A new thread to discuss the potential of black and colorless Elrazi only. Discussion is fine to propose "Should we splash white? Is the Processor version better?" but should be used as a lens to view the <>B deck, not to undermine it. Essentially, discussion of other variant is good, but posting those decklists should be done in their respective threads. Here is where we build the monoblack/colorless version.
This is a deck that makes the most out of a strong curve backed by hand disruption to overwhelm opponent's with big Eldrazi as early as turn 4 and then hopefully run away with the game. It is much like Mardu Midrange in the idea that it wants to stick a difficult-to-remove threat and then back it up with disruption. The power in this version is the ability to start doing that as early as turn 2! On top of that, we have a nigh-unbeatable curve that probably enables us to steal a few free wins when it pans out.
As opposed to the Processor version we're not focusing on ramping into Ulamog with Oblivion Sower or playing a control game with some Blight Herders but simply jamming the board with a threat and then removing their ability to answer it. Despite that, the deck has potential for a lot of grindy wins as well such as Lilliana of the Veil + Sea Gate Wreckage.
Here's a great article by Craig Wescoe that outlines another potential decklist for this archetype (Albeit with more Processing than most.)
I like the idea of removing the processors, but I don't see why that means we can't run Oblivion Sower and Ulamog. The cast trigger is really good and 5/8 is really big, so I think Sower is good enough on its own, and when you have that, why not Ulamog? Anyway, most of the time when you cast Ulamog, you're not sacrificing Blight Herder tokens to do it. You can also run a couple Mind Stone, as has been conventional in the past, to help this plan along.
I like the idea of removing the processors, but I don't see why that means we can't run Oblivion Sower and Ulamog. The cast trigger is really good and 5/8 is really big, so I think Sower is good enough on its own, and when you have that, why not Ulamog? Anyway, most of the time when you cast Ulamog, you're not sacrificing Blight Herder tokens to do it. You can also run a couple Mind Stone, as has been conventional in the past, to help this plan along.
I feel like the 5/8 vanilla body for 6 is a little high end for what we want to be doing, but I'm not against adding some Processors whether it's Blight Herder or Oblivion Sower to help pad out our top end. I just don't see us being able to reasonably cast Ulamog the majority of the time and worried about seeing him in my opening hand. I'd rather commit to a strategy. That said, a 5/8 that puts more mana on the board isn't a bad thing even without Ulamog especially if it lets us power out larger Endless Ones, Hangerback Walkers, or etcetera.
Are we sacrificing too much of the deck's consistency to have Ulamog as a back-up plan?
As much as I think an aggro version of Eldrazi is possible, I think the more tested and proven version of monoblack Eldrazi (the grindy version with processors and Ulamog) should be the focus of the OP. People may come here and get confused the way it is now especially given that your list is completely unproven. Either that or call it something different. For example, B<> Eldrazi Aggro, and B<> Eldrazi Processor.
As much as I think an aggro version of Eldrazi is possible, I think the more tested and proven version of monoblack Eldrazi (the grindy version with processors and Ulamog) should be the focus of the OP. People may come here and get confused the way it is now especially given that your list is completely unproven. Either that or call it something different. For example, B<> Eldrazi Aggro, and B<> Eldrazi Processor.
I wasn't recommending this for a primer, but would you rather have all discussion lumped into that thread or the midrange version ran here?
I agree with the movement away from Oblivion Sower for this deck. It does too little for it's cost considering we aren't ramping or processing as much as other versions.
Matter Reshaper might have a home here. It has some dis-synergy with Endless One unfortunately, but it's a good value creature.
Blue
You value knowledge, logic, and deceit. You love to pursue wisdom but also to manipulate and deceive. At your best, you are brilliant and progressive. At your worst, you are treacherous and cold. Your symbol is a water droplet. Your enemies are green and red.
I agree with the movement away from Oblivion Sower for this deck. It does too little for it's cost considering we aren't ramping or processing as much as other versions.
Matter Reshaper might have a home here. It has some dis-synergy with Endless One unfortunately, but it's a good value creature.
I've altered the title to avoid confusion. I think your deck suggestions are fantastic and could go over all the reasons they are right, but instead I will just change the deck in OP accordingly. Really good points made.
I'm just not sure what Matter Reshaper is putting on the board for us. When it puts a Lilliana on the field, it's fantastic. Otherwise, it's putting 2/2s, 2/1s, and lands which isn't really worth spots.
Eldrazi Mimics is fantastic to curve out with. It gives us a T1 play if we lead with a Temple/Eye instead of Urborg and scales with our game plan. Example:
>Eldrazi Temple, Eldrazi Mimic
>Eye of Ugin, Thought-Knot Seer, swing for 4
>Land, Reality Smasher, swing for 14
That's 18 damage by turn 3, where we would be at 9 damage without the Mimic. It speeds up our kill drastically. It's arguably winmore, but we're doubling our damage for 2 mana at basically no cost- We don't have a lot else to do turn 1 other than hand disruption and it's good to diversify are threats if they bring in Leyline from the board.
As a version of the deck that runs very few 1cc spells by comparison, I can see Chalice of the Void as sideboard tech. Against Burn take out the Thoughtseizes and side in Chalice for 1. Or against Affinity, you can Chalice for 0 or 2 and side out Go for the Throat.
I completely disagree with removing the processors. The most value that we can possibly gain is from Blight Herder (who I'm pretty sure has the best p/t rate in modern when played off of Eye/Urborg), we hose graveyard strategies, we use oblivion sower, etc. This seems more like Eldrazi mono black aggro? The whole benefit of the deck in the first place is being able to be a midrange deck who isn't weak to combo - by removing graveyard hosing you open yourself up to other midrange decks and graveyard strategies. I also dislike 4 Eye of Ugin and without processors you have no card draw. I'm not feeling what this deck is putting down at all.
I completely disagree with removing the processors. The most value that we can possibly gain is from Blight Herder (who I'm pretty sure has the best p/t rate in modern when played off of Eye/Urborg), we hose graveyard strategies, we use oblivion sower, etc. This seems more like Eldrazi mono black aggro? The whole benefit of the deck in the first place is being able to be a midrange deck who isn't weak to combo - by removing graveyard hosing you open yourself up to other midrange decks and graveyard strategies. I also dislike 4 Eye of Ugin and without processors you have no card draw. I'm not feeling what this deck is putting down at all.
@Niallplaysmagic
I think Eldrazi Midrange without processors has merit to it. I'm not sure if it is the best strategy, but it's one that I'm open to exploring, and what this thread is dedicated to.
We can judge whether or not to run Processors with a simple cost-benefit analysis.
What is the cost of running Processors? Some number of forced mainboard cards that put an opponent's cards into exile (not including Thought-Knot Seer because we're running that card anyways), plus 6-8 slots spent on cards to benefit from it. Lets look specifically at "the enablers" first. Relic of Progenitus Scrabbling Claws Oblivion Sower
One of the core attributes of any good Midrange deck is that almost every card included does one of three things: 1) Pose a threat, 2) remove a threat or 3) create a 2-for-1 advantage. Do these enablers have any of these attributes? Oblivion Sower poses a late-game threat, but probably less so than Reality Smasher. Plus, Oblivion Sower is by far the least reliable of the enablers because it's 3-5 turns slower. It also becomes weaker in the absence of Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger because we don't need extra land all the time. As for the rocks: In some match-ups, such as Grixis and Jund, the rocks essentially trade with Tarmogoyf or a delve creature, which is great. In many match-ups, such as Burn or Infect, these cards offer minimal benefit. If these cards were actually good in the mainboard then you would see other decks running them in the main as well.
Oblivion Sower is, by itself, a reasonably good creature but not the best that this deck could be running.
The rocks are, by themselves, not worth mainboarding in many metas.
All of the enablers are on some level sub-optimal, so they pose a deck-building cost. The question now becomes: Are processors so much stronger than the next best creature that they off-set the cost of a few sub-optimal cards? Lets take a look. Blight Herder Wasteland Strangler
How much more powerful is an enabled Wasteland Strangler than the next best creature? The next best creature is most likely Bearer of Silence. Enabled Strangler is usually stronger than Bearer because Strangler targets. Bearer will occasionally be better in match-ups like Tron, Bloom Titan, Living End and Bogles. Strangler is also a turn faster and has a more useful body, which is quite important. The power-level between an enabled Strangler and Bearer of Silence is pretty big. However, an unenabled Strangler has the power level of a draft common, so Bearer makes up for some lost power in pure consistency.
How much more powerful is an enabled Blight Herder than the next best creature? Reality Smasher is at least comparable by itself. If you're already running the Smasher, then Endless One is not a bad alternative; it lacks the raw power and utility but offers far greater flexibility. Herder is unique in how much board presence it can create, but requiring two cards in exile is neither easy nor consistent. There are more consistent options available for this deck.
Do the Processors offset the costs of running enablers? Based on my reasoning above, I believe that the answer is no unless 1) You play against a lot of decks where Relic of Progenitus is good by itself, or 2) You play Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger. The Eldrazi Processors and enablers have a home in a different Eldrazi deck. This thread is for Eldrazi players who believe that the deckbuilding cost of running enablers is too high to justify the Processors.
@Viagrasaurusrex
I misread the card; you're right.
@OP
Even if you don't put anything into play with Matter Reshaper, it still draws you a card. It's not an auto-include type creature but I think he's interesting.
Blue
You value knowledge, logic, and deceit. You love to pursue wisdom but also to manipulate and deceive. At your best, you are brilliant and progressive. At your worst, you are treacherous and cold. Your symbol is a water droplet. Your enemies are green and red.
As a version of the deck that runs very few 1cc spells by comparison, I can see Chalice of the Void as sideboard tech. Against Burn take out the Thoughtseizes and side in Chalice for 1. Or against Affinity, you can Chalice for 0 or 2 and side out Go for the Throat.
That's a great point. I think we might even want the Chalices mainboard since they hit so much of the format. Replace Warping Wail with them? (Warping Wail at it's best when it hits pesky 1 or 2 drops)
I completely disagree with removing the processors. The most value that we can possibly gain is from Blight Herder (who I'm pretty sure has the best p/t rate in modern when played off of Eye/Urborg), we hose graveyard strategies, we use oblivion sower, etc. This seems more like Eldrazi mono black aggro? The whole benefit of the deck in the first place is being able to be a midrange deck who isn't weak to combo - by removing graveyard hosing you open yourself up to other midrange decks and graveyard strategies. I also dislike 4 Eye of Ugin and without processors you have no card draw. I'm not feeling what this deck is putting down at all.
So I guess I should be looking for a "Mono Black Eldrazi Processor non-ramp focused midrange" thread? This is getting ridiculous. Lol.
The thing is the processors aren't necessary for an Eldrazi deck to succeed. FWIW, this just 5-0'd.
That's a great looking list. I almost regret ordering the Processor version of the deck for paper (Spoilers: I plagarized LordGrimpow's for laziness) just a few hours ago. When Oath launches, I will be upgrading it to either the Midrange (Thought-Knot, Reality Smasher) build or perhaps to a ramp-focused build like yours. Do you have any expectations to add to your deck come Oath?
@Bjaamman
I guess, but I'm not sure it's worth paying 3 mana for a 3/2 that draws you a card when it dies. Especially in a deck like this that perfers to count by 2s.
I jumped the gun with my post. I think this deck has just as much potential as the processor deck and it has many powerful options. I look forward to watching this build develop.
I am generally really sympathetic to wanting to play less of the "enablers" - they really are all bad maindeck cards. But I'm unconvinced we have better options than the Processors. Bearer of Silence most of the time is really going to be a 2/1 for two, which is awful. We need four actual lands to get full value, and we have so many better things to do by the time we get to that spot on the curve. I think Matter Reshaper is probably better than Strangler in my opinion, but I am very unsure about my judgment. Modern has a lot of removal that exiles, and since we have few ways to kill our own Reshaper, he is pretty weak when we are desperate for answers because our opponent might be able to just get around it without letting us block (or just outright killing us where Strangler, being a piece of removal, would have saved us). Also, it's too small to really draw any good removal spells, so it's likely going to get into states where it just stares at a bigger creature - it doesn't advance the board very meaningfully. As for Blight Herder, I agree that Reality Smasher can be a fine replacement, but he can't be a fine replacement both for Herder and Sower+Ulamog. We need another option, and I'm not sure a comparable one exists (that we know of yet). I'm pretty sure Endless One fails the midrange test - it's not removal, it's not undercosted for what it is (would you play Tarmogoyf if it costed 3G?), and it just isn't a two-for-one most of the time. Hence why I was suggesting earlier that we concede and play the Sower+Ulamog package, although admittedly, Sower by itself is also not great, but the payoff of Ulamog is terrific.
There are three alternatives that I can think of:
1) Playing Blight Herder alongside Smasher and playing fewer of the bad enablers. I think you might be able to get away with fewer of them if you only have a few Blight Herders to enable.
2) Playing something else in those slots other than a threat. We could just play more reactive spells like Kolaghan's Command. Or we could be brave and play Bob. It's not ridiculous; I've played a lot of Vintage 2/1 control (where the deck contains 4 Forces, Blightsteel Colossus, and Jace TMS). Or we could play some other decent midrange value creature like Fulminator Mage. I don't know if these options make us too threat light, though.
3) Splashing White instead of Red for Lingering Souls and Eldrazi Displacer, which are both pretty good midrange cards. The sad part is that Bolt fits much better than Path with our gameplan. The way midrange decks lose is by getting out tempoed, and Path accelerates your opponent.
I am generally really sympathetic to wanting to play less of the "enablers" - they really are all bad maindeck cards. But I'm unconvinced we have better options than the Processors. Bearer of Silence most of the time is really going to be a 2/1 for two, which is awful. We need four actual lands to get full value, and we have so many better things to do by the time we get to that spot on the curve. I think Matter Reshaper is probably better than Strangler in my opinion, but I am very unsure about my judgment. Modern has a lot of removal that exiles, and since we have few ways to kill our own Reshaper, he is pretty weak when we are desperate for answers because our opponent might be able to just get around it without letting us block (or just outright killing us where Strangler, being a piece of removal, would have saved us). Also, it's too small to really draw any good removal spells, so it's likely going to get into states where it just stares at a bigger creature - it doesn't advance the board very meaningfully. As for Blight Herder, I agree that Reality Smasher can be a fine replacement, but he can't be a fine replacement both for Herder and Sower+Ulamog. We need another option, and I'm not sure a comparable one exists (that we know of yet). I'm pretty sure Endless One fails the midrange test - it's not removal, it's not undercosted for what it is (would you play Tarmogoyf if it costed 3G?), and it just isn't a two-for-one most of the time. Hence why I was suggesting earlier that we concede and play the Sower+Ulamog package, although admittedly, Sower by itself is also not great, but the payoff of Ulamog is terrific.
There are three alternatives that I can think of:
1) Playing Blight Herder alongside Smasher and playing fewer of the bad enablers. I think you might be able to get away with fewer of them if you only have a few Blight Herders to enable.
2) Playing something else in those slots other than a threat. We could just play more reactive spells like Kolaghan's Command. Or we could be brave and play Bob. It's not ridiculous; I've played a lot of Vintage 2/1 control (where the deck contains 4 Forces, Blightsteel Colossus, and Jace TMS). Or we could play some other decent midrange value creature like Fulminator Mage. I don't know if these options make us too threat light, though.
3) Splashing White instead of Red for Lingering Souls and Eldrazi Displacer, which are both pretty good midrange cards. The sad part is that Bolt fits much better than Path with our gameplan. The way midrange decks lose is by getting out tempoed, and Path accelerates your opponent.
Great points. I have brought up the idea of Blight Herder alongside Reality Smasher. At least Blight Herder is an actually good card, unlike Oblivion Sower without an Ulamog to ramp to. I kind of like the idea of Bojuka Bogs + Blight Herders, although it's probably backbreaking for this deck to play a land that enters tapped and only taps for one B. So probably just the 4-of Relics and that's all.
I disagree with the red splash. Kolaghan's Command is probably the only card I'd be interested in playing from it. I feel like black removal is plenty-- if we badly need Bolts, I'd rather play the Processor version for Wasteland Strangler. But we don't need Bolts. Especially with Lilliana's/Go For the Throats/Dismembers/Murderous Cuts. I just don't see it. And Eldrazi Displacer isn't really Modern power level, despite what people are saying. If you have 3 mana to fiddle with your permanents, do it all day long. But it's a lot of mana to tie up to not really do a whole lot. I think that's a big part of the appeal for <>B is
a) The best curve and the best mana base (4 of Eye, 4 of Temple, 4 of Urborg to try and guarantee we can power out a house)
b) Utility lands (Sea Gate Wreckage)
c) Splashes do not provide a lot of compelling options (Path giving opponent tempo, Bolt is unnessecary, Kolaghan's Command is better suited to other decks, etc.)
I am generally really sympathetic to wanting to play less of the "enablers" - they really are all bad maindeck cards. But I'm unconvinced we have better options than the Processors. Bearer of Silence most of the time is really going to be a 2/1 for two, which is awful. We need four actual lands to get full value, and we have so many better things to do by the time we get to that spot on the curve. I think Matter Reshaper is probably better than Strangler in my opinion, but I am very unsure about my judgment. Modern has a lot of removal that exiles, and since we have few ways to kill our own Reshaper, he is pretty weak when we are desperate for answers because our opponent might be able to just get around it without letting us block (or just outright killing us where Strangler, being a piece of removal, would have saved us). Also, it's too small to really draw any good removal spells, so it's likely going to get into states where it just stares at a bigger creature - it doesn't advance the board very meaningfully. As for Blight Herder, I agree that Reality Smasher can be a fine replacement, but he can't be a fine replacement both for Herder and Sower+Ulamog. We need another option, and I'm not sure a comparable one exists (that we know of yet). I'm pretty sure Endless One fails the midrange test - it's not removal, it's not undercosted for what it is (would you play Tarmogoyf if it costed 3G?), and it just isn't a two-for-one most of the time. Hence why I was suggesting earlier that we concede and play the Sower+Ulamog package, although admittedly, Sower by itself is also not great, but the payoff of Ulamog is terrific.
There are three alternatives that I can think of:
1) Playing Blight Herder alongside Smasher and playing fewer of the bad enablers. I think you might be able to get away with fewer of them if you only have a few Blight Herders to enable.
2) Playing something else in those slots other than a threat. We could just play more reactive spells like Kolaghan's Command. Or we could be brave and play Bob. It's not ridiculous; I've played a lot of Vintage 2/1 control (where the deck contains 4 Forces, Blightsteel Colossus, and Jace TMS). Or we could play some other decent midrange value creature like Fulminator Mage. I don't know if these options make us too threat light, though.
3) Splashing White instead of Red for Lingering Souls and Eldrazi Displacer, which are both pretty good midrange cards. The sad part is that Bolt fits much better than Path with our gameplan. The way midrange decks lose is by getting out tempoed, and Path accelerates your opponent.
Great points. I have brought up the idea of Blight Herder alongside Reality Smasher. At least Blight Herder is an actually good card, unlike Oblivion Sower without an Ulamog to ramp to. I kind of like the idea of Bojuka Bogs + Blight Herders, although it's probably backbreaking for this deck to play a land that enters tapped and only taps for one B. So probably just the 4-of Relics and that's all.
I disagree with the red splash. Kolaghan's Command is probably the only card I'd be interested in playing from it. I feel like black removal is plenty-- if we badly need Bolts, I'd rather play the Processor version for Wasteland Strangler. But we don't need Bolts. Especially with Lilliana's/Go For the Throats/Dismembers/Murderous Cuts. I just don't see it. And Eldrazi Displacer isn't really Modern power level, despite what people are saying. If you have 3 mana to fiddle with your permanents, do it all day long. But it's a lot of mana to tie up to not really do a whole lot. I think that's a big part of the appeal for <>B is
a) The best curve and the best mana base (4 of Eye, 4 of Temple, 4 of Urborg to try and guarantee we can power out a house)
b) Utility lands (Sea Gate Wreckage)
c) Splashes do not provide a lot of compelling options (Path giving opponent tempo, Bolt is unnessecary, Kolaghan's Command is better suited to other decks, etc.)
Sorry about the splash discussion, forgot that this is really about the mono-black version, but in the spirit of development, let me make a couple points about the red splash as it compares to the mono-black version:
1) Lightning Bolt: As a reactive spell, I like Bolt more than most just because experience with Jund and Abzan has taught me that the difference between 1 mana and 2 mana is huge when it comes to dealing with aggro, but I can understand your point of view that it isn't strictly needed in the maindeck as removal. However, Bolt can be used proactively - it burns face. That's nice when you run clearly aggressive cards like Reality Smasher because you often can close the game a turn faster with just a little reach. It's like how you burn people out with Bolt in Jund pretty frequently. Is there an flexible effect (i.e. can be used both proactively and reactively) like this that exists in <>B? I fear that if we just load up on 100% reactive things like Dismember, we're going to face decks like Tron and just have too many dead cards.
2) The sideboard - I think it gets much, much worse without the red or white splashes since we don't have any good lifegain or any cheap ways to deal with problematic permanents if we're just <>B. Just look at the sideboards of the <>BW and <>BR builds - they're mostly cards in the splash color. I think it will be a top priority for this deck to patch some of these holes.
I am generally really sympathetic to wanting to play less of the "enablers" - they really are all bad maindeck cards. But I'm unconvinced we have better options than the Processors. Bearer of Silence most of the time is really going to be a 2/1 for two, which is awful. We need four actual lands to get full value, and we have so many better things to do by the time we get to that spot on the curve. I think Matter Reshaper is probably better than Strangler in my opinion, but I am very unsure about my judgment. Modern has a lot of removal that exiles, and since we have few ways to kill our own Reshaper, he is pretty weak when we are desperate for answers because our opponent might be able to just get around it without letting us block (or just outright killing us where Strangler, being a piece of removal, would have saved us). Also, it's too small to really draw any good removal spells, so it's likely going to get into states where it just stares at a bigger creature - it doesn't advance the board very meaningfully. As for Blight Herder, I agree that Reality Smasher can be a fine replacement, but he can't be a fine replacement both for Herder and Sower+Ulamog. We need another option, and I'm not sure a comparable one exists (that we know of yet). I'm pretty sure Endless One fails the midrange test - it's not removal, it's not undercosted for what it is (would you play Tarmogoyf if it costed 3G?), and it just isn't a two-for-one most of the time. Hence why I was suggesting earlier that we concede and play the Sower+Ulamog package, although admittedly, Sower by itself is also not great, but the payoff of Ulamog is terrific.
There are three alternatives that I can think of:
1) Playing Blight Herder alongside Smasher and playing fewer of the bad enablers. I think you might be able to get away with fewer of them if you only have a few Blight Herders to enable.
2) Playing something else in those slots other than a threat. We could just play more reactive spells like Kolaghan's Command. Or we could be brave and play Bob. It's not ridiculous; I've played a lot of Vintage 2/1 control (where the deck contains 4 Forces, Blightsteel Colossus, and Jace TMS). Or we could play some other decent midrange value creature like Fulminator Mage. I don't know if these options make us too threat light, though.
3) Splashing White instead of Red for Lingering Souls and Eldrazi Displacer, which are both pretty good midrange cards. The sad part is that Bolt fits much better than Path with our gameplan. The way midrange decks lose is by getting out tempoed, and Path accelerates your opponent.
Great points. I have brought up the idea of Blight Herder alongside Reality Smasher. At least Blight Herder is an actually good card, unlike Oblivion Sower without an Ulamog to ramp to. I kind of like the idea of Bojuka Bogs + Blight Herders, although it's probably backbreaking for this deck to play a land that enters tapped and only taps for one B. So probably just the 4-of Relics and that's all.
I disagree with the red splash. Kolaghan's Command is probably the only card I'd be interested in playing from it. I feel like black removal is plenty-- if we badly need Bolts, I'd rather play the Processor version for Wasteland Strangler. But we don't need Bolts. Especially with Lilliana's/Go For the Throats/Dismembers/Murderous Cuts. I just don't see it. And Eldrazi Displacer isn't really Modern power level, despite what people are saying. If you have 3 mana to fiddle with your permanents, do it all day long. But it's a lot of mana to tie up to not really do a whole lot. I think that's a big part of the appeal for <>B is
a) The best curve and the best mana base (4 of Eye, 4 of Temple, 4 of Urborg to try and guarantee we can power out a house)
b) Utility lands (Sea Gate Wreckage)
c) Splashes do not provide a lot of compelling options (Path giving opponent tempo, Bolt is unnessecary, Kolaghan's Command is better suited to other decks, etc.)
Sorry about the splash discussion, forgot that this is really about the mono-black version, but in the spirit of development, let me make a couple points about the red splash as it compares to the mono-black version:
1) Lightning Bolt: As a reactive spell, I like Bolt more than most just because experience with Jund and Abzan has taught me that the difference between 1 mana and 2 mana is huge when it comes to dealing with aggro, but I can understand your point of view that it isn't strictly needed in the maindeck as removal. However, Bolt can be used proactively - it burns face. That's nice when you run clearly aggressive cards like Reality Smasher because you often can close the game a turn faster with just a little reach. It's like how you burn people out with Bolt in Jund pretty frequently. Is there an flexible effect (i.e. can be used both proactively and reactively) like this that exists in <>B? I fear that if we just load up on 100% reactive things like Dismember, we're going to face decks like Tron and just have too many dead cards.
2) The sideboard - I think it gets much, much worse without the red or white splashes since we don't have any good lifegain or any cheap ways to deal with problematic permanents if we're just <>B. Just look at the sideboards of the <>BW and <>BR builds - they're mostly cards in the splash color. I think it will be a top priority for this deck to patch some of these holes.
Good point on Bolt. I agree it would be great to have a proactive and highly efficent burn spell like that as well. However, is it a bit of a luxury? I just don't see how we're going to get a red mana source within our first 3 turns- I don't mind Temple, Eye of Ugin, into Mountain or Blood Crypt, or fetchland, or whatever, but that leaves us with 2 mana come turn 3 instead of 3 with a Tomb of Urborg. On top of that, I think the reliance on nonbasic lands seriously has to be considered. We're going to be softlocked by Blood Moons as it is.
I agree that if we splash anything it should probably be Red or potentially white, but I don't know if this deck really wants to be a 3 colour deck. It's definitely a cost to consider. I'm not really sold that a splash is needed yet, and I'm really not certain it's even possible. It's just too much of a strain on the mana base for some luxuries like Lightning Bolt. (Being able to burn someone out for example)
What do you guys think about Night of Souls' Betrayal plus Warping Wail? Auotkills Burn and Infect drops while also dropping bigger things into Warping Wail kill range. I think being able to hit double BB is a big boon for the <>B version, whether it's Processor or Midrange version.
Okay, so the full spoiler is now out guys. We didn't get any more bomb colorless guys, so I feel like Blight Herder or Endless One are back in. I especially like Blight Herder because I don't mind casting a 5/5 for 3 lands regardless of the Processing trigger and if we happen to be running some exile effects then we're really in business. Now that we have the full spoiler- what do you think, Midrange or Processing? I am still leaning Midrange despite not getting any more applicable cards, mostly for the excellent points outlined by Bjamman.
Okay, so the full spoiler is now out guys. We didn't get any more bomb colorless guys, so I feel like Blight Herder or Endless One are back in. I especially like Blight Herder because I don't mind casting a 5/5 for 3 lands regardless of the Processing trigger and if we happen to be running some exile effects then we're really in business. Now that we have the full spoiler- what do you think, Midrange or Processing? I am still leaning Midrange despite not getting any more applicable cards, mostly for the excellent points outlined by Bjamman.
Personally, I feel like all of these cards work exceedingly well alongside one another. I don't think it's an either/or situation at all.
My instinct is that Seer + Herder + Smasher is more than enough fat and value to reliably trump all the other non-Eldrazi fair decks. I want to not play Sower + Ulamog and try to gear the maindeck towards shoring up the weaknesses to combo and aggro.
Well, I think I'm going to stay away from the mid range plan, doesn't seem to be enough value. I'm going more for the 241 plan where i think this deck strength lies, then ramp into Ulamog.
The Lands are 241's, Wasteland Strangler is a 241, Blight Hereder and Oblivion Sower are tanks with ramp 241, then Ulamog is a 341 LOL!!!
The new cards did add to the deck with Matter Reshaper, and Thought-knot seer, which are both 241's that ill use. Endless one and mimic are ok beater but just don't add tempo to the deck. may be good with Funeral Charm, as I have seen on another thread, and I use in Dark Depths!
Bearer of Scilence is a card i have been looking at, people saying he is too slow, but still a good 241 against some decks, doesn't beat much with 2 pw, n can't block. Reality smasher I like against control, and will probably use it in the sideboard, But a good beater for this deck if that is the plan. If you are using Lili and Bearer, then that new board wipe would be ok to run. hit that first giving -2/-2 and then finish up with a Bearer or lili next turn
A new thread to discuss the potential of black and colorless Elrazi only. Discussion is fine to propose "Should we splash white? Is the Processor version better?" but should be used as a lens to view the <>B deck, not to undermine it. Essentially, discussion of other variant is good, but posting those decklists should be done in their respective threads. Here is where we build the monoblack/colorless version.
This is a deck that makes the most out of a strong curve backed by hand disruption to overwhelm opponent's with big Eldrazi as early as turn 4 and then hopefully run away with the game. It is much like Mardu Midrange in the idea that it wants to stick a difficult-to-remove threat and then back it up with disruption. The power in this version is the ability to start doing that as early as turn 2! On top of that, we have a nigh-unbeatable curve that probably enables us to steal a few free wins when it pans out.
As opposed to the Processor version we're not focusing on ramping into Ulamog with Oblivion Sower or playing a control game with some Blight Herders but simply jamming the board with a threat and then removing their ability to answer it. Despite that, the deck has potential for a lot of grindy wins as well such as Lilliana of the Veil + Sea Gate Wreckage.
Here's a great article by Craig Wescoe that outlines another potential decklist for this archetype (Albeit with more Processing than most.)
A potentials decklist might look like:
4x Eldrazi Temple
4x Eye of Ugin
3x Tomb of Urborg
2x Sea Gate Wreckage
1x Cavern of Souls
8x Swamp
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
3x Thoughtsieze
Creature:
4x Reality Smasher
3x Thought-Knot Seer
4x Eldrazi Mimic
2x Blight Herder
4x Dismember
2x Warping Wail
1x Murderous Cut
Artifact:
4x Chalice of the Void
Planeswalker:
3x Lilliana of the Veil
Another potential deck list could look like the one listed here
http://modernnexus.com/turn-four-ulamog-reshaping-modern-with-eldrazi-stompy/
Discuss!
Modern: Eldrazi CB,
I feel like the 5/8 vanilla body for 6 is a little high end for what we want to be doing, but I'm not against adding some Processors whether it's Blight Herder or Oblivion Sower to help pad out our top end. I just don't see us being able to reasonably cast Ulamog the majority of the time and worried about seeing him in my opening hand. I'd rather commit to a strategy. That said, a 5/8 that puts more mana on the board isn't a bad thing even without Ulamog especially if it lets us power out larger Endless Ones, Hangerback Walkers, or etcetera.
Are we sacrificing too much of the deck's consistency to have Ulamog as a back-up plan?
Modern: Eldrazi CB,
C Kozilek C
GB Gitrog GB
G Titania G
WU Brago WU
GB MerenGB
Duel Commander Decks
UR Keranos UR
BRG Jund BRG
GR Tron GR GW Tron GW
C Eldrazi Tron (SB) C
BG Lantern Control BG
UW Control (SB) UW
I wasn't recommending this for a primer, but would you rather have all discussion lumped into that thread or the midrange version ran here?
Modern: Eldrazi CB,
Onto the deck itself. 19 land seems quite low, even considering we get more value from our lands then most decks. Also, with only 7 black sources, T1 Inquisition of Kozilek will rarely happen. Personally, I would cut 1 Liliana of the Veil, 1 Thought-Knot Seer, 1 Warping Wail and 1 Sea Gate Wreckage from the main for +4 swamps. Also, I think -2 Murderous Cut and +2 Go for the Throat is correct.
I agree with the movement away from Oblivion Sower for this deck. It does too little for it's cost considering we aren't ramping or processing as much as other versions.
Matter Reshaper might have a home here. It has some dis-synergy with Endless One unfortunately, but it's a good value creature.
How is Eldrazi Mimic performing for you?
You value knowledge, logic, and deceit. You love to pursue wisdom but also to manipulate and deceive. At your best, you are brilliant and progressive. At your worst, you are treacherous and cold. Your symbol is a water droplet. Your enemies are green and red.
I've altered the title to avoid confusion. I think your deck suggestions are fantastic and could go over all the reasons they are right, but instead I will just change the deck in OP accordingly. Really good points made.
I'm just not sure what Matter Reshaper is putting on the board for us. When it puts a Lilliana on the field, it's fantastic. Otherwise, it's putting 2/2s, 2/1s, and lands which isn't really worth spots.
Eldrazi Mimics is fantastic to curve out with. It gives us a T1 play if we lead with a Temple/Eye instead of Urborg and scales with our game plan. Example:
>Eldrazi Temple, Eldrazi Mimic
>Eye of Ugin, Thought-Knot Seer, swing for 4
>Land, Reality Smasher, swing for 14
That's 18 damage by turn 3, where we would be at 9 damage without the Mimic. It speeds up our kill drastically. It's arguably winmore, but we're doubling our damage for 2 mana at basically no cost- We don't have a lot else to do turn 1 other than hand disruption and it's good to diversify are threats if they bring in Leyline from the board.
Thoughts?
Modern: Eldrazi CB,
C Kozilek C
GB Gitrog GB
G Titania G
WU Brago WU
GB MerenGB
Duel Commander Decks
UR Keranos UR
BRG Jund BRG
GR Tron GR GW Tron GW
C Eldrazi Tron (SB) C
BG Lantern Control BG
UW Control (SB) UW
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Eye of Ugin
4 Ghost Quarter
2 Sea Gate Wreckage
2 Cavern of Souls
6 Swamp
4 Eldrazi Mimic
4 Matter Reshaper
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Reality Smasher
2 Endbringer
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
2 Dismember
2 Spatial Contortion
It is possible that Bearer of Silence has a place in this deck. Very possible, indeed.
I like that this deck is no non-reliant on black. 8 Black spells, 2 of which are Dismember. That's it.
For reference, currently my mono black midrange build looks like this: http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/30-12-15-pTl-mono-black-eldrazi/
So I guess I should be looking for a "Mono Black Eldrazi Processor non-ramp focused midrange" thread? This is getting ridiculous. Lol.
Frontier: UBR Grixis Control | BRG Jund Delirium
That list looks sick! I love it
C Kozilek C
GB Gitrog GB
G Titania G
WU Brago WU
GB MerenGB
Duel Commander Decks
UR Keranos UR
BRG Jund BRG
GR Tron GR GW Tron GW
C Eldrazi Tron (SB) C
BG Lantern Control BG
UW Control (SB) UW
I think Eldrazi Midrange without processors has merit to it. I'm not sure if it is the best strategy, but it's one that I'm open to exploring, and what this thread is dedicated to.
We can judge whether or not to run Processors with a simple cost-benefit analysis.
What is the cost of running Processors? Some number of forced mainboard cards that put an opponent's cards into exile (not including Thought-Knot Seer because we're running that card anyways), plus 6-8 slots spent on cards to benefit from it. Lets look specifically at "the enablers" first.
Relic of Progenitus
Scrabbling Claws
Oblivion Sower
One of the core attributes of any good Midrange deck is that almost every card included does one of three things: 1) Pose a threat, 2) remove a threat or 3) create a 2-for-1 advantage. Do these enablers have any of these attributes? Oblivion Sower poses a late-game threat, but probably less so than Reality Smasher. Plus, Oblivion Sower is by far the least reliable of the enablers because it's 3-5 turns slower. It also becomes weaker in the absence of Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger because we don't need extra land all the time. As for the rocks: In some match-ups, such as Grixis and Jund, the rocks essentially trade with Tarmogoyf or a delve creature, which is great. In many match-ups, such as Burn or Infect, these cards offer minimal benefit. If these cards were actually good in the mainboard then you would see other decks running them in the main as well.
Oblivion Sower is, by itself, a reasonably good creature but not the best that this deck could be running.
The rocks are, by themselves, not worth mainboarding in many metas.
All of the enablers are on some level sub-optimal, so they pose a deck-building cost. The question now becomes: Are processors so much stronger than the next best creature that they off-set the cost of a few sub-optimal cards? Lets take a look.
Blight Herder
Wasteland Strangler
How much more powerful is an enabled Wasteland Strangler than the next best creature? The next best creature is most likely Bearer of Silence. Enabled Strangler is usually stronger than Bearer because Strangler targets. Bearer will occasionally be better in match-ups like Tron, Bloom Titan, Living End and Bogles. Strangler is also a turn faster and has a more useful body, which is quite important. The power-level between an enabled Strangler and Bearer of Silence is pretty big. However, an unenabled Strangler has the power level of a draft common, so Bearer makes up for some lost power in pure consistency.
How much more powerful is an enabled Blight Herder than the next best creature? Reality Smasher is at least comparable by itself. If you're already running the Smasher, then Endless One is not a bad alternative; it lacks the raw power and utility but offers far greater flexibility. Herder is unique in how much board presence it can create, but requiring two cards in exile is neither easy nor consistent. There are more consistent options available for this deck.
Do the Processors offset the costs of running enablers? Based on my reasoning above, I believe that the answer is no unless 1) You play against a lot of decks where Relic of Progenitus is good by itself, or 2) You play Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger. The Eldrazi Processors and enablers have a home in a different Eldrazi deck. This thread is for Eldrazi players who believe that the deckbuilding cost of running enablers is too high to justify the Processors.
@Viagrasaurusrex
I misread the card; you're right.
@OP
Even if you don't put anything into play with Matter Reshaper, it still draws you a card. It's not an auto-include type creature but I think he's interesting.
You value knowledge, logic, and deceit. You love to pursue wisdom but also to manipulate and deceive. At your best, you are brilliant and progressive. At your worst, you are treacherous and cold. Your symbol is a water droplet. Your enemies are green and red.
That's a great point. I think we might even want the Chalices mainboard since they hit so much of the format. Replace Warping Wail with them? (Warping Wail at it's best when it hits pesky 1 or 2 drops)
That's a great looking list. I almost regret ordering the Processor version of the deck for paper (Spoilers: I plagarized LordGrimpow's for laziness) just a few hours ago. When Oath launches, I will be upgrading it to either the Midrange (Thought-Knot, Reality Smasher) build or perhaps to a ramp-focused build like yours. Do you have any expectations to add to your deck come Oath?
@Bjaamman
I guess, but I'm not sure it's worth paying 3 mana for a 3/2 that draws you a card when it dies. Especially in a deck like this that perfers to count by 2s.
Modern: Eldrazi CB,
I am generally really sympathetic to wanting to play less of the "enablers" - they really are all bad maindeck cards. But I'm unconvinced we have better options than the Processors. Bearer of Silence most of the time is really going to be a 2/1 for two, which is awful. We need four actual lands to get full value, and we have so many better things to do by the time we get to that spot on the curve. I think Matter Reshaper is probably better than Strangler in my opinion, but I am very unsure about my judgment. Modern has a lot of removal that exiles, and since we have few ways to kill our own Reshaper, he is pretty weak when we are desperate for answers because our opponent might be able to just get around it without letting us block (or just outright killing us where Strangler, being a piece of removal, would have saved us). Also, it's too small to really draw any good removal spells, so it's likely going to get into states where it just stares at a bigger creature - it doesn't advance the board very meaningfully. As for Blight Herder, I agree that Reality Smasher can be a fine replacement, but he can't be a fine replacement both for Herder and Sower+Ulamog. We need another option, and I'm not sure a comparable one exists (that we know of yet). I'm pretty sure Endless One fails the midrange test - it's not removal, it's not undercosted for what it is (would you play Tarmogoyf if it costed 3G?), and it just isn't a two-for-one most of the time. Hence why I was suggesting earlier that we concede and play the Sower+Ulamog package, although admittedly, Sower by itself is also not great, but the payoff of Ulamog is terrific.
There are three alternatives that I can think of:
1) Playing Blight Herder alongside Smasher and playing fewer of the bad enablers. I think you might be able to get away with fewer of them if you only have a few Blight Herders to enable.
2) Playing something else in those slots other than a threat. We could just play more reactive spells like Kolaghan's Command. Or we could be brave and play Bob. It's not ridiculous; I've played a lot of Vintage 2/1 control (where the deck contains 4 Forces, Blightsteel Colossus, and Jace TMS). Or we could play some other decent midrange value creature like Fulminator Mage. I don't know if these options make us too threat light, though.
3) Splashing White instead of Red for Lingering Souls and Eldrazi Displacer, which are both pretty good midrange cards. The sad part is that Bolt fits much better than Path with our gameplan. The way midrange decks lose is by getting out tempoed, and Path accelerates your opponent.
Great points. I have brought up the idea of Blight Herder alongside Reality Smasher. At least Blight Herder is an actually good card, unlike Oblivion Sower without an Ulamog to ramp to. I kind of like the idea of Bojuka Bogs + Blight Herders, although it's probably backbreaking for this deck to play a land that enters tapped and only taps for one B. So probably just the 4-of Relics and that's all.
I disagree with the red splash. Kolaghan's Command is probably the only card I'd be interested in playing from it. I feel like black removal is plenty-- if we badly need Bolts, I'd rather play the Processor version for Wasteland Strangler. But we don't need Bolts. Especially with Lilliana's/Go For the Throats/Dismembers/Murderous Cuts. I just don't see it. And Eldrazi Displacer isn't really Modern power level, despite what people are saying. If you have 3 mana to fiddle with your permanents, do it all day long. But it's a lot of mana to tie up to not really do a whole lot. I think that's a big part of the appeal for <>B is
a) The best curve and the best mana base (4 of Eye, 4 of Temple, 4 of Urborg to try and guarantee we can power out a house)
b) Utility lands (Sea Gate Wreckage)
c) Splashes do not provide a lot of compelling options (Path giving opponent tempo, Bolt is unnessecary, Kolaghan's Command is better suited to other decks, etc.)
Modern: Eldrazi CB,
Black seems like the way to go, still working on the sideboard
3 Eye of Ugin
3 Urborg Tomb
4 Ghost Quarter
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Wasetes
7 swamp
4 Relic of Progentius
4 Thoughtseize
4 Sergical Extraction
3 Dismember
2 conuduit of ruin
3 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Wasteland Strangler
4 Blight Herder
3 Oblivion Sower
2 Ulamog, the Ceascless Hunger
or with the 4 land package
4 Eye of Ugin
4 Urborg Tomb
4 Ghost Quarter
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Wasetes
5 swamp
4 Relic of Progentius
4 Thoughtseize
4 Sergical Extraction
3 Dismember
2 conuduit of ruin
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Wasteland Strangler
4 Blight Herder
3 Oblivion Sower
2 Ulamog, the Ceascless Hunger
Legacy: Dark Depths, Pox, Eldrazi Agro
Vintage: Dark Depths, Grey Orge
Pauper: Faerie Ninja
7pt Highlander: BW Combo
EDH: Horobi, (t)Toshiro, (t)Isamaru
1) Lightning Bolt: As a reactive spell, I like Bolt more than most just because experience with Jund and Abzan has taught me that the difference between 1 mana and 2 mana is huge when it comes to dealing with aggro, but I can understand your point of view that it isn't strictly needed in the maindeck as removal. However, Bolt can be used proactively - it burns face. That's nice when you run clearly aggressive cards like Reality Smasher because you often can close the game a turn faster with just a little reach. It's like how you burn people out with Bolt in Jund pretty frequently. Is there an flexible effect (i.e. can be used both proactively and reactively) like this that exists in <>B? I fear that if we just load up on 100% reactive things like Dismember, we're going to face decks like Tron and just have too many dead cards.
2) The sideboard - I think it gets much, much worse without the red or white splashes since we don't have any good lifegain or any cheap ways to deal with problematic permanents if we're just <>B. Just look at the sideboards of the <>BW and <>BR builds - they're mostly cards in the splash color. I think it will be a top priority for this deck to patch some of these holes.
Good point on Bolt. I agree it would be great to have a proactive and highly efficent burn spell like that as well. However, is it a bit of a luxury? I just don't see how we're going to get a red mana source within our first 3 turns- I don't mind Temple, Eye of Ugin, into Mountain or Blood Crypt, or fetchland, or whatever, but that leaves us with 2 mana come turn 3 instead of 3 with a Tomb of Urborg. On top of that, I think the reliance on nonbasic lands seriously has to be considered. We're going to be softlocked by Blood Moons as it is.
I agree that if we splash anything it should probably be Red or potentially white, but I don't know if this deck really wants to be a 3 colour deck. It's definitely a cost to consider. I'm not really sold that a splash is needed yet, and I'm really not certain it's even possible. It's just too much of a strain on the mana base for some luxuries like Lightning Bolt. (Being able to burn someone out for example)
What do you guys think about Night of Souls' Betrayal plus Warping Wail? Auotkills Burn and Infect drops while also dropping bigger things into Warping Wail kill range. I think being able to hit double BB is a big boon for the <>B version, whether it's Processor or Midrange version.
Modern: Eldrazi CB,
Modern: Eldrazi CB,
Personally, I feel like all of these cards work exceedingly well alongside one another. I don't think it's an either/or situation at all.
The Lands are 241's, Wasteland Strangler is a 241, Blight Hereder and Oblivion Sower are tanks with ramp 241, then Ulamog is a 341 LOL!!!
The new cards did add to the deck with Matter Reshaper, and Thought-knot seer, which are both 241's that ill use. Endless one and mimic are ok beater but just don't add tempo to the deck. may be good with Funeral Charm, as I have seen on another thread, and I use in Dark Depths!
Bearer of Scilence is a card i have been looking at, people saying he is too slow, but still a good 241 against some decks, doesn't beat much with 2 pw, n can't block. Reality smasher I like against control, and will probably use it in the sideboard, But a good beater for this deck if that is the plan. If you are using Lili and Bearer, then that new board wipe would be ok to run. hit that first giving -2/-2 and then finish up with a Bearer or lili next turn
Legacy: Dark Depths, Pox, Eldrazi Agro
Vintage: Dark Depths, Grey Orge
Pauper: Faerie Ninja
7pt Highlander: BW Combo
EDH: Horobi, (t)Toshiro, (t)Isamaru