few). Sure, if they played all 3 formats, that would be good, but i dont think too many modern players play standard. Actually, i read time and again that they dont want to play standard, and thats the reason they move to modern. So i think to expect that is a litte bit unrealistic.
But why would WotC want more standard players to move into modern instead of playing standard?
Look at the history of formats in the life of the game. Wotc considers a format successful bu attendance numbers and how much product it moves. Once a format starts to stagnate on attendance or moving product, Wotc washes their hands of it.
If Wotc doesnt see Modern having players play multiple formats, or stops selling product, Modern is in trouble. We have seen from the past wotc is not afraid of pulling the plug on a format they deem as a failure. In the case of Legacy and old Extended, the player base liked(s) the formats but Wotc sees them as failures because of both or one of the reasons above.
Wotc needs players to play all formats to consider them successful. Wotc needs those formats to move product, whether it be singles at the LGS/online store level or sealed product.
It is pretty clear Wotc doesnt want Modern to be close to Legacy from the way they have handled the format from the get go. They want Modern to be a tweener format between Standard and Legacy. Something different from both formats, its own identity. Wotc said it was going to handle the ban list differently then in the past, and they have showed it. Some dont agree or like it. I think its fine.
In short, what a group of players desire from a format, is not profitable or seen as a success to Wotc.
And where does your evidence that Grixis the best fair deck come from? It never came even close to the success of BGx at its peak and contrary to BGx was only tier 1 for a short amount of time.
if you want to sell the calm and collected mage to new palyers you sell them Jace,card draw and counterspells, which happen to be immensly popular,
Hmm, you really seem to come from a diffrent reality than i come from. In my reality, wizards dont have good counterspells, because a lot of players (especially new ones) find them "unfun". That somehow contradicts "immensly popular".
Can you either explain the contradiction or show me the way to your reality?
in my 'reality' blue is the most polarizing color in the mtg community: apart from the fact that it's easy to confirm this by experience and also by occasional polls, some of them took place here, blue won both the polls of the favorite and the least favorite among players: a good chunk of the community loves it and another good one hates it
Jace has been the most pushed and promoted planeswalker in mtg, as most players seem to identify with him and blue has always been the color with the most 'loyal' playerbase, there are people who would never play a non-blue deck, something hard to find in other colors, in other words blue is the iconic wizard and as in all fantasy settings most players identify with wizards/mages (gamers are usually introverted,smart-or smartassess-, condescending, seemingly educated/academic,loving of debates and discussions,nerdy,not very physical types and usually consider their mind their stronger point) therefore in any such game blue is naturally the most popular color
ofc there's another part of the playerbase, who just hates blue, for the same reasons the others love blue: because it's a color that's focused on inaction and preventing your opponent from doing something cool rather than doing something cool yourself, also many consider the combo decks it's involved in unfair
as for the lack of counters, this is just a PoV: modern counters are excellent at countering what they should be : spells, having counterspells being almost as good as removal at removing creatures is just a bad design
so the new design is mostly: counters deal with mostly spells, removal deals with permanents, which makes perfect sense, unlike the 'counters deal with everything as long as they're timely' design
being both a BGx and a URx pilot i can tell you that most of the time both my counters and my discards were aimed at non-creature cards and modern counters are excellent at this with Dispel being amazingly effective
what wizards does not promote is draw-go: this is objectively unfun, ofc it cannot come close to the 'unfun levels' of our beloved lantern due to lacking lockdown/troll elements but still having someone who's deckbuilding goal is to extract virtual card advantage by blanking most of your interaction (and then claim that he champions interactive magic,that's boarderline hypocrisy...) and stall the game in an unatural manner due to the irrational decision of playing with no wincons other than snap/bolt/colonnade, yes that archetype is not promoted by wizards, why would it be?
another huge point is that any creatureless deck is innately very hard to interact with, that's why creatureless shells are discouraged, for me interacting with Esper draw go is about as hard as it is interacting with Storm, essentially i just side out most of my removal and overload on threats and what little counters/discard i have in the sb
as for wizards not printing good blue cards, sorry for my bluntness but if you think that you have a lot to learn... Snapcaster Mage IS the most powerful card in modern, Serum Visions even as the weakest 1 cmc cantrips is still pwoerful: in fact 1 cmc cantrips are innately broken in certain shells (mostly combo but not only) that's why 2/3 are already banned, Dispel is a subtle beast of effeciency, Jace, Vryn's Prodigy is a snapcaster/confidant hybrid that can win games on it's own, most of the cards in the BL are Blue, they were so pushed they got banned: JTMS,TC,DTT,AV,Ponder,Preordain, Mental Misstep
in an abstract blue is still the most powerful color in Modern with Black being a breath away from catching up for the first time
also in Legacy or a no BL Modern, not playing blue is hampering your odds at victory and that includes counterspells, historically Blue has been THE magic color, the others were mostly to support it
you know the merfolk joke? 'islandwalk is the best ability in the game, if your opponent knows anything about magic he's going to be playing lots of islands'
Blue is not the must powerful color in modern. Throughout moderns history, green based decks have always been the most popular and most powerful. It took Treasure Cruise and DTT to push blue over the top. Twin was the exception, now it's gone.
Blue IS the most powerful color in modern legal sets and for a considerable amount of time (including all of 2015) in Modern, as it has access to the most powerful cards, it was always kept down by bans, the only period when it wasn't was with DRS legal
also note that decks that got axed very early (like Storm) were blue too
Green was probably tied for the top when DRS and Pod were legal, now it's lacking in many aspects, despite still having some excellent cards
as of now, the best blue shell is banned, but all the powerfull blue cards are legal, so blue might be in the most interesting position of being the color with the most potential and out of a T1 shell, i would love that, as it's really a brewers/innovators paradise
also Grixis is the most pwoerful fair deck in Modern (all the best cards save goyf, the best card advantage and the wider answers save decay are all in there), yet it's poorly positioned in the meta, any meta shift could see this changed
In modern legal sets /= in modern. Blue is not strong in modern. Its only way of dealing with creatures is Cryptic command and Spell Snare, which one cant come down till turn 4 and cant permanently deal with a resolved creature, and the other is narrow.
Currently 46% of decks are using green mana, and 4 of the top ten cards in modern are green
Edit: that was incorrect, its 4 of the top ten creatures, my mistake
yes i was refering to counterspells too, so congrats for noticing the 'and' part, these are the removals and counterspells that have seen play in major event Top 8s
assuming i didn't forget anything, cause i wrote them by memory and i was generous enough to include stuff like Kcommand and electrolyze are removal, i even added Havrest Pyre and Galvanic Blast to the list to the list, we have 14 playable removals spread around all 5 colors and 9 counterspells all of them being blue, so give me a break pls? only 1 card is missing Counterspell
oh i actaully did forget something Deprive and Logic Knot for a total of 11 playable counterspells
Of those counterspells, 3 of them are soft counters that get significantly worse as the game progresses, 4 of them are conditional for spell type or cost, one costs you a land, one requires your graveyard, and one costs 4 mana. In a format full of degenerate decks that kill quickly AND extremely powerful decks that go over the top, how, in any way, are these counterspells supposed to combat all of them? Especially without backing them up with a strong win condition?
Look at the history of formats in the life of the game. Wotc considers a format successful bu attendance numbers and how much product it moves. Once a format starts to stagnate on attendance or moving product, Wotc washes their hands of it.
How about that Modern Masters Grand Prix in Vegas? How many attendance records did they break? What was it... 8,000 or so players? 16,000 players if you combine the events in Europe and Japan? Yeah, Modern has a real problem with losing popularity!
If Wotc doesnt see Modern having players play multiple formats, or stops selling product, Modern is in trouble. We have seen from the past wotc is not afraid of pulling the plug on a format they deem as a failure. In the case of Legacy and old Extended, the player base liked(s) the formats but Wotc sees them as failures because of both or one of the reasons above.
Wotc needs players to play all formats to consider them successful. Wotc needs those formats to move product, whether it be singles at the LGS/online store level or sealed product.
There is a disconnect in logic here. At least somthing I am missing. If a format is popular and people are playing it... Wizards would stop supporting it... because people aren't playing OTHER formats? And you cite Legacy, a format plagued by $3,000-5,000 decks and a reserved list, or Extended, a format that suffered the same artificial rotation problems we're complaining about now? Standard is the #1 basis on which product is moved through the LGS or online retailers. Be it in cases and cases cracked for singles or sealed product sold to new players. How does an LGS get support for Wizards for older products (like Modern staples) if they can't order them directly from Wizards? Those cards are out of print and can only be found on the secondary markets; something Wizards has no control over. I'm baffled at how you constitute "supporting" a format with moving product, when by definition, the product needed is unavailable. Unless you are supporting more supplemental Modern support like Modern Masters or printing Modern staples in Duel Decks and Commander products or hosting more wildly successful events like the Las Vegas Modern Masters GP. That would be great, and appreciated by pretty much all players. How else does Wizards "support" the format?
It is pretty clear Wotc doesnt want Modern to be close to Legacy from the way they have handled the format from the get go. They want Modern to be a tweener format between Standard and Legacy. Something different from both formats, its own identity. Wotc said it was going to handle the ban list differently then in the past, and they have showed it. Some dont agree or like it. I think its fine.
In short, what a group of players desire from a format, is not profitable or seen as a success to Wotc.
You said yourself: "Watching the same match ups round after round doesnt sound amazing to me." Why should Wizards appeal to your desires? Especially since that is available Standard? It's like a car company's product lineup. You have different products for different players. If you try to appease everyone with every product and you end up with a bunch of diluted trash and not sell any of it. People play Modern because they do not want a rotating meta, they don't want rotating decks, they are OK with seeing the same decks as long as there is slow evolution over time with each new set printed (something that was EXTREMELY prevalent in 2015). The problems Legacy deals with has nothing to do with a stale format (Sensei's Divining Top and Brainstorm would have been banned long ago if that were the case), it has to do with the cost-prohibitive nature of cards ineligible for reprinting.
You truly amaze me with your doom and gloom about the Modern format, despite the fact that it has never been as popular as it is now. Hopefully it remains this way, but the result of the Twin banning has done much more to damage player confidence in the format than ANY perceived "staleness," as shown by record turnouts at every modern event of the past year, in addition to local growth and support of Modern as a weekly format.
All of your "evidence" are just your opinions, there are no statistical facts that prove it.
... yes i suppose that's the stongest arguement one who doesn't know how to play the game can ever have against one who does... sorry for this particularly rude statement but when i'm saying things that are borderline common sense and someone asks for statistical facts this will be my reply from now on
do you see any better competitively viable way against a broad field to extract card advantage other than Kcommand + Snapcaster/Jace sheanigans? if so i'm willing to buy this idea for a considerable amount of money, in fact you should take it to the next GP immediately cause if you are any good it might win it for you (just don't troll me pls saying that souls are a 4 for 1, or that living end can be a 1 for 20+)
can you think of any deck you can't interact with when you have a combination of disruption + counterspells + removal + sweepers + edicts? what's left? you could even handle TNN with those tools and all of them are both broad and very aggresively costed, do i need to argue on why IoK is efficient?
do you see any bad card in Grixis lists? even if you do, you can replace it easily
as for the 2 GPs i mentioned i don't think i can get more 'factual' than that, they're recorded tournament results
And now when you can't backup your statements as always you resort to:"everyone who disagrees with me is stupid and can't play the game". I'm really starting to wonder why you are still allowed to post here.
I wasnt going to respond to you anymore, but maybe I can get you to understand something.
I am not saying Wotc has to do things to my desires, I am saying Wotc's vision for the format seems to be closer to mine then yours. I like the direction the format is taking and how they have handled the format so far. There are others like me enjoying the direction of the format and how Wotc has handled the format to date. I think this is very hard for some to understand when they are so upset at certain moves. What pleases one, annoys and angers another. There is no way to change this.
As I have said prior, Wotc cannot please everyone, but they have made it pretty clear from their actions what they want the format to be and the direction they are taking it. Why try and change something that others are enjoying just for your sake? What you want, and what I want from the format are 2 very different things. One of use is going to be content and play, while the other one wont be and probably wont.
bill, blue players want catch all answers even thought Wotc has been pretty clear about they are not going to print those catch all unconditional answers under 3 mana. Instead of the player base adjusting to the restrictions, they complain they want something that Wotc has told us numerous times is not going to happen. Its been going on for a few years now.
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Tron is already beyond well positioned to push jund or junk out of the meta given enough time.
The problem is it's worst match ups got worse. Mainly burn and affinity gunning it down. I doubt the meta game is going to devolve completely but their should be a big shift toward tron eldrazi and than aggro decks as players try to beat them.
The way the Legacy format is managed is what I expected and wanted from Modern. And can you really blame me? Modern was billed as a solution to the accessibility issues that plagued Legacy and labeled a non-rotating format. All Magic players had an assumption about what a non-rotating format was and what it entailed, and it looked like Legacy and Vintage but with a different card pool. Then BAM all of a sudden they're treating this format differently than any other non-rotating format.
Add me to the list of folks who don't care at all whether there's a Modern PT but want a more hands-off approach to the banlist.
Standard: lol no
Modern: BG/x, UR/x, Burn, Merfolk, Zoo, Storm
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Delver (BUG, RUG, Grixis), Landstill, Depths Combo, Merfolk
Vintage: Dark Times, BUG Fish, Merfolk
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion / Krenko, Mob Boss / Stonebrow, Krosan Hero
Then stay in Standard. We don't need you in Modern.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
I think this IS it's identity, and it's one very different from every other format. I think micro rotations that keep down power creep and the meta fresh are good. Decks constantly have to rethink about how to attack, boards are constantly changing, cards come in and out of power. It's a HUGE card pool but the game feels very... alive. It's adaptive. It's continually fresh. I'm into it. If others aren't, sure. Legacy is GREAT, don't get me wrong, but it doesn't feel AT ALL like modern. When you play a deck in legacy, you're playing a deck that might have existed close to a decade, often with very few changes. That certainly has some pluses and minuses, but if you've played and enjoyed modern AT ALL in the last year, then none of that is what you're into modern for because it plays out so differently.
Does it sound different from standard then? 100%. It's not even REMOTELY similar. We lost two cards. Two. Standard loses a few hundred at a time. Mana bases change. Archetypes become completely unplayable. Money is gained and lost very quickly.
So, yeah. I like it. Just my .02.
I fear it will also push fair aggro decks like Zoo out of the meta as well. I've been testing a version that can fairly consistently land a turn 2 though knot seer and a turn 3 reality smasher. I don't see how any sort of midrange or Zoo deck can keep up with that.
BGW Junk / URB Grixis Shadow / RGB Lantern Control / WUBCBant Eldrazi
Current Legacy decks
BUG Shardless BUG / UWR Predict Miracles / RUG Canadian Thresh / WRBG 4c Loam
UB Reanimator
Why not have a special ban list for the pro tour specifically? Instead of banning Splinter Twin for everyone, just make it banned for the pro tour.
If something is genuinely a format wide problem, ban it, but if you just want to shake up the pro tour, a format wide ban seems to be the equivalent putting a tack into the wall with a sledge-hammer.
Whatever you say bill. Hate the game, not the player.
Living End is in Jund colors, no bolt. (Plays Beast Within and LE for that)
Grisholbrand is BR, no bolt. (Very few lists might rarely be seen packing 1-4 in the sb, it just wants to combo over your creatures)
Restore Balance, no bolt. (Wants to combo for the sweep)
Slivers, no bolt. (Wants to overwhelm you in creatures)
RW Lockdown, no bolt. (Plays Helix for the lifegain)
"the deck that shall not be named", no bolt. (Plays Pyrite Spellbomb or bolt upgraded.)
Infect is about to become a menace.
I guess it's up to interpretation. Twin is third in all time GP wins and top 8s and has won half of the Modern Pro Tours. It also completely dominated both States tournaments last year as well as the RPTQs. So.. yeah. If you don't think that's dominating, then ok. It's definitely a subjective claim. It's definitely gone in and out of popularity over the years, but there are very few periods of modern where it wouldn't be considered tier 1.
You're saying Infect is a menace. Others are calling for an Affinity ban. Other people are convinced Eye of Ugin needs an emergency ban. None of this means anything. When we see a deck become oppressive, the meta will react as such. If the deck is still oppressive, it will eat a ban. Until then, figure out how to beat it.
Banning bolt would kill jund, make burn, affinity and aggro decks better...
Eldrazi is techicallh a fair deck, but it's border line. I honestly believe it's going to push junk and Jund out completely
Why on earth would anyone play a fair deck in this meta? Does anyone really think fair decks will do well?
Snapcaster bolt shannigans are good, but it's definitely less good without the psychological fear of tapping out
Maybe some crazy tempo, prowess deck will emerge but if not then control is dead in the meta outside of scapeshift
I already said it, but I think banning Twin is going to have very large reprucussions, bigger than pods, which was fine.
The banning of twin is going to lead the wotc to ban quite a few other things to balance the meta out.
Blue has no win con to keep up with these crazy fast decks. Am I seriously going to cast Keranos turn 5 against tron, Eldrazi, burn, affinity, and infect? Urx had to slot 12 bad cards as a win con, that's pretty huge.
Now we have turn 4 ulamogs, possibly turn 2 knotseers, affinity at blazing speeds playing master of etheriums.
After studying the new eldrazi cards I'm less and less optimistic about this format for the next few months. I'm glad I happened to have bought affinity before it exploded in popularity again this summer, wotc just killed Twin and Jund is looking poor
I bought a combo deck, a fair good stuff deck and an aggro deck in case of meta shifts, but I'm super Dissapointed that I'm feeling pigeonholed to play affinity now for the next 3 to 6 months
Blue is not the must powerful color in modern. Throughout moderns history, green based decks have always been the most popular and most powerful. It took Treasure Cruise and DTT to push blue over the top. Twin was the exception, now it's gone.
UWRjeskai nahiri UWR
UBRgrixis titi UBR
UBRgrixis delverUBR
UR ur kikimite UR
EDH
RUG Riku of Two Reflections RUG
UBR Marchesa, the Black Rose UBR
UBRGYidris, Maelstrom Wielder UBRG
UBRJeleva, Nephalia's ScourgeUBR
Look at the history of formats in the life of the game. Wotc considers a format successful bu attendance numbers and how much product it moves. Once a format starts to stagnate on attendance or moving product, Wotc washes their hands of it.
If Wotc doesnt see Modern having players play multiple formats, or stops selling product, Modern is in trouble. We have seen from the past wotc is not afraid of pulling the plug on a format they deem as a failure. In the case of Legacy and old Extended, the player base liked(s) the formats but Wotc sees them as failures because of both or one of the reasons above.
Wotc needs players to play all formats to consider them successful. Wotc needs those formats to move product, whether it be singles at the LGS/online store level or sealed product.
It is pretty clear Wotc doesnt want Modern to be close to Legacy from the way they have handled the format from the get go. They want Modern to be a tweener format between Standard and Legacy. Something different from both formats, its own identity. Wotc said it was going to handle the ban list differently then in the past, and they have showed it. Some dont agree or like it. I think its fine.
In short, what a group of players desire from a format, is not profitable or seen as a success to Wotc.
In modern legal sets /= in modern. Blue is not strong in modern. Its only way of dealing with creatures is Cryptic command and Spell Snare, which one cant come down till turn 4 and cant permanently deal with a resolved creature, and the other is narrow.
Currently 46% of decks are using green mana, and 4 of the top ten cards in modern are green
Edit: that was incorrect, its 4 of the top ten creatures, my mistake
UWRjeskai nahiri UWR
UBRgrixis titi UBR
UBRgrixis delverUBR
UR ur kikimite UR
EDH
RUG Riku of Two Reflections RUG
UBR Marchesa, the Black Rose UBR
UBRGYidris, Maelstrom Wielder UBRG
UBRJeleva, Nephalia's ScourgeUBR
Of those counterspells, 3 of them are soft counters that get significantly worse as the game progresses, 4 of them are conditional for spell type or cost, one costs you a land, one requires your graveyard, and one costs 4 mana. In a format full of degenerate decks that kill quickly AND extremely powerful decks that go over the top, how, in any way, are these counterspells supposed to combat all of them? Especially without backing them up with a strong win condition?
How about that Modern Masters Grand Prix in Vegas? How many attendance records did they break? What was it... 8,000 or so players? 16,000 players if you combine the events in Europe and Japan? Yeah, Modern has a real problem with losing popularity!
There is a disconnect in logic here. At least somthing I am missing. If a format is popular and people are playing it... Wizards would stop supporting it... because people aren't playing OTHER formats? And you cite Legacy, a format plagued by $3,000-5,000 decks and a reserved list, or Extended, a format that suffered the same artificial rotation problems we're complaining about now? Standard is the #1 basis on which product is moved through the LGS or online retailers. Be it in cases and cases cracked for singles or sealed product sold to new players. How does an LGS get support for Wizards for older products (like Modern staples) if they can't order them directly from Wizards? Those cards are out of print and can only be found on the secondary markets; something Wizards has no control over. I'm baffled at how you constitute "supporting" a format with moving product, when by definition, the product needed is unavailable. Unless you are supporting more supplemental Modern support like Modern Masters or printing Modern staples in Duel Decks and Commander products or hosting more wildly successful events like the Las Vegas Modern Masters GP. That would be great, and appreciated by pretty much all players. How else does Wizards "support" the format?
You said yourself: "Watching the same match ups round after round doesnt sound amazing to me." Why should Wizards appeal to your desires? Especially since that is available Standard? It's like a car company's product lineup. You have different products for different players. If you try to appease everyone with every product and you end up with a bunch of diluted trash and not sell any of it. People play Modern because they do not want a rotating meta, they don't want rotating decks, they are OK with seeing the same decks as long as there is slow evolution over time with each new set printed (something that was EXTREMELY prevalent in 2015). The problems Legacy deals with has nothing to do with a stale format (Sensei's Divining Top and Brainstorm would have been banned long ago if that were the case), it has to do with the cost-prohibitive nature of cards ineligible for reprinting.
You truly amaze me with your doom and gloom about the Modern format, despite the fact that it has never been as popular as it is now. Hopefully it remains this way, but the result of the Twin banning has done much more to damage player confidence in the format than ANY perceived "staleness," as shown by record turnouts at every modern event of the past year, in addition to local growth and support of Modern as a weekly format.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
And now when you can't backup your statements as always you resort to:"everyone who disagrees with me is stupid and can't play the game". I'm really starting to wonder why you are still allowed to post here.
I wasnt going to respond to you anymore, but maybe I can get you to understand something.
I am not saying Wotc has to do things to my desires, I am saying Wotc's vision for the format seems to be closer to mine then yours. I like the direction the format is taking and how they have handled the format so far. There are others like me enjoying the direction of the format and how Wotc has handled the format to date. I think this is very hard for some to understand when they are so upset at certain moves. What pleases one, annoys and angers another. There is no way to change this.
As I have said prior, Wotc cannot please everyone, but they have made it pretty clear from their actions what they want the format to be and the direction they are taking it. Why try and change something that others are enjoying just for your sake? What you want, and what I want from the format are 2 very different things. One of use is going to be content and play, while the other one wont be and probably wont.