Now figuring out what decks Ancestral Vision will help the most in Modern is the tough part.
Sword of the Meek was never really oppressive ever in it existence. It was a cog in a toolbox Control deck that got merged with Dark Depths/Vampire Hexmage. The 2nd part was oppressive. The Sword part was just really a backup plan that gives a deck mid and late game. Also someone here brought up that there are new answers like Abrupt Decay and Kologhan's Command that destroy the Thopter Foundry. I think that Ancestral Vision could possibly help a deck like Grixis Control. I don't know if this is good or not...
You are part right. SotM foundry was a deck, and Dark depths was a deck, separate. Once they were combined they became a force. But both decks did well on there own prior to the mash up. Back when SotM and foundry were big, we had Grips and natures claim. All cards die to something else. Just because we have a few more ways to deal with the combo, does not mean its safe to come off. I personally am on the fence about the combo. I personally dont think the format needs another combo, no matter which archetype it help.
Yes, I actually played the Mono Blue Thopter Sword deck. Although it was considered by some as the strongest overall deck of the time, it was far from oppressive, as LordSeth can show stats that show that other decks like Hypergenesis and Boom/Bust Zoo, among others also did very well at the time.
While I realize that there are always going to be answers, Abrupt Decay and Kologhan's Command are so versatile that they will always see maindeck play. I can't see anything that would make Kologhan's Command unplayable if you're in those colors. Do you play artifacts? Do you mind if your opponent buys a creature from their graveyard back to their hand? Do you mind discarding a card? Do you mind your creature or you taking 2 damage? One of those will apply to most decks in the format and I don't even have to mention Abrupt Decay, which will always be a mainstay in this format.
Mono Blue Thopter Sword was a strong deck. Thopter Depths was a dominant deck and considered oppressive by many. If Thopter Sword is legal in this format, you still have to put both of the cards together and all it gets you is a 1/1 flier and 1 life per 1 mana if it is not disrupted. Exarch Twin is "easily disrupted." Maybe Goryo's Vengeance Griselbrand is "easily disrupted" as well. But both of those have a stronger upside than 1 colorless mana per 1/1 flier and 1 life.
Bring up a couple other decks that were playable along side thopter decks in extended, one of which banned out of Modern and the other being T2 maybe T3 depending on the time frames you are talking, is not helping your argument, at least to me.
Easily disrupted, to me is a non argument. As I said before, all cards have answers. With that logic we dont need a ban list at all. I mean decay and Kologhans command answer skullclamp too.. should we unban that? Obviously not. There has to be a better reasoning other then we have answers for [insert card here] before it can come off the list.
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but then I think using other formats to justify somethimg in Modern is fallacious.
I usually agree with this thinking too, let Modern be its own format. But when you look at the history of the game and see what certain archetypes do to metas, I think it is important to learn from history. I dont want to see the meta go from the 6-10 decks that can be played competitively now, to 3-5 because we now have a T1 control deck and one of those decks being said control deck. I dont want a battle of either play [said deck] or deck(s) that can match up against said deck.
People are complaining about percentages of deck types to make the format 'healthy'. Those people are looking at the format in a very narrow view. Wotc has already come out and told us what they want for the format (a couple of decks of each archetype viable in the format). Anyone that says they want something different is just wishing for a format other then the visions of Wotc.
The format is in a good place. Meta game your local area and you should be able to do fine. You can go in with one deck and think you are going to win without knowing the meta of where ever you are playing. Hint, all areas are slightly different and very few mirror the meta Kt shows in his numbers.
Also the argument about 'what is control' is really annoying. People cant get past what control was 5 years ago or what control looks like in other formats. MOdern has its control decks, they just are not conventional control. I think this is what angers some. If you want to play, you have to adjust.
The thing is, there aren't even a couple of viable Control decks in Modern. Scapeshift is the only one (Grixis "Control" is the very definition of Aggro-Control and Twin is Tempo-Combo). This is why some unbans to help Control should happen. Why should Control players get only a single tier 2 deck while everyone else gets at least 3 tier 1 and 2 decks? It just doesn't make sense and is unfair to Control players.
Well, if you're going to give "control" such a narrow definition, then it's no surprise there aren't that many "control" decks around. You guys keep complaining that there aren't viable control decks, and then when somebody points one out, you come up with some nitpicky reason why it's "not a control deck". You're asking for a very specific archetype to exist.
All I want is multiple tier 1 and 2 interactive decks that gain a significant advantage the later the game goes. I don't care if it plays countermagic. I don't care if it is blue. I just want more decks that actually want the game to go long. That is not a narrow definition. That is a very wide definition. But that is also not what Grixis "Control" and Twin are. Even in the late-game, Twin and Grixis are still close to the same as Jund or Junk, which are clearly Midrange decks, so they obviously aren't trying to go long any more than Midrange decks are. Ancestral Vision, Sword of the Meek, and Jace (I am not advocating unbanning Jace, just thought I should mention him) are the kinds of cards that Control decks need to give an actual incentive to go long, which is why they should be unbanned.
I could flip it around and say "there aren't any good aggro decks in Modern. Affinity and Burn are really aggro-combo decks, Merfolk is an aggro-tempo deck, etc, etc, why should Aggro players get only a single tier 3 deck (white weenie) and everyone else gets so many good options. It just doesn't make sense and is unfair to Aggro players!!"
No, you still can't make that argument. Even if you consider Affinity to be a Combo deck and Merfolk a Tempo deck, there is no way that Burn is a combo deck (it has no specific combos, no library manipulation, no card-draw, no tutoring, and no one card that instantly wins it the game).
There's no reason players who enjoy blue decks with counters and Snapcaster Mage can't thoroughly enjoy the format right now. Like, really? I used to play UWR control, yeah I kind of wish it were still as viable, but then again Grixis is just as enjoyable of a deck to play regardless of what label you are going to give it.
What about the people who want to play an interactive deck that is trying to go long instead of one that wants to land an early delve threat? What do they do?
Just play Grixis Control anyway? I don't get it. What is it about playing an early delve creature that is so horrible for you people? Legacy control decks can land a t3 Batterskull, but Modern control decks can't do the same?
Look, I understand your frustration about not being able to play the exact archetype you want. But at some point you have to have the ability to just adapt to the metagame and find something else to enjoy. There are so many competitive decks in modern right now, surely there is one of them you will like to play?
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Current Modern decks BGW Junk / URB Grixis Shadow / RGB Lantern Control / WUBCBant Eldrazi
Current Legacy decks BUG Shardless BUG / UWR Predict Miracles / RUG Canadian Thresh / WRBG 4c Loam UB Reanimator
Burn is very can be very easily considered a combo deck. It's combo is resolving 7 spells. If it does that it wins. Burn and infect both lie on the aggro combo spectrum with infect being closer to combo and burn being closer to aggro with both having elements of combo and aggro.
I don't really care about this silly archetype discussion but I would like a more controlling deck to be legal in the format. Even something like UB Tezz would be really cool. For that reason it think that Sword of the Meek would be a great unban. It has a difficult time slowing down aggro decks because it can't reasonable come online before turn 3 and even on turn three it only gains one life and makes one token. It might make Zoo and burn a little worse but it is way to slow to beat affinity and midrange decks like Jund and Jund might have to start play additional copies of Malestrom Pulse. I can't see it being a problem at all. It seems like a cool combo that can make a tier 3 deck (that is really sweet might I add) become tier 2.
It's just that draw-go has been a staple archetype of Magic for a long time. In Legacy, we have Miracles. There's always some Standard iteration of it, right now there's Esper Dragons or UB Control. It's what people think control is if you ask them what control is. People will always want to play it, and it's odd that this is the only format that it doesn't exist in. It sucks because the deck is close to being good, so people are always tempted into playing it.
People are complaining about percentages of deck types to make the format 'healthy'. Those people are looking at the format in a very narrow view. Wotc has already come out and told us what they want for the format (a couple of decks of each archetype viable in the format). Anyone that says they want something different is just wishing for a format other then the visions of Wotc.
The format is in a good place. Meta game your local area and you should be able to do fine. You can go in with one deck and think you are going to win without knowing the meta of where ever you are playing. Hint, all areas are slightly different and very few mirror the meta Kt shows in his numbers.
Also the argument about 'what is control' is really annoying. People cant get past what control was 5 years ago or what control looks like in other formats. MOdern has its control decks, they just are not conventional control. I think this is what angers some. If you want to play, you have to adjust.
The thing is, there aren't even a couple of viable Control decks in Modern. Scapeshift is the only one (Grixis "Control" is the very definition of Aggro-Control and Twin is Tempo-Combo). This is why some unbans to help Control should happen. Why should Control players get only a single tier 2 deck while everyone else gets at least 3 tier 1 and 2 decks? It just doesn't make sense and is unfair to Control players.
Well, if you're going to give "control" such a narrow definition, then it's no surprise there aren't that many "control" decks around. You guys keep complaining that there aren't viable control decks, and then when somebody points one out, you come up with some nitpicky reason why it's "not a control deck". You're asking for a very specific archetype to exist.
All I want is multiple tier 1 and 2 interactive decks that gain a significant advantage the later the game goes. I don't care if it plays countermagic. I don't care if it is blue. I just want more decks that actually want the game to go long. That is not a narrow definition. That is a very wide definition. But that is also not what Grixis "Control" and Twin are. Even in the late-game, Twin and Grixis are still close to the same as Jund or Junk, which are clearly Midrange decks, so they obviously aren't trying to go long any more than Midrange decks are. Ancestral Vision, Sword of the Meek, and Jace (I am not advocating unbanning Jace, just thought I should mention him) are the kinds of cards that Control decks need to give an actual incentive to go long, which is why they should be unbanned.
I could flip it around and say "there aren't any good aggro decks in Modern. Affinity and Burn are really aggro-combo decks, Merfolk is an aggro-tempo deck, etc, etc, why should Aggro players get only a single tier 3 deck (white weenie) and everyone else gets so many good options. It just doesn't make sense and is unfair to Aggro players!!"
No, you still can't make that argument. Even if you consider Affinity to be a Combo deck and Merfolk a Tempo deck, there is no way that Burn is a combo deck (it has no specific combos, no library manipulation, no card-draw, no tutoring, and no one card that instantly wins it the game).
There's no reason players who enjoy blue decks with counters and Snapcaster Mage can't thoroughly enjoy the format right now. Like, really? I used to play UWR control, yeah I kind of wish it were still as viable, but then again Grixis is just as enjoyable of a deck to play regardless of what label you are going to give it.
What about the people who want to play an interactive deck that is trying to go long instead of one that wants to land an early delve threat? What do they do?
Just play Grixis Control anyway? I don't get it. What is it about playing an early delve creature that is so horrible for you people? Legacy control decks can land a t3 Batterskull, but Modern control decks can't do the same?
The difference is this. When the game goes long in Legacy for something like Miracles, it gets a huge advantage. Jace and top activations get out of hand. It eventually gets a Counterbalance lock. It can have a 1 mana wrath at the ready just in case there are any problems. THe longer the game goes, the more angels it can get off of Entreat the Angels and the easier it is to assemble countermagic to resolve one. Grixis Control doesn't have that. It doesn't get that much better in the late-game than Jund, Junk, or Abzan Company does. That isn't what people who want to make the game go long and then win from a very strong position in the late-game are looking for.
Look, I understand your frustration about not being able to play the exact archetype you want. But at some point you have to have the ability to just adapt to the metagame and find something else to enjoy. There are so many competitive decks in modern right now, surely there is one of them you will like to play?
All of the decks that I want to play are tier 3 or worse (WUR Delver, WUR Midrange, WUR Control, Esper Mentor, Esper Control, UW Control, Esper Gifts, Dega Control...), so not really. I might try Scapeshift, but having so many ramp spells that don't affect the board on their own isn't really my thing.
When WUR Control became tier 1 in Modern, it didn't make any decks unplayable that were playable before. Esper Dragons was the best deck in Standard for a month this year and that Standard was still one of the most diverse in the past several years. UB Control being tier 1 in KTK/FRF Standard didn't stop anything from being playable either. It seems to me like Control decks don't decrease diversity unless if they are oppressive.
1) RWU was never a true control deck. matter of fact many thought of it as a burn deck with control elements.
2) How many decks were viable prior and after? Were they the same decks?
3) The Standard example you bring up varies from store to store. In my neck of the woods we have 40 plus people on any given Friday night for Standard. The format went from 4-7 viable decks to 2 decks (UB dragons, mono red burn) until Origins came out. UB dragons killed the diversity of Standard.
When WUR Control became tier 1 in Modern, it didn't make any decks unplayable that were playable before. Esper Dragons was the best deck in Standard for a month this year and that Standard was still one of the most diverse in the past several years. UB Control being tier 1 in KTK/FRF Standard didn't stop anything from being playable either. It seems to me like Control decks don't decrease diversity unless if they are oppressive.
1) RWU was never a true control deck. matter of fact many thought of it as a burn deck with control elements.
Using burn spells as your finisher on like turn 10 isn't a Burn deck. How was it not a Control deck? It was designed to go late. It was playing Sphinx's Revelations and a playset of Cryptic Commands, which gave it an overwhelming advantage in the late-game. Sometimes it played planeswalkers to gain more value as the game went later. That sounds a lot more like Control than like Burn, given that Burn is an all-in aggressive deck that usually wins on turn 4. Just because your deck has 11 burn spells doesn't make it Burn, just like having 11 counterspells and removal spells doesn't automatically make something Control, having 11 creatures doesn't make it Zoo, and having 11 artifacts doesn't make something Affinity. WUR Control didn't even start aiming Burn spells at the face in most matchups until the late-game.
2) How many decks were viable prior and after? Were they the same decks?
The only decks that really come to mind as being eliminated by Dragons of Tarkir coming out were RW Aggro, Jeskai Tempo, and Jeskai Tokens, while Esper Dragons, RG Dragons, Ojutai Bant, and Abzan Megamorph all became viable.
3) The Standard example you bring up varies from store to store. In my neck of the woods we have 40 plus people on any given Friday night for Standard. The format went from 4-7 viable decks to 2 decks (UB dragons, mono red burn) until Origins came out. UB dragons killed the diversity of Standard.
Bocephus, we both live in the same area, and that has not been my experience. Maybe it is different for FNM's, which I don't go to, but the metagame has not been only 2 decks. And even if it was, Wizards should base their decisions on the overall metagame, not on a shop-to-shop basis.
Burn is very can be very easily considered a combo deck. It's combo is resolving 7 spells. If it does that it wins. Burn and infect both lie on the aggro combo spectrum with infect being closer to combo and burn being closer to aggro with both having elements of combo and aggro.
That is just silly. Merfolk wins if it resolves 7 creatures that stay in play. So does Zoo. So does Goblins. So does Stompy. So does basically every aggro deck ever. Saying that winning by resolving 7 spells makes a deck Combo is ridiculous. If it is not a combo between specific cards and works with any cards in the deck, then how is it a combo instead of just how Magic naturally works?
How the heck does Ancestral Vision benefit Scapeshift most of all? It seems downright awful in that deck.
I think it would benefit Scapeshift the most out of every deck in the format.
Why, when Scapeshift never played it in Extended?
Its the only fully-reactive deck in the format and it wants to keep control of the game until it can win with its combo (at least pre-board), so it benefits the most from what AV has to offer.
It isn't about keeping control of the game, it's about surviving. Control is about actual control, not stalling, which is what Scapeshift does.
Scapeshift is the only deck in the format right now that both wants to win in the late game, and wants to do it in one critical turn that the digging provided by an AV suspended early-game can help with.
The problem is that by then, Ancestral Vision doesn't do that much. Scapeshift is about getting those lands into play quickly and then firing off that Scapeshift. Card advantage really isn't important at that point; Scapeshift isn't trying to out-attrition the opponent, just hold them off enough to cast that Scapeshift and have a counterspell to protect it if necessary. Now, if you're dealing with potential counterspells like from Twin, Ancestral Vision becomes better because it lets you push through that Scapeshift, but that makes it more of a sideboard card. Against a ton of decks it's basically a card that comes too late to be of much use even if you do suspend it right away.
LordSeth, the problem with your reasoning here is that you're assuming that I'm saying it would be a good card (possibly even an auto-include) for Scapeshift. I'm not. I am saying that I think that it benefits Scapeshift "more than any other deck in the format", which is where the distinction lies.
Twin wants to either tempo or combo the opponent out no later than turn 6, meaning they want the game either locked up and winning in the next two turns, or the opponent outright dead from infinite damage. Twin can't afford to play AV as anything other than a sideboard card for matches where its forced into playing a grindy game like against BGx. Against those BGx decks, their removal, discard and threat packages are better than Twin's, so Twin has to grind out games, which AV helps with. But against anything else? AV is the opposite of what Twin wants to be doing. Therefor, between its increased speed and its aversion to grinding out incremental advantages, Twin doesn't benefit very much from AV (though it would help Twin shore up its poor BGx MU).
Grixis "Control". I really think Grixis Midrange would be a more appropriate name, but that is a seppartae issue from what I'm talking about here. It would benefit from AV entering the format, but the question lies in whether it benefits more than Scapeshift. I don't think so. Grixis Control wants to grind out games using a combination of early board presence provided by delve beaters paired with the overwhelming advantage provided by KCommand, Snapcaster, Bolt and Cryptic. It gains nothing by allowing the game to run late.
In fact, Tron and Scapeshift actually gain more than it does for allowing the game to run late. Tron gets progressively more consistent and better able to function the later the game goes. The same can be said of any deck, of course, but Tron's effects are so far beyond what most of the format is doing in terms of powerlevel that letting it get to that point is almost always a death sentence, unless you have a method of killing it on the spot like Twin does.
Scapeshift doesn't gain that much either, but it does have a few things going for it that neither Twin nor Grixis have. First, it can't win before turn 7 most of the time. No matter what else happens, what the opponent is doing or anything else, it can't ever win before turn 7 (without a ramp spell, but a lot of lists these days have been cutting some of those to load up on more early interaction, so I think its a reasonable statement). This is important for using AV because it means that, even in its absolute best case scenario of comboing on turn 6, it will always have a few turns to cast AV without it becoming a dead card for the rest of the game. If Twin gets an opening to slam the combo on turn 4 and it already suspended AV, that AV is effectively a dead card that contributed nothing to the victory. That scenario will happen a lot less to Scapeshift, because it can cast AV comfortably on turn 3 (or even turns 5-6, since it might need a Scapeshift or land and its helpful to have a plan B to dig up that combo piece) and still be getting quite valueble use out of it.
Second, Scapeshift lists generally run a semi-transformational sideboard, allowing them to beat combo hate such as Slaughter Games, with the other half of their sideboard allowing them to become harder to interact with via cards like Boseiju. They generally choose which ever beaters are best suited for the matchup (Obsinate Baloth against Burn and BGx, Inferno Titian against Company decks, etc) and side out whatever interaction is worst (small creature removal against Junk for example). AV slots right into that, either digging up more threats, or getting them ahead on cards to keep counters in hand while spending minimal mana.
LordSeth, the problem with your reasoning here is that you're assuming that I'm saying it would be a good card (possibly even an auto-include) for Scapeshift. I'm not. I am saying that I think that it benefits Scapeshift "more than any other deck in the format", which is where the distinction lies.
Except there are decks where Ancestral Vision would basically be an auto include, such as Faeries. It's nonsensical to somehow claim that Scapeshift, where I think it wouldn't even be played, somehow gets the best out of it. We can certain see that while Ancestral Vision has been a staple in Faeries in every format it's been legal, Scapeshift has never played Ancestral Vision. And one can easily point to struggling control decks that could get real usage out of Ancestral Vision, such as UWR Control or Esper Control, certainly far more than Scapeshift would. Granted, this is all ignoring the fact it's honestly just pretty bad in Scapeshift, but even if it was okay, Scapeshift sure isn't getting the most use out of it.
Twin wants to either tempo or combo the opponent out no later than turn 6, meaning they want the game either locked up and winning in the next two turns, or the opponent outright dead from infinite damage. Twin can't afford to play AV as anything other than a sideboard card for matches where its forced into playing a grindy game like against BGx. Against those BGx decks, their removal, discard and threat packages are better than Twin's, so Twin has to grind out games, which AV helps with. But against anything else? AV is the opposite of what Twin wants to be doing. Therefor, between its increased speed and its aversion to grinding out incremental advantages, Twin doesn't benefit very much from AV (though it would help Twin shore up its poor BGx MU).
While I do have my doubts that it would benefit Twin, I think it would definitely benefit Twin more than it would benefit Scapeshift. Twin is more likely to be the one that has to go long and play grindy than Scapeshift (which basically just assembles 8 lands then tries to cast Scapeshift for the win). Even if it's not good in Twin, I feel fairly confident it's better there than in Scapeshift. Especially because card advantage tends to be more important for Twin than in Scapeshift.
Grixis "Control". I really think Grixis Midrange would be a more appropriate name, but that is a seppartae issue from what I'm talking about here. It would benefit from AV entering the format, but the question lies in whether it benefits more than Scapeshift. I don't think so. Grixis Control wants to grind out games using a combination of early board presence provided by delve beaters paired with the overwhelming advantage provided by KCommand, Snapcaster, Bolt and Cryptic. It gains nothing by allowing the game to run late.
I agree that it is midrange. However, to me part of the problem is that Ancestral Vision does not do what it really wants to be doing with its spells: Filling up its graveyard. You suspend it and it only goes into the graveyard after 4 turns. Far less efficient than all of the 1-mana cantrips that immediately fill it up like Serum Visions or Thought Scour.
Trying to claim Scapeshift gets the best boost from Ancestral Vision by comparing it to other decks that likely wouldn't play it (Twin is most likely of the three you mention) seems like saying that if unbanned, Jace gives Merfolk the biggest boost because that card sure isn't going into Delver!
In fact, Tron and Scapeshift actually gain more than it does for allowing the game to run late. Tron gets progressively more consistent and better able to function the later the game goes. The same can be said of any deck, of course, but Tron's effects are so far beyond what most of the format is doing in terms of powerlevel that letting it get to that point is almost always a death sentence, unless you have a method of killing it on the spot like Twin does.
Scapeshift doesn't gain that much either, but it does have a few things going for it that neither Twin nor Grixis have. First, it can't win before turn 7 most of the time. No matter what else happens, what the opponent is doing or anything else, it can't ever win before turn 7 (without a ramp spell, but a lot of lists these days have been cutting some of those to load up on more early interaction, so I think its a reasonable statement).
Saying "it can't win before turn 7 without a ramp spell" is much like saying that Twin can't win before turn 5 without a Splinter Twin. The deck plays 8-10 ramp spells (4x Sakura-Tribe Elder 4x Search for Tomorrow guaranteed and sometimes a Farseek or two), so it's extremely likely to draw one and fairly likely to draw a second. You keep pounding on this "it can't win before turn 7" but in all honesty the deck usually is capable of winning on turn 5. In fact, it can actually win on turn 4, though that requires a turn 1 Search for Tomorrow and then two turn 2 Search for Tomorrows. Still, technically possible.
This is important for using AV because it means that, even in its absolute best case scenario of comboing on turn 6,
Best case scenario, as established, is turn 4. However, in terms of things likely to happen, turn 5 is reasonably common, so I'm not sure why you're going on about the "best case scenario" is comboing turn 6. One might as well say that the "best case scenario" for GR Tron is to assemble Tron on turn 4.
it will always have a few turns to cast AV without it becoming a dead card for the rest of the game. If Twin gets an opening to slam the combo on turn 4 and it already suspended AV, that AV is effectively a dead card that contributed nothing to the victory.
True, but it also means that Twin has no complaints about the Ancestral Vision. Sure, it didn't do anything, but it didn't need to do anything because they won.
One might claim this is the same for Scapeshift, but Scapeshift is far more reliant on casting its combo. Ancestral Vision actually doesn't do that much to help it do that outside of digging for Scapeshift (and you can do as much digging with other cards that do not take 4 turns to pay off).
That scenario will happen a lot less to Scapeshift, because it can cast AV comfortably on turn 3 (or even turns 5-6, since it might need a Scapeshift or land and its helpful to have a plan B to dig up that combo piece) and still be getting quite valueble use out of it.
Digging is good, but as it's about getting a particular card (Scapeshift so you can combo, a counterspell to protect Scapeshift, or another land), Anticipate, is probably better because of it being far more versatile in terms of when it can be cast. And Anticipate usually doesn't even see play in the deck...
Second, Scapeshift lists generally run a semi-transformational sideboard, allowing them to beat combo hate such as Slaughter Games, with the other half of their sideboard allowing them to become harder to interact with via cards like Boseiju. They generally choose which ever beaters are best suited for the matchup (Obsinate Baloth against Burn and BGx, Inferno Titian against Company decks, etc) and side out whatever interaction is worst (small creature removal against Junk for example). AV slots right into that, either digging up more threats, or getting them ahead on cards to keep counters in hand while spending minimal mana.
Scapeshift's semi-transformational sideboard isn't really that amazing at improving itself. Sure, it makes it so Slaughter Games isn't an auto-loss, but boy oh boy does it still struggle a lot through that card. But as for the Ancestral Vision, again all of that can be achieved with card filtering.
Legacy control decks can land a t3 Batterskull, but Modern control decks can't do the same?
Just want to point out that the deck you're refering to, stoneblade is actually aggro-control, or midrange, just like most people consider grixis control
Another thing to take into consideration is that one of the "true" draw-go control deck of modern, Esper control doesn't actually need more card advantage, but more ways to handle the early game (no bolt), and I think AV would help more UWR than Esper (though AV could replace Think twice in this deck, I don't really know)
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Currently Playing:
Modern Grixis Shadow, Storm Legacy: Grixis Delver, Sneak and Show Duel Commander:Kess High Tide Vintage Big blue(MTGO)
Ayiluss I was not trying to argue that Mystic should be unbanned. I was just trying to say that if Legacy decks can get Batterskull on turn 3 and still be considered control decks then how come when Grixis Control lands a turn 3 Tasigur it's suddenly "not a control deck".
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Current Modern decks BGW Junk / URB Grixis Shadow / RGB Lantern Control / WUBCBant Eldrazi
Current Legacy decks BUG Shardless BUG / UWR Predict Miracles / RUG Canadian Thresh / WRBG 4c Loam UB Reanimator
Legacy control decks can land a t3 Batterskull, but Modern control decks can't do the same?
Just want to point out that the deck you're refering to, stoneblade is actually aggro-control, or midrange, just like most people consider grixis control
Another thing to take into consideration is that one of the "true" draw-go control deck of modern, Esper control doesn't actually need more card advantage, but more ways to handle the early game (no bolt), and I think AV would help more UWR than Esper (though AV could replace Think twice in this deck, I don't really know)
I really don't consider aggro-control and midrange to be the same thing at all.
anyway, I don't expect stoneforge to ever be unbanned but with all the kolghan's commands running around and tons of combo decks a T3 batterskull doesn't seem like a game ender really.
I would turn 3 batterskull in Junk (first and foremost), soul sisters, esper of all varieties, gifts, hatebears, coco of all varieties, zoo, twin, UWR of all varieties, affinity...
Id run it in sideboards as a back up plan to my combo in ad nauseum, probably a few more sideboard plans too.
I would turn 3 batterskull in Junk (first and foremost), soul sisters, esper of all varieties, gifts, hatebears, coco of all varieties, zoo, twin, UWR of all varieties, affinity...
Id run it in sideboards as a back up plan to my combo in ad nauseum, probably a few more sideboard plans too.
But K-command decks exist, so its probably fine.
Yeah it would definitely be strong and format defining but considering every deck is either:
A) aiming to kill you before that matters
or
B) has removal before you can tap the stoneforge
I am not completely convinced that it is too strong.
Also definitely not saying to unban stoneforge just that it isn't the most ridiculous idea to be debating.
BGR are the better colors in modern. Blue is ok but mainly on the back of a select few cards (snap, cryptic, visions, remand). White is pretty horrible and is mostly just a small splash color or for SB options.
With that in mind, I wouldn't mind them unbanning cards to help white out and maybe blue by a bit. Stoneforge and Ancestral are fine. But honestly a few reprints would go a lot further in helping the situation (Mom would be pretty cool to have in the format but I don't think it is needed, something like Rishadan Port would help out tribal and aether vial strategies like merfolk, goblins and d&t).
BGR are the better colors in modern. Blue is ok but mainly on the back of a select few cards (snap, cryptic, visions, remand). White is pretty horrible and is mostly just a small splash color or for SB options.
With that in mind, I wouldn't mind them unbanning cards to help white out and maybe blue by a bit. Stoneforge and Ancestral are fine. But honestly a few reprints would go a lot further in helping the situation (Mom would be pretty cool to have in the format but I don't think it is needed, something like Rishadan Port would help out tribal and aether vial strategies like merfolk, goblins and d&t).
It's really difficult to just say X as a colour is bad in the format. There are definitely decks for each colour and it's difficult to say what buffing certain colours rather than decks or archetypes would do to the format. Maybe you give white a slew of cards and suddenly everyone's playing white variants of their decks (Abzan over Jund, for instance). If you had come in here like three months ago, Abzan was more played than Jund and Abzan CoCo was picking up steam, and you really wouldn't be saying that.
I don't really know how blue is bad, three of the top tier decks are blue (Twin, Grixis Control, and Merfolk). Blue seems perfectly fine to me in the format. Just because it's not deep, doesn't mean the colour is bad.
Rishidan Port doesn't seem like a safe unban. I could see Burn playing it, and it's one of the top decks, and that could be a problem.
But honestly a few reprints would go a lot further in helping the situation (Mom would be pretty cool to have in the format but I don't think it is needed, something like Rishadan Port would help out tribal and aether vial strategies like merfolk, goblins and d&t).
Rishidan Port doesn't seem like a safe unban. I could see Burn playing it, and it's one of the top decks, and that could be a problem.
Burn wouldn't play Rishadan Port, because Burn is too deep in red. Still, Port is bonkers, and has no business being in Modern. The manabases in Modern are so greedy that Port would become the go-to card for cutting a player off a color. I'd almost rather see an Armageddon reprint, because despite how unfun that card is, at least it doesn't become relevant until turn four.
I think Mother of Runes would be a much better reprint. It's a great way of combating the efficient removal in the format.
Playing millions of cards every turn... Slowly and systematically obliterating any chance my opponent has of winning... Clicking the multitude of locking mechanisms into place... Not even trying to win myself until turn 10+ once I have nigh absolute control... Watching my opponent desperately trying to navigate the labyrinthine prison that I've constructed... Seeing the light of hope fade and ultimately extinguished in an excruciatingly slow manner... THAT'S fun Magic.
We have 2-3 users that are dramatically making this thread incomprehensible and non-productive for anyone else to possibly join in the discussion. This needs to change.
Every time I see [ktkenshinx] post in here, I get the impression of a stern dad walking in on a bunch of kids trying to do something dumb and just shaking his head in disappointment.
Near Mint: The same as Slightly Played, but we threw some Altoids in the box we stored it in to cover up the scent of dead mice. Slightly Played: The base condition for all MTG cards. This card looks OK, but there’s one minor annoying ding in it that will always irritate and distract you whenever you draw it. Moderately Played: This card looks like it survived the Tet Offensive tucked inside the waistband of GI underwear. It may smell like it, too. Heavily Played: This card looks like the remains of Mohammed Atta’s passport after 9/11. It may be playable if you double-sleeve it to stop the chunks from falling out. The condition formerly known as "Washing Machine Grade" Damaged: This card is the unfortunate victim of a Mirrorweave/March of the Machines/Chaos Confetti/Mindslaver combo.
[M]aking counterfeit cards is the absolute height of dishonesty. Ask yourself this question: Since most people...are totally cool with the use of proxies...what purpose do [high] quality counterfeit cards serve?
Burn is very can be very easily considered a combo deck. It's combo is resolving 7 spells. If it does that it wins. Burn and infect both lie on the aggro combo spectrum with infect being closer to combo and burn being closer to aggro with both having elements of combo and aggro.
That is just silly. Merfolk wins if it resolves 7 creatures that stay in play. So does Zoo. So does Goblins. So does Stompy. So does basically every aggro deck ever. Saying that winning by resolving 7 spells makes a deck Combo is ridiculous. If it is not a combo between specific cards and works with any cards in the deck, then how is it a combo instead of just how Magic naturally works?
This is a false analogy. Burn, unlike every other deck you listed, is very difficult to interact with; which is, coincidentally another characteristic of combo. Aggro decks are different from good combo decks in that they force the opponent to interact but in a much broader(read fairer)context.
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Modern GB Rock U Flooding Merfolk RUG Delver Midrange WU Monks UW Tempo Geist GW Bogle GW Liege UR Tron B Vampires
Affinity Legacy
Fish
Goblins
Burn
Reanimator
Dredge
Affinity EDH W Akroma GBW Ghave BRU Thrax GR Ruric I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
but blue even has the best card in modern (Snapcaster Mage)
That's a funny way to say Lightning Bolt.
which is, coincidentally another characteristic of combo.
You know what else is a characteristic of combo? Using a "combination" of spells with unintended effects to kill someone. Deceiver Exarch + Splinter Twin is a combo. Goblin Guide->Lightning Bolt->Lava Spike is not, as all those cards are doing what they were intended to do: reduce someone's life total to 0. It plays cheap creatures and burn spells to finish off an opponent, which is the hallmark of red based aggro decks. Calling Burn combo is absurd.
Also, why are we even discussing Rishadan Port? It doesn't need an unban to be in Modern, it needs a reprint (which means that it's not for this thread, but the reprint thread).
BGR are the better colors in modern. Blue is ok but mainly on the back of a select few cards (snap, cryptic, visions, remand). White is pretty horrible and is mostly just a small splash color or for SB options.
With that in mind, I wouldn't mind them unbanning cards to help white out and maybe blue by a bit. Stoneforge and Ancestral are fine. But honestly a few reprints would go a lot further in helping the situation (Mom would be pretty cool to have in the format but I don't think it is needed, something like Rishadan Port would help out tribal and aether vial strategies like merfolk, goblins and d&t).
It's really difficult to just say X as a colour is bad in the format. There are definitely decks for each colour and it's difficult to say what buffing certain colours rather than decks or archetypes would do to the format. Maybe you give white a slew of cards and suddenly everyone's playing white variants of their decks (Abzan over Jund, for instance). If you had come in here like three months ago, Abzan was more played than Jund and Abzan CoCo was picking up steam, and you really wouldn't be saying that.
I don't really know how blue is bad, three of the top tier decks are blue (Twin, Grixis Control, and Merfolk). Blue seems perfectly fine to me in the format. Just because it's not deep, doesn't mean the colour is bad.
Rishidan Port doesn't seem like a safe unban. I could see Burn playing it, and it's one of the top decks, and that could be a problem.
Rishadan port isn't banned. Also, white really is bad in Modern nowadays. There aren't any tier 1 or 2 base white decks, as it isn't the main color of Junk, Abzan Company, or Zoo.
Burn is very can be very easily considered a combo deck. It's combo is resolving 7 spells. If it does that it wins. Burn and infect both lie on the aggro combo spectrum with infect being closer to combo and burn being closer to aggro with both having elements of combo and aggro.
That is just silly. Merfolk wins if it resolves 7 creatures that stay in play. So does Zoo. So does Goblins. So does Stompy. So does basically every aggro deck ever. Saying that winning by resolving 7 spells makes a deck Combo is ridiculous. If it is not a combo between specific cards and works with any cards in the deck, then how is it a combo instead of just how Magic naturally works?
This is a false analogy. Burn, unlike every other deck you listed, is very difficult to interact with; which is, coincidentally another characteristic of combo. Aggro decks are different from good combo decks in that they force the opponent to interact but in a much broader(read fairer)context.
Being hard to interact with isn't a characteristic of combo. Control is also hard to interact with (most of it is them interacting with you). So is Prison. And many Combo decks like Twin are easy to interact with.
BGR are the better colors in modern. Blue is ok but mainly on the back of a select few cards (snap, cryptic, visions, remand). White is pretty horrible and is mostly just a small splash color or for SB options.
With that in mind, I wouldn't mind them unbanning cards to help white out and maybe blue by a bit. Stoneforge and Ancestral are fine. But honestly a few reprints would go a lot further in helping the situation (Mom would be pretty cool to have in the format but I don't think it is needed, something like Rishadan Port would help out tribal and aether vial strategies like merfolk, goblins and d&t).
It's really difficult to just say X as a colour is bad in the format. There are definitely decks for each colour and it's difficult to say what buffing certain colours rather than decks or archetypes would do to the format. Maybe you give white a slew of cards and suddenly everyone's playing white variants of their decks (Abzan over Jund, for instance). If you had come in here like three months ago, Abzan was more played than Jund and Abzan CoCo was picking up steam, and you really wouldn't be saying that.
I don't really know how blue is bad, three of the top tier decks are blue (Twin, Grixis Control, and Merfolk). Blue seems perfectly fine to me in the format. Just because it's not deep, doesn't mean the colour is bad.
Rishidan Port doesn't seem like a safe unban. I could see Burn playing it, and it's one of the top decks, and that could be a problem.
Rishadan port isn't banned. Also, white really is bad in Modern nowadays. There aren't any tier 1 or 2 base white decks, as it isn't the main color of Junk, Abzan Company, or Zoo.
Yeah, it's pretty tough to argue against white being the weakest color, at this point. I mean, if you look at the Tier 1 section of this forum, 3 decks are blue based (makes those folks who are constantly saying blue gets shafted seem pretty silly) 1 black based deck (though green is almost as present), 1 red based deck, 1 colorless deck. For green you also have several tier 2 decks. But for white, none. But unbanning something like Stoneforge would not really help this, it would help Junk and blue decks more than base white decks.
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Bring up a couple other decks that were playable along side thopter decks in extended, one of which banned out of Modern and the other being T2 maybe T3 depending on the time frames you are talking, is not helping your argument, at least to me.
Easily disrupted, to me is a non argument. As I said before, all cards have answers. With that logic we dont need a ban list at all. I mean decay and Kologhans command answer skullclamp too.. should we unban that? Obviously not. There has to be a better reasoning other then we have answers for [insert card here] before it can come off the list.
I usually agree with this thinking too, let Modern be its own format. But when you look at the history of the game and see what certain archetypes do to metas, I think it is important to learn from history. I dont want to see the meta go from the 6-10 decks that can be played competitively now, to 3-5 because we now have a T1 control deck and one of those decks being said control deck. I dont want a battle of either play [said deck] or deck(s) that can match up against said deck.
Just play Grixis Control anyway? I don't get it. What is it about playing an early delve creature that is so horrible for you people? Legacy control decks can land a t3 Batterskull, but Modern control decks can't do the same?
Look, I understand your frustration about not being able to play the exact archetype you want. But at some point you have to have the ability to just adapt to the metagame and find something else to enjoy. There are so many competitive decks in modern right now, surely there is one of them you will like to play?
BGW Junk / URB Grixis Shadow / RGB Lantern Control / WUBCBant Eldrazi
Current Legacy decks
BUG Shardless BUG / UWR Predict Miracles / RUG Canadian Thresh / WRBG 4c Loam
UB Reanimator
I don't really care about this silly archetype discussion but I would like a more controlling deck to be legal in the format. Even something like UB Tezz would be really cool. For that reason it think that Sword of the Meek would be a great unban. It has a difficult time slowing down aggro decks because it can't reasonable come online before turn 3 and even on turn three it only gains one life and makes one token. It might make Zoo and burn a little worse but it is way to slow to beat affinity and midrange decks like Jund and Jund might have to start play additional copies of Malestrom Pulse. I can't see it being a problem at all. It seems like a cool combo that can make a tier 3 deck (that is really sweet might I add) become tier 2.
Grixis Death's Shadow, Jund, UW Tron, Jeskai Control, Storm, Counters Company, Eldrazi Tron, Affinity, Living End, Infect, Merfolk, Dredge, Ad Nauseam, Amulet, Bogles, Eldrazi Tron, Mono U Tron, Lantern, Mardu Pyromancer
The difference is this. When the game goes long in Legacy for something like Miracles, it gets a huge advantage. Jace and top activations get out of hand. It eventually gets a Counterbalance lock. It can have a 1 mana wrath at the ready just in case there are any problems. THe longer the game goes, the more angels it can get off of Entreat the Angels and the easier it is to assemble countermagic to resolve one. Grixis Control doesn't have that. It doesn't get that much better in the late-game than Jund, Junk, or Abzan Company does. That isn't what people who want to make the game go long and then win from a very strong position in the late-game are looking for.
All of the decks that I want to play are tier 3 or worse (WUR Delver, WUR Midrange, WUR Control, Esper Mentor, Esper Control, UW Control, Esper Gifts, Dega Control...), so not really. I might try Scapeshift, but having so many ramp spells that don't affect the board on their own isn't really my thing.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
1) RWU was never a true control deck. matter of fact many thought of it as a burn deck with control elements.
2) How many decks were viable prior and after? Were they the same decks?
3) The Standard example you bring up varies from store to store. In my neck of the woods we have 40 plus people on any given Friday night for Standard. The format went from 4-7 viable decks to 2 decks (UB dragons, mono red burn) until Origins came out. UB dragons killed the diversity of Standard.
Using burn spells as your finisher on like turn 10 isn't a Burn deck. How was it not a Control deck? It was designed to go late. It was playing Sphinx's Revelations and a playset of Cryptic Commands, which gave it an overwhelming advantage in the late-game. Sometimes it played planeswalkers to gain more value as the game went later. That sounds a lot more like Control than like Burn, given that Burn is an all-in aggressive deck that usually wins on turn 4. Just because your deck has 11 burn spells doesn't make it Burn, just like having 11 counterspells and removal spells doesn't automatically make something Control, having 11 creatures doesn't make it Zoo, and having 11 artifacts doesn't make something Affinity. WUR Control didn't even start aiming Burn spells at the face in most matchups until the late-game.
The only decks that really come to mind as being eliminated by Dragons of Tarkir coming out were RW Aggro, Jeskai Tempo, and Jeskai Tokens, while Esper Dragons, RG Dragons, Ojutai Bant, and Abzan Megamorph all became viable.
Bocephus, we both live in the same area, and that has not been my experience. Maybe it is different for FNM's, which I don't go to, but the metagame has not been only 2 decks. And even if it was, Wizards should base their decisions on the overall metagame, not on a shop-to-shop basis.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
That is just silly. Merfolk wins if it resolves 7 creatures that stay in play. So does Zoo. So does Goblins. So does Stompy. So does basically every aggro deck ever. Saying that winning by resolving 7 spells makes a deck Combo is ridiculous. If it is not a combo between specific cards and works with any cards in the deck, then how is it a combo instead of just how Magic naturally works?
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
It isn't about keeping control of the game, it's about surviving. Control is about actual control, not stalling, which is what Scapeshift does.
The problem is that by then, Ancestral Vision doesn't do that much. Scapeshift is about getting those lands into play quickly and then firing off that Scapeshift. Card advantage really isn't important at that point; Scapeshift isn't trying to out-attrition the opponent, just hold them off enough to cast that Scapeshift and have a counterspell to protect it if necessary. Now, if you're dealing with potential counterspells like from Twin, Ancestral Vision becomes better because it lets you push through that Scapeshift, but that makes it more of a sideboard card. Against a ton of decks it's basically a card that comes too late to be of much use even if you do suspend it right away.
Twin wants to either tempo or combo the opponent out no later than turn 6, meaning they want the game either locked up and winning in the next two turns, or the opponent outright dead from infinite damage. Twin can't afford to play AV as anything other than a sideboard card for matches where its forced into playing a grindy game like against BGx. Against those BGx decks, their removal, discard and threat packages are better than Twin's, so Twin has to grind out games, which AV helps with. But against anything else? AV is the opposite of what Twin wants to be doing. Therefor, between its increased speed and its aversion to grinding out incremental advantages, Twin doesn't benefit very much from AV (though it would help Twin shore up its poor BGx MU).
Grixis "Control". I really think Grixis Midrange would be a more appropriate name, but that is a seppartae issue from what I'm talking about here. It would benefit from AV entering the format, but the question lies in whether it benefits more than Scapeshift. I don't think so. Grixis Control wants to grind out games using a combination of early board presence provided by delve beaters paired with the overwhelming advantage provided by KCommand, Snapcaster, Bolt and Cryptic. It gains nothing by allowing the game to run late.
In fact, Tron and Scapeshift actually gain more than it does for allowing the game to run late. Tron gets progressively more consistent and better able to function the later the game goes. The same can be said of any deck, of course, but Tron's effects are so far beyond what most of the format is doing in terms of powerlevel that letting it get to that point is almost always a death sentence, unless you have a method of killing it on the spot like Twin does.
Scapeshift doesn't gain that much either, but it does have a few things going for it that neither Twin nor Grixis have. First, it can't win before turn 7 most of the time. No matter what else happens, what the opponent is doing or anything else, it can't ever win before turn 7 (without a ramp spell, but a lot of lists these days have been cutting some of those to load up on more early interaction, so I think its a reasonable statement). This is important for using AV because it means that, even in its absolute best case scenario of comboing on turn 6, it will always have a few turns to cast AV without it becoming a dead card for the rest of the game. If Twin gets an opening to slam the combo on turn 4 and it already suspended AV, that AV is effectively a dead card that contributed nothing to the victory. That scenario will happen a lot less to Scapeshift, because it can cast AV comfortably on turn 3 (or even turns 5-6, since it might need a Scapeshift or land and its helpful to have a plan B to dig up that combo piece) and still be getting quite valueble use out of it.
Second, Scapeshift lists generally run a semi-transformational sideboard, allowing them to beat combo hate such as Slaughter Games, with the other half of their sideboard allowing them to become harder to interact with via cards like Boseiju. They generally choose which ever beaters are best suited for the matchup (Obsinate Baloth against Burn and BGx, Inferno Titian against Company decks, etc) and side out whatever interaction is worst (small creature removal against Junk for example). AV slots right into that, either digging up more threats, or getting them ahead on cards to keep counters in hand while spending minimal mana.
While I do have my doubts that it would benefit Twin, I think it would definitely benefit Twin more than it would benefit Scapeshift. Twin is more likely to be the one that has to go long and play grindy than Scapeshift (which basically just assembles 8 lands then tries to cast Scapeshift for the win). Even if it's not good in Twin, I feel fairly confident it's better there than in Scapeshift. Especially because card advantage tends to be more important for Twin than in Scapeshift.
I agree that it is midrange. However, to me part of the problem is that Ancestral Vision does not do what it really wants to be doing with its spells: Filling up its graveyard. You suspend it and it only goes into the graveyard after 4 turns. Far less efficient than all of the 1-mana cantrips that immediately fill it up like Serum Visions or Thought Scour.
Trying to claim Scapeshift gets the best boost from Ancestral Vision by comparing it to other decks that likely wouldn't play it (Twin is most likely of the three you mention) seems like saying that if unbanned, Jace gives Merfolk the biggest boost because that card sure isn't going into Delver!
Saying "it can't win before turn 7 without a ramp spell" is much like saying that Twin can't win before turn 5 without a Splinter Twin. The deck plays 8-10 ramp spells (4x Sakura-Tribe Elder 4x Search for Tomorrow guaranteed and sometimes a Farseek or two), so it's extremely likely to draw one and fairly likely to draw a second. You keep pounding on this "it can't win before turn 7" but in all honesty the deck usually is capable of winning on turn 5. In fact, it can actually win on turn 4, though that requires a turn 1 Search for Tomorrow and then two turn 2 Search for Tomorrows. Still, technically possible.
Best case scenario, as established, is turn 4. However, in terms of things likely to happen, turn 5 is reasonably common, so I'm not sure why you're going on about the "best case scenario" is comboing turn 6. One might as well say that the "best case scenario" for GR Tron is to assemble Tron on turn 4.
True, but it also means that Twin has no complaints about the Ancestral Vision. Sure, it didn't do anything, but it didn't need to do anything because they won.
One might claim this is the same for Scapeshift, but Scapeshift is far more reliant on casting its combo. Ancestral Vision actually doesn't do that much to help it do that outside of digging for Scapeshift (and you can do as much digging with other cards that do not take 4 turns to pay off).
Digging is good, but as it's about getting a particular card (Scapeshift so you can combo, a counterspell to protect Scapeshift, or another land), Anticipate, is probably better because of it being far more versatile in terms of when it can be cast. And Anticipate usually doesn't even see play in the deck...
Scapeshift's semi-transformational sideboard isn't really that amazing at improving itself. Sure, it makes it so Slaughter Games isn't an auto-loss, but boy oh boy does it still struggle a lot through that card. But as for the Ancestral Vision, again all of that can be achieved with card filtering.
Just want to point out that the deck you're refering to, stoneblade is actually aggro-control, or midrange, just like most people consider grixis control
Another thing to take into consideration is that one of the "true" draw-go control deck of modern, Esper control doesn't actually need more card advantage, but more ways to handle the early game (no bolt), and I think AV would help more UWR than Esper (though AV could replace Think twice in this deck, I don't really know)
Currently Playing:
Modern Grixis Shadow, Storm
Legacy: Grixis Delver, Sneak and Show
Duel Commander: Kess High Tide
Vintage Big blue(MTGO)
BGW Junk / URB Grixis Shadow / RGB Lantern Control / WUBCBant Eldrazi
Current Legacy decks
BUG Shardless BUG / UWR Predict Miracles / RUG Canadian Thresh / WRBG 4c Loam
UB Reanimator
I really don't consider aggro-control and midrange to be the same thing at all.
anyway, I don't expect stoneforge to ever be unbanned but with all the kolghan's commands running around and tons of combo decks a T3 batterskull doesn't seem like a game ender really.
Id run it in sideboards as a back up plan to my combo in ad nauseum, probably a few more sideboard plans too.
But K-command decks exist, so its probably fine.
Yeah it would definitely be strong and format defining but considering every deck is either:
A) aiming to kill you before that matters
or
B) has removal before you can tap the stoneforge
I am not completely convinced that it is too strong.
Also definitely not saying to unban stoneforge just that it isn't the most ridiculous idea to be debating.
This thread literally cannot stop trying to define what 'Control' means.
Anyway, AV is a safe unban. WOTC should give Blue a little love with a good but not broken (ie. Cruise) card.
With that in mind, I wouldn't mind them unbanning cards to help white out and maybe blue by a bit. Stoneforge and Ancestral are fine. But honestly a few reprints would go a lot further in helping the situation (Mom would be pretty cool to have in the format but I don't think it is needed, something like Rishadan Port would help out tribal and aether vial strategies like merfolk, goblins and d&t).
I don't really know how blue is bad, three of the top tier decks are blue (Twin, Grixis Control, and Merfolk). Blue seems perfectly fine to me in the format. Just because it's not deep, doesn't mean the colour is bad.
Rishidan Port doesn't seem like a safe unban. I could see Burn playing it, and it's one of the top decks, and that could be a problem.
Grixis Death's Shadow, Jund, UW Tron, Jeskai Control, Storm, Counters Company, Eldrazi Tron, Affinity, Living End, Infect, Merfolk, Dredge, Ad Nauseam, Amulet, Bogles, Eldrazi Tron, Mono U Tron, Lantern, Mardu Pyromancer
Burn wouldn't play Rishadan Port, because Burn is too deep in red. Still, Port is bonkers, and has no business being in Modern. The manabases in Modern are so greedy that Port would become the go-to card for cutting a player off a color. I'd almost rather see an Armageddon reprint, because despite how unfun that card is, at least it doesn't become relevant until turn four.
I think Mother of Runes would be a much better reprint. It's a great way of combating the efficient removal in the format.
WUDeath&TaxesWG
Legacy
UBRGDredgeUBRG
UHigh TideU
URGLandsURG
WR Card Choice List
WUR American D&T
WUB Esper D&T
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Heat Maps
This is a false analogy. Burn, unlike every other deck you listed, is very difficult to interact with; which is, coincidentally another characteristic of combo. Aggro decks are different from good combo decks in that they force the opponent to interact but in a much broader(read fairer)context.
GB Rock
U Flooding Merfolk
RUG Delver Midrange
WU Monks
UW Tempo Geist
GW Bogle
GW Liege
UR Tron
B Vampires
Affinity
Legacy
Fish
Goblins
Burn
Reanimator
Dredge
Affinity
EDH
W Akroma
GBW Ghave
BRU Thrax
GR Ruric
I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
That's a funny way to say Lightning Bolt.
You know what else is a characteristic of combo? Using a "combination" of spells with unintended effects to kill someone. Deceiver Exarch + Splinter Twin is a combo. Goblin Guide->Lightning Bolt->Lava Spike is not, as all those cards are doing what they were intended to do: reduce someone's life total to 0. It plays cheap creatures and burn spells to finish off an opponent, which is the hallmark of red based aggro decks. Calling Burn combo is absurd.
Also, why are we even discussing Rishadan Port? It doesn't need an unban to be in Modern, it needs a reprint (which means that it's not for this thread, but the reprint thread).
URW Control
WBG Abzan
GRW Burn
EDH
GR Rosheen Meanderer
Rishadan port isn't banned. Also, white really is bad in Modern nowadays. There aren't any tier 1 or 2 base white decks, as it isn't the main color of Junk, Abzan Company, or Zoo.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Being hard to interact with isn't a characteristic of combo. Control is also hard to interact with (most of it is them interacting with you). So is Prison. And many Combo decks like Twin are easy to interact with.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Yeah, it's pretty tough to argue against white being the weakest color, at this point. I mean, if you look at the Tier 1 section of this forum, 3 decks are blue based (makes those folks who are constantly saying blue gets shafted seem pretty silly) 1 black based deck (though green is almost as present), 1 red based deck, 1 colorless deck. For green you also have several tier 2 decks. But for white, none. But unbanning something like Stoneforge would not really help this, it would help Junk and blue decks more than base white decks.
BGW Junk / URB Grixis Shadow / RGB Lantern Control / WUBCBant Eldrazi
Current Legacy decks
BUG Shardless BUG / UWR Predict Miracles / RUG Canadian Thresh / WRBG 4c Loam
UB Reanimator