Man, Im so done with this absurd conversation. Please, go test it. Good luck.
Can't havnt recieved my cards yet Have been following the deck since 20 dec and ordered the cards right after xmas, but due to new year both the bank and the postal services have been on holiday so havnt been able to get my cards yet.
So all I can do is reading these forums, watching all videos of this deck (and its variants) on youtube, stuying decklists from tournaments and watching streamers do their thing.
Oh and I don't think your comment added much to the discussion except for flaming, but ill leave you to it.
You've literally never played the deck and you're suggesting to take out one of the cornerstone lands. Come on, man. Jesus.
Well i suggested Vault of the archangel, and ppl seems to be playing that ^^
You're hardly the first person to think of Vault. It was on my list of "What would go in a white version" As soon as I saw the BR version on goldfish.
Actually, I think Eldrazi Mimic is better than the endless one because unlike endless one, the mimic can late game grow to enormous size if it isn't answered. It copies the power and toughness of whatever enters play that the player chooses, so ultimately down the line if we land an ulamog that little bugger just became a 10/10 vanilla face smasher. It would still be the first cut if I was having trouble fitting something more useful or utilitarian, but it seems like a solid option.
Really, the sky is the limit for what we can do with the deck. For mono-black we basically got our requirements figured out for the core lands so it comes down to what eldrazi and support spells we can fit in our remaining 35ish cards mainboard and 15 card sideboard.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Hey, love the deck and the idear of this deck, have been brewing with a deck like this in standard.
I might buy the deck but for now i will just ask some questions, i have read a big part of the posts now and the BG version just seams nice! Have anyone tried playing it?
There are some cards i would like to discuss and hear other peoples opinions on. Evolutionary leap seam pretty good, sac a scion and get a better creature? It could really get some value. Have anyone tried playing with 2 in the main deck? if so can they post their thoughts it? Ooze Seams really strong!! it will work well against aggro deck because of its lifegain and the quick increase in size will help secure the victory(it might be a win-more card though)
These card + Ancient stirrings could make the BG version pretty strong.
Also i like the interaction with Flickerwisp + Wasteland strangler even though it might be more for Death and Taxes decks than ours
Anyway like the deck and will start testing the different things on xmage now.
ps. if anyone have already made a post about the BG version and i just missed it please tell me which page its on
The problem with both Leap and Ooze is that getting Green mana is very difficult for the deck. Getting your first Green isn't too hard, but double-green definitely is - and the more you push towards being able to hit GG or GGG, the more you remove the explosive potential of the deck (as you're cutting stuff like Eye and Urborg), or you're hampering its disruptive ability (by cutting Caverns, Bogs, or Ghost Quarters).
With this in mind, Evolutionary Leap and Scavenging Ooze aren't tremendous cards for the deck, as they are very difficult to use multiple times in a turn.
The biggest draws to green are Ancient Stirrings as you've said, and access to Abrupt Decay in the board. The green splash is talked about quite a bit in this thread, just take a peek back at previous pages.
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To be honest I think they should both be played together. 8 creatures that can be played for free with Eye add a lot more consistency rather than 4 and makes a critical mass of early threats which is much more resistant to removal. Also endless one plays a critical role in keeping you on curve (or above curve by other decks standard due to our mana), because without that momentum Mimic becomes a lot worse.
I'm seeing a lot of discussion about "aggro Eldrazi" or "control Eldrazi" like this and I just want to chime in, as someone who has played GBx decks exclusively in Modern for the last three years, that it's important to not take the terms "aggro" and "control" too seriously in the context of this deck.
CBx Eldrazi is a midrange deck. It just takes the basic GBx disruption package and replaces all the GBx creatures with a much stronger and synergistic suite of Eldrazi. When we talk about "aggro" or "control" versions of this deck, therefore, we should keep in mind that we are talking about moving a little in one direction or the other within the spectrum of midrange decks (i.e. the way Jund is the "aggro" version of GBx, but is not an "aggro deck" in any sense).
Trying to make the most aggressive possible Eldrazi deck by cutting all the Blight Herders and Oblivion Sowers will leave you with a midrange shell whose creatures do not fit the midrange game plan. The idea of midrange decks in general is that you win all the topdeck wars - you have the best card quality and all your cards are extremely mana efficient for what they do. Aggro decks like Zoo or Affinity do not run so many disruptive spells because they are not trying to end up with both players in topdeck mode. The decks that are being posted as "aggro decks" look like they will get into topdeck situations (because they run so much disruption) and then not be able to close the game. They will topdeck the 2/1 flyer or the Mimic while the opponent topdecks something better, and then they will lose.
For the "mono" black version has anyone yet tested Mutavault? My only thought would be that it might help a bit against aggro as an early blocker. The early trade with Goblin Guide or something could save 6 our so damage at the cost of tempo. It may also help with Liliana proofing a bit.
Don't have my deck yet, so I can't do anything other than ask about what else has been done.
We're at the beginning of something Really Excellent here.
So I am thinking of a curve for this deck.
>Eldrazi Temple, pass
>Eye of Ugin, Thought-Knot Seer
> Urborg, Reality Smasher, Inquistion of Kozilek
You pull the 2 best cards out of their hand and stick a 5/5 with Trample and Haste that's going to further shrink their hand size to remove. Combine with Lilliana of the Veil and Sea Gate Wreckage and grind them out. Is the processor/Progenitus angle even required anymore?
I am getting the impression that the processing angle is not really valuable. Relic of Progenitus isn't a fantastic card in most matchups so you are running suboptimal cards to enable a so-so pay-off. Against Bloom for example, you're running nearly 8 dead cards and this is true for basically any combo match-up that doesn't use the graveyard (So Tron as well)
I like the direction of a <>B deck here and capitalizing on the turn-2 4 mana Eldrazi (That protect themselves/don't die to removal) to overtake the game before it begins.
Maindeck graveyard hate is actually one of this deck's true strengths, though. And Processing for value is a key part of the game plan.
Not to say that a good relic-free build isn't possible (or maybe even better), but it won't be the same deck any more than Mono-U Tron is the same deck as RG Tron.
On the mana base topic, I hate to bring it up in regards to Urborg but its something I think worth noting. In any 2-color build I do I usually run about 4 basics. Originally it was 3 Swamps and 1 off-color and then 2/2. Now its 3 with 1 Swamp because of Urborg. It seems silly to say that Black is the primary color so obviously you need more black sources right? Wrong. I often find its my off-color I have the hardest time finding and Urborg helps SO much in that regard. Urborg turns all my Islands or Plains into Watery Graves and Godless Shrines meaning that I can prioritize finding off-color lands because Urborg fixes my mana.
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Without the colorless requirements, the current deck has been able to soldier through a blood moon pretty easily, but the need to actually have colorless mana is going to be a problem, no?
That's part of the reason to play fetches with basics, getting a plains early in the game may be the difference between you being able to celestial purge or losing
Was wondering what peoples thoughts on a BGW Eldrazi build should look like? I really think cards like scavenging ooze, ancient stirrings, path to exile, and maybe lingering souls (if theres space), would work really well together for our game plan.
I was wondering why people were limiting themselves to just a Bx build and not Bxx? Is it really too hard to hit your colours with 6-7 temples?
Was wondering what peoples thoughts on a BGW Eldrazi build should look like? I really think cards like hive scavenging ooze, ancient stirrings, path to exile, and maybe lingering souls (if theres space), would work really well together for our game plan.
I was wondering why people were limiting themselves to just a Bx build and not Bxx? Is it really too hard to hit your colours with 6-7 temples?
It's really hard, precisely because you often want to use your early land drops on Temple or Eye. Your mana is actually already a little shaky in the normal BR and BW builds to the point where we can't realistically hope to cast things like Terminate or Tidehollow Sculler on time. Just count out the number of sources of each color and see for yourself. I think three colors is pretty much impossible.
Colorless is functionally a color for us, especially post-OGW. Bx is really BCx, and Bxx would be BCxx. Adding what would essentially be a fourth color is too much, especially since we can't just use a fetch/shock mana base (can't fetch C, mandatory 4x Temples, 2-4 Eyes, 2-4 Urborgs doesn't leave us with a lot of room for color fixing).
When I look at people trying to cram in all these new colorless Eldrazi, I've seen people cutting back on discard, removal, etc to do so. And I feel like this is wrong because they're what make us a great mindrange deck and allow us to fight through the aggro and combo. The less interactive we become, the more susceptible we become to these strategies.
As for the new Seer and Smasher, I'll probably be running 1-2 Seer, and that's it. I just can't see myself changing any more than that in my current configuration. As for Smasher, yes I agree it's great, but I'm not really looking for a more aggressive card like that right now. But Seer fills a gap between Strangler and Herder that I've been looking for, and I believe is justified for about 2 slots.
When I look at people trying to cram in all these new colorless Eldrazi, I've seen people cutting back on discard, removal, etc to do so. And I feel like this is wrong because they're what make us a great mindrange deck and allow us to fight through the aggro and combo. The less interactive we become, the more susceptible we become to these strategies.
As for the new Seer and Smasher, I'll probably be running 1-2 Seer, and that's it. I just can't see myself changing any more than that in my current configuration. As for Smasher, yes I agree it's great, but I'm not really looking for a more aggressive card like that right now. But Seer fills a gap between Strangler and Herder that I've been looking for, and I believe is justified for about 2 slots.
I agree with this. I generally play the U/B version for Ulamog's Nullifier which costs 4 mana and I like the additional creature in that slot. I play 3-4 of those. I can see Seer neatly fitting there in other color combos.
In regards to Smasher, I wonder if he maybe isn't better than Herder. I can count the number of times I've needed the Scions to cast Ulamog or anything else. I almost never end up in that situation (for what that's worth). Maybe a split could be good? I think that mid-game pressure before Sower and Ulamog could be a benefit to this deck in a way that Herder sometimes can't fulfill.
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If you're trying to get to the optimal number of turn 1 plays in modern (~9), in BW eldrazi, it's likely that 3 manlands and 6 discard spells is going to be stronger than treating Relic like a virtual 2-drop that doesn't do much except fuel blight herder and strangler.
So, herder does something very good which is ramp you to Ulamog early. Strangler is basically just a hopefully 2-for-1 vs. aggro decks, but only if you've started with an exiler. I've seen it as consistently the worst card in the deck, as it's so conditional upon both putting cards in the yard and exiling them. This is especially bad vs. Merfolk (as it usually requires t1 discard, t2 relic, t3 strangler).
The problem is that strangler and herder provide a lot of your virtual card advantage in the deck, and are really solid against aggro strategies. You're far more likely to get ground out on cards without them.
One of the things I find really enticing about the UB color set is having two really playable sources of exiles (Delay and Ashiok), and more powerful processors (nullifier especially). It's possible that Thought-Knot Seer is enough to make that archetype viable (since it's a pretty likely turn 2-3 speed bump for aggro, when combined with discard and delay).
I don't know if I would cut anything for matter reshaper. Best case scenario we have a Wasteland Strangler top decked that comes into play for free and processes stuff, but most of the time we'd just get a free card in hand.
There's lots of good eldrazi in the new set, but not every one of them is going to fit in Bx or BCx builds. There's quite a few that seem like they are there purely to fuel the upcoming Shadows over Innistrad block.
Also, just to collectively reiterate some stuff talked about earlier in the thread: When people were getting excited over Reality smasher, thought knot seer, etc, what cards in the original Bx build are these taking the place of? It seems like endless one is still a prime card that fills a necessary role as a flexible early drop, yet that is the one most folks seem to think is getting the axe to make room for these other two cards.
Thought Knot seer seems to be at earliest a Turn 2 play and reality smasher at earliest a Turn 3 play. However, wouldn't we want to play Blight Herder on turn 3? It seems like part of the power for the deck is having the mana to play things mid game that are obscenely huge like Oblivion Sower and Ulamog, the ceaseless hunger. If we dilute too much we'd start losing our advantage, so it seems like we'd more so run things like Thought Knot Seer as a replacement to our discard suite that also happens to be a body. Reality smasher looks way too much like a sideboard tech.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Anyone having concerns about mana base requirements and ALSO wanting to jam new Eldrazi should be considering the mono black build first, NOT the BW build. Colorless is now a color. You HAVE to adjust your thinking to reflect this.
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You're hardly the first person to think of Vault. It was on my list of "What would go in a white version" As soon as I saw the BR version on goldfish.
The build I was proposing is more midrange anyways. Around 20 threats backed by disruption. It's not straight-up aggro by any means.
Really, the sky is the limit for what we can do with the deck. For mono-black we basically got our requirements figured out for the core lands so it comes down to what eldrazi and support spells we can fit in our remaining 35ish cards mainboard and 15 card sideboard.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
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StaffThe problem with both Leap and Ooze is that getting Green mana is very difficult for the deck. Getting your first Green isn't too hard, but double-green definitely is - and the more you push towards being able to hit GG or GGG, the more you remove the explosive potential of the deck (as you're cutting stuff like Eye and Urborg), or you're hampering its disruptive ability (by cutting Caverns, Bogs, or Ghost Quarters).
With this in mind, Evolutionary Leap and Scavenging Ooze aren't tremendous cards for the deck, as they are very difficult to use multiple times in a turn.
The biggest draws to green are Ancient Stirrings as you've said, and access to Abrupt Decay in the board. The green splash is talked about quite a bit in this thread, just take a peek back at previous pages.
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CBx Eldrazi is a midrange deck. It just takes the basic GBx disruption package and replaces all the GBx creatures with a much stronger and synergistic suite of Eldrazi. When we talk about "aggro" or "control" versions of this deck, therefore, we should keep in mind that we are talking about moving a little in one direction or the other within the spectrum of midrange decks (i.e. the way Jund is the "aggro" version of GBx, but is not an "aggro deck" in any sense).
Trying to make the most aggressive possible Eldrazi deck by cutting all the Blight Herders and Oblivion Sowers will leave you with a midrange shell whose creatures do not fit the midrange game plan. The idea of midrange decks in general is that you win all the topdeck wars - you have the best card quality and all your cards are extremely mana efficient for what they do. Aggro decks like Zoo or Affinity do not run so many disruptive spells because they are not trying to end up with both players in topdeck mode. The decks that are being posted as "aggro decks" look like they will get into topdeck situations (because they run so much disruption) and then not be able to close the game. They will topdeck the 2/1 flyer or the Mimic while the opponent topdecks something better, and then they will lose.
Don't have my deck yet, so I can't do anything other than ask about what else has been done.
Modern:
EDH:
Not to say that a good relic-free build isn't possible (or maybe even better), but it won't be the same deck any more than Mono-U Tron is the same deck as RG Tron.
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Without the colorless requirements, the current deck has been able to soldier through a blood moon pretty easily, but the need to actually have colorless mana is going to be a problem, no?
~Modern~
BGURWhiteless Death's ShadowRUGB
GWRUSaheeli BlinkURWG
RGBUGood Ole' DredgeUBGR
~Commander~
URWNarset, Enlightened Time-TravelerWRU
UBRWBreya, Etherium ArchitectWRBU
A Prolific Loser To Blood Moon
I was wondering why people were limiting themselves to just a Bx build and not Bxx? Is it really too hard to hit your colours with 6-7 temples?
C Serum Eldrazi
Legacy:
C Eldrazi
C Mud
W Soldier Stompy
R Bread (big red stompy)
WU Spirit Blade
WUG Meat Hooks
WUBGR Blue Dredge
As for the new Seer and Smasher, I'll probably be running 1-2 Seer, and that's it. I just can't see myself changing any more than that in my current configuration. As for Smasher, yes I agree it's great, but I'm not really looking for a more aggressive card like that right now. But Seer fills a gap between Strangler and Herder that I've been looking for, and I believe is justified for about 2 slots.
C Kozilek C
GB Gitrog GB
G Titania G
WU Brago WU
GB MerenGB
Duel Commander Decks
UR Keranos UR
BRG Jund BRG
GR Tron GR GW Tron GW
C Eldrazi Tron (SB) C
BG Lantern Control BG
UW Control (SB) UW
I agree with this. I generally play the U/B version for Ulamog's Nullifier which costs 4 mana and I like the additional creature in that slot. I play 3-4 of those. I can see Seer neatly fitting there in other color combos.
In regards to Smasher, I wonder if he maybe isn't better than Herder. I can count the number of times I've needed the Scions to cast Ulamog or anything else. I almost never end up in that situation (for what that's worth). Maybe a split could be good? I think that mid-game pressure before Sower and Ulamog could be a benefit to this deck in a way that Herder sometimes can't fulfill.
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Value Town is getting a bit crowded as of late.
Blocks goblin guide, trades death, puts strangler into play, kills other guide after processing suspended rift bolt.
one can dream
WBGCompany
God... so much value... now what the hell do i cut?!
Modern : Huh?
EDH : UBGW Thrasios / Tymna Combo UBGW // GRW Mayael Big Stuff GRW // GU Edric Timewalkers GU
Cute card but, no ...
At least on the BW version
He's better on the aggro i think
GXTronGX
RWxBurnRWx
1 Spellskite
3 Endless One
4 Matter Reshaper
4 Reality Smasher
3 Oblivion Sower
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
2 Expedition Map
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Warping Wail
1 Dismember
1 Slaughter Pact
2 Liliana of the Veil
4 Eldrazi Temple
3 Eye of Ugin
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Swamp
2 Mountain
1 Blood Crypt
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Sulfurous Springs
3 Ghost Quarter
1 Sea Gate Wreckage
So, herder does something very good which is ramp you to Ulamog early. Strangler is basically just a hopefully 2-for-1 vs. aggro decks, but only if you've started with an exiler. I've seen it as consistently the worst card in the deck, as it's so conditional upon both putting cards in the yard and exiling them. This is especially bad vs. Merfolk (as it usually requires t1 discard, t2 relic, t3 strangler).
The problem is that strangler and herder provide a lot of your virtual card advantage in the deck, and are really solid against aggro strategies. You're far more likely to get ground out on cards without them.
One of the things I find really enticing about the UB color set is having two really playable sources of exiles (Delay and Ashiok), and more powerful processors (nullifier especially). It's possible that Thought-Knot Seer is enough to make that archetype viable (since it's a pretty likely turn 2-3 speed bump for aggro, when combined with discard and delay).
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
There's lots of good eldrazi in the new set, but not every one of them is going to fit in Bx or BCx builds. There's quite a few that seem like they are there purely to fuel the upcoming Shadows over Innistrad block.
Also, just to collectively reiterate some stuff talked about earlier in the thread: When people were getting excited over Reality smasher, thought knot seer, etc, what cards in the original Bx build are these taking the place of? It seems like endless one is still a prime card that fills a necessary role as a flexible early drop, yet that is the one most folks seem to think is getting the axe to make room for these other two cards.
Thought Knot seer seems to be at earliest a Turn 2 play and reality smasher at earliest a Turn 3 play. However, wouldn't we want to play Blight Herder on turn 3? It seems like part of the power for the deck is having the mana to play things mid game that are obscenely huge like Oblivion Sower and Ulamog, the ceaseless hunger. If we dilute too much we'd start losing our advantage, so it seems like we'd more so run things like Thought Knot Seer as a replacement to our discard suite that also happens to be a body. Reality smasher looks way too much like a sideboard tech.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!