Only barely. We also at this point have testing that gives us substantial evidence SFM wouldn't dominate or push out aggro, whereas we have also hard evidence that seething song straight up breaks the Turn 4 rule in storm. The fact of the matter is that in a competitive context the strength of swords + Skull would only even become PLAYABLE with SFM in the first place because without her they simply aren't good enough, and we also have good reason to believe SFM + Skull and Swords would not in fact dominate modern, push out aggro, or cause any other of these hypothetical problems that make her a hypothetical boogeyman in the format.
We have testing? Who's?
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MODERN RGB Jund BGR WGB Junk/Abzan Company WGB
LEGACY RUGB Delver GURB
EDH UW Geist of Saint Traft Aggro-Control WU RUG Riku of Two Reflections Combo GUR BBB Skithiryx Control BB
Only barely. We also at this point have testing that gives us substantial evidence SFM wouldn't dominate or push out aggro, whereas we have also hard evidence that seething song straight up breaks the Turn 4 rule in storm. The fact of the matter is that in a competitive context the strength of swords + Skull would only even become PLAYABLE with SFM in the first place because without her they simply aren't good enough, and we also have good reason to believe SFM + Skull and Swords would not in fact dominate modern, push out aggro, or cause any other of these hypothetical problems that make her a hypothetical boogeyman in the format.
I think substantial evidence is way to strong for what we acually have...some people played a few hundered games...that is NOT substantial. Over the past few years we learned that Magic (and Modern specifically) has become so complex that players need time and a lot of games to correctly evaluate the power of a card or synergy. Just think of Kolaghan's Command or the Eldrazi Decks...they didn´t burst into the format once they were legal, the Mtg-Communty needed weeks or months with thousands of games before it became clear how good they actually are!
I think the same applies to SfM...we just don´t know how good he really is in the modern format. We can assume and play some test matches, but we clearly have no evidence whatsoever about his actual power in the Modern format
Fair, substantial evidence is probably an overstatement. But we do have actual data and test matches that demonstrate enough to show that SFM doesn't simply roll over aggro, which is one of the big reasons people say SFM is problematic. I've mentioned before that I'm up to be convinced that SFM is too dangerous but the data we do have suggests she is much safer than a lot of people argue she would be.
Only barely. We also at this point have testing that gives us substantial evidence SFM wouldn't dominate or push out aggro, whereas we have also hard evidence that seething song straight up breaks the Turn 4 rule in storm. The fact of the matter is that in a competitive context the strength of swords + Skull would only even become PLAYABLE with SFM in the first place because without her they simply aren't good enough, and we also have good reason to believe SFM + Skull and Swords would not in fact dominate modern, push out aggro, or cause any other of these hypothetical problems that make her a hypothetical boogeyman in the format.
We have testing? Who's?
There are modern nexus articles testing Abzan SFM lists against affinity and she had no statistical impact on the win percentage in matchup IIRC. The ban list update article also on modern nexus also mentions further but limited testing against Burn and Zoo with results that were described as "fairly balanced."
I admit that "substantial" was a misleading qualifier for the evidence we have, but it is a lot more than any testing we have that suggests she would singlehandedly run aggro out of the format (of which we have none).
Stop all the craziness. SFM's not getting unbanned. All this over a silly little promo and drawing insane conclusions from it.
They've been very conservative with this format. Just last year they banned DTT because it MIGHT take over where TC left off. Does that sound like the kind of ban list decision from a group that would release a card with a very high oppressiveness potential? Nope.
Stop all the craziness. SFM's not getting unbanned. All this over a silly little promo and drawing insane conclusions from it.
They've been very conservative with this format. Just last year they banned DTT because it MIGHT take over where TC left off. Does that sound like the kind of ban list decision from a group that would release a card with a very high oppressiveness potential? Nope.
Stop the craziness? You mean the justified conversations about a card that MANY don't think is format breaking? THE HORROR!
It's just too safe to see play if it only tutors, Steelshaper's Gift already sees no play as it is.
Even normal Sfm wouldn't see play in affinity and I can't see a Squire that only tutors an equipment seeing play in D&T when they are already trying to shut down library search.
I'm pretty sure D&T would play stoneforge over leonin arbiter in a straight swap and be vastly superior to what it is today. Aven Mindcensor would get a lot more popular most like (equipment liking wings and all).
Not in a million years until everyone else in the format starts playing 4 less lands in their deck and wasteland + port becomes modern legal.
Say what you will, I'm still thinking that WoTC isn't going to unban a card unless they can give it a healthy reprinting. Especially something that has been out of print as long as SFM. A promo isn't going to cut it, unfortunately, and the only other place we may see it reprinted would be a modern masters, which likely isn't going to happen since the next one is going to include Innistrad and later.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Say what you will, I'm still thinking that WoTC isn't going to unban a card unless they can give it a healthy reprinting. Especially something that has been out of print as long as SFM. A promo isn't going to cut it, unfortunately, and the only other place we may see it reprinted would be a modern masters, which likely isn't going to happen since the next one is going to include Innistrad and later.
Ehhhh - I don't think Wizards cares *that* much about card prices in modern. They're fully aware of the prices of the OG Zen fetches, Goyf, Lily, etc. and none of that has effected any of their decision making thus far regarding the ban list. But honestly, who knows at this point, Monday is going to be interesting.
Say what you will, I'm still thinking that WoTC isn't going to unban a card unless they can give it a healthy reprinting. Especially something that has been out of print as long as SFM. A promo isn't going to cut it, unfortunately, and the only other place we may see it reprinted would be a modern masters, which likely isn't going to happen since the next one is going to include Innistrad and later.
Bitterblossom hadn't been printed since Lorwyn when it came off which was a set opened far less than Worldwake, it didn't get a reprint to the following modern masters 6 months later.
Gp promos will also add a ton of copies of Stoneforge to the pool over the next year
Stop all the craziness. SFM's not getting unbanned. All this over a silly little promo and drawing insane conclusions from it.
They've been very conservative with this format. Just last year they banned DTT because it MIGHT take over where TC left off. Does that sound like the kind of ban list decision from a group that would release a card with a very high oppressiveness potential? Nope.
Stop the craziness? You mean the justified conversations about a card that MANY don't think is format breaking? THE HORROR!
Stop all the craziness. SFM's not getting unbanned. All this over a silly little promo and drawing insane conclusions from it.
They've been very conservative with this format. Just last year they banned DTT because it MIGHT take over where TC left off. Does that sound like the kind of ban list decision from a group that would release a card with a very high oppressiveness potential? Nope.
Stop the craziness? You mean the justified conversations about a card that MANY don't think is format breaking? THE HORROR!
It's not justified. It's a pipe-dream.
If you don't want to talk about cards coming off the banlist then don't participate in the thread. I have no problem with people actively disagreeing with other people here but it's not fun or productive to try and engage with someone who just thinks everyone else is ridiculous.
It's just too safe to see play if it only tutors, Steelshaper's Gift already sees no play as it is.
Even normal Sfm wouldn't see play in affinity and I can't see a Squire that only tutors an equipment seeing play in D&T when they are already trying to shut down library search.
I'm pretty sure D&T would play stoneforge over leonin arbiter in a straight swap and be vastly superior to what it is today. Aven Mindcensor would get a lot more popular most like (equipment liking wings and all).
Not in a million years until everyone else in the format starts playing 4 less lands in their deck and wasteland + port becomes modern legal.
This makes THREE long time DNT players telling this thread that it wouldn't play sfm.
It's just too safe to see play if it only tutors, Steelshaper's Gift already sees no play as it is.
Even normal Sfm wouldn't see play in affinity and I can't see a Squire that only tutors an equipment seeing play in D&T when they are already trying to shut down library search.
I'm pretty sure D&T would play stoneforge over leonin arbiter in a straight swap and be vastly superior to what it is today. Aven Mindcensor would get a lot more popular most like (equipment liking wings and all).
Not in a million years until everyone else in the format starts playing 4 less lands in their deck and wasteland + port becomes modern legal.
This makes THREE long time DNT players telling this thread that it wouldn't play sfm.
My question is, why do people keep telling me that SFM is ok to unban but, for some reason, Bloodbraid Elf is still too powerful to be unbanned? I feel like I'm missing something here.
I know, I just wanted to save anyone some time following along who's reading @bocephus's post. Video overall is pretty interesting, coming out of a high-powered Standard.
Here's a direct link to the SFM section of the Forsythe interview mentioned above.
A lot has changed in Modern since 2011.
Quote from shadow2000 »
This is referring to Standard more than anything and is also 4-5 years old.
A lot has changed since then
I said it was 4 years old and was the original reasoning to why SFM was banned along with the rest.
Since then AF did an interview with someone from this site (I can not remember who) and said SFM, JTMS and GSZ have a grave in Modern. If you want to play those cards go play Legacy.
Recently both Maro and AF have said its crazy talk thinking SFM will be unbanned in Modern on Twitter.
Until someone from Wotc says something that shows they have changed their thinking, I think all the talk is just going to annoy people.
Until Maro, Forsythe, or someone from Wotc comes out and says SFM is a possible unban in Modern, I think all the talk about SFM is wasted key strokes. Forsythe who is the head of Modern, has said those thinking SFM coming off is crazy thinking. He even said SFM has a grave for itself in Modern, if you want to play SFM go play Legacy.
So, what probably will happen is ...
Something from Bloom may or may not be banned and SotM may come off.
Nothing is certain.
Quote of Forsythe saying SFM is too good for modern? I've never seen this.
If Sword of the Meek comes off: then it's safe to say SFM will never be unbanned.
Also: there is decent reason to speculate about SFM. This is the first time in the history of magic that a "banned card" in a major format was made into a GP promo.
Just looked this up and http://mtgsalvation.gamepedia.com/Promotional_cards states that Chrome Mox and Umezawa's Jitte were GP Promos. Both are banned, so not sure we can attribute a wish for an unban to the foil printing. It may just be a cool card they wanted new art for and so on.
Recently both Maro and AF have said its crazy talk thinking SFM will be unbanned in Modern on Twitter.
Maro was also explicit in stating that enemy fetchlands would not be in Battle for Zendikar. Which, while technically not IN BFZ, they are found within BFZ booster packs.
And you wonder why we don't trust anything they say?
Let the broke decks flail it out in a no-holds barred deathmatch.
Ban Bloom, Ban Griselbrand, Ban Emrakul, Aeons Torn; Ban Urzatron Lands.
I was okay with you first request but it seems you have a vendetta against the rest of the cards. Learn to sure up your match-ups if you are so afraid of those cards.
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We have testing? Who's?
RGB Jund BGR
WGB Junk/Abzan Company WGB
LEGACY
RUGB Delver GURB
EDH
UW Geist of Saint Traft Aggro-Control WU
RUG Riku of Two Reflections Combo GUR
BBB Skithiryx Control BB
Fair, substantial evidence is probably an overstatement. But we do have actual data and test matches that demonstrate enough to show that SFM doesn't simply roll over aggro, which is one of the big reasons people say SFM is problematic. I've mentioned before that I'm up to be convinced that SFM is too dangerous but the data we do have suggests she is much safer than a lot of people argue she would be.
There are modern nexus articles testing Abzan SFM lists against affinity and she had no statistical impact on the win percentage in matchup IIRC. The ban list update article also on modern nexus also mentions further but limited testing against Burn and Zoo with results that were described as "fairly balanced."
http://modernnexus.com/banlist-test-stoneforge-abzan-vs-affinity-pt-1/
http://modernnexus.com/banlist-test-stoneforge-abzan-vs-affinity-pt-2/
http://modernnexus.com/modern-banlist-predictions-for-january-18-2016/
I admit that "substantial" was a misleading qualifier for the evidence we have, but it is a lot more than any testing we have that suggests she would singlehandedly run aggro out of the format (of which we have none).
They've been very conservative with this format. Just last year they banned DTT because it MIGHT take over where TC left off. Does that sound like the kind of ban list decision from a group that would release a card with a very high oppressiveness potential? Nope.
Standard: lol no
Modern: BG/x, UR/x, Burn, Merfolk, Zoo, Storm
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Delver (BUG, RUG, Grixis), Landstill, Depths Combo, Merfolk
Vintage: Dark Times, BUG Fish, Merfolk
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion / Krenko, Mob Boss / Stonebrow, Krosan Hero
Stop the craziness? You mean the justified conversations about a card that MANY don't think is format breaking? THE HORROR!
Not in a million years until everyone else in the format starts playing 4 less lands in their deck and wasteland + port becomes modern legal.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Legacy: RUG Delver
Ehhhh - I don't think Wizards cares *that* much about card prices in modern. They're fully aware of the prices of the OG Zen fetches, Goyf, Lily, etc. and none of that has effected any of their decision making thus far regarding the ban list. But honestly, who knows at this point, Monday is going to be interesting.
Bitterblossom hadn't been printed since Lorwyn when it came off which was a set opened far less than Worldwake, it didn't get a reprint to the following modern masters 6 months later.
Gp promos will also add a ton of copies of Stoneforge to the pool over the next year
Standard: lol no
Modern: BG/x, UR/x, Burn, Merfolk, Zoo, Storm
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Delver (BUG, RUG, Grixis), Landstill, Depths Combo, Merfolk
Vintage: Dark Times, BUG Fish, Merfolk
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion / Krenko, Mob Boss / Stonebrow, Krosan Hero
If you don't want to talk about cards coming off the banlist then don't participate in the thread. I have no problem with people actively disagreeing with other people here but it's not fun or productive to try and engage with someone who just thinks everyone else is ridiculous.
This makes THREE long time DNT players telling this thread that it wouldn't play sfm.
A lot has changed in Modern since 2011.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
Legacy: RUG Delver
This is referring to Standard more than anything and is also 4-5 years old.
A lot has changed since then
An argument could be made that modern is weaker now than it was then.
I said it was 4 years old and was the original reasoning to why SFM was banned along with the rest.
Since then AF did an interview with someone from this site (I can not remember who) and said SFM, JTMS and GSZ have a grave in Modern. If you want to play those cards go play Legacy.
Recently both Maro and AF have said its crazy talk thinking SFM will be unbanned in Modern on Twitter.
Until someone from Wotc says something that shows they have changed their thinking, I think all the talk is just going to annoy people.
I feel like you now need to make that argument.
Those were before the Modern Format existed.
Maro was also explicit in stating that enemy fetchlands would not be in Battle for Zendikar. Which, while technically not IN BFZ, they are found within BFZ booster packs.
And you wonder why we don't trust anything they say?
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
Unban Jace
Unban Ancestral Vision
Unban BBE
Let the broke decks flail it out in a no-holds barred deathmatch.
Ban Bloom, Ban Griselbrand, Ban Emrakul, Aeons Torn; Ban Urzatron Lands.
I was okay with you first request but it seems you have a vendetta against the rest of the cards. Learn to sure up your match-ups if you are so afraid of those cards.