This is a thread to discuss versions of the Modern <>B Eldrazi deck that eschew Processors in favor of more effects that decrease the mana cost of Eldrazi such as Heartless Summoning, Conduit of Ruin, and Kozilek's Channeler.
The principal advantage of this choice is to simplify the plan of the deck. Instead of having to put together three pieces to enable the top end (cost reduction effect + Relic effect + fatty), Heartless Eldrazi attempts to overload on cost reduction effects so that the 6+ cmc Eldrazi are reliably castable. A secondary advantage of this choice is to improve the overall card quality of the deck. The synergies do not require playing intrinsically unimpactful cards (e.g. Relic of Progenitus). This enables the deck to play off the top better by increasing its threat density (e.g. the deck often plays 4 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger).
The deck is not really a ramp deck like Tron despite superficial similarities. Just like the <>B, <>BR, and <>BW Eldrazi Processors decks, this deck plays 5-6 pieces of 1cmc discard and 4-6 pieces of removal, unlike traditional ramp decks. That is to say, it is an interactive deck. In this way, one can view it as a kind of midrange/ramp hybrid. I would like the discussion to focus on the deck from this perspective, rather than fostering constant and unproductive comparisons to decks like Tron that do not share similar strategic goals.
For reference, here is a list that was piloted to a top 64 finish by Jacob Baugh. A deck tech can be found here. The decklist is:
It has been noted before that painlands like Underground River and the card Tendo Ice Bridge slot well in this deck because we want to play a high density of lands that produce both colorless mana and black mana early on and untapped, but we don't actually run many black cards, so it's OK if we don't have reliable drawback-free access to black. We need to be able to reliably cast turn 1 Thoughtseize with this deck. With that in mind, here is a draft of the deck that I think could achieve these goals. The sideboard is rough and needs major improvement:
This gives us 15 sources of B and <> each, which is very good.
I only put a pair of Reality Smasher because it doesn't really forward the main game plan, which is slamming Ulamog, but it is nice to have access to a quicker source of pressure versus many decks.
In limited testing, this version has felt very smooth. Thought-Knot Seer has been great.
i think the smasher would be great because either: they waste 2 card trying to get rid of it (leaving less removal for when we smash down ulamog) OR they keep taking face damage from it to save removal for ulamog
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Modern: C Serum Eldrazi Legacy: CEldrazi C Mud W Soldier Stompy R Bread (big red stompy) WU Spirit Blade WUG Meat Hooks WUBGR Blue Dredge
That's obviously true, but I don't know how many copies are right and what you would replace to add more copies. The curve is already a little bit ambitious, and you can't cut any more Conduits since you need them to find Ulamog and maintain density of mana reduction effects. Maybe an Oblivion Sower for a third copy of Smasher?
An easy way to learn land sequencing with this deck is to jam Eldrazi Temple first. Might be obvious but it wasn't for me before I did the math on paper, so I assume it can be the first thing to learn:
*: on the draw, the time you get to turn 3, you have 10 cards out of your library, which may be the 3 lands, the 2 HS, 2 Banes / Breakers and 3 six-drops, those five creatures costing 32 mana in all... You may actually play any 2 colorless spells of your choice, up to 7 drops. In theory, you can cast 3 Oblivion Sowers for free, and if you get 6 lands out of those guys, you can cast TWO Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger. Which pushes up to 38 CMC of creature spells !
Now let's talk business.
* Kozilek, the Great Distortion is less appealing than I thought at first. I'd rather play Ulamog against basically anything, so where is Kozilek better ? From the moment I'm told the MUs and/or situations where it really shines, I'll play it. I want to make a comparison with Uli:
- Kozi draws cards, Uli exiles 2 permanents. Uli 1-0.
- Kozi protects himself by discarding a card IF we have the right CMC, Uli is indestructible. Uli 2-0.
- Kozi has Menace, Ulamog exiles 2 permanents. Uli 3-0.
In a vacuum, Ulamog just does it all. So we need a real reason to play Kozi, where Ulamog wouldn't seal the deal anyway. One reason I see is an opposing Cranial Extraction or Surgical Extraction effect. Void Winnower fills that role of being better than Uli in some MUs, oddly enough.
* Reality Smasher seems to be a great 4-of, we'll see in the future. With Tron and Amulet in the format, the sideboards are full of land destruction, and main deck Ghost Quarters are more and more popular. The possibility of killing opponents with colorless Thundermaw Hellkites is, I believe, a very strong upgrade to the deck. In a vacuum, the card doesn't seem to fit, but in reality, we'll be more than happy to apply pressure or have huge blockers against various decks. We may never hit Ulamog's mana in many games. Time will tell.
* Warping Wail as a 4-of doesn't look out of place to me. I might be quite wrong but it answers many top tier decks like Infect, Affinity, Twin, and slows down Amulet, Reanimator and Tron (Sylvan Scrying, Ancient Stirrings, Summer Bloom, Faithless Looting,...). In the other MUs, it just helps ramping into our main plan.
What about Go for the Throat, Dismember, Slaughter Pact then ? Well I feel like we don't need them. I believe the main strategy beats most of the creature-based decks. Every creature we have is probably bigger than our opponent's, and if it's not the case, it's probably a high CMC card than we can disrupt with Thought-Knot Seer and Thoughtseize.
* Thoughtseize x4. Might be wrong once again, but I figured out all the very impactful spells that beat me are 4+ CMC cards. Inquisition of Kozilek has been very bad for me but against Burn. A 2-2 split might be the right call in a vacuum, and it might just be entirely meta-dependant.
* 24 lands + 4 Expedition Map. it seems like 28 mana sources is a decent way to start things off, but can I be so greedy that I play only 24 lands ? I didn't get mana-screwed so far, but a 25 lands + 3 Maps can be the right split.
It has been noted before that painlands like Underground River and the card Tendo Ice Bridge slot well in this deck because we want to play a high density of lands that produce both colorless mana and black mana early on and untapped, but we don't actually run many black cards, so it's OK if we don't have reliable drawback-free access to black. We need to be able to reliably cast turn 1 Thoughtseize with this deck. With that in mind, here is a draft of the deck that I think could achieve these goals. The sideboard is rough and needs major improvement:
This gives us 15 sources of B and <> each, which is very good.
I only put a pair of Reality Smasher because it doesn't really forward the main game plan, which is slamming Ulamog, but it is nice to have access to a quicker source of pressure versus many decks.
In limited testing, this version has felt very smooth. Thought-Knot Seer has been great.
I think 3/3 of conduit/ulamog is not the right way to go. if you cast conduit, you will always get an ulamog, or something else that you need that's 7+ mana. Conduit should always be at a 4 and no less in this deck. I would change the ratio to 4/2.
That's obviously true, but I don't know how many copies are right and what you would replace to add more copies. The curve is already a little bit ambitious, and you can't cut any more Conduits since you need them to find Ulamog and maintain density of mana reduction effects. Maybe an Oblivion Sower for a third copy of Smasher?
i personally would probably not run 1 winnower (and keep it instead on the side) and 1 sower. my theory is that since you are replacing heavier cmc cards with smasher, you can decrease the number of sower effects while still keeping the threat count pretty high
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Modern: C Serum Eldrazi Legacy: CEldrazi C Mud W Soldier Stompy R Bread (big red stompy) WU Spirit Blade WUG Meat Hooks WUBGR Blue Dredge
An easy way to learn land sequencing with this deck is to jam Eldrazi Temple first. Might be obvious but it wasn't for me before I did the math on paper, so I assume it can be the first thing to learn:
The best ramping start being: T3 Temple + Wail + Urborg + HS + Eye = Void Winnower (4-9 mana)
Now let's talk business.
* Kozilek, the Great Distortion is less appealing than I thought at first. I'd rather play Ulamog against basically anything, so where is Kozilek better ? From the moment I'm told the MUs and/or situations where it really shines, I'll play it. I want to make a comparison with Uli:
- Kozi draws cards, Uli exiles 2 permanents. Uli 1-0.
- Kozi protects himself by discarding a card IF we have the right CMC, Uli is indestructible. Uli 2-0.
- Kozi has Menace, Ulamog exiles 2 permanents. Uli 3-0.
In a vacuum, Ulamog just does it all. So we need a real reason to play Kozi, where Ulamog wouldn't seal the deal anyway. One reason I see is an opposing Cranial Extraction or Surgical Extraction effect. Void Winnower fills that role of being better than Uli in some MUs, oddly enough.
* Reality Smasher seems to be a great 4-of, we'll see in the future. With Tron and Amulet in the format, the sideboards are full of land destruction, and main deck Ghost Quarters are more and more popular. The possibility of killing opponents with colorless Thundermaw Hellkites is, I believe, a very strong upgrade to the deck. In a vacuum, the card doesn't seem to fit, but in reality, we'll be more than happy to apply pressure or have huge blockers against various decks. We may never hit Ulamog's mana in many games. Time will tell.
* Warping Wail as a 4-of doesn't look out of place to me. I might be quite wrong but it answers many top tier decks like Infect, Affinity, Twin, and slows down Amulet, Reanimator and Tron (Sylvan Scrying, Ancient Stirrings, Summer Bloom, Faithless Looting,...). In the other MUs, it just helps ramping into our main plan.
What about Go for the Throat, Dismember, Slaughter Pact then ? Well I feel like we don't need them. I believe the main strategy beats most of the creature-based decks. Every creature we have is probably bigger than our opponent's, and if it's not the case, it's probably a high CMC card than we can disrupt with Thought-Knot Seer and Thoughtseize.
* Thoughtseize x4. Might be wrong once again, but I figured out all the very impactful spells that beat me are 4+ CMC cards. Inquisition of Kozilek has been very bad for me but against Burn. A 2-2 split might be the right call in a vacuum, and it might just be entirely meta-dependant.
* 24 lands + 4 Expedition Map. it seems like 28 mana sources is a decent way to start things off, but can I be so greedy that I play only 24 lands ? I didn't get mana-screwed so far, but a 25 lands + 3 Maps can be the right split.
sorry just a bit confused, how does temple + wail + eye get you 5? wail doesn't get reduced in cost by temple/eye
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Modern: C Serum Eldrazi Legacy: CEldrazi C Mud W Soldier Stompy R Bread (big red stompy) WU Spirit Blade WUG Meat Hooks WUBGR Blue Dredge
This may be a stupid question, but what's wrong with playing the Tron Urza lands to cast Eldrazi? I mean, that's the old way we used to do it, we still run Expedition Map, what's the difference? Aren't all colorless-producing lands retroactively making new-colorless anyway?
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This may be a stupid question, but what's wrong with playing the Tron Urza lands to cast Eldrazi? I mean, that's the old way we used to do it, we still run Expedition Map, what's the difference? Aren't all colorless-producing lands retroactively making new-colorless anyway?
The point is that you're faster at casting things beacuse all your "sol lands" just inherently make 2 mana. Turn 2 Thought-Knot Seer, for example, is impossible in Tron. For the same reason, you can't get screwed by having Tron turned off by land destruction because everything just makes 2 mana for your Eldrazi no matter what other lands you control. The tradeoff is that we can only run Eldrazi as our payoff spells instead things like Karn and Wurmcoil.
An easy way to learn land sequencing with this deck is to jam Eldrazi Temple first. Might be obvious but it wasn't for me before I did the math on paper, so I assume it can be the first thing to learn:
Now let's talk business.
* Kozilek, the Great Distortion is less appealing than I thought at first. I'd rather play Ulamog against basically anything, so where is Kozilek better ? From the moment I'm told the MUs and/or situations where it really shines, I'll play it. I want to make a comparison with Uli:
- Kozi draws cards, Uli exiles 2 permanents. Uli 1-0.
- Kozi protects himself by discarding a card IF we have the right CMC, Uli is indestructible. Uli 2-0.
- Kozi has Menace, Ulamog exiles 2 permanents. Uli 3-0.
In a vacuum, Ulamog just does it all. So we need a real reason to play Kozi, where Ulamog wouldn't seal the deal anyway. One reason I see is an opposing Cranial Extraction or Surgical Extraction effect. Void Winnower fills that role of being better than Uli in some MUs, oddly enough.
* Reality Smasher seems to be a great 4-of, we'll see in the future. With Tron and Amulet in the format, the sideboards are full of land destruction, and main deck Ghost Quarters are more and more popular. The possibility of killing opponents with colorless Thundermaw Hellkites is, I believe, a very strong upgrade to the deck. In a vacuum, the card doesn't seem to fit, but in reality, we'll be more than happy to apply pressure or have huge blockers against various decks. We may never hit Ulamog's mana in many games. Time will tell.
* Warping Wail as a 4-of doesn't look out of place to me. I might be quite wrong but it answers many top tier decks like Infect, Affinity, Twin, and slows down Amulet, Reanimator and Tron (Sylvan Scrying, Ancient Stirrings, Summer Bloom, Faithless Looting,...). In the other MUs, it just helps ramping into our main plan.
What about Go for the Throat, Dismember, Slaughter Pact then ? Well I feel like we don't need them. I believe the main strategy beats most of the creature-based decks. Every creature we have is probably bigger than our opponent's, and if it's not the case, it's probably a high CMC card than we can disrupt with Thought-Knot Seer and Thoughtseize.
* Thoughtseize x4. Might be wrong once again, but I figured out all the very impactful spells that beat me are 4+ CMC cards. Inquisition of Kozilek has been very bad for me but against Burn. A 2-2 split might be the right call in a vacuum, and it might just be entirely meta-dependant.
* 24 lands + 4 Expedition Map. it seems like 28 mana sources is a decent way to start things off, but can I be so greedy that I play only 24 lands ? I didn't get mana-screwed so far, but a 25 lands + 3 Maps can be the right split.
A few comments:
1) You only run 11 T1 black sources, which will make it hard to reliably play T1 Thoughtseize. Karsten's article suggests 14 minimum, which is why I ran Underground River. (By the way, Underground River is clearly the best Bx land to play because of Spellskite activations).
2) I've found the problem with Warping Wail is that it doesn't kill anything out of the red-based aggro decks. I think you need at least a little more broadly applicable removal.
3) I think you are completely right about Kozilek. It has been pretty bad. Void Winnower has also been a pretty bad maindeck card. I think that should be in the SB.
4) The thing I don't like about Expedition Map, especially with the lower curve, is that it seems like we don't have time to activate it. Basically, it's only good when we don't have either T1 discard or a T2 play (Summoning or Thought-Knot). Otherwise, it tends to just rot in your hand or on the field. I've like 26 lands/2 maps better. Without silver bullet land targets, do we even need Expedition Map? It might be better to just play more cards that help against aggro. Maindeck Disfigure has been something I've often contemplated.
You'll notice that i made a slight splash of green for world breaker. I think world breaker is amazing in this deck and is worth splashing green just for him. since he costs 7, we don't really have to hurt our manabase that much. 3x cavern of souls plus 4x llanowar wastes + 3 expedition map are plenty to get 1 green mid/late game. At 7, he flows nicely with the mana curve, can be cast 1-2 turns before ulamog, and is always relevant in mid/late game. He can get rid of a lot of problems before we cast ulamog to clear the way for him. He can be fetched by conduit of ruin if needed. He can also block big flyers. His recursion is actually pretty good because we can sac eyes/urborgs that we also have rotting in our hand and then play them.
I am still iffy about MD surgical extraction. I will probably switch this to creature destruction.
And no, I am not going to put abrupt decays or ancient stirrings in the deck. its supposed to be like mono B but with a minor green splash, so the mana base doesnt get hurt.
You'll notice that i made a slight splash of green for world breaker. I think world breaker is amazing in this deck and is worth splashing green just for him. since he costs 7, we don't really have to hurt our manabase that much. 3x cavern of souls plus 4x llanowar wastes + 3 expedition map are plenty to get 1 green mid/late game. At 7, he flows nicely with the mana curve, can be cast 1-2 turns before ulamog, and is always relevant in mid/late game. He can get rid of a lot of problems before we cast ulamog to clear the way for him. He can be fetched by conduit of ruin if needed. He can also block big flyers. His recursion is actually pretty good because we can sac eyes/urborgs that we also have rotting in our hand and then play them.
I am still iffy about MD surgical extraction. I will probably switch this to creature destruction.
And no, I am not going to put abrupt decays or ancient stirrings in the deck. its supposed to be like mono B but with a minor green splash, so the mana base doesnt get hurt.
i like your list a lot, i'm planning on building the same thing but with more green support for ancient stirrings instead of map since late game it also gives us a choice of Eldrazi/all is dust (also more reliable side board casting options)
which is why I ran Underground River. (By the way, Underground River is clearly the best Bx land to play because of Spellskite activations).
Good call. I think Maps must be considered as potential black sources, and that we can play greedy with 12 black mana sources. I'm still at 11, so I have to fix it. 14 sources is very cumfortable with such a small (yet crucial) black "splash". I think I'll run 1-2 Underground River for testing. It emphasizes the idea of playing a 2-2 split between Thoughtseize and Inquisition of Kozilek, in order to lose less life in the course of an aggro MU, which I'm not a fan of, but hey...
I've found the problem with Warping Wail is that it doesn't kill anything out of the red-based aggro decks. I think you need at least a little more broadly applicable removal.
It kills almost Souls Sisters and Martyr proc creatures, many Elves, many Affinity, kills Dark Confidant, Azusa, Lost but Seeking, Merfolks (including Master of Waves which is their best way to get us midgame), many Company decks small guys (Noble Hierarch, Birds of Paradise, Viscera Seer, Pia's tokens, Spellskite, etc...). The removal mode might not always be stellar because we need to have it in the right situation, but it definitely hits more than red-based decks !
Without silver bullet land targets, do we even need Expedition Map?
As far as I'm concerned, Urborg, Temple and Eye are silver bullets to let the deck function at full potential. I wouldn't go under 3 copies.
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Pioneer - A bunch of stuff Modern - Humans Legacy - Grixis Phoenix / Death & Taxes
expedition is pretty mandatory since its never a dead draw when trying to cast an ulamog as soon as possible (which is the main goal of this deck) since it enables you to cast ulamog 1-2 turns sooner if you don't have the mana.
Chalice turn 1 is very strong and deals with all bad matchups this deck has against burn, zoo, boggles general stuff and removals like Path to exile. Not only It works with those decks but it disrupts other Eldrazi Processor decks since they need to play Exilers and Hand disruption.
The more I play the list, the more I tend to think the 4 Maps are needed. Math would probably stand that it allows less mulligans of potential average hands. I'm curious to get your feedback within time iostream. I used to play 2 in Processor Eldrazi but it was more because I wanted to fit in other cards than anything else. It felt awkward to have 4 relics + 4 maps + other miserable cards for synergies.
Here, consistency is the core of the engine. Everytime I can't cast my things or miss a land drop, well I can still crack a Map... and makes my cards in hand playable. If I had instead, let's say, removal spells, yes it would buy me time against aggression but it wouldn't assure me a land drop the next turn, so I would still be relying on luck.
I just had some optimistic games earlier, winning 2-0 against Gx Devotion and Burn. I already won against Burn before, so the MU doesn't seem that unwinnable. MVP were Thought-Knot Seer and more surprisingly Warping Wail and Void Winnower (!).
* Against Burn, Game 1, I got a turn 4 Void Winnower, which hoses half of Burn. Enough to win. Game 2, I got a first Wail for a fresh Monastery Swiftspear that I killed in resp of her trigger. Later at 8 life, I play Seer, my opponent has Lightning Bolt x2 and Grim Lavamancer in hand... I decide to exile a Bolt and hope for a Wail top deck to deal with Lavamancer later... which I drew fortunately, which bought me time for a Ruin Processor off a Conduit of Ruin trigger !
* Against G Devo, Wail killed an Arbor Elf, which is a thing since he had a Forest enchanted of Utopia Sprawl. Void Winnower is able to shut down no less than Garruk Wild Speaker, Primeval Titan and Craterhoof Behemoth. It leaves my opponent relying on Genesis Wave, by the way he chained 2 within the same turn, getting no more than 5-max drops. Not enough to overcome me.
I could probably cut 1 IoK since theres 4 TKS in there, but not sure, real testing will only tell if it's a good move or not. I put the 2x endless one in there for it's utility. you can potentially play turn 2 heartless + 3/3 endless ones if you have an eye of ugin out on the field (which should help with any early game aggro) or it can just be a mid-late game mana sink.
theres 14 G sources, 11 C sources, and 15 B sources so I think that should be good for the mana screwing
Drown in sorrow is nice cause it get rid of the little ones, the big ones you can block or Ulamog. I miss strangler
Inqusition I'm not a fan of, but against burn and others i can see the appeal. But with Thought-Knot/Thought and Charm hard to fit and I would try and run 4.
Chalice I should also find some room for!!
The more I play the list, the more I tend to think the 4 Maps are needed. Math would probably stand that it allows less mulligans of potential average hands. I'm curious to get your feedback within time iostream. I used to play 2 in Processor Eldrazi but it was more because I wanted to fit in other cards than anything else. It felt awkward to have 4 relics + 4 maps + other miserable cards for synergies.
Here, consistency is the core of the engine. Everytime I can't cast my things or miss a land drop, well I can still crack a Map... and makes my cards in hand playable. If I had instead, let's say, removal spells, yes it would buy me time against aggression but it wouldn't assure me a land drop the next turn, so I would still be relying on luck.
I tried some games without Map, and I had some pretty awkward draws that could have easily been fixed by map, so I think it's definitely good in some quantities. I still don't think 4 of them are right. Drawing 2 early on is definitely also awkward.
I have been testing this list, and when it works it does crazy stuff. But I also feel like it can just stall out and has no real way of recovering. In the processor version, the cantrips can help you get out of tough spots. I feel like this deck needs something like that. Any thoughts?
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Current Decks
Modern
No idea because my favorite decks keep getting banned or having the rules changed against them
Legacy
GBDark DepthsBG
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The principal advantage of this choice is to simplify the plan of the deck. Instead of having to put together three pieces to enable the top end (cost reduction effect + Relic effect + fatty), Heartless Eldrazi attempts to overload on cost reduction effects so that the 6+ cmc Eldrazi are reliably castable. A secondary advantage of this choice is to improve the overall card quality of the deck. The synergies do not require playing intrinsically unimpactful cards (e.g. Relic of Progenitus). This enables the deck to play off the top better by increasing its threat density (e.g. the deck often plays 4 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger).
The deck is not really a ramp deck like Tron despite superficial similarities. Just like the <>B, <>BR, and <>BW Eldrazi Processors decks, this deck plays 5-6 pieces of 1cmc discard and 4-6 pieces of removal, unlike traditional ramp decks. That is to say, it is an interactive deck. In this way, one can view it as a kind of midrange/ramp hybrid. I would like the discussion to focus on the deck from this perspective, rather than fostering constant and unproductive comparisons to decks like Tron that do not share similar strategic goals.
For reference, here is a list that was piloted to a top 64 finish by Jacob Baugh. A deck tech can be found here. The decklist is:
4 Kozilek's Channeler
4 Oblivion Sower
1 Void Winnower
4 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
6 Swamp
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Cavern of Souls
4 Eldrazi Temple
4 Ghost Quarter
4 Eye of Ugin
1 Shizo, Death's Storehouse
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Heartless Summoning
1 Dismember
3 Go for the Throat
1 Slaughter Pact
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Thoughtseize
1 Ratchet Bomb
3 Vampiric Link
3 Disfigure
1 Slaughter Pact
1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
2 Cranial Extraction
1 Damnation
2 Drown in Sorrow
1 Memoricide
Presently, I would like the discussion to focus on how cards from Oath of the Gatewatch can improve this take on the Eldrazi strategy.
It has been noted before that painlands like Underground River and the card Tendo Ice Bridge slot well in this deck because we want to play a high density of lands that produce both colorless mana and black mana early on and untapped, but we don't actually run many black cards, so it's OK if we don't have reliable drawback-free access to black. We need to be able to reliably cast turn 1 Thoughtseize with this deck. With that in mind, here is a draft of the deck that I think could achieve these goals. The sideboard is rough and needs major improvement:
1 Kozilek, the Great Distortion
4 Oblivion Sower
2 Reality Smasher
4 Thought-Knot Seer
3 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
1 Void Winnower
2 Expedition Map
4 Heartless Summoning
1 Dismember
1 Go For The Throat
1 Slaughter Pact
2 Warping Wail
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
4 Eye of Ugin
3 Ghost Quarter
4 Swamp
4 Tendo Ice Bridge
4 Underground River
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Sun Droplet
1 Night of Souls Betrayal
3 Disfigure
1 Slaughter Pact
2 Cranial Extraction
1 Damnation
1 Flaying Tendrils
1 Memoricide
I only put a pair of Reality Smasher because it doesn't really forward the main game plan, which is slamming Ulamog, but it is nice to have access to a quicker source of pressure versus many decks.
In limited testing, this version has felt very smooth. Thought-Knot Seer has been great.
C Serum Eldrazi
Legacy:
C Eldrazi
C Mud
W Soldier Stompy
R Bread (big red stompy)
WU Spirit Blade
WUG Meat Hooks
WUBGR Blue Dredge
I'm on a simpler list for now, because I need more testing to figure out what are better options than the basic best cards for the archetype.
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Reality Smasher
4 Conduit of Ruin
4 Oblivion Sower
1 Void Winnower
3 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
4 Expedition Map
4 Warping Wail
4 Heartless Summoning
2 Thoughtseize
2 Doom Blade
Lands (24):
4 Eldrazi Temple
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Eye of Ugin
3 Ghost Quarter
4 Swamp
4 Tendo Ice Bridge
1 Wastes
2 Duress
2 Pithing Needle
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 All is Dust
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
2 Ruin Processor
2 Spellskite
An easy way to learn land sequencing with this deck is to jam Eldrazi Temple first. Might be obvious but it wasn't for me before I did the math on paper, so I assume it can be the first thing to learn:
T2 Temple + Eye =
Thought-Knot Seer (1->4 mana)
T2 Temple + Temple =
Thought-Knot Seer (2->4 mana)
T3 Temple + Land + Wail + Land =
Reality Smasher (4->5 mana)
T3 Temple + Land + Wail + Temple =
Conduit of Ruin, Oblivion Sower,
Warping Wail + Thought-Knot Seer (4->6 mana)
T3 Temple + Urborg + Wail + Eye =
Bane of Bala Ged, All is Dust,
Thought-Knot Seer X2 (4->8 mana)
T3 Temple + Land + HS + Land =
Conduit of Ruin, Oblivion Sower,
Warping Wail + Thought-Knot Seer,
Thought-Knot Seer X2 (3->8 mana)
T3 Temple + Land + HS + Temple =
Bane of Bala Ged, All is Dust,
Warping Wail + Thought-Knot Seer / Reality Smasher (3->9 mana)
T3 Temple + Urborg + HS + Eye =
Bane of Bala Ged, All is Dust,
Reality Smasher X2, Oblivion Sower X2, Conduit of Ruin X2,
Warping Wail + Thought-Knot Seer / Reality Smasher / Oblivion Sower / Conduit of Ruin,
Thought-Knot Seer X2 + Conduit of Ruin / Oblivion Sower,
Thought-Knot Seer + Reality Smasher + Conduit of Ruin / Oblivion Sower (3->15 mana)
T3 Temple + Urborg + HS + Eye + HS =
FREE Conduit of Ruin / Oblivion Sower + Bane of Bala Ged + Bane of Bala Ged / All is Dust (3->38* mana)
*: on the draw, the time you get to turn 3, you have 10 cards out of your library, which may be the 3 lands, the 2 HS, 2 Banes / Breakers and 3 six-drops, those five creatures costing 32 mana in all... You may actually play any 2 colorless spells of your choice, up to 7 drops. In theory, you can cast 3 Oblivion Sowers for free, and if you get 6 lands out of those guys, you can cast TWO Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger. Which pushes up to 38 CMC of creature spells !
Now let's talk business.
* Kozilek, the Great Distortion is less appealing than I thought at first. I'd rather play Ulamog against basically anything, so where is Kozilek better ? From the moment I'm told the MUs and/or situations where it really shines, I'll play it. I want to make a comparison with Uli:
- Kozi draws cards, Uli exiles 2 permanents. Uli 1-0.
- Kozi protects himself by discarding a card IF we have the right CMC, Uli is indestructible. Uli 2-0.
- Kozi has Menace, Ulamog exiles 2 permanents. Uli 3-0.
In a vacuum, Ulamog just does it all. So we need a real reason to play Kozi, where Ulamog wouldn't seal the deal anyway. One reason I see is an opposing Cranial Extraction or Surgical Extraction effect.
Void Winnower fills that role of being better than Uli in some MUs, oddly enough.
* Reality Smasher seems to be a great 4-of, we'll see in the future. With Tron and Amulet in the format, the sideboards are full of land destruction, and main deck Ghost Quarters are more and more popular. The possibility of killing opponents with colorless Thundermaw Hellkites is, I believe, a very strong upgrade to the deck. In a vacuum, the card doesn't seem to fit, but in reality, we'll be more than happy to apply pressure or have huge blockers against various decks. We may never hit Ulamog's mana in many games. Time will tell.
* Warping Wail as a 4-of doesn't look out of place to me. I might be quite wrong but it answers many top tier decks like Infect, Affinity, Twin, and slows down Amulet, Reanimator and Tron (Sylvan Scrying, Ancient Stirrings, Summer Bloom, Faithless Looting,...). In the other MUs, it just helps ramping into our main plan.
What about Go for the Throat, Dismember, Slaughter Pact then ? Well I feel like we don't need them. I believe the main strategy beats most of the creature-based decks. Every creature we have is probably bigger than our opponent's, and if it's not the case, it's probably a high CMC card than we can disrupt with Thought-Knot Seer and Thoughtseize.
* Thoughtseize x4. Might be wrong once again, but I figured out all the very impactful spells that beat me are 4+ CMC cards. Inquisition of Kozilek has been very bad for me but against Burn. A 2-2 split might be the right call in a vacuum, and it might just be entirely meta-dependant.
* 24 lands + 4 Expedition Map. it seems like 28 mana sources is a decent way to start things off, but can I be so greedy that I play only 24 lands ? I didn't get mana-screwed so far, but a 25 lands + 3 Maps can be the right split.
I think 3/3 of conduit/ulamog is not the right way to go. if you cast conduit, you will always get an ulamog, or something else that you need that's 7+ mana. Conduit should always be at a 4 and no less in this deck. I would change the ratio to 4/2.
i personally would probably not run 1 winnower (and keep it instead on the side) and 1 sower. my theory is that since you are replacing heavier cmc cards with smasher, you can decrease the number of sower effects while still keeping the threat count pretty high
C Serum Eldrazi
Legacy:
C Eldrazi
C Mud
W Soldier Stompy
R Bread (big red stompy)
WU Spirit Blade
WUG Meat Hooks
WUBGR Blue Dredge
sorry just a bit confused, how does temple + wail + eye get you 5? wail doesn't get reduced in cost by temple/eye
C Serum Eldrazi
Legacy:
C Eldrazi
C Mud
W Soldier Stompy
R Bread (big red stompy)
WU Spirit Blade
WUG Meat Hooks
WUBGR Blue Dredge
Been playing with proxies and assumed colorless spells were eldrazi, which is obviously not the case. I edit my s**t.
1) You only run 11 T1 black sources, which will make it hard to reliably play T1 Thoughtseize. Karsten's article suggests 14 minimum, which is why I ran Underground River. (By the way, Underground River is clearly the best Bx land to play because of Spellskite activations).
2) I've found the problem with Warping Wail is that it doesn't kill anything out of the red-based aggro decks. I think you need at least a little more broadly applicable removal.
3) I think you are completely right about Kozilek. It has been pretty bad. Void Winnower has also been a pretty bad maindeck card. I think that should be in the SB.
4) The thing I don't like about Expedition Map, especially with the lower curve, is that it seems like we don't have time to activate it. Basically, it's only good when we don't have either T1 discard or a T2 play (Summoning or Thought-Knot). Otherwise, it tends to just rot in your hand or on the field. I've like 26 lands/2 maps better. Without silver bullet land targets, do we even need Expedition Map? It might be better to just play more cards that help against aggro. Maindeck Disfigure has been something I've often contemplated.
4 Thought-Knot Seer
3 Reality Smasher
4 Conduit of Ruin
3 Oblivion Sower
3 World Breaker
2 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
4 Heartless Summoning
3 Warping Wail
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 surgical extraction
4 Eldrazi Temple
4 Eye of Ugin
2 Ghost Quarter
4 Swamp
3 Cavern of souls
4 llanowar wastes
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
You'll notice that i made a slight splash of green for world breaker. I think world breaker is amazing in this deck and is worth splashing green just for him. since he costs 7, we don't really have to hurt our manabase that much. 3x cavern of souls plus 4x llanowar wastes + 3 expedition map are plenty to get 1 green mid/late game. At 7, he flows nicely with the mana curve, can be cast 1-2 turns before ulamog, and is always relevant in mid/late game. He can get rid of a lot of problems before we cast ulamog to clear the way for him. He can be fetched by conduit of ruin if needed. He can also block big flyers. His recursion is actually pretty good because we can sac eyes/urborgs that we also have rotting in our hand and then play them.
I am still iffy about MD surgical extraction. I will probably switch this to creature destruction.
And no, I am not going to put abrupt decays or ancient stirrings in the deck. its supposed to be like mono B but with a minor green splash, so the mana base doesnt get hurt.
i like your list a lot, i'm planning on building the same thing but with more green support for ancient stirrings instead of map since late game it also gives us a choice of Eldrazi/all is dust (also more reliable side board casting options)
C Serum Eldrazi
Legacy:
C Eldrazi
C Mud
W Soldier Stompy
R Bread (big red stompy)
WU Spirit Blade
WUG Meat Hooks
WUBGR Blue Dredge
Good call. I think Maps must be considered as potential black sources, and that we can play greedy with 12 black mana sources. I'm still at 11, so I have to fix it. 14 sources is very cumfortable with such a small (yet crucial) black "splash". I think I'll run 1-2 Underground River for testing. It emphasizes the idea of playing a 2-2 split between Thoughtseize and Inquisition of Kozilek, in order to lose less life in the course of an aggro MU, which I'm not a fan of, but hey...
It kills almost Souls Sisters and Martyr proc creatures, many Elves, many Affinity, kills Dark Confidant, Azusa, Lost but Seeking, Merfolks (including Master of Waves which is their best way to get us midgame), many Company decks small guys (Noble Hierarch, Birds of Paradise, Viscera Seer, Pia's tokens, Spellskite, etc...). The removal mode might not always be stellar because we need to have it in the right situation, but it definitely hits more than red-based decks !
As far as I'm concerned, Urborg, Temple and Eye are silver bullets to let the deck function at full potential. I wouldn't go under 3 copies.
If you want you can use my banners for this primer:
or
Chalice turn 1 is very strong and deals with all bad matchups this deck has against burn, zoo, boggles general stuff and removals like Path to exile. Not only It works with those decks but it disrupts other Eldrazi Processor decks since they need to play Exilers and Hand disruption.
Other sideboard card against other eldrazi decks is Illness in the Ranks because it's cheap and kill all tokens they have so Blight Herder loses It's value without hurting our plan. Playing Simian Spirit Guide let us play Slaughter Games/Crumble to Dust faster against combo decks or even exiling cards like Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger before they can cast it.
The main reason I want to splash red is because I want to play Kozilek's Return and this is the best deck to play and get so much value from it.
After some tests unfortunately Oblivion Sower is not very good in this deck without a way to exile things. The version I'm testing I play Sanctum of Ugin and Bane of Bala Ged. I like Bane and chaining multiples with Sanctum of Ugin is fun. Since I'm playing Chalice of the Void I don't have to worry my Banes being pathed.
The more I play the list, the more I tend to think the 4 Maps are needed. Math would probably stand that it allows less mulligans of potential average hands. I'm curious to get your feedback within time iostream. I used to play 2 in Processor Eldrazi but it was more because I wanted to fit in other cards than anything else. It felt awkward to have 4 relics + 4 maps + other miserable cards for synergies.
Here, consistency is the core of the engine. Everytime I can't cast my things or miss a land drop, well I can still crack a Map... and makes my cards in hand playable. If I had instead, let's say, removal spells, yes it would buy me time against aggression but it wouldn't assure me a land drop the next turn, so I would still be relying on luck.
I just had some optimistic games earlier, winning 2-0 against Gx Devotion and Burn. I already won against Burn before, so the MU doesn't seem that unwinnable. MVP were Thought-Knot Seer and more surprisingly Warping Wail and Void Winnower (!).
* Against Burn, Game 1, I got a turn 4 Void Winnower, which hoses half of Burn. Enough to win. Game 2, I got a first Wail for a fresh Monastery Swiftspear that I killed in resp of her trigger. Later at 8 life, I play Seer, my opponent has Lightning Bolt x2 and Grim Lavamancer in hand... I decide to exile a Bolt and hope for a Wail top deck to deal with Lavamancer later... which I drew fortunately, which bought me time for a Ruin Processor off a Conduit of Ruin trigger !
* Against G Devo, Wail killed an Arbor Elf, which is a thing since he had a Forest enchanted of Utopia Sprawl. Void Winnower is able to shut down no less than Garruk Wild Speaker, Primeval Titan and Craterhoof Behemoth. It leaves my opponent relying on Genesis Wave, by the way he chained 2 within the same turn, getting no more than 5-max drops. Not enough to overcome me.
1x Cavern of Souls
4x Eldrazi Temple
3x Eye of Ugin
4x Llanowar Wastes
2x Overgrown Tomb
2x Swamp
2x forest
2x Twilight Mire
3x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Conduit of Ruin
2x Endless One
3x Oblivion Sower
4x Reality Smasher
4x Thought-Knot Seer
1x Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
2x World Breaker
1x Dismember
3x warping wail
Sorcery (7)
3x Ancient Stirrings
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
Enchantment (4)
4x Heartless Summoning
I could probably cut 1 IoK since theres 4 TKS in there, but not sure, real testing will only tell if it's a good move or not. I put the 2x endless one in there for it's utility. you can potentially play turn 2 heartless + 3/3 endless ones if you have an eye of ugin out on the field (which should help with any early game aggro) or it can just be a mid-late game mana sink.
theres 14 G sources, 11 C sources, and 15 B sources so I think that should be good for the mana screwing
C Serum Eldrazi
Legacy:
C Eldrazi
C Mud
W Soldier Stompy
R Bread (big red stompy)
WU Spirit Blade
WUG Meat Hooks
WUBGR Blue Dredge
Here is my take on it!
3 Expedition Map
4 Thoughtseize
3 Drown in Sorrow
2 Funeral Charm
4 Oblivion Sower
4 Conduit of Ruin
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Kozilek's Channeler
3 Ulamog
1 Void Winnower
1 Ruin Processor
4 Eldrazi Temple
6 Swamp
4 Ghost Quarter
4 Urborg tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Shizo, Death's Storehouse
2 Duress
2 Vampiric Link
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Cranial Extraction
3 Sergical Extraction
2 Pithing Needle
2 Dismember
Drown in sorrow is nice cause it get rid of the little ones, the big ones you can block or Ulamog. I miss strangler
Inqusition I'm not a fan of, but against burn and others i can see the appeal. But with Thought-Knot/Thought and Charm hard to fit and I would try and run 4.
Chalice I should also find some room for!!
Legacy: Dark Depths, Pox, Eldrazi Agro
Vintage: Dark Depths, Grey Orge
Pauper: Faerie Ninja
7pt Highlander: BW Combo
EDH: Horobi, (t)Toshiro, (t)Isamaru