Anyone think Green Sun's Zenith could come off the list? Fetching for an early Gaddock Teeg, Goyf, KotR, or even a Dryad Arbor doesn't seem all that degenerate, especially when a bunch of decks are running PtE and Lightning Bolt anyways.
sorry for asking a bit of a dumb question but why was green sun's even banned in the first place?
I'm a bit new to modern as I've been playing it for about a year now, so I don't know logic behind some of the early bannings
The basic reasoning was it reduced deck diversity, which seems kind of loose to me.
It's also ramp - but I also think the GSZ banning is a little shaky.
I can't see GSZ breaking modern too much tbh, unless I'm missing any decks that would break it
Maybe Elves and Amulet Bloom (assuming Bloom can generate 7 mana in one go) get too strong? Elves already has Chord of Calling though.
Keep in mind there was a bunch of other fast mana around when it was banned (Seething Song, Rite of Flame, Cloudpost) that may have exacerbated GSZ's impact. The only decent decks I remember from the first PT using it were Bant aggro (seems like a fair deck to me) and Twelvepost, which isn't around anymore.
It is also sorcery speed and always full price unlike Chord of Calling
Green Sun's Zenith is weak sauce compared to Chord in most decks, but GSZ allows some decks to go off too fast and that is a big NO NO. Actually sorcery speed might be a positive because you don't get blown out by Dispel...
UUU Merfolk UUU "Above the waves you may be mighty indeed, but down here you belong to me."
-Empress Galina
UBR Cruel Control UBR "The essence of every world, every spell, and every thought is power. Nothing else matters, because nothing else exists."
-Nicol Bolas
sorry for asking a bit of a dumb question but why was green sun's even banned in the first place?
I'm a bit new to modern as I've been playing it for about a year now, so I don't know logic behind some of the early bannings
The basic reasoning was it reduced deck diversity, which seems kind of loose to me.
It's also ramp - but I also think the GSZ banning is a little shaky.
I can't see GSZ breaking modern too much tbh, unless I'm missing any decks that would break it
Maybe Elves and Amulet Bloom (assuming Bloom can generate 7 mana in one go) get too strong? Elves already has Chord of Calling though.
Keep in mind there was a bunch of other fast mana around when it was banned (Seething Song, Rite of Flame, Cloudpost) that may have exacerbated GSZ's impact. The only decent decks I remember from the first PT using it were Bant aggro (seems like a fair deck to me) and Twelvepost, which isn't around anymore.
think that having access to GSZ will allow elves to do anything dumb though?
On the other hand, unless I'm missing something, there is no interaction between the new Jace since you can't suspend AV of flipped Jace's -2 (though someone correct me if I'm wrong).
You definitely can't suspend with Jace -2. I think his line of thinking is that with -2 you cast AV for free, but... I.... don't... think that's true....
It's an extraordinarily powerful consistency tool. MAYBE if it didn't shuffle back into the deck I'd be more okay with it but it does. As long as blue can't have preordain I see no reason for green to get GSZ.
Yep. You can't cast cards like AV or Living End from zones other than your hand in most circumstances.
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UUU Merfolk UUU "Above the waves you may be mighty indeed, but down here you belong to me."
-Empress Galina
UBR Cruel Control UBR "The essence of every world, every spell, and every thought is power. Nothing else matters, because nothing else exists."
-Nicol Bolas
As a Bloom player myself the deck doesn't need to be killed. It's honestly not that bad, the T2's rarely happen and the Titan can be answered. If they want to touch it, ban Hivemind and move on IMO. That's the stupid card that lets you "oops, I win". Random topdecks of that Enchantment just win it for you. If people are really complaining about a deck that turns a creature sideways to win then I'm not sure what to think. 75-80% of the games you win with Amulet are off of the back of Titan anyways. There is nothing unfair about winning through creature combat, and this is coming from a long time combo/control player.
As a Bloom player myself the deck doesn't need to be killed. It's honestly not that bad, the T2's rarely happen and the Titan can be answered. If they want to touch it, ban Hivemind and move on IMO. That's the stupid card that lets you "oops, I win". Random topdecks of that Enchantment just win it for you. If people are really complaining about a deck that turns a creature sideways to win then I'm not sure what to think. 75-80% of the games you win with Amulet are off of the back of Titan anyways. There is nothing unfair about winning through creature combat, and this is coming from a long time combo/control player.
I think most here agree with you. Hive Mind is MUCH more of a problem than Titan.
He probably meant that blue already has enough tools now that Jace got printed.
Just because your color isn't far and away the best color in the format doesn't mean it sucks. Blue has a ton of the best spells and synergies in the format along with the best aggressive build, and some of the absolute best cards available. And you still aren't satisfied? Please, give me a freaking break.
As a Bloom player myself the deck doesn't need to be killed. It's honestly not that bad, the T2's rarely happen and the Titan can be answered. If they want to touch it, ban Hivemind and move on IMO. That's the stupid card that lets you "oops, I win". Random topdecks of that Enchantment just win it for you. If people are really complaining about a deck that turns a creature sideways to win then I'm not sure what to think. 75-80% of the games you win with Amulet are off of the back of Titan anyways. There is nothing unfair about winning through creature combat, and this is coming from a long time combo/control player.
I think most here agree with you. Hive Mind is MUCH more of a problem than Titan.
That being said I don't think they can hit Blood Moon because of it. Blood Moon is an unfair card, but only to unfair decks in the first place. We need a card like that to keep the greedy decks and stupid wombo combo decks in check. Trust me, I don't really like Blood Moon, but I do so where it was needed. Just making the statement in general as I saw some people complaining about it. You think decks do stupid dumb things now, wait until BM isn't around to police those strategies. Modern may not have a Daze or Force of Will to shut down the stupid stuff, but they do have Blood Moon which, in a way, can fill the same role. Maybe not as early, but the concept of just completely blanking the opponent's entire deck is close enough to be game winning the same way Daze/FoW are.
but by far the best line was : 'We need to stop with the selfishness. Not everything is going to be catered to you, and that's okay. Modern isn't for everyone. Neither is Legacy or Standard or Limited'
I would have no problem with this if all formats were equally playable, but sadly, I can't find Legacy anywhere. And that's the issue with the "Go play another format." Thing some people espouse.
On the other hand, unless I'm missing something, there is no interaction between the new Jace since you can't suspend AV of flipped Jace's -2 (though someone correct me if I'm wrong).
You definitely can't suspend with Jace -2. I think his line of thinking is that with -2 you cast AV for free, but... I.... don't... think that's true....
I assumed he was talking about jace's loot neutering the complaint that AV is a bad top deck.
but by far the best line was : 'We need to stop with the selfishness. Not everything is going to be catered to you, and that's okay. Modern isn't for everyone. Neither is Legacy or Standard or Limited'
I would have no problem with this if all formats were equally playable, but sadly, I can't find Legacy anywhere. And that's the issue with the "Go play another format." Thing some people espouse.
Then that's a discussion for the prices thread. I am firmly against the mindset that modern should just be legacy without the reserved list, despite many players assertations that the formats are coming together anyway due to power creep. The ideal, IMO, is to keep all formats as distinct from each other as possible. This partially means keeping popular legacy strategies such as stoneblade out of the format. Of course you are free to disagree, but as someone who plays standard modern legacy and pauper, I like getting different experiences from all of them and would hate modern to be treated as a stepping stone to legacy.
Anyone got the details from Chapin's "Painful Truths And The Modern Banned List" article?.. Not really looking to waste money on a subscription to read standard articles 75% of the time that I don't care about or watch Gerry T stream Treasure Hunt as the only modern content for the week.
[quote from="bill_zagoudis »" url="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/617663-current-modern-banlist-discussion-9-28-2015-update?comment=5547"]
but by far the best line was : 'We need to stop with the selfishness. Not everything is going to be catered to you, and that's okay. Modern isn't for everyone. Neither is Legacy or Standard or Limited'
I would have no problem with this if all formats were equally playable, but sadly, I can't find Legacy anywhere. And that's the issue with the "Go play another format." Thing some people espouse.
besides from the fact that having Legacy and Modern as legacy lite makes 0 sense no matter how you approach this, let's say that i like modern and i dislike legacy, what about me and all the players like me? we matter less?
No. I just find the "Go play another format." thing asinine because it's a non-argument. I'm allowed to have my own opinion of what I'd like in Modern, even if it doesn't coincide with what others who currently like Modern think.
Besides, the more Wizards kills off Legacy, the more people you're going to have wanting Modern to be Legacy Lite.
I personally don't want Modern to be a watered down version of Legacy either, because that sounds pointless. It'd scare off the people who like Modern for what it is, and not actually attract the people who like Legacy for what it is. It'd be one of those "Trying to find a middle ground that ends up pleasing no one." situations.
I'd just like people to stop using the "Go play another format." thing (Which I know he wasn't, but some people in this thread have done repeatedly), because it's just saying "Shut up, your opinion isn't welcome here, get out."
Also, the people who matter are those who affect Wizards bottom line the most, and that's pretty much it. If making Modern Legacy Lite got more people watching/more people in seats, they wouldn't give the slightest damn how much other people like Modern right now, they'd do it in a heartbeat, because they need to make money. And if they didn't want to, I'm sure Hasbro would tell them to anyway.
you can always play Magic Online if you can't find paper Legacy event, asking modern to become like legacy just for your convenience is objectively selfish
I'm not actually asking for Modern to become more like Legacy, just for Legacy to EXIST around me. That way no one would have to tell me to go play another format when I want my Legacy fix. I'd be willing to drive a fair distance to play, but a hundred miles is a stupid amount.
As for MTGO, that's a non-solution as well, since I'd have to spend as much as it cost me to build my deck in the first place to play on there.
after all legacy is unpopular for more than one reasons
Legacy is surprisingly popular given everything working against it. I'm well aware of why some people don't like it, why some people do, and what keeps others out of the format. But "Go play Legacy instead." is a non-argument when there's no Legacy for the person in question to play.
The more Legacy dies, the more people will want Modern to be like Legacy, because they simply have no other alternative. If you want people who like Legacy to stop asking Modern to be Legacy lite, it's in your best interests to convince Wizards to support Legacy so that those people actually have their own format and can stop bugging you guys.
I personally like the differences between Legacy and Modern. I would just like to be able to play both. That doesn't strike me as being particularly unreasonable.
I'm mostly just wanting people to stop using "Play another format" as an 'argument.'
Like he said, each format has its own identity, and I actually quite like that myself, even if I find Standard boring as hell.
On the other hand, unless I'm missing something, there is no interaction between the new Jace since you can't suspend AV of flipped Jace's -2 (though someone correct me if I'm wrong).
You definitely can't suspend with Jace -2. I think his line of thinking is that with -2 you cast AV for free, but... I.... don't... think that's true....
I assumed he was talking about jace's loot neutering the complaint that AV is a bad top deck.
That's kind of what I thought too, but loot effects have been around forever (especially Desolate Lighthouse), so I don't think that's what he was referencing. I think he must have thought you could use jace's -2 to suspend/cast from the graveyard (which is confusing on the face, and I had to double check myself).
Anyone got the details from Chapin's "Painful Truths And The Modern Banned List" article?.. Not really looking to waste money on a subscription to read standard articles 75% of the time that I don't care about or watch Gerry T stream Treasure Hunt as the only modern content for the week.
It's largely about Standard and Painful Truths. He has a little bit about the banlist, almost all of it remarkably levelheaded. He wants a Sword unban and thinks it's reasonable. He'd like a BBE unban too but thinks Jund doesn't need all the help it would give. He isn't QUITE sold on a Summer Bloom ban but wouldn't lament it and sees arguments on both sides (also, that Bloom itself is the card to go).
Question : What is it about Legacy that many of you don't like and what would have to change in modern for it to feel like how you feel about legacy? To me personally, Legacy feels like a VERY specific group of cards that cannot and will not be modern legal and the meta that has developed around that specific subset of cards : Brainstorm, Wasteland, Force of Will, Dark Ritual, Top, The Duals, DRS, True-Name, Jitte, Show and Tell, and Entomb/Exhume. In many ways, without these cards it's impossible to have a format 'like legacy', because these cards are largely what defines that format - and in many other ways we have a metagame that has shaken out very similarly to legacy already (strong combos, slightly lacking midrange, strong aggro, no 'real' control). Eventually as power creep happens and the card pool gets bigger and more powerful, we'll inevitably end up with a stronger format - so what makes it feel like legacy to you?
but by far the best line was : 'We need to stop with the selfishness. Not everything is going to be catered to you, and that's okay. Modern isn't for everyone. Neither is Legacy or Standard or Limited'
I would have no problem with this if all formats were equally playable, but sadly, I can't find Legacy anywhere. And that's the issue with the "Go play another format." Thing some people espouse.
Then that's a discussion for the prices thread. I am firmly against the mindset that modern should just be legacy without the reserved list, despite many players assertations that the formats are coming together anyway due to power creep. The ideal, IMO, is to keep all formats as distinct from each other as possible. This partially means keeping popular legacy strategies such as stoneblade out of the format. Of course you are free to disagree, but as someone who plays standard modern legacy and pauper, I like getting different experiences from all of them and would hate modern to be treated as a stepping stone to legacy.
that's what I like about modern, it still has quite a large card pool but is a lot more accessible and has different decks for the most part
I'm fine with having very different ban lists to keep them different formats and have different top decks so modern doesn't essentially turn into a more "legacy lite"
Anyone got the details from Chapin's "Painful Truths And The Modern Banned List" article?.. Not really looking to waste money on a subscription to read standard articles 75% of the time that I don't care about or watch Gerry T stream Treasure Hunt as the only modern content for the week.
It's largely about Standard and Painful Truths. He has a little bit about the banlist, almost all of it remarkably levelheaded. He wants a Sword unban and thinks it's reasonable. He'd like a BBE unban too but thinks Jund doesn't need all the help it would give. He isn't QUITE sold on a Summer Bloom ban but wouldn't lament it and sees arguments on both sides (also, that Bloom itself is the card to go).
Pretty much. I was hoping the article would be more similar to this: http://www.starcitygames.com/article/29817_Cards-To-Unban-In-Modern-Legacy-And-Vintage.html from last year to see how his mind had changed or remained constant about a lot of these things. I didn't really like Lowry's article much because I felt he didn't really have an over-arching point about the format so much as many small points that I found to contradict one another (like suggesting running more counter magic for combo immediately after noting the prevalence of linear aggro decks and their resiliency against counter magic, or suggesting a Summer Bloom ban after spending a great deal of time shrugging at the turn 4 rule), but one thing I found interesting is that his fairly random Cloudpost suggestion was also present in Chapins article above. In the Chapin article he claims that 12 post decks didn't have a very high win percentage relatively speaking. I wasn't around for 12-post in modern so I couldn't attest to that one way or another, but is that true? And would 12-post without GSZ be substantially more threatening that Tron?
I'm asking because conceptually it seems like 12-post was one of the first things to get the boot, so it seems strange that a Cloudpost unban would seem safe, much less safer than the usual candidates. Is there any merit to this or is it more or less just a silly suggestion?
Question : What is it about Legacy that many of you don't like and what would have to change in modern for it to feel like how you feel about legacy? To me personally, Legacy feels like a VERY specific group of cards that cannot and will not be modern legal and the meta that has developed around that specific subset of cards : Brainstorm, Wasteland, Force of Will, Dark Ritual, Top, The Duals, DRS, True-Name, Jitte, Show and Tell, and Entomb/Exhume. In many ways, without these cards it's impossible to have a format 'like legacy', because these cards are largely what defines that format - and in many other ways we have a metagame that has shaken out very similarly to legacy already (strong combos, slightly lacking midrange, strong aggro, no 'real' control). Eventually as power creep happens and the card pool gets bigger and more powerful, we'll inevitably end up with a stronger format - so what makes it feel like legacy to you?
my understanding is that because Legacy is largely unsupported even dying in many parts of the world (i can attend to standard and Modern up to ~10 times a week for sanctioned DCI events if i drive for 20-30 minutes yet to find a legacy event i probably need to fly for 1 hour for instance) , Legacy players want to play their favorite decks/cards in modern instead, it's not that they dislike something (apart from that BLue is not what they used to, aka the 'master color') but rather that they can't play what they like (JTMS,SFM usually)
i don't like legacy so i might not get their feelings on the matter entirely, but everytime i spoke with a Legacy player both in person and online the impression they all gave me is that they're usually magic players of old and very social/pleasant folks but not really competitive about the game and that they adore specific decks and cards that they consider fair and interesting, they don't really think about their impact on the meta and i suspect that the reason for this is that in Legacy things work in a different way (even if you release something blatantly broken there are other broken stuff to counterbalance it in a sense)
some of them (the worst imo) have a vendetta of sorts against creatures and just strongly dislike creatures and removal, they consider them childish for some reason, but all of them seemed extremely biased on alot of things (when someone claims that DtT is fine and Goyf is broken well let's say he's not the most objective person in the world...), generally having issues with fair aggro and considering legacy dredge and storm fine(t1 kills both) is odd to say the least
So you're saying that if you saw a modern that was largely non-creature based then that is what would tip you into the 'this is too much like legacy' category? I'm just trying to wrap my head around what it is about legacy that repels some people from it and makes people say 'I don't want modern to be legacy-lite'.
Question : What is it about Legacy that many of you don't like and what would have to change in modern for it to feel like how you feel about legacy? To me personally, Legacy feels like a VERY specific group of cards that cannot and will not be modern legal and the meta that has developed around that specific subset of cards : Brainstorm, Wasteland, Force of Will, Dark Ritual, Top, The Duals, DRS, True-Name, Jitte, Show and Tell, and Entomb/Exhume. In many ways, without these cards it's impossible to have a format 'like legacy', because these cards are largely what defines that format - and in many other ways we have a metagame that has shaken out very similarly to legacy already (strong combos, slightly lacking midrange, strong aggro, no 'real' control). Eventually as power creep happens and the card pool gets bigger and more powerful, we'll inevitably end up with a stronger format - so what makes it feel like legacy to you?
my understanding is that because Legacy is largely unsupported even dying in many parts of the world (i can attend to standard and Modern up to ~10 times a week for sanctioned DCI events if i drive for 20-30 minutes yet to find a legacy event i probably need to fly for 1 hour for instance) , Legacy players want to play their favorite decks/cards in modern instead, it's not that they dislike something (apart from that BLue is not what they used to, aka the 'master color') but rather that they can't play what they like (JTMS,SFM usually)
i don't like legacy so i might not get their feelings on the matter entirely, but everytime i spoke with a Legacy player both in person and online the impression they all gave me is that they're usually magic players of old and very social/pleasant folks but not really competitive about the game and that they adore specific decks and cards that they consider fair and interesting, they don't really think about their impact on the meta and i suspect that the reason for this is that in Legacy things work in a different way (even if you release something blatantly broken there are other broken stuff to counterbalance it in a sense)
some of them (the worst imo) have a vendetta of sorts against creatures and just strongly dislike creatures and removal, they consider them childish for some reason, but all of them seemed extremely biased on alot of things (when someone claims that DtT is fine and Goyf is broken well let's say he's not the most objective person in the world...), generally having issues with fair aggro and considering legacy dredge and storm fine(t1 kills both) is odd to say the least
So you're saying that if you saw a modern that was largely non-creature based then that is what would tip you into the 'this is too much like legacy' category? I'm just trying to wrap my head around what it is about legacy that repels some people from it and makes people say 'I don't want modern to be legacy-lite'.
1. Legacy is VERY heavily skewed toward one color (blue). People don't want that for modern. Hence one of the pillars of the unban Sfm argument is to increase whites meta presence.
2. Legacy is very skewed down the curve, eliminating a large percentage of cards (usually creatues) from seeing play.
3. Legacy has more cards that just prevent the opponent from playing magic (force of will, wasteland, stifle, counterbalance). People want to be able to play magic. Ironically, this has made modern the fastest format (according to the last available data, the fastest by far of standard, legacy, and modern), becuase the best way to reduce interaction from your opponent is to just kill them quicker. Also, this is why blood Moon is such a contested card, and why the turn 4 rule exists, to promote interactivity between players.
EDIT: added how specific cards relate to these points.
Question : What is it about Legacy that many of you don't like and what would have to change in modern for it to feel like how you feel about legacy? To me personally, Legacy feels like a VERY specific group of cards that cannot and will not be modern legal and the meta that has developed around that specific subset of cards : Brainstorm, Wasteland, Force of Will, Dark Ritual, Top, The Duals, DRS, True-Name, Jitte, Show and Tell, and Entomb/Exhume. In many ways, without these cards it's impossible to have a format 'like legacy', because these cards are largely what defines that format - and in many other ways we have a metagame that has shaken out very similarly to legacy already (strong combos, slightly lacking midrange, strong aggro, no 'real' control). Eventually as power creep happens and the card pool gets bigger and more powerful, we'll inevitably end up with a stronger format - so what makes it feel like legacy to you?
my understanding is that because Legacy is largely unsupported even dying in many parts of the world (i can attend to standard and Modern up to ~10 times a week for sanctioned DCI events if i drive for 20-30 minutes yet to find a legacy event i probably need to fly for 1 hour for instance) , Legacy players want to play their favorite decks/cards in modern instead, it's not that they dislike something (apart from that BLue is not what they used to, aka the 'master color') but rather that they can't play what they like (JTMS,SFM usually)
i don't like legacy so i might not get their feelings on the matter entirely, but everytime i spoke with a Legacy player both in person and online the impression they all gave me is that they're usually magic players of old and very social/pleasant folks but not really competitive about the game and that they adore specific decks and cards that they consider fair and interesting, they don't really think about their impact on the meta and i suspect that the reason for this is that in Legacy things work in a different way (even if you release something blatantly broken there are other broken stuff to counterbalance it in a sense)
some of them (the worst imo) have a vendetta of sorts against creatures and just strongly dislike creatures and removal, they consider them childish for some reason, but all of them seemed extremely biased on alot of things (when someone claims that DtT is fine and Goyf is broken well let's say he's not the most objective person in the world...), generally having issues with fair aggro and considering legacy dredge and storm fine(t1 kills both) is odd to say the least
So you're saying that if you saw a modern that was largely non-creature based then that is what would tip you into the 'this is too much like legacy' category? I'm just trying to wrap my head around what it is about legacy that repels some people from it and makes people say 'I don't want modern to be legacy-lite'.
1. Legacy is VERY heavily skewed toward one color (blue). People don't want that for modern.
2. Legacy is very skewed down the curve, eliminating a large percentage of cards (usually creatues) from seeing play.
3. Legacy has more cards that just prevent the opponent from playing magic (force of will, wasteland, stifle, counterbalance). People want to be able to play magic. Ironically, this has made modern the fastest format (according to the last available data, the fastest by far of standard, legacy, and modern), becuase the best way to reduce interaction from your opponent is to just kill them quicker.
I feel like I'm playing more magic in Legacy than I do in Modern even though the turn count of games are similar. You get interesting decisions with Daze and Force of Will. I cannot say the same about games of Modern. Since as you stated, there's no free permission and it is MILES easier to assemble your linear plan than to line up your answers against the format. Jund the ANSWERS deck can't even answer everything in the format and suffers from drawing the wrong half of the deck syndrome against the diverse field.
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Maybe Elves and Amulet Bloom (assuming Bloom can generate 7 mana in one go) get too strong? Elves already has Chord of Calling though.
Keep in mind there was a bunch of other fast mana around when it was banned (Seething Song, Rite of Flame, Cloudpost) that may have exacerbated GSZ's impact. The only decent decks I remember from the first PT using it were Bant aggro (seems like a fair deck to me) and Twelvepost, which isn't around anymore.
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Green Sun's Zenith is weak sauce compared to Chord in most decks, but GSZ allows some decks to go off too fast and that is a big NO NO. Actually sorcery speed might be a positive because you don't get blown out by Dispel...
EDIT: That shuffle effect is also pretty good.
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Staffthink that having access to GSZ will allow elves to do anything dumb though?
You definitely can't suspend with Jace -2. I think his line of thinking is that with -2 you cast AV for free, but... I.... don't... think that's true....
Level 2 in progress...
UUU Merfolk UUU
"Above the waves you may be mighty indeed, but down here you belong to me."
-Empress Galina
UBR Cruel Control UBR
"The essence of every world, every spell, and every thought is power. Nothing else matters, because nothing else exists."
-Nicol Bolas
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I think most here agree with you. Hive Mind is MUCH more of a problem than Titan.
Hehe
That being said I don't think they can hit Blood Moon because of it. Blood Moon is an unfair card, but only to unfair decks in the first place. We need a card like that to keep the greedy decks and stupid wombo combo decks in check. Trust me, I don't really like Blood Moon, but I do so where it was needed. Just making the statement in general as I saw some people complaining about it. You think decks do stupid dumb things now, wait until BM isn't around to police those strategies. Modern may not have a Daze or Force of Will to shut down the stupid stuff, but they do have Blood Moon which, in a way, can fill the same role. Maybe not as early, but the concept of just completely blanking the opponent's entire deck is close enough to be game winning the same way Daze/FoW are.
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I would have no problem with this if all formats were equally playable, but sadly, I can't find Legacy anywhere. And that's the issue with the "Go play another format." Thing some people espouse.
Standard: lol no
Modern: BG/x, UR/x, Burn, Merfolk, Zoo, Storm
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Delver (BUG, RUG, Grixis), Landstill, Depths Combo, Merfolk
Vintage: Dark Times, BUG Fish, Merfolk
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion / Krenko, Mob Boss / Stonebrow, Krosan Hero
Then that's a discussion for the prices thread. I am firmly against the mindset that modern should just be legacy without the reserved list, despite many players assertations that the formats are coming together anyway due to power creep. The ideal, IMO, is to keep all formats as distinct from each other as possible. This partially means keeping popular legacy strategies such as stoneblade out of the format. Of course you are free to disagree, but as someone who plays standard modern legacy and pauper, I like getting different experiences from all of them and would hate modern to be treated as a stepping stone to legacy.
Besides, the more Wizards kills off Legacy, the more people you're going to have wanting Modern to be Legacy Lite.
I personally don't want Modern to be a watered down version of Legacy either, because that sounds pointless. It'd scare off the people who like Modern for what it is, and not actually attract the people who like Legacy for what it is. It'd be one of those "Trying to find a middle ground that ends up pleasing no one." situations.
I'd just like people to stop using the "Go play another format." thing (Which I know he wasn't, but some people in this thread have done repeatedly), because it's just saying "Shut up, your opinion isn't welcome here, get out."
Also, the people who matter are those who affect Wizards bottom line the most, and that's pretty much it. If making Modern Legacy Lite got more people watching/more people in seats, they wouldn't give the slightest damn how much other people like Modern right now, they'd do it in a heartbeat, because they need to make money. And if they didn't want to, I'm sure Hasbro would tell them to anyway.
I'm not actually asking for Modern to become more like Legacy, just for Legacy to EXIST around me. That way no one would have to tell me to go play another format when I want my Legacy fix.
As for MTGO, that's a non-solution as well, since I'd have to spend as much as it cost me to build my deck in the first place to play on there.
Legacy is surprisingly popular given everything working against it. I'm well aware of why some people don't like it, why some people do, and what keeps others out of the format. But "Go play Legacy instead." is a non-argument when there's no Legacy for the person in question to play.
The more Legacy dies, the more people will want Modern to be like Legacy, because they simply have no other alternative. If you want people who like Legacy to stop asking Modern to be Legacy lite, it's in your best interests to convince Wizards to support Legacy so that those people actually have their own format and can stop bugging you guys.
I personally like the differences between Legacy and Modern. I would just like to be able to play both. That doesn't strike me as being particularly unreasonable.
I'm mostly just wanting people to stop using "Play another format" as an 'argument.'
Like he said, each format has its own identity, and I actually quite like that myself, even if I find Standard boring as hell.
That's kind of what I thought too, but loot effects have been around forever (especially Desolate Lighthouse), so I don't think that's what he was referencing. I think he must have thought you could use jace's -2 to suspend/cast from the graveyard (which is confusing on the face, and I had to double check myself).
It's largely about Standard and Painful Truths. He has a little bit about the banlist, almost all of it remarkably levelheaded. He wants a Sword unban and thinks it's reasonable. He'd like a BBE unban too but thinks Jund doesn't need all the help it would give. He isn't QUITE sold on a Summer Bloom ban but wouldn't lament it and sees arguments on both sides (also, that Bloom itself is the card to go).
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Staffthat's what I like about modern, it still has quite a large card pool but is a lot more accessible and has different decks for the most part
I'm fine with having very different ban lists to keep them different formats and have different top decks so modern doesn't essentially turn into a more "legacy lite"
Pretty much. I was hoping the article would be more similar to this: http://www.starcitygames.com/article/29817_Cards-To-Unban-In-Modern-Legacy-And-Vintage.html from last year to see how his mind had changed or remained constant about a lot of these things. I didn't really like Lowry's article much because I felt he didn't really have an over-arching point about the format so much as many small points that I found to contradict one another (like suggesting running more counter magic for combo immediately after noting the prevalence of linear aggro decks and their resiliency against counter magic, or suggesting a Summer Bloom ban after spending a great deal of time shrugging at the turn 4 rule), but one thing I found interesting is that his fairly random Cloudpost suggestion was also present in Chapins article above. In the Chapin article he claims that 12 post decks didn't have a very high win percentage relatively speaking. I wasn't around for 12-post in modern so I couldn't attest to that one way or another, but is that true? And would 12-post without GSZ be substantially more threatening that Tron?
I'm asking because conceptually it seems like 12-post was one of the first things to get the boot, so it seems strange that a Cloudpost unban would seem safe, much less safer than the usual candidates. Is there any merit to this or is it more or less just a silly suggestion?
So you're saying that if you saw a modern that was largely non-creature based then that is what would tip you into the 'this is too much like legacy' category? I'm just trying to wrap my head around what it is about legacy that repels some people from it and makes people say 'I don't want modern to be legacy-lite'.
1. Legacy is VERY heavily skewed toward one color (blue). People don't want that for modern. Hence one of the pillars of the unban Sfm argument is to increase whites meta presence.
2. Legacy is very skewed down the curve, eliminating a large percentage of cards (usually creatues) from seeing play.
3. Legacy has more cards that just prevent the opponent from playing magic (force of will, wasteland, stifle, counterbalance). People want to be able to play magic. Ironically, this has made modern the fastest format (according to the last available data, the fastest by far of standard, legacy, and modern), becuase the best way to reduce interaction from your opponent is to just kill them quicker. Also, this is why blood Moon is such a contested card, and why the turn 4 rule exists, to promote interactivity between players.
EDIT: added how specific cards relate to these points.
http://magic.wizards.com/en/MTGO/articles/archive/magic-online/year-of-modern-flashbacks-2015-12-14
Seems like those editions are regarded by Wizards as being part of the Modern continuum and their Modern status is clearly part of this draft's theme.
I feel like I'm playing more magic in Legacy than I do in Modern even though the turn count of games are similar. You get interesting decisions with Daze and Force of Will. I cannot say the same about games of Modern. Since as you stated, there's no free permission and it is MILES easier to assemble your linear plan than to line up your answers against the format. Jund the ANSWERS deck can't even answer everything in the format and suffers from drawing the wrong half of the deck syndrome against the diverse field.