Hmm, it seems unthinkable to ban twin but I thought the same thing about Birthing pod a deck so uniquely modern.
Twin is just the most versitile deck in the format, basically it's aggro, tempo, combo, control depending on how you configure it and can change that between games with thier sideboard. that made it pretty much impossible to always have a good match up against it.
My concern is that are they just going to go around knocking off the top deck constantly? because without Twin it just seems like GR tron is just going to walk all over everyone and itself get banned and the cycle continues.. doesn't seem particularly healthy.
My feeling on a Bloom ban are well known at this point.
But a Twin ban? That would be entirely catastrophic for the format. It sends a horrific message of "no combo no matter what".
Are they just going to slaughter every combo deck that gets above 5% meta share?
I don't own Twin, I personally hated the card in standard and I don't particularly like it's "pillar of the format" status, but a ban on it would be absolutely terrible. If you must, ban Exarch so the deck still has options (even if they die to Bolt).
I really hope that the MTGO thing is just one programmer jumping the gun with his own predictions.
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"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
You don't call "dying to removal" if the removal is more expensive in resources than the creature. If you have to spend BG (Abrupt Decay), or W + basic land (PtE) to remove a 1G, that is not "dying to removal". Strictly speaking Goyf dies to removal, but actually your removal is dying to Goyf.
In all honesty a twin ban would suck, because its actively de powering the format. I actually think modern is fine for powerlevel now. It doesn't really need to be raised or lowered.
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Currently Playing:
Modern: UWUW TronUW
Legacy: WDeath N TaxesW CEldrazi C
If you couldn't tell I hate greedy blue decks.
I don't have a hard time thinking they'd ban something out of twin - I have a VERY hard time thinking that they'd ban the card Splinter Twin. The plot thickens..
Isn't a more likely explanation "some dude on reddit wants to flip his Arcbound Ravagers/Karns at a nice profit this weekend"? I mean, since when does MTGO implement anything ahead of time? The B&R updates usually take more than a week to take effect, and it's literally updating a text file.
My concern is that are they just going to go around knocking off the top deck constantly? because without Twin it just seems like GR tron is just going to walk all over everyone and itself get banned and the cycle continues.. doesn't seem particularly healthy.
I wonder if WOTC has a sick enough sense of humor to only ban one of the tron lands and keep the other two legal...
Really what I think the format needs the most is some really good tutor hate. Fetchlands aside, it's the decks that can reliably tutor for their pieces that are the problem (twin being pretty much the only exception in tier 1). I feel like they need Shadow of Doubt stapled onto an artifact similar to Torpor Orb with maybe some additional text that still allows fetchlands to tutor up basic lands (or some variation on that to allow players to grab shocklands as well).
My concern is that are they just going to go around knocking off the top deck constantly? because without Twin it just seems like GR tron is just going to walk all over everyone and itself get banned and the cycle continues.. doesn't seem particularly healthy.
I wonder if WOTC has a sick enough sense of humor to only ban one of the tron lands and keep the other two legal...
Really what I think the format needs the most is some really good tutor hate. Fetchlands aside, it's the decks that can reliably tutor for their pieces that are the problem (twin being pretty much the only exception in tier 1). I feel like they need Shadow of Doubt stapled onto an artifact similar to Torpor Orb with maybe some additional text that still allows fetchlands to tutor up basic lands (or some variation on that to allow players to grab shocklands as well).
A double-sided Stranglehold for 2 mana would be interesting. Though it would definitely create huge amounts of collateral damage.
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"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
You don't call "dying to removal" if the removal is more expensive in resources than the creature. If you have to spend BG (Abrupt Decay), or W + basic land (PtE) to remove a 1G, that is not "dying to removal". Strictly speaking Goyf dies to removal, but actually your removal is dying to Goyf.
I could sort of see why a Twin ban could happen. Twin presents a problem to Modern that tends to be overlooked: it secretly puts a damper on control decks.
You really can't give control any new toys in Modern without Twin taking them all and getting stronger. Twin is basically a control deck with an oops I win emergency button. What's the point in playing any other control deck in Modern if it lacks the instant-win avenue that Twin constantly threatens every game? I mean sure it's fun playing something like Grixis control but if I wanted to go to a tournament I would rather play Twin instead and pick up free wins from the combo instead of having to constantly outgrind and outvalue my opponent every round.
So if they ban Twin I see this being the reasoning -- helping out control indirectly. If Twin is out of the picture I think we can expect more support for control in the future. They can't figure out how to push the other blue decks without pushing Twin. It would be a bombshell dropped on Modern for sure, but it would be a bombshell that would make sense in retrospect.
Someone on reddit brought up a point about a potential twin ban - can't it be argued that Twin is what is pushing control out of the format? Wizards can't print any card advantage cards in blue because it could potentially benefit twin too much - would a ban of twin coupled with an unbanning of AV help boost modern control? Also, if you want to talk about 'format warping' NO deck does that nearly as much as twin. EVERY deck is built to somehow deal with a turn 3 exarch into twin. What does removing that barrier in modern do to the format?
The rumor about Summer Bloom and Splinter Twin getting banned... it's not ridiculously far-fetched. Monday will tell us.
I agree. Playing against twin on turn 4 and beyond, one or two of your lands are basically held hostage to keep up the mana for a kill spell if they decide to combo off. Just the threat of a combo generates so much tempo. Not many decks can put the opponent down two mana on turn four by not playing any cards.
Someone on reddit brought up a point about a potential twin ban - can't it be argued that Twin is what is pushing control out of the format? Wizards can't print any card advantage cards in blue because it could potentially benefit twin too much - would a ban of twin coupled with an unbanning of AV help boost modern control? Also, if you want to talk about 'format warping' NO deck does that nearly as much as twin. EVERY deck is built to somehow deal with a turn 3 exarch into twin. What does removing that barrier in modern do to the format?
Note - I do not want Twin banned.
While the rational makes sense (and points I've used before arguing against Twin), the blowback for Modern would be huge. There are a lot of fears amongst players that we're getting to a YGO style heavy-handed ban list. If one of the supposed format pillars is banned, those complaints are going to hit a crescendo. Modern isn't cheap, and a decent Twin deck runs between $500 and $1000. A Twin ban would severely weaken the deck, and force players to go the Kiki-Jiki route, which might be too slow. A lot of stores had a problem with a player exodus after Pod got banned, and this could easily be worse.
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"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
You don't call "dying to removal" if the removal is more expensive in resources than the creature. If you have to spend BG (Abrupt Decay), or W + basic land (PtE) to remove a 1G, that is not "dying to removal". Strictly speaking Goyf dies to removal, but actually your removal is dying to Goyf.
I knew I saw you on Reddit with this post (it's almost word for word) and I can't help but agree with you.
There's very little reason to actually play control when you can just run splinter twin which is control that will combo out of nowhere to win the game. It's been that way for a very long time.
---
To add my own 2¢:
Until wizards produces counter magic in modern that can reliably stop t2-t3 combos from eating people alive, wizards is going to have to keep banning out whichever combo decides that it wants to be the big man on campus.
Even if the author is silenced, the performance is stopped, the story will not end.
Whether it's a comedy or a tragedy, if there is cheering, the story will continue on.
Just like the many lives.
For the us who are still in it and still in the journey, send warm blessings.
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BBE is going to be retarded in naya burn, atarka's command will almost always be a turn 4 kill
Burn would never play BBE as it's way too expensive card for it. She would only see play in Naya Midrange Zoo but eben that is limited because most bigger Zoo decks play CoCo and BBE doesn't work well with it.
I just want to second this. idk very much about Zoo, but I have played every variation of Burn, and none of them want to touch a 4cmc two color card
Your just kidding yourself if you think coco is better then bbe, its banned for a reason, one you can dispel, and one you can't.
Psst. Sword of the Meek makes a strong control deck that wouldnt bump up twin.
Edit: Well I guess its possible to jam both combos in each deck, but that in theory seems clunky and worse than improving either with interactive elements.
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Currently Playing:
Modern: UWUW TronUW
Legacy: WDeath N TaxesW CEldrazi C
If you couldn't tell I hate greedy blue decks.
So is the leak true since it got removed from reddit that Twin and Bloom got hit? If so I'm shocked that they would hit twin just after reprinting twin in modern masters.
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On mtgsalvation people don't want to discuss ideas, so I give people something else to discuss: my controversial opinions.
So is the leak true since it got removed from reddit that Twin and Bloom got hit? If so I'm shocked that they would hit twin just after reprinting twin in modern masters.
As of right now it is just a rumor on reddit. It hasn't been substantiated by anything other than a potentially buggy beta version of MODO.
I knew I saw you on Reddit with this post (it's almost word for word) and I can't help but agree with you.
There's very little reason to actually play control when you can just run splinter twin which is control that will combo out of nowhere to win the game. It's been that way for a very long time.
---
To add my own 2¢:
Until wizards produces counter magic in modern that can reliably stop t2-t3 combos from eating people alive, wizards is going to have to keep banning out whichever combo decides that it wants to be the big man on campus.
So is the leak true since it got removed from reddit that Twin and Bloom got hit? If so I'm shocked that they would hit twin just after reprinting twin in modern masters.
As of right now it is just a rumor on reddit. It hasn't been substantiated by anything other than a potentially buggy beta version of MODO.
The mods on reddit just nuked the rumor thread. Given that Wizards has a heavy presence over on the MTG subreddit, I'm convinced that the leak is real given the response to it.
@maro254 Are you wary of designing cards like Birthing Pod, which improve as more cards enter the Modern format?
Mark Rosewater: Design designs cool cards which we think players will enjoy using. Preemptively banning areas of design because larger formats might have issues is not how we do things. If the larger formats have problems, they can ban the card. As long as there are smaller environments (Standard and Limited, especially) where we think the card will shine and be beloved, we'll make it.
If they wanted blue to have better control options, they would go ahead and print them for Standard, and then ban them if they are too dominant in the eternal formats. Having Twin around doesn't and will never stop them from designing cards for Standard. And as we all know, when they design for Standard, they don't design those cards with Modern in mind. They just make whatever they want to make for their Limited cycle, and that's it.
Unless of course, there was a discussion had somewhere down the line, and things changed, and now maybe they look at Modern before they design cards, but I doubt it. Because I honestly don't see what control cards could come off the banlist or enter the card-pool in some way that would necessitate a Twin banning. And if that is the rational, that they want to ban Twin to let control have more options, then they better unban something really ******* sweet like Jace, the Mind Sculptor or Stoneforge Mystic. At least that way, you throw the Twin players a bone and give them something new to play with and brew around. You could easily make a U/R/W tempo control deck with JTMS or SFM. Throw in that new Stormchaser Mage, and things are looking fun.
*EDIT*: Now that I think about it, banning Twin and unbanning SFM seems like an amazing trade. Lot's of Twin players were saying that they would immediately run Twinblade if SFM got unbanned, so at least now if Twin gets banned and SFM gets unbanned, then Twin players will just swap out Splinter Twin for SFM, and honestly, I think that's a fair trade. Twin would lose its combo piece, but it can use SFM as a new leg to stand on and transform the deck into a more midrange/control grindy hybrid. The rest of the format gains a powerful white card and can help other lower tier strategies. Not a bad trade, I must say, not a bad trade at all.
You don't call "dying to removal" if the removal is more expensive in resources than the creature. If you have to spend BG (Abrupt Decay), or W + basic land (PtE) to remove a 1G, that is not "dying to removal". Strictly speaking Goyf dies to removal, but actually your removal is dying to Goyf.
Well... I think the leak is true, it got shutdown within a short period of time.
I just don't know or can confirm if there were any unbans to go along with it. I just can't see Tron being untouched or any midrange deck getting a boost to fight the ultra-ramp decks with these potential bans in place.
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Modern Warp / UR Control / UR Storm / Naya Breachshift / ElectroBalance
Solidarity / Lands / Sneak and Show / Grixis Delver / Reanimator / Belcher / Storm / Dredge
Twin is just the most versitile deck in the format, basically it's aggro, tempo, combo, control depending on how you configure it and can change that between games with thier sideboard. that made it pretty much impossible to always have a good match up against it.
My concern is that are they just going to go around knocking off the top deck constantly? because without Twin it just seems like GR tron is just going to walk all over everyone and itself get banned and the cycle continues.. doesn't seem particularly healthy.
Pioneer:UR Pheonix
Modern:U Mono U Tron
EDH
GB Glissa, the traitor: Army of Cans
UW Dragonlord Ojutai: Dragonlord NOjutai
UWGDerevi, Empyrial Tactician "you cannot fight the storm"
R Zirilan of the claw. The solution to every problem is dragons
UB Etrata, the Silencer Cloning assassination
Peasant cube: Cards I own
THEYRE GOING TO BAN TWIN?!?!?!?!
EVERYBODY PAAAAAAAAANIC
Modern:
UWUW TronUW
Legacy:
WDeath N TaxesW
CEldrazi C
If you couldn't tell I hate greedy blue decks.
Vintage
WWhite Trash
But a Twin ban? That would be entirely catastrophic for the format. It sends a horrific message of "no combo no matter what".
Are they just going to slaughter every combo deck that gets above 5% meta share?
I don't own Twin, I personally hated the card in standard and I don't particularly like it's "pillar of the format" status, but a ban on it would be absolutely terrible. If you must, ban Exarch so the deck still has options (even if they die to Bolt).
I really hope that the MTGO thing is just one programmer jumping the gun with his own predictions.
"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
Modern:
UWUW TronUW
Legacy:
WDeath N TaxesW
CEldrazi C
If you couldn't tell I hate greedy blue decks.
Vintage
WWhite Trash
I wonder if WOTC has a sick enough sense of humor to only ban one of the tron lands and keep the other two legal...
Really what I think the format needs the most is some really good tutor hate. Fetchlands aside, it's the decks that can reliably tutor for their pieces that are the problem (twin being pretty much the only exception in tier 1). I feel like they need Shadow of Doubt stapled onto an artifact similar to Torpor Orb with maybe some additional text that still allows fetchlands to tutor up basic lands (or some variation on that to allow players to grab shocklands as well).
A double-sided Stranglehold for 2 mana would be interesting. Though it would definitely create huge amounts of collateral damage.
"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
You really can't give control any new toys in Modern without Twin taking them all and getting stronger. Twin is basically a control deck with an oops I win emergency button. What's the point in playing any other control deck in Modern if it lacks the instant-win avenue that Twin constantly threatens every game? I mean sure it's fun playing something like Grixis control but if I wanted to go to a tournament I would rather play Twin instead and pick up free wins from the combo instead of having to constantly outgrind and outvalue my opponent every round.
So if they ban Twin I see this being the reasoning -- helping out control indirectly. If Twin is out of the picture I think we can expect more support for control in the future. They can't figure out how to push the other blue decks without pushing Twin. It would be a bombshell dropped on Modern for sure, but it would be a bombshell that would make sense in retrospect.
Note - I do not want Twin banned.
I agree. Playing against twin on turn 4 and beyond, one or two of your lands are basically held hostage to keep up the mana for a kill spell if they decide to combo off. Just the threat of a combo generates so much tempo. Not many decks can put the opponent down two mana on turn four by not playing any cards.
CBW midrange deck
CBW eldrazi processor deck
CBW bw eldrazi shadow midrange
While the rational makes sense (and points I've used before arguing against Twin), the blowback for Modern would be huge. There are a lot of fears amongst players that we're getting to a YGO style heavy-handed ban list. If one of the supposed format pillars is banned, those complaints are going to hit a crescendo. Modern isn't cheap, and a decent Twin deck runs between $500 and $1000. A Twin ban would severely weaken the deck, and force players to go the Kiki-Jiki route, which might be too slow. A lot of stores had a problem with a player exodus after Pod got banned, and this could easily be worse.
"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
There's very little reason to actually play control when you can just run splinter twin which is control that will combo out of nowhere to win the game. It's been that way for a very long time.
---
To add my own 2¢:
Until wizards produces counter magic in modern that can reliably stop t2-t3 combos from eating people alive, wizards is going to have to keep banning out whichever combo decides that it wants to be the big man on campus.
Whether it's a comedy or a tragedy, if there is cheering, the story will continue on.
Just like the many lives.
For the us who are still in it and still in the journey, send warm blessings.
- We will continue to walk down this path until eternity.
Your just kidding yourself if you think coco is better then bbe, its banned for a reason, one you can dispel, and one you can't.
Edit: Well I guess its possible to jam both combos in each deck, but that in theory seems clunky and worse than improving either with interactive elements.
Modern:
UWUW TronUW
Legacy:
WDeath N TaxesW
CEldrazi C
If you couldn't tell I hate greedy blue decks.
Vintage
WWhite Trash
Well what Dasuri said is true
Decks I'm playing in Modern right now:
URB Grixis Reveler (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-grixis-reveler/)
UB Faeries (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/ub-fae-2/)
UW Azorious Control (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-ojutai-control-2/)
As of right now it is just a rumor on reddit. It hasn't been substantiated by anything other than a potentially buggy beta version of MODO.
Yup, that was me
The mods on reddit just nuked the rumor thread. Given that Wizards has a heavy presence over on the MTG subreddit, I'm convinced that the leak is real given the response to it.
@maro254 Are you wary of designing cards like Birthing Pod, which improve as more cards enter the Modern format?
Mark Rosewater: Design designs cool cards which we think players will enjoy using. Preemptively banning areas of design because larger formats might have issues is not how we do things. If the larger formats have problems, they can ban the card. As long as there are smaller environments (Standard and Limited, especially) where we think the card will shine and be beloved, we'll make it.
If they wanted blue to have better control options, they would go ahead and print them for Standard, and then ban them if they are too dominant in the eternal formats. Having Twin around doesn't and will never stop them from designing cards for Standard. And as we all know, when they design for Standard, they don't design those cards with Modern in mind. They just make whatever they want to make for their Limited cycle, and that's it.
Unless of course, there was a discussion had somewhere down the line, and things changed, and now maybe they look at Modern before they design cards, but I doubt it. Because I honestly don't see what control cards could come off the banlist or enter the card-pool in some way that would necessitate a Twin banning. And if that is the rational, that they want to ban Twin to let control have more options, then they better unban something really ******* sweet like Jace, the Mind Sculptor or Stoneforge Mystic. At least that way, you throw the Twin players a bone and give them something new to play with and brew around. You could easily make a U/R/W tempo control deck with JTMS or SFM. Throw in that new Stormchaser Mage, and things are looking fun.
*EDIT*: Now that I think about it, banning Twin and unbanning SFM seems like an amazing trade. Lot's of Twin players were saying that they would immediately run Twinblade if SFM got unbanned, so at least now if Twin gets banned and SFM gets unbanned, then Twin players will just swap out Splinter Twin for SFM, and honestly, I think that's a fair trade. Twin would lose its combo piece, but it can use SFM as a new leg to stand on and transform the deck into a more midrange/control grindy hybrid. The rest of the format gains a powerful white card and can help other lower tier strategies. Not a bad trade, I must say, not a bad trade at all.
Modern Warp / UR Control / UR Storm / Naya Breachshift / ElectroBalance
Solidarity / Lands / Sneak and Show / Grixis Delver / Reanimator / Belcher / Storm / Dredge
It is usually noon EST (9 AM PST)
"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
I just don't know or can confirm if there were any unbans to go along with it. I just can't see Tron being untouched or any midrange deck getting a boost to fight the ultra-ramp decks with these potential bans in place.