This is my current list. So far I've pulled the turn 4 Ulamog off in 2 out of 21 games. I think Void Winnower is necessary so we have an out if they bring an extraction effect to deal with Ulamog. Sanctum of Ugin gives the deck even more inevitability. The weakest link is, by far, Kozilek's Channeler. HS makes them boltable and I usually cast him with 4 mana available, so I'd rather be casting Conduit/Sower. This also reflects CP's concerns: I feel we lack a good 4cc Eldrazi and OGW may give us what we need. More testing is needed for sure and the sideboard still needs some tweaking. So far, Infect is the thoughest matchup. I'll keep you guys posted!
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Modern:WU WU Control | WBG Abzan Company Frontier:UBR Grixis Control | BRG Jund Delirium
I tried some games without Map, and I had some pretty awkward draws that could have easily been fixed by map, so I think it's definitely good in some quantities. I still don't think 4 of them are right. Drawing 2 early on is definitely also awkward
Take Bogles or UG Infect: it happens that they don't draw a second threat after the first one was dealt with. Or simply they mull because they don't have one of their 12 bodies in hand. Take Tron and Amulet: sometimes you draw the wrong half of your deck. These decks have to mulligan hard rather often to get a playable opening hand. The latest example on camera was Ali Aintrazi with Tron who mulled to 4 and won against Jeff Hoogland's Kiki Chord.
It's part of the nature of such a deck. It's even more awkward to have 2 Urborgs, and if you don't have Urborg, 2 Eyes. I'm repeating myself, but Maps help these hands being keepable. With 2 Maps in your opener, it's not that bad because any eldrazi top deck is going to be castable, and that's the most important part to me.
Even against Jund that's supposed to be a good MU, if they Abrupt Decay your HS and Fukminator Mage your lands, you just can't cast anything relevant and they'll beat you with Tarmogoyfs.
But let me sum it up: you're playing 26 lands and 2 Maps, Baugh played 25 and 3, I play 24 and 4. It's just a matter of what one prefers: more land drops with less tutors, or less lands for more tutors. I think none of these choices is significantly better. Right ?
So far, Infect is the thoughest matchup. I'll keep you guys posted!
Thought-Knot Seer and Warping Wail will help you in the mainboard, enjoy them ! because of Infect, Burn, Twin and Chord decks being very popular, I like to have a couple Spellskite in my sideboard. This is close to the best SB card in modern anyway, most tier decks play some in their 75.
I personally cut Duress down to 2 copies in my board, after checking out nearly 20 SB plans amongst the decks in the format.
I have been testing this list, and when it works it does crazy stuff. But I also feel like it can just stall out and has no real way of recovering. In the processor version, the cantrips can help you get out of tough spots. I feel like this deck needs something like that. Any thoughts?
By cantrips, you think of the UB version with Serum Visions ? The archetype relies on strong topdecks on their own, that's a reason to play Reality Smasher and go up to 20 creatures. I guess you stall more when you play only 16 creatures and a bunch of reactive spells. The deck wants to be proactive, otherwise it may indeed stall plain.
I have been testing this list, and when it works it does crazy stuff. But I also feel like it can just stall out and has no real way of recovering. In the processor version, the cantrips can help you get out of tough spots. I feel like this deck needs something like that. Any thoughts?
I played maybe 30 practice games last night with friends and random internet players, and I agree that something is still missing from this deck, but what are you talking about when you say cantrips? I don't know of any cantrips in <>Bx processors... Do you just mean the processing triggers?
Anyway, the main problem I've been facing is getting stuck at 4 or 5 mana when the critical amount of mana for this deck is 6. 6 mana is crucial because (1) it allows you to cast Conduit and Sower, which makes casting Ulamog the following turn relatively easy and (2) it's roughly when you can start making two plays in a single turn. Often, I have found that I draw only one copy of either Eye, Temple, or Heartless Summoning early on, and then I lose a turn or two of tempo hoping to topdeck a land, which sometimes leads to losses. This got worse when we replaced Kozilek's Channeler with Thought-Knot Seer, but Channeler is just so much worse than either Conduit or Thought-Knot Seer that I can't imagine it's right to bring that card back. So what do we do? I can think of a couple things:
1) Run more Warping Wail and Expedition Map - these cards enable the small mana boost you need to get over the hump when you're stuck.
2) Run less Oblivion Sower. Honestly, I've been thinking about doing this for a while since it has been underperforming without Relic - he gets 0 or 1 land reasonably often in this shell, which is not great, and rate for the body has never been that spectacular. But as far as this discussion is concerned, lowering the number of these by some amount will ease the 6-drop glut. I think I may try cutting this guy altogether just for testing, although it is likely that that is completely wrong.
3) Try to splash green for Ancient Stirrings. I'm not in love with this idea, but it may be necessary for consistency.
1) We probably have a different experience with the deck since I'm playing 4 of each cards. Wail is also a card that lets me keep an average hand. The opponent will barely care of the token so I see it as a Sakura-Tribe Elder. I think this is how good the card is. I recommand players to try Wails x4 before making blind splits with other removal spells.
2) I tend to agree with you. Sometimes we don't get lands with him resulting in an underwhelming play. I want to try Bane of Bala Ged in a 2-2 split with Sower. If it's not good, too slow and/or too expensive, I might just go down to 18 creatures (2 Sowers only). In the end, he might be just good enough to keep the full set.
3) It'd be good to have some feedback from the few BG players here. The World Breaker is more attractive than Bane !
I don't know of any cantrips in <>Bx processors... Do you just mean the processing triggers?
Both Relic of Progenitus and Scrabbling Claws cantrip when you pop them, replacing themselves. That's why they're the go-to Graveyard hosers in those builds.
1) We probably have a different experience with the deck since I'm playing 4 of each cards. Wail is also a card that lets me keep an average hand. The opponent will barely care of the token so I see it as a Sakura-Tribe Elder. I think this is how good the card is. I recommand players to try Wails x4 before making blind splits with other removal spells.
2) I tend to agree with you. Sometimes we don't get lands with him resulting in an underwhelming play. I want to try Bane of Bala Ged in a 2-2 split with Sower. If it's not good, too slow and/or too expensive, I might just go down to 18 creatures (2 Sowers only). In the end, he might be just good enough to keep the full set.
3) It'd be good to have some feedback from the few BG players here. The World Breaker is more attractive than Bane !
haven't gotten a chance to test the GB yet since i'm waiting on cards to come in the mail + i have 6 exams I gotta write over the next 2 weeks ahah. Sorry!
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Modern: C Serum Eldrazi Legacy: CEldrazi C Mud W Soldier Stompy R Bread (big red stompy) WU Spirit Blade WUG Meat Hooks WUBGR Blue Dredge
So, after all, I'm playing a Wastes. I've been playing VS Blood Moon all day to figure out how strong it was against my list. Well it wrecks me. I have 12 spells that need colorless mana and they are pretty strong against URx Twin and Grixis Control. Without a Wastes fetchable through a Map, the best I can is respond to Moon with a Wail and cast one colorless spell with it. After that I'm done for the rest of the game and it multiplies my dead draws. Since Moon is a SB strat anyway for Amulet and Tron, I want to keep my 4 Maps to be sure I can recover.
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So, after all, I'm playing a Wastes. I've been playing VS Blood Moon all day to figure out how strong it was against my list. Well it wrecks me. I have 12 spells that need colorless mana and they are pretty strong against URx Twin and Grixis Control. Without a Wastes fetchable through a Map, the best I can is respond to Moon with a Wail and cast one colorless spell with it. After that I'm done for the rest of the game and it multiplies my dead draws. Since Moon is a SB strat anyway for Amulet and Tron, I want to keep my 4 Maps to be sure I can recover.
Thanks! For now, I know its not the same but, you can check out what the avg. openings hands are like here. I uploaded the deck unto tapped and theres a playtest function on it! So far I like it (I really like 2-3x endless ones in this deck because it fills the rolls of mana sink during those awkward turns)
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Modern: C Serum Eldrazi Legacy: CEldrazi C Mud W Soldier Stompy R Bread (big red stompy) WU Spirit Blade WUG Meat Hooks WUBGR Blue Dredge
I have been testing this list, and when it works it does crazy stuff. But I also feel like it can just stall out and has no real way of recovering. In the processor version, the cantrips can help you get out of tough spots. I feel like this deck needs something like that. Any thoughts?
I played maybe 30 practice games last night with friends and random internet players, and I agree that something is still missing from this deck, but what are you talking about when you say cantrips? I don't know of any cantrips in <>Bx processors... Do you just mean the processing triggers?
Anyway, the main problem I've been facing is getting stuck at 4 or 5 mana when the critical amount of mana for this deck is 6. 6 mana is crucial because (1) it allows you to cast Conduit and Sower, which makes casting Ulamog the following turn relatively easy and (2) it's roughly when you can start making two plays in a single turn. Often, I have found that I draw only one copy of either Eye, Temple, or Heartless Summoning early on, and then I lose a turn or two of tempo hoping to topdeck a land, which sometimes leads to losses. This got worse when we replaced Kozilek's Channeler with Thought-Knot Seer, but Channeler is just so much worse than either Conduit or Thought-Knot Seer that I can't imagine it's right to bring that card back. So what do we do? I can think of a couple things:
1) Run more Warping Wail and Expedition Map - these cards enable the small mana boost you need to get over the hump when you're stuck.
2) Run less Oblivion Sower. Honestly, I've been thinking about doing this for a while since it has been underperforming without Relic - he gets 0 or 1 land reasonably often in this shell, which is not great, and rate for the body has never been that spectacular. But as far as this discussion is concerned, lowering the number of these by some amount will ease the 6-drop glut. I think I may try cutting this guy altogether just for testing, although it is likely that that is completely wrong.
3) Try to splash green for Ancient Stirrings. I'm not in love with this idea, but it may be necessary for consistency.
If you're running out of gas, you need more ramp. Try playing 3-4x map and 1-2x mind stone. I would cut 1 discard spell and 1 creature removal from your list to fit them in. You have more than plenty removal/discard spells.
So excited this thread exists. I tried to bring up Heartless Summoning in the main Bx Eldrazi thread and was ridiculed for it. Looking forward to trying out some of these decks.
@iostream:
I think 3 map is good because heartless is pretty much another 2 lands.
@Complex Pants
Maybe Relic and Wasteland strangler can be used, but that means maybe only 3 heartless? Gitaxian probe? Mind Stone :S
Or there is that new guy,5/5 now 4/4 With Trample Haste n 241, Or Kozelic +draw
*Ideal
T1 - Urborg + Thought/inq
T2 - Eye + Mind stone + Matter reshaper
T3 - Temple + Heartless = 7mana Eldrazi
or 3 5mana Eldrazi
Hey guys, first time posting, but I've been following the forum for a while. Ive been testing various versions of B<>x Eldrazi and have bought in to BW and Heartless Eldrazi in paper. For the life of me I cant decide which versions is better. However, since the topic was just recently discussed I thought I'd share a BG<> post Oath version of the deck utilizing Ancient Stirrings (Which is absolutely amazing in this deck!) and World Breaker (Also Awesome) that I've had some success with. The deck gets there color wise by relying on basically all non-basic lands. Here is the list-
Mainboard
4 Ancient Stirrings
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Forest
4 Conduit of Ruin
4 Eldrazi Temple
4 Heartless Summoning
4 Eye of Ugin
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Slaughter Pact
3 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Tendo Ice Bridge
2 Thoughtseize
4 Llanowar Wastes
4 Overgrown Tomb
3 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
3 Oblivion Sower
2 Reality Smasher
3 World Breaker
3 Warping Wail
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
Sideboard This obviously has a lot of room to be tweaked but in this version I think its necessary to run 4 Ratchet Bombs to deal with Blood Moon. It also helps a lot with some of our other tougher matchups like Merfolk, Afinity, Infect (kindof), ZOO, Abzan Company, etc.
2 Memoricide
1 Surgical Extraction
1 All is Dust
3 Ghost Quarter
2 Go for the Throat
2 Feed The Clan
4 Ratchet Bomb
Anyway give it a test and let me know what you guys think. Thanks
The green version is interesting. There's a few things that bother me though:
- you can't get Heartless Summonings with Stirrings;
- Expedition Map is slower but safer to fix the right mana;
- It constrains the build to less <> spells, so potentially a worse build.
World Breaker is still a great card though, but at this point, any splash could give an edge in certain MUs.
By my side, a pretty miserable Tron MU, Wurmcoil Engine being one thing I can't get through initially. Amulet Bloom can race with a Primeval Titan as well. As I don't want to lose to these cards and don't lose tempo, I won't play Slaughter Pact or Go for the Throat but I'll cut 2 Oblivion Sowers for 2 Doom Blade. I don't care of any black creature in the format so far, so Blade seems better than Go which doesn't hit Wurmcoil and Affinity and Inkmoth Nexus.
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The green version is interesting. There's a few things that bother me though:
- you can't get Heartless Summonings with Stirrings;
- Expedition Map is slower but safer to fix the right mana;
- It constrains the build to less <> spells, so potentially a worse build.
World Breaker is still a great card though, but at this point, any splash could give an edge in certain MUs.
By my side, a pretty miserable Tron MU, Wurmcoil Engine being one thing I can't get through initially. Amulet Bloom can race with a Primeval Titan as well. As I don't want to lose to these cards and don't lose tempo, I won't play Slaughter Pact or Go for the Throat but I'll cut 2 Oblivion Sowers for 2 Doom Blade. I don't care of any black creature in the format so far, so Blade seems better than Go which doesn't hit Wurmcoil and Affinity and Inkmoth Nexus.
the point of using ancient stirrings is that it is a cheaper map of expedition with the added benefit of finding a threat if drawn late game, so either way, both cards can't grab a heartless summoning regarless
I do agree however that it does constrain the build to less <> spells. I do like the tendo ice bridges and may need to get myself a playset to test the GB version i made
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Modern: C Serum Eldrazi Legacy: CEldrazi C Mud W Soldier Stompy R Bread (big red stompy) WU Spirit Blade WUG Meat Hooks WUBGR Blue Dredge
[quote from="headminerve »" url="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/deck-creation-modern/661562-b-heartless-eldrazi?comment=38"]The green version is interesting. There's a few things that bother me though:
- you can't get Heartless Summonings with Stirrings;
- Expedition Map is slower but safer to fix the right mana;
- It constrains the build to less <> spells, so potentially a worse build.
World Breaker is still a great card though, but at this point, any splash could give an edge in certain MUs.
By my side, a pretty miserable Tron MU, Wurmcoil Engine being one thing I can't get through initially. Amulet Bloom can race with a Primeval Titan as well. As I don't want to lose to these cards and don't lose tempo, I won't play Slaughter Pact or Go for the Throat but I'll cut 2 Oblivion Sowers for 2 Doom Blade. I don't care of any black creature in the format so far, so Blade seems better than Go which doesn't hit Wurmcoil and Affinity and Inkmoth Nexus.
World Breaker really helps the Tron matchup and gives us another way to curve out and crush them by dropping a T3 World Breaker and Exiling one of their Tron Pieces. Or by exilng a Wurmcoil. It has also been great in the sense that it can be fetched by Conduit and played in those times where we are stuck on 7 or 8 mana. It seems like it has made the deck much more consistent, as it was lacking a really good 7 drop to search for that does something on cast.
Ancient Stirrings is just flat out amazing for the deck because it let's us dig deep for our land combo, a late or mid game creature, and even a kill spell in warping wail/ All is Dust/ Ratchet Bomb. It never misses in the deck so the fact that it doesn't find summoning doesn't really hurt it.
What number would you say is a good number of colorless sources for the deck. The previous list runs 13 with 4 Stirrings to dig for them?
[quote from="headminerve »" url="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/deck-creation-modern/661562-b-heartless-eldrazi?comment=38"]The green version is interesting. There's a few things that bother me though:
- you can't get Heartless Summonings with Stirrings;
- Expedition Map is slower but safer to fix the right mana;
- It constrains the build to less <> spells, so potentially a worse build.
World Breaker is still a great card though, but at this point, any splash could give an edge in certain MUs.
By my side, a pretty miserable Tron MU, Wurmcoil Engine being one thing I can't get through initially. Amulet Bloom can race with a Primeval Titan as well. As I don't want to lose to these cards and don't lose tempo, I won't play Slaughter Pact or Go for the Throat but I'll cut 2 Oblivion Sowers for 2 Doom Blade. I don't care of any black creature in the format so far, so Blade seems better than Go which doesn't hit Wurmcoil and Affinity and Inkmoth Nexus.
World Breaker really helps the Tron matchup and gives us another way to curve out and crush them by dropping a T3 World Breaker and Exiling one of their Tron Pieces. Or by exilng a Wurmcoil. It has also been great in the sense that it can be fetched by Conduit and played in those times where we are stuck on 7 or 8 mana. It seems like it has made the deck much more consistent, as it was lacking a really good 7 drop to search for that does something on cast.
Ancient Stirrings is just flat out amazing for the deck because it let's us dig deep for our land combo, a late or mid game creature, and even a kill spell in warping wail/ All is Dust/ Ratchet Bomb. It never misses in the deck so the fact that it doesn't find summoning doesn't really hurt it.
What number would you say is a good number of colorless sources for the deck. The previous list runs 13 with 4 Stirrings to dig for them?
</blockquote>
Right now my land base for BG has 13 C sources, 16 B sources, and 13 (14 if including cavern for world breaker) G sources. The tendo ice bridges and llanowar wastes are effectively tri-coloured lands for the deck. Also in the first 3-4 turns you usually only need 1 B OR G source, which is perfect (before dropping a big dude). Updated list is here
I have to note that having only 13 C sources does make it tough to cast a turn 2 TKS reliably, so i might drop TKS to a 3 of instead 4x
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Modern: C Serum Eldrazi Legacy: CEldrazi C Mud W Soldier Stompy R Bread (big red stompy) WU Spirit Blade WUG Meat Hooks WUBGR Blue Dredge
@jrankin12 and @mambosong: thanks for your insights.
Yeah Breaker killing a Wurmcoil is very appealing... And I agree having a good 7-drop is great with Conduit. It has Reach too, which is one weakness in the monoB version. If you jam this against Affinity, Tokens and even more Infect, it probably stabilizes enough.
@Jrankin, how do you feel about not running Verdant Catacombs and what about Oblivion Sower ? I'm less and less tempted to play Sower, even though he's good in the big-creature mirrors.
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I was wondering, couldn't kozilek's translator be the new channeler? I mean, i know it only produces 1, but its out of bolt range and can attack the same turn it produces mana
I was also thinking of adding in Endbringer, it seem's like it can put in a lot of work, wish it costed 5 though... ahah
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Modern: C Serum Eldrazi Legacy: CEldrazi C Mud W Soldier Stompy R Bread (big red stompy) WU Spirit Blade WUG Meat Hooks WUBGR Blue Dredge
tougher matchups like Merfolk, Afinity, Infect (kindof), ZOO, Abzan Company, etc.
For the BG version, seems like Feed the Clan in the sideboard is way better than Vampiric Link, or in your case, better than no lifegain at all. It's one of the rare decks where we can gain 10 life out of the spell !
I was wondering, couldn't kozilek's translator be the new channeler? I mean, i know it only produces 1, but its out of bolt range and can attack the same turn it produces mana
I was also thinking of adding in Endbringer, it seem's like it can put in a lot of work, wish it costed 5 though... ahah
They're considerations... I really believe we don't need Channeler slots anymore with the lower curve overall. Losing a couple life in the process of playing spells is damageable too. I think it's a bit under the standard we want. Endbringer might just be a worse Conduit of Ruin. That one lets you draw THE card that ends the game (for no additional mana), and probably stops your opponent from attacking with his main creature anyway. If not, Endbringer actually does nothing before the next turn, so it doesn't stop Primetime, a flying Cranial Extraction or a Wurmcoil... Beautiful card on paper but I feel like we only want hammer-effect cards.
That's why World Breaker is probably miles better than Bane of Bala Ged.
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@jrankin12 and @mambosong: thanks for your insights.
Yeah Breaker killing a Wurmcoil is very appealing... And I agree having a good 7-drop is great with Conduit. It has Reach too, which is one weakness in the monoB version. If you jam this against Affinity, Tokens and even more Infect, it probably stabilizes enough.
@Jrankin, how do you feel about not running Verdant Catacombs and what about Oblivion Sower ? I'm less and less tempted to play Sower, even though he's good in the big-creature mirrors.
I wish the manabase could work without 4 Overgrown Tombs but I cant find another land that works to let us pay turn one Thoughtseize or Ancient Stirrings besides maybe Gemstone Mine since we run 4 Urborg, tomb of Yawgmoth too? As far as I can tell there is no room for the Catacombs unless you want to run fewer Eye of Ugin and Urborgs like in the BW builds. The more I test the more I see how good World Breaker is in this shell. Its so easy to get to 7 mana but its a really tight manabase.
@jrankin12 and @mambosong: thanks for your insights.
Yeah Breaker killing a Wurmcoil is very appealing... And I agree having a good 7-drop is great with Conduit. It has Reach too, which is one weakness in the monoB version. If you jam this against Affinity, Tokens and even more Infect, it probably stabilizes enough.
@Jrankin, how do you feel about not running Verdant Catacombs and what about Oblivion Sower ? I'm less and less tempted to play Sower, even though he's good in the big-creature mirrors.
I wish the manabase could work without 4 Catacombs but I cant find another land that works to let us pay turn one Thoughtseize or Ancient Stirrings besides maybe Gemstone Mine since we run 4 Urborg, tomb of Yawgmoth too? The more I test the more I see how good World Breaker is in this shell. Its so easy to get to 7 mana but its a really tight manabase.
This is why in my previous post i said i was not worrying about ancient stirrings. the mana base just isnt there. If you only worry about world breaker the mana base gets a lot more doable. If only tainted wood was modern legal.
Don't play Surgical Extraction-type effects in a non-Processing build unless you are boarding them specifically for combo or other single-card-dependent decks.
Psyched to see a Heartless thread, I too have bought into the paper versions of <>BW and <>B Heartless.
I was wondering, couldn't kozilek's translator be the new channeler? I mean, i know it only produces 1, but its out of bolt range and can attack the same turn it produces mana
I was also thinking of adding in Endbringer, it seem's like it can put in a lot of work, wish it costed 5 though... ahah
Endbringer is a great draw against any type of control deck. I'm going to run 1-2 in my sidebaord. The fact that he does everything is a great card. He either pings, draws you cards or stops something from killing you (or you getting an attack through). The fact that he costs 6 is awkward considering he's not fetchable by Conduit and he's not easily casted on the 5 mana awkward phase (Temple/Eye/Regular Land - or combo of that).
I think this card is good - really good. Especially since he can just straight up draw you 2 cards a turn.
@jrankin12 and @mambosong: thanks for your insights.
Yeah Breaker killing a Wurmcoil is very appealing... And I agree having a good 7-drop is great with Conduit. It has Reach too, which is one weakness in the monoB version. If you jam this against Affinity, Tokens and even more Infect, it probably stabilizes enough.
@Jrankin, how do you feel about not running Verdant Catacombs and what about Oblivion Sower ? I'm less and less tempted to play Sower, even though he's good in the big-creature mirrors.
I wish the manabase could work without 4 Catacombs but I cant find another land that works to let us pay turn one Thoughtseize or Ancient Stirrings besides maybe Gemstone Mine since we run 4 Urborg, tomb of Yawgmoth too? The more I test the more I see how good World Breaker is in this shell. Its so easy to get to 7 mana but its a really tight manabase.
This is why in my previous post i said i was not worrying about ancient stirrings. the mana base just isnt there. If you only worry about world breaker the mana base gets a lot more doable. If only tainted wood was modern legal.
I honestly haven't had a problem mana-wise with 4x tendo ice bridge and 4x llanowar wastes, 3 verdants, 1 over grown + 1 forest (13 sources). when it comes to casting stirrings. The math is there in terms of color support, should mathematically have about 85-90% chance of turn 1 green source according to a post i read in the main <>B Eldrazi thread (might've been the BW thread, i can't remember). ideally anydeck needs 14 sources of a reliable turn 1 of any color (reliable defined as >90% chance), so if you really want to be tight on the colors then remove the 1x cavern of souls i have for another overgrown tomb. the color support is there, at least mathematically
EDIT: found the source where the math is from, was in the mono b eldrazi thread posted by iostream
I stayed away from BW<>Processors cause of the mana, And I'm going to stay away from BG<> for the same reason. World Breaker is 3 mana less than Ulamog, which is sometimes a lot but not really in our case and he does half as much. We have thought-knot that can rip from their hand before something hits the field. Going green might make it slower. But see how yous go.
4 Kozilek's Channeler
4 Oblivion Sower
4 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
1 Void Winnower
4 Expedition Map
4 Heartless Summoning
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Thoughtseize
2 Go for the Throat
4 Eldrazi Temple
4 Eye of Ugin
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Bojuka Bog
2 Ghost Quarter
2 Sanctum of Ugin
1 Shizo, Death's Storehouse
4 Pithing Needle
3 Duress
2 Drown in Sorrow
2 Go for the Throat
2 Languish
2 Slaughter Pact
This is my current list. So far I've pulled the turn 4 Ulamog off in 2 out of 21 games. I think Void Winnower is necessary so we have an out if they bring an extraction effect to deal with Ulamog. Sanctum of Ugin gives the deck even more inevitability. The weakest link is, by far, Kozilek's Channeler. HS makes them boltable and I usually cast him with 4 mana available, so I'd rather be casting Conduit/Sower. This also reflects CP's concerns: I feel we lack a good 4cc Eldrazi and OGW may give us what we need. More testing is needed for sure and the sideboard still needs some tweaking. So far, Infect is the thoughest matchup. I'll keep you guys posted!
Frontier: UBR Grixis Control | BRG Jund Delirium
Take Bogles or UG Infect: it happens that they don't draw a second threat after the first one was dealt with. Or simply they mull because they don't have one of their 12 bodies in hand. Take Tron and Amulet: sometimes you draw the wrong half of your deck. These decks have to mulligan hard rather often to get a playable opening hand. The latest example on camera was Ali Aintrazi with Tron who mulled to 4 and won against Jeff Hoogland's Kiki Chord.
It's part of the nature of such a deck. It's even more awkward to have 2 Urborgs, and if you don't have Urborg, 2 Eyes. I'm repeating myself, but Maps help these hands being keepable. With 2 Maps in your opener, it's not that bad because any eldrazi top deck is going to be castable, and that's the most important part to me.
Even against Jund that's supposed to be a good MU, if they Abrupt Decay your HS and Fukminator Mage your lands, you just can't cast anything relevant and they'll beat you with Tarmogoyfs.
But let me sum it up: you're playing 26 lands and 2 Maps, Baugh played 25 and 3, I play 24 and 4. It's just a matter of what one prefers: more land drops with less tutors, or less lands for more tutors. I think none of these choices is significantly better. Right ?
Thought-Knot Seer and Warping Wail will help you in the mainboard, enjoy them ! because of Infect, Burn, Twin and Chord decks being very popular, I like to have a couple Spellskite in my sideboard. This is close to the best SB card in modern anyway, most tier decks play some in their 75.
I personally cut Duress down to 2 copies in my board, after checking out nearly 20 SB plans amongst the decks in the format.
Besides, I'm trying Crumbling Vestige as a 5th Tendo Ice Bridge. I finally don't like the Underground Sea in my 12th black source slot, and Mortuary Mire ETB-tapped effect really bothers me. Also Mire is a bad turn 1 land into Thoughtseize...
By cantrips, you think of the UB version with Serum Visions ? The archetype relies on strong topdecks on their own, that's a reason to play Reality Smasher and go up to 20 creatures. I guess you stall more when you play only 16 creatures and a bunch of reactive spells. The deck wants to be proactive, otherwise it may indeed stall plain.
Anyway, the main problem I've been facing is getting stuck at 4 or 5 mana when the critical amount of mana for this deck is 6. 6 mana is crucial because (1) it allows you to cast Conduit and Sower, which makes casting Ulamog the following turn relatively easy and (2) it's roughly when you can start making two plays in a single turn. Often, I have found that I draw only one copy of either Eye, Temple, or Heartless Summoning early on, and then I lose a turn or two of tempo hoping to topdeck a land, which sometimes leads to losses. This got worse when we replaced Kozilek's Channeler with Thought-Knot Seer, but Channeler is just so much worse than either Conduit or Thought-Knot Seer that I can't imagine it's right to bring that card back. So what do we do? I can think of a couple things:
1) Run more Warping Wail and Expedition Map - these cards enable the small mana boost you need to get over the hump when you're stuck.
2) Run less Oblivion Sower. Honestly, I've been thinking about doing this for a while since it has been underperforming without Relic - he gets 0 or 1 land reasonably often in this shell, which is not great, and rate for the body has never been that spectacular. But as far as this discussion is concerned, lowering the number of these by some amount will ease the 6-drop glut. I think I may try cutting this guy altogether just for testing, although it is likely that that is completely wrong.
3) Try to splash green for Ancient Stirrings. I'm not in love with this idea, but it may be necessary for consistency.
2) I tend to agree with you. Sometimes we don't get lands with him resulting in an underwhelming play. I want to try Bane of Bala Ged in a 2-2 split with Sower. If it's not good, too slow and/or too expensive, I might just go down to 18 creatures (2 Sowers only). In the end, he might be just good enough to keep the full set.
3) It'd be good to have some feedback from the few BG players here. The World Breaker is more attractive than Bane !
Both Relic of Progenitus and Scrabbling Claws cantrip when you pop them, replacing themselves. That's why they're the go-to Graveyard hosers in those builds.
haven't gotten a chance to test the GB yet since i'm waiting on cards to come in the mail + i have 6 exams I gotta write over the next 2 weeks ahah. Sorry!
C Serum Eldrazi
Legacy:
C Eldrazi
C Mud
W Soldier Stompy
R Bread (big red stompy)
WU Spirit Blade
WUG Meat Hooks
WUBGR Blue Dredge
So, after all, I'm playing a Wastes. I've been playing VS Blood Moon all day to figure out how strong it was against my list. Well it wrecks me. I have 12 spells that need colorless mana and they are pretty strong against URx Twin and Grixis Control. Without a Wastes fetchable through a Map, the best I can is respond to Moon with a Wail and cast one colorless spell with it. After that I'm done for the rest of the game and it multiplies my dead draws. Since Moon is a SB strat anyway for Amulet and Tron, I want to keep my 4 Maps to be sure I can recover.
Thanks! For now, I know its not the same but, you can check out what the avg. openings hands are like here. I uploaded the deck unto tapped and theres a playtest function on it! So far I like it (I really like 2-3x endless ones in this deck because it fills the rolls of mana sink during those awkward turns)
C Serum Eldrazi
Legacy:
C Eldrazi
C Mud
W Soldier Stompy
R Bread (big red stompy)
WU Spirit Blade
WUG Meat Hooks
WUBGR Blue Dredge
If you're running out of gas, you need more ramp. Try playing 3-4x map and 1-2x mind stone. I would cut 1 discard spell and 1 creature removal from your list to fit them in. You have more than plenty removal/discard spells.
Cheeri0sXWU
Reid Duke's Level One
Who's the Beatdown
Alt+0198=Æ
I think 3 map is good because heartless is pretty much another 2 lands.
@Complex Pants
Maybe Relic and Wasteland strangler can be used, but that means maybe only 3 heartless? Gitaxian probe? Mind Stone :S
Or there is that new guy,5/5 now 4/4 With Trample Haste n 241, Or Kozelic +draw
*Ideal
T1 - Urborg + Thought/inq
T2 - Eye + Mind stone + Matter reshaper
T3 - Temple + Heartless = 7mana Eldrazi
or 3 5mana Eldrazi
Legacy: Dark Depths, Pox, Eldrazi Agro
Vintage: Dark Depths, Grey Orge
Pauper: Faerie Ninja
7pt Highlander: BW Combo
EDH: Horobi, (t)Toshiro, (t)Isamaru
Mainboard
4 Ancient Stirrings
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Forest
4 Conduit of Ruin
4 Eldrazi Temple
4 Heartless Summoning
4 Eye of Ugin
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Slaughter Pact
3 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Tendo Ice Bridge
2 Thoughtseize
4 Llanowar Wastes
4 Overgrown Tomb
3 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
3 Oblivion Sower
2 Reality Smasher
3 World Breaker
3 Warping Wail
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
Sideboard This obviously has a lot of room to be tweaked but in this version I think its necessary to run 4 Ratchet Bombs to deal with Blood Moon. It also helps a lot with some of our other tougher matchups like Merfolk, Afinity, Infect (kindof), ZOO, Abzan Company, etc.
2 Memoricide
1 Surgical Extraction
1 All is Dust
3 Ghost Quarter
2 Go for the Throat
2 Feed The Clan
4 Ratchet Bomb
Anyway give it a test and let me know what you guys think. Thanks
- you can't get Heartless Summonings with Stirrings;
- Expedition Map is slower but safer to fix the right mana;
- It constrains the build to less <> spells, so potentially a worse build.
World Breaker is still a great card though, but at this point, any splash could give an edge in certain MUs.
By my side, a pretty miserable Tron MU, Wurmcoil Engine being one thing I can't get through initially. Amulet Bloom can race with a Primeval Titan as well. As I don't want to lose to these cards and don't lose tempo, I won't play Slaughter Pact or Go for the Throat but I'll cut 2 Oblivion Sowers for 2 Doom Blade. I don't care of any black creature in the format so far, so Blade seems better than Go which doesn't hit Wurmcoil and Affinity and Inkmoth Nexus.
the point of using ancient stirrings is that it is a cheaper map of expedition with the added benefit of finding a threat if drawn late game, so either way, both cards can't grab a heartless summoning regarless
I do agree however that it does constrain the build to less <> spells. I do like the tendo ice bridges and may need to get myself a playset to test the GB version i made
C Serum Eldrazi
Legacy:
C Eldrazi
C Mud
W Soldier Stompy
R Bread (big red stompy)
WU Spirit Blade
WUG Meat Hooks
WUBGR Blue Dredge
World Breaker really helps the Tron matchup and gives us another way to curve out and crush them by dropping a T3 World Breaker and Exiling one of their Tron Pieces. Or by exilng a Wurmcoil. It has also been great in the sense that it can be fetched by Conduit and played in those times where we are stuck on 7 or 8 mana. It seems like it has made the deck much more consistent, as it was lacking a really good 7 drop to search for that does something on cast.
Ancient Stirrings is just flat out amazing for the deck because it let's us dig deep for our land combo, a late or mid game creature, and even a kill spell in warping wail/ All is Dust/ Ratchet Bomb. It never misses in the deck so the fact that it doesn't find summoning doesn't really hurt it.
What number would you say is a good number of colorless sources for the deck. The previous list runs 13 with 4 Stirrings to dig for them?
Right now my land base for BG has 13 C sources, 16 B sources, and 13 (14 if including cavern for world breaker) G sources. The tendo ice bridges and llanowar wastes are effectively tri-coloured lands for the deck. Also in the first 3-4 turns you usually only need 1 B OR G source, which is perfect (before dropping a big dude). Updated list is here
I have to note that having only 13 C sources does make it tough to cast a turn 2 TKS reliably, so i might drop TKS to a 3 of instead 4x
C Serum Eldrazi
Legacy:
C Eldrazi
C Mud
W Soldier Stompy
R Bread (big red stompy)
WU Spirit Blade
WUG Meat Hooks
WUBGR Blue Dredge
Yeah Breaker killing a Wurmcoil is very appealing... And I agree having a good 7-drop is great with Conduit. It has Reach too, which is one weakness in the monoB version. If you jam this against Affinity, Tokens and even more Infect, it probably stabilizes enough.
@Jrankin, how do you feel about not running Verdant Catacombs and what about Oblivion Sower ? I'm less and less tempted to play Sower, even though he's good in the big-creature mirrors.
I was also thinking of adding in Endbringer, it seem's like it can put in a lot of work, wish it costed 5 though... ahah
C Serum Eldrazi
Legacy:
C Eldrazi
C Mud
W Soldier Stompy
R Bread (big red stompy)
WU Spirit Blade
WUG Meat Hooks
WUBGR Blue Dredge
For the BG version, seems like Feed the Clan in the sideboard is way better than Vampiric Link, or in your case, better than no lifegain at all. It's one of the rare decks where we can gain 10 life out of the spell !
They're considerations... I really believe we don't need Channeler slots anymore with the lower curve overall. Losing a couple life in the process of playing spells is damageable too. I think it's a bit under the standard we want.
Endbringer might just be a worse Conduit of Ruin. That one lets you draw THE card that ends the game (for no additional mana), and probably stops your opponent from attacking with his main creature anyway. If not, Endbringer actually does nothing before the next turn, so it doesn't stop Primetime, a flying Cranial Extraction or a Wurmcoil... Beautiful card on paper but I feel like we only want hammer-effect cards.
That's why World Breaker is probably miles better than Bane of Bala Ged.
I wish the manabase could work without 4 Overgrown Tombs but I cant find another land that works to let us pay turn one Thoughtseize or Ancient Stirrings besides maybe Gemstone Mine since we run 4 Urborg, tomb of Yawgmoth too? As far as I can tell there is no room for the Catacombs unless you want to run fewer Eye of Ugin and Urborgs like in the BW builds. The more I test the more I see how good World Breaker is in this shell. Its so easy to get to 7 mana but its a really tight manabase.
This is why in my previous post i said i was not worrying about ancient stirrings. the mana base just isnt there. If you only worry about world breaker the mana base gets a lot more doable. If only tainted wood was modern legal.
Crypt Ghast?
Don't play Surgical Extraction-type effects in a non-Processing build unless you are boarding them specifically for combo or other single-card-dependent decks.
Psyched to see a Heartless thread, I too have bought into the paper versions of <>BW and <>B Heartless.
Endbringer is a great draw against any type of control deck. I'm going to run 1-2 in my sidebaord. The fact that he does everything is a great card. He either pings, draws you cards or stops something from killing you (or you getting an attack through). The fact that he costs 6 is awkward considering he's not fetchable by Conduit and he's not easily casted on the 5 mana awkward phase (Temple/Eye/Regular Land - or combo of that).
I think this card is good - really good. Especially since he can just straight up draw you 2 cards a turn.
Modern:
Abzan Company
Abzan Midrange
GB Collected Elves
Legacy:
Junkblade
EDH:
Erebos, God of Black
You won't like Omnath when he's angry...
CEDH:
Meren, Clan of Vzlue
I honestly haven't had a problem mana-wise with 4x tendo ice bridge and 4x llanowar wastes, 3 verdants, 1 over grown + 1 forest (13 sources). when it comes to casting stirrings. The math is there in terms of color support, should mathematically have about 85-90% chance of turn 1 green source according to a post i read in the main <>B Eldrazi thread (might've been the BW thread, i can't remember). ideally anydeck needs 14 sources of a reliable turn 1 of any color (reliable defined as >90% chance), so if you really want to be tight on the colors then remove the 1x cavern of souls i have for another overgrown tomb. the color support is there, at least mathematically
EDIT: found the source where the math is from, was in the mono b eldrazi thread posted by iostream
C Serum Eldrazi
Legacy:
C Eldrazi
C Mud
W Soldier Stompy
R Bread (big red stompy)
WU Spirit Blade
WUG Meat Hooks
WUBGR Blue Dredge
Legacy: Dark Depths, Pox, Eldrazi Agro
Vintage: Dark Depths, Grey Orge
Pauper: Faerie Ninja
7pt Highlander: BW Combo
EDH: Horobi, (t)Toshiro, (t)Isamaru